Don't miss the announcement about the California recall.

[Skinner]

It's right here...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=announcement&id=23

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

1. About damn time.

Harumph.

:D

[Andy_Stephenson]

2. Amen Skinner!

Amen.

[jiacinto]

3. Thank you

nt

[Susang]

4. Skinner, You Rock!

I couldn't have phrased it better myself if I tried. Thanks for putting your 2 cents in on this and stopping the madness! :loveya:

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

5. As one who has put blood sweat and tears into this

my heartfelt appreciation at the proactive stance against mutiny.

[Classical_Liberal]

6. I think it is immature to say that someone who doesn't

like scandalmongering is engaging in right wing spin. Aren't moderators suppose to be above that sort of demonization of people?

[salin]

12. Often actions and words have unintentional consequences

as in : supporting rw messages...

as in : depressing the vote - through discouraging participation

as in : discouraging those on the ground who are working on GOTV efforts who have been stymied by media coverage which has been even more silent in this race due to a very unique conflict of interest of many media outlets to one of the candidates, combined with starpower that gives FREE positive media coverage (interviews etc.) that is not available to the sitting governor nor to other candidates.

These may not be the intention of the post - but are some of the results.

The election is three days before. We had a brief shut down before the midterms - this is similar to that - not some "immature response".

Remember what is going on is a growing pattern of attempts to usurp the democratic process in this country by a radicalized rightwing GOP. Being mindful that we are not playing into their script is valid three days before this election.

[Classical_Liberal]

18. scandal mongering can have those consequeces too

by making us look over the top.

[Skinner]

13. No, we're not above this sort of thing.

If you want to take a stand against the alleged injustice being perpetrated against Arnold, then write a letter to the editor or something. But don't do it on this board.

I happen to consider the injustice against the democratically elected Governor of California to be significantly worse than any of the stuff being thrown at that groping nazi-apologist.

[Cheswick2.0]

15. heh heh ....... you said groping

I agree whole heartedly, he is a groping Nazi apologist.

[Classical_Liberal]

16. What if someone advocated shooting Arnold

and I objected?

[Skinner]

23. Oh, for crying out loud.

Nobody is advocating shooting Arnold. If they did, you have my permission to object.

And also hit the alert link, because it's against the rules.

[Classical_Liberal]

26. hitting alert doesn't have much of an affect on any violation

of the rules, if you take the wrong position on things.

[ParanoidPat]

35. If you don't like it.....

.....there are a couple of million other sites you can go to! :evilgrin:
As far as the 'wrong position' on things goes, it seems you would know first hand. ;-)

More grateful thanks from a real Californian! :toast:

[Classical_Liberal]

40. I don't like it, and I am not going anywhere

.

[Booberdawg]

43. That's bullshit

For record, the message is pretty clear that the attitudes and positions you have been advocating and promoting on the California recall are not welcome until after the election.

I've been following many of the same threads you have in the last couple days. Someone presenting you with truth based on your own words doesn't make it a violation. Your suggestion that violations are based on the position you take is just bullshit.

[Classical_Liberal]

50. accusing people of being a disruptor is

I don't care about this. It is just a pigpile and apparently approved, with the blessing from above.

[Name removed]

70. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[blondeatlast]

91. You seem to have a language disconnect. Let me help.

DEMOCRATIC: in this case, of the Democratic party.

UNDERGROUND: unofficial, not sanctioned. "Operating under the radar," so to speak.

Others that may be of some help:
Not a public forum: The First Amendment doesn't apply here. I'm good with it, as are thousands of others.

Hit the road, Jack: If you aren't happy, move on. I'll be happy to help if needed! :evilgrin:

[salin]

29. no advocation of violence, or even violating indivdiuals' privacy

has ever been tolerated here. Things get shut down quicker than you can snap your fingers. What a silly question.

[Classical_Liberal]

30. Do you think Bustumante supporters are traitors too

like Cheswick just suggested. Isn't that an insinuation that someone is a distruptor in your view?

[Skinner]

32. You are putting words in Cheswick's mouth.

Nobody called Bustamante a traitor.

I consider this matter closed.

[salin]

38. I read it as for those

who advocate "Yes" on recall. Thus if one were to advocate others to vote "Yes" on recall, then vote for Bustemante... not a "traitor" perhaps - but certainly doing the rw's bidding by supporting an effort that is part of a growing GOP strategy of subverting election results. It is the "Yes" on recall that is the problem.

I have never seen a beef with a non-complicated call for "No, on recall, Yes on Bustamante".

Perhaps sending what were read by many as mixed messages regarding that "No" on recall part has led to some of the more critical posts.

[Classical_Liberal]

39. I think you are all spoiling for a fight

People have been flaming Bustumante people today, but who cares.

[salin]

45. What?

Did you not read what I read? Come on.

THERE IS A BIG DIFFERENCE -

1. YES on recall, then yes Bustamante;

vs.

2. No on recall, Yes on Bustamante;

Do you not see the difference in these positions? Now which position is getting flamed? Only one is getting flamed.

[Classical_Liberal]

48. I don't see any yes yes advocates

amd haven't.

[salin]

54. I said this yesterday... and will repeat myself

in my opinion the "vote yes" then "Vote Arianna" caught flack (I stayed out at that time).

THEN

the "Davis should resign" on and on again - and being down right contentious and nasty to those who pointed out that the recall, once certified, was a fact - no resignation did anything but give the RW on a platter what they desired - overthrowing an elected official.

Making the point wasn't the problem - it was going on and on with disinformation - and when called on it -asking others (who provided links to other conversations) to "prove it" , while not being willing to prove your contention that a resignation ended the recall (I don't have to prove it... but it makes sense to me so I am going to keep advocating for it - seemed to be the tone).

This got the ire - especially of Californians working hard - and realizing that with the more recent numbers - getting dems out to the polls in face of defeatest attitudes (such as the sentiment above) was going to be exceptionally hard.

SO perhaps this was all innocent misunderstanding of your message (though the above is not a misrepresentation, by the way), but perhaps you might analyze the style/behavior which fed into many people reading this as a switch and bait way of supporting the recall.

If only one or two people read your series of posts this way - that would be one thing - but many seem to have read them the way I described. Perhaps clarity of message might be an issue?

[salin]

51. er... who is spoiling for a fight?

on this thread... Paraphrase of just this little subthread:

"You (admin) are immature" (about this three day rule)

(escalate)

"What if someone advocated shooting Arnold" (already against the rules)

"Hitting alert doesn't work" (re: implied favoratism on responding)

(escalate)

"You are calling me a traitor" (big exageration of posts)



So salin must ask... WE are spoiling for a fight?

[Classical_Liberal]

52. There is favoritism

The whole annoncement explains many things about what has been going on here.

[salin]

55. not wise to keep insulting

the mods and admins.

[Skinner]

56. Let's stop this.

All of you. Thanks.

[salin]

58. just saw that below and appologized

am backing away now...

[Skinner]

59. Thanks. (nt)

[Cheswick2.0]

14. oh come now

you have been promoting this recall effort for days. Claiming to be for for Arianna or Bustamante is only a way of trying to get people to vote yes on the recall... IMO of course.

PS....Skinner isn't a moderator.

[Classical_Liberal]

27. Bustumante supporters are traitors now?

so typical of the way this ugly board has become. Arianna dropped.

[Cheswick2.0]

37. only if they are trying to promote a yes on the recall

No on recall yes on Bustamante is fine with me.

[Classical_Liberal]

41. who is trying to promote it?

? Nobody!

[Cheswick2.0]

42. sorry, just wanted to let you know I am not playing

this senseless game with you tonight. You know as well as I do who is "promoting it", end of discussion on my part.

[Classical_Liberal]

44. I have no idea who is promoting yes on recall

and that is what leaves me absolutely baffled, and I am no newbie.

[Skinner]

53. OK, Let's stop this mini flame war.

That goes for all of you.

[salin]

57. I appologize

it is generally out of character for me. I am backing away... sorry, Skinner.

[Booberdawg]

60. Perhaps it is your relentless misinformation campaign on Davis and

relentless bashing of him that gave EVERYONE that impression. Not to mention calling on Davis to RESIGN. That doesn't sound like promoting NO on the recall to me, excuse me all to hell.

I am baffled that you are baffled. This seems more like a circle jerk to me.

[Skinner]

61. Please.

Let's give it a rest.

[Booberdawg]

62. Sorry - just now saw your posts

[salin]

Thank you!

The time for freeflying discourse is most of the time. But right now, this just works to depress votes, discourage those on the ground trying to get GOTV efforts finetuned, and even if unintentional work to support the usurptation of democracy delivered increasingly across the country by the radical GOP.

[Spazito]

7. Thank you!

*

[Cheswick2.0]

8. kick

thank you, I was just about to start feeling cheap for telling the truth about Arnie Schartzawhatsis.

[bluestateguy]

9. May I make another suggestion

A moritorium on new members from Monday through Wed. That should limit disruptors.

[jiacinto]

10. Bad idea

nt

[bluestateguy]

36. You'll see why it's necessary if we lose on Tues, or in 2004

Disruptors signing up after the election returns are in just to get a few potshots in, wreaking havoc on the board. If we lose next November it could be even worse. A 48 hour ban on new memberships won't kill anyone.

[Booberdawg]

46. Ain't gonna happen

Mods will whack 'em anyway. They've got their runnin' shoes on now.

[VolcanoJen]

11. HOORAY!!!!!

Thank you for that, Admin. We needed it.

FIGHT THE POWER!!! RESIST THE ATTEMPTS TO OVERTURN THE RESULTS OF YET ANOTHER POPULAR ELECTION!!!

[Catherine Vincent]

17. Thank you and AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Wonder if former republican will respond? LOL!

[Skinner]

24. He's been tombstoned.

So he won't respond.

[Karenina]

49. Ahhhh....

Music to my ears!

[Oracle]

82. Best news I've heard all day. I got tired of dealing with the fuck

[kentuck]

19. They may be able to sell that crap someplace else....

But the people at DU aren't buying it. By the way, since when is telling the truth "scandal-mongering"??

[salin]

33. When Arnie's spokesman says so...

get with the program! At least thats what they said at the press conference. Get with the program, kentuck! ;-)

[Room101]

20. About time,

:loveya:

[intheozone]

21. As a Californian, I say THANK YOU

and give this great big :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick:

[madmax]

22. Kick

:kick:

[CatWoman]

25. Fucking "A"

:kick:

[shance]

28. We love you Skinner, (oh yes we dewwwwww)..........*****

Thanks for the support.

We need all the help out here we can get!!

[Booberdawg]

31. Thank GAWD!! I'm so sick of Republican talking points from liberals

and their bending over backwards to defend a lewd and obnoxious GROPER. Jeezus H fucking Christ on a stick and Holy Nipples of Mary, I feel like I've been in a freeper zone the last couple days. And I'm not going to forget that either.

[rock]

34. "If you want right wing spin,"

"turn on the radio or TV!" (Snicker, snicker) You rock, skinner (and I don't say that lightly).

[sangha]

47. Thank you

I know where I can go if I want rw spin

[VolcanoJen]

63. Kick!!

:dem:

[Booberdawg]

64. kick

[in_cog_ni_to]

65. Thank You!

That was getting a tad OLD! The site IS DEMOCRATICUnderground for a reason.

[curse10]

66. Yeah!

The Californians on this board shouldn't have had to put up with it for as long as they had to :-)

[Eloriel]

67. Well, this deserves a kick

Esp. so others can celebrate the ever so well deserved tombstoning.

Eloriel

[roguevalley]

69. This isn't, for me, about candidates. This is about the fundamentals

of our democracy. Davis was lawfully elected. Anyone
who has signed on to take advantage of this recall is
anti-democratic to me. This is about the future
stability of our democratic process and all the limpet
fish who have latched onto this ride are bums in my
book. I don't care if they are the Pope. They are
hurting our country. $9bn in enron cash is at stake
here. Hope you don't lose, California, or you are
REALLY going to lose.

Its ironic that Nazism has entered this race because
of Schwartzennegger. How appropriate.

[Woodstock]

68. AMEN to what Skinner said

:kick:

[salin]

71. kick

:kick:

[Individualist]

72. kick

[ElsewheresDaughter]

73. THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU!!!

[loudnclear]

74. Hats off to Skinner!!!

I couldn't agree more.

[not systems]

75. Right on!!!

It is great to have a no spin zone like DU!

[Capn Sunshine]

76. Fu***n' A

Skinner, Your vigilance against the spin campaigns is awesome.

You saved me a LOT of trouble questioning peoples motivations for posting. We all know a certain set of paid spinmeisters have appeared lately and it's nice to knock the props out from under them.

I expect with all the telemarketers out of work we'll se more of this...

[rocktivity]

77. "If you support this ridiculous power-grab

against the democratically elected Governor of California, then you should do all of us a favor..."

and read this:
Arnold Unplugged - It's hasta la vista to $9 billion if the Governator is selected

"It turns out that Schwarzenegger knowingly joined the hush-hush encounter as part of a campaign to sabotage a Davis-Bustamante plan to make Enron and other power pirates then ravaging California pay back the $9 billion in illicit profits they carried off."


rocknation

[jab105]

78. Woo Hoo!!!!!!!!!!!

Go Gray go!

[shanti]

79. muchas gracias, skinner!

:thumbsup:

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

80. Kick

[VOX]

81. Yes, yes and yes! Thanks mucho, Skinner...

The number of "sos-and-so's not really so bad" posts have been infuriating and wholly ignorant of the stakes in California, not to mention the national implications involved.

Thanks so much for laying it out, once and for all.

:toast:

[Q]

83. A reminder that...

...just because someone has 'liberal' in their handle doesn't make them so.

- Also...a reminder to read Greg Palast's stuff on Enron and the recall. An excerpt:

ARNOLD UNPLUGGED
It's hasta la vista to $9 billion if the Governator is selected

by Greg Palast
Friday October 3, 2003


"...Here's the story Arnold doesn't want you to hear. The biggest single
threat to Ken Lay and the electricity lords is a private lawsuit filed
last year under California's unique Civil Code provision 17200, the
"Unfair Business Practices Act." This litigation, heading to trial now
in Los Angeles, would make the power companies return the $9 billion
they filched from California electricity and gas customers.

It takes real cojones to bring such a suit. Who's the plaintiff taking
on the bad guys? Cruz Bustamante, Lieutenant Governor and reluctant
leading candidate against Schwarzenegger.

Now follow the action. One month after Cruz brings suit, Enron's Lay
calls an emergency secret meeting in L.A. of his political
buck-buddies, including Arnold. Their plan, to undercut Davis
(according to Enron memos) and "solve" the energy crisis -- that is,
make the Bustamante legal threat go away.

How can that be done? Follow the trail with me.

While Bustamante's kicking Enron butt in court, the Davis
Administration is simultaneously demanding that George Bush's energy
regulators order the $9 billion refund. Don't hold your breath:
Bush's Federal Energy Regulatory Commission is headed by a guy proposed
by Ken Lay.

But Bush's boys on the commission have a problem. The evidence against
the electricity barons is rock solid: fraudulent reporting of sales
transactions, megawatt "laundering," fake power delivery scheduling and
straight out conspiracy (including meetings in hotel rooms).

So the Bush commissioners cook up a terrific scheme: charge the
companies with conspiracy but offer them, behind closed doors, deals in
which they have to pay only two cents on each dollar they filched.

Problem: the slap-on-the-wrist refunds won't sail if the Governor of
California won't play along. Solution: Re-call the Governor.

New Problem: the guy most likely to replace Davis is not Mr.
Musclehead, but Cruz Bustamante, even a bigger threat to the power
companies than Davis. Solution: smear Cruz because -- heaven forbid!
he took donations from Injuns (instead of Ken Lay).

The pay-off? Once Arnold is Governor, he blesses the sweetheart
settlements with the power companies. When that happens, Bustamante's
court cases are probably lost. There aren't many judges who will let a
case go to trial to protect a state if that a governor has already
allowed the matter to be "settled" by a regulatory agency..."

[NNN0LHI]

84. That is why I stay here! Thanks Skinner n/t

[DemExpat]

85. Me, too! I love reading all viewpoints, that's why I come here,

but sometimes it gets crazy around here....hurray for this, and for the new rules too, btw....

:kick:

DemEx

[BevHarris]

86. Exactly -- if this one succeeds, watch for more.

Look, not to beat the same old drum, but you know I'm obsessed with that little subject of mine. These memos, from Diebold, that were the subject of such a fuss --

Some of them were talking about building recall functions into all the states. They were doing surveys to find out how many states have recall provisions like California. Then they were rewriting whole swaths of the program to get ready for that.

I say this because it could mean there are plans for more power grabs using the strategy of recalls, if this one works.

This is one more example of a group of people whose culture is to do end-runs around the rules. The power grab uses every means available:

biased redistricting
voter registration dirty tricks
unauditable and insecure vote counting
unethical and outrageous recalls

I'm delighted that the Dems came out in favor of a paper trail. We've got a LONG way to go, folks, because as soon as we stop one erosion of the integrity of our democracy, another one springs up.

Bev

[Skinner]

87. I hope you don't expect me to extend this rule to BBV.

Because I think reasonable people -- even reasonable liberal people -- can disagree on that issue.

[BevHarris]

88. Skinner, I have no idea what you're talking about, actually

"I hope you don't expect me to extend this rule to BBV."

My post was about using the strategy of a recall as a power grab, and that it is part of a picture of end-runs around the rules that extend to voter registration, redistricting, vote tallying, and after-election retaliation.

Bev

[Skinner]

92. I misunderstood.

I am sorry.

[BevHarris]

93. No problem. I guess I didn't do a very good job with my headline

I went back and reread it and saw that I didn't get to the point very quickly.

By the way, in my interview published recently in Salon.com I said I didn't agree with the whole point of the recall. At that time I had no idea what the position was of DU or anyone else, but in my opinion, the recall is not so very different from the attempt to impeach Clinton. We have a group of people who seem to be willing to win by any means necessary, and if they lose, they try overturn the decision by any means necessary.

This cannot be allowed, if we are to remain a society of law abiding citizens, governed in a democratic way.

Bev

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

89. Kick

[rasputin1952]

90. Here' a little kick from Nebraska!...

:kick:

[newyawker99]

94. A kick from Brooklyn NY!!

:kick:

[Loyal]

96. Brooklyn represent!

Roni :loveya:

[Loyal]

95. Thank you!

n/t

[Dr Fate]

97. Agreed. KICK.

!!!

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

98. kick

[John_H]

99. Why not make this obvious and often used rethug spin tactic go away

forever?

[VolcanoJen]

100. Kick!!!

:dem:

[Booberdawg]

101. kick

[newyawker99]

102. another one!!

:kick:

[KittyWampus]

103. Kick

,,,

[bloom]

104. kick

:thumbsup:

:kick:

[Chovexani]

105. Amen!

Skinner you rule! :kick:

[newyawker99]

106. kick

[Must_B_Free]

107. YES ROX!

stop the power grab for Gonad the Barvarian

[Booberdawg]

108. kick

[newyawker99]

109. another one

:kick:

[kaitykaity]

110. kick

:kick:

[meisje]

111. how democratic of you

irony?

[VOX]

112. Bend it like Beckham...kick!!

Go! :kick: