Help with this freeper claim!

[Nikki Stone 1]

Talked to a freeper tonight and he claimed that there had to be a declared insurrection before Federal troops could be sent into NOLA. That the governor had to turn over power to the Fed (due to this insurrection) to get troops.

He also claimed that the other states offering to send their national guard troops could have just sent them without waiting for permission from anyone at the Federal level.

Are there any links to really useful information to debunk this?

[TrueAmerican]

1. Federal Troops

can do securtiy detail for such things as food conveys. They can also do rescue missions, levee repair, construction, truck driving, provide medical care, repair runways, fly cargo planes into airport, food drops, and etc, etc, etc. They just can't do law enforcement work.

[craigolemiss]

2. There are plenty of places that can help

With tin foil hat removal

http://www.laurelwoodhospital.com/programs.htm

This person has been reading too many milita magazines and needs to let the Soldier of Fortune subscription run out before logical thought can be used.

[The Traveler]

6. If he actually READ Soldier of Fortune

rather than masturbate over the weapons advertisements he would already know better.
:evilgrin:

[havocmom]

7. He shoots... He scores. The crowd goes wild!

The Travler! The Travler! The Travler! The Travler!

Thank you kindly for a much needed laugh.

[The Traveler]

16. Any time, havocmom

Well, maybe not. To be honest, my sense of humor has been taking a vaction lately. Dark, my mood. Darker my rage.

[havocmom]

20. Know that dark rage

I used to write some comedy stuff. My audience is getting annoyed with me of late...

[Cleita]

12. LOL

I read "Soldier of Fortune". I have for twenty five years as long as I don't have to pay for it.

[The Traveler]

17. My policy EXACTLY! **grin** (n/t)

[havocmom]

21. Gads, I love it, and your profile! LOL

Love it when that silly notion that libs are all soft and helpless.

The folks where I live are half afraid of the 'lock & load liberal' who moved into town ;)

[The Traveler]

22. OK, so I have a few issues

:(

Seriously, I encourage all liberals to become familiar with the use of firearms. For their protection and the protection of the weak, as well as the protection of those strong enough to eschew their use. God forbid we should ever need them.

Never underestimate the willingness of evil men to harm the innocent.

[havocmom]

25. agree

:thumbsup:

[xray s]

3. I call bullshit

The govenor has not turned over power to the Feds, and yet there are troops in NOLA.

How fucking stupid are these people?

[TrueAmerican]

4. Good Answer

great answer.

[CascadeTide]

5. yes, basically everything that was done on Friday

could have been done on Tuesday so there's no excuse.

[blue sky at night]

8. you know the Bu$H administration's plea that they were following the LAW..

is a load of SHIT. Since when did these bastards do anything by the book, or abide by any "law" that got in their way? We have at least a two page laundry list of violations these fucks have committed, why the posturing now? They are the most Lawless Bunch of Thugs ever to hold the office, it doesn't work both ways, sorry. They have soiled their hands in Blood since taking over, and it appears it won't end anytime soon.

[Erika]

9. He/she is wrong

Once there was breech damaage, the Feds were responsible.

[Nikki Stone 1]

10. Can you explain how this works?

I know I'll be asked detail by detail.

[walldude]

11. Here's a link for you

It's the Department Of Defense so your freeper won't be able to argue with it...

http://www.dod.gov/transcripts/2005/tr20050901-3843.html

[Nikki Stone 1]

34. What exactly am I looking for in this press briefing? That the request

was made or that troops had been in there since Sunday?

[steely]

13. I read something like that recently too

[Cleita]

14. Who will be asking you detail by detail?

A hint perhaps?

[Nikki Stone 1]

35. Someone with a military background who read the NYT article yesterday

He's actually a civilian employee of a military service.

[thoughtanarchist]

19. Once the federal state of emergency was declared...

it was fema all the way. fema was in charge of coordinating efforts and directing the movement of resources.

Unfortunately, the top officials of fema were political appointees sitting in cushy compensation jobs for helping *'s campaign. They did not take their jobs seriously and did not know how to do them even if they were serious.

That's why -- when Gov Blanco called in James Witt, who directed fema under Clinton and actually knew what he was doing -- he had a few words for the current "doin a hell of a job" Brownie:

"According to the source, Witt told Brown, “Mike, you’re going to do your job, and I’m going to make you do your job. And I’m going to show you how to do your job.”"

http://www.hillnews.com/thehill/export/TheHill/News/Frontpage/090705/witt.html

[rfkrfk]

39. Blanco is in commnd, Fema is more like a matchmaker

Blanco is commander-in-chief of the National Guard
units in her state, plus the state police, etc.

You might find this interesting...

from
'State of Louisiana Emenrgency Operations Plan supplement 1C'

http://www.ohsep.louisiana.gov/plans/EOPSheltersuppleme...

pdf page 10, {document page 5}, Items A-1, A-5
Governor. 1.Proclaim a state of emergency.
......... 5.Request Federal/State Government assistance as needed.

{my comment, this a-1 would be the 'state' version of a state
of emergency, the 'federal' emergency offers loans and
allows some agencies to repond to state requests for help}

pdf page 14, {document page 9}, Item D,
The primary means of hurricane evacuation will be personal vehicles.
However, school and municipal buses and, where available, specialized vehicles will be used to transport those hurricane evacuees who do not have transportation.

[Extend a Hand]

15. Homeland Security National Response Plan

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=2070176

[Nikki Stone 1]

36. Very helpful, thank you

....

[ShockediSay]

18. As I recall

any governor can call out the national guard. Some southern governor (Orville Faubus? George Wallace?) did just that when there was a civilian movement to integrate the schools.

This was reversed when the President (Dwight Eisenhauer?) FEDERALIZED the national guard, thus removing them from the control of the state governor, and thereby put the guard under the command of the federal government.

Any help, please feel free to jump in - - I was very young at the time and don't pretend to have the most definitive recollection.

[GoodSpud]

24. Little Rock 1957

The AK National Guard initially kept black kids out (9-4-57).

They were removed on 9-20-57 by the Governor.

On 9-23-57 Little Rock Police escorted 9 black students in to Central High School. A mob of 1000 outside the school grew restless and the children were removed from the school. Also on 9-23-57 Eisenhower issued a proclamation (# 3204) which essentially states that an insurrection exists in Little Rock.
PDF of original is available at: http://www.eisenhower.archives.gov/dl/LittleRock/Presreleaseproclamation3204Sept2357pg1.pdf

On 9-24-57 the Mayor of Little Rock asked Eisenhower for federal troops to maintain order outside the school. 1000 troops from the 101st Airborne were sent in and the AK National Guard was federalized. Eisenhower issues executive order to allow enforcement of court decisions using Federal troops under the proclamation of the prior day. Text of address to the nation available here:
http://historymatters.gmu.edu/d/6335/



On 9-25-57 the students were escorted into the school by Army Troops.

Time line of events is available here: http://www.centralhigh57.org/1957-58.htm


TDP

[ShockediSay]

31. Thanks. Impressive.

Glad somebody has this stuff at their fingertips.

[NewJeffCT]

44. was it a temporary federalization, or permanent?

as our state (Connecticut) is going through a dispute over the removal of the Air National Guard on recommendation from BRAC. BRAC said to close our ANG, and the state's argument (from our moderate Republican governor and our Democratic state Attorney Gen'l) is that the ANG is specifically under the governor's command.

[oddballNTN]

23. I have been lurking for way too long

I am a Government instructor at a University in an area that is majoritively Republican. I dare not say what University or I will be risking my job... thus the reason I am a lurker. If I am caught here, I am fried.

I am going to be honest with you guys up front, so you can kill me now if you so choose. I am 70% democrat and 30% republican. I am a centrist so I might not be welcome on your site. I have voted a straight Democratic ticket every year except for the last. I voted for George Bush because I could not vote for John Kerry with his voting record. I apologize. I am not a George Bush fan by any stretch of the imagination.

As for the answer to your question... the Freeper is wrong. Although he is 100% correct in the first paragraph, he is incorrect in the second. The other states could not send their National Guard without the governor's approval. Governor Blanco, while I admire her spunk, screwed the pooch on this one.

Now we need to decide what to do. I hope I am wrong, but I think we are about to eat major dirt. Running around screaming is not going to help us. We need to regroup and develop our strategy to prevent the dirt from sticking to us.

If you want somebody that will curse, scream, and run around in circles behaving as a lunatic, then you need to ban me now. If you want somebody that will actually do some work to further the Democratic party, then you will not. The choice is obviously yours to make.

[havocmom]

26. Welcome aboard.

Looking forward to reading more from you.

As for voting for bush due to Kerry's voting record... save that for another day. But repentant converts back to the fold are welcome by me. Good to have you here.

[oddballNTN]

27. Thank you havocmon. :)

n/t

[oddballNTN]

29. Time to brainstorm

to turn this around.

OK guys... for starters... You are not going to like what I am going to say.

The American people are disgusted with us at the moment. While I understand the reasons we came out throwing punches as we did, it was poor timing. Why do we not have leaders that understand the value of timing? It appeared, no matter the points that we made, that we were taking political advantage while people were dying. Frankly we were and they saw through it. Americans are no longer idiots that watch the nightly news and believe what they hear. They read, discuss, blog, and spread the word at the proverbial water cooler. They now think and evaluate for themselves.

I adore Nancy Pelosi except for a few points that I will get into after this crisis has passed. Do you really think the average American identifies with Nancy? Is she truly what we need representing us in front of the camera? Is the average American going to listen to Nancy? While she makes valid points, do these points mirror the average American's concerns? Or does Nancy appear to these people as extreme? Do you believe they listen to her when she is in front of the camera placing the blame of Katrina on bush? Or are they automatically suspicious of her motives, no matter how truthful they may be? Do they suddenly jump to bush's side because Ms. Extreme is out pumping the politcal machine? What about Howard Dean?

Do you not understand why we are losing? It's not the Christian right and the moral majority. It wasn't or isn't a vote on the sanctity of marriage although you are falling for THEIR lies proporting it to be such. The average American does not care about these things. The average American wants to vote for someone with whom they identify. Screeching, accusing, pointing fingers, twisting words, and politics as usual is not what appeals to them. They want to vote for somebody they feel they can trust. Now what are we going to do about it?

[tkmorris]

33. I don't believe you

First of all, in your original response you stated that the Freeper was incorrect in his second paragraph because, as you said, other states could not send troops without Governor Blanco's approval.

Trouble is, the Freeper never said anything about Gov Blanco's approval in that regard. What he said was that they did not need FEDERAL approval. Honest mistake? Perhaps, but I really don't think someone who teaches government would be lackadaisical about details like this, since it's the stuff you live and breathe.

Secondly, you claim to have voted for Bush in 2004 due to Kerry's voting record. Now it's true that Kerry was painted as "the most liberal senator in Washington" and so on, but as a student of such things you would know better. Kerry is in fact quite moderate, more so than most of his primary challengers. Which is why I didn't vote for him myself in those primaries.

Third. You move directly to explaining why "we" lose elections. Of course your reasoning is that we lose due to, what was it, oh yes "Screeching, accusing, pointing fingers, twisting words, and politics as usual". Which is of course EXACTLY the game plan out of the White House right now to safe their bacon. Accuse the Dems of being screechy, whiny, politics as usual blame game players.

I'm not even going into your argument that Blanco needed to turn over control to the Feds in order for Bush to authorize guard troops. It's patently false and if you really do teach government you know that. I won't explain to you why, it'd be more fun to see if you can work it all out on your own. Note this though, guard troops have been employed and authorized by the office of the President before to deal with emergencies without such requests being made of the state. Within the past year in fact.

Why do you think they are desperately trying NOT to admit they made that demand? Because they know how bad it looks of course. They could have responded quicker but chose instead to try to play a CYA game with Blanco. It didn't work and now they are trying to pretend it didn't happen. If they really had been hogtied by this lack of Blanco cooperation they would be saying so (in EXACTLY the sane carefully scripted terms) from every podium on the east coast. No, instead they are trying to claim that Blanco didn't request Federal aid at all, which is so easily dismissed it smacks of desperation. Kind of odd they'd make up an easily disprovable lie when the truth itself exonerated them, don't you think?

[Tari]

37. I don't believe you either.

You are attempting to plant seeds of doubt about those dems that actually speak the truth. Ms. Extreme? Screeching? Twisting words?

WE were taking political advantage while people were dying? No, we weren't. Where was bush? There's tons of information on this site as to what he was & WAS NOT doing while people died.

"The American people are disgusted with us at the moment." That statement I do believe. The us to which you refer is not us.

Is majoritively a word?

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

28. The posse comitatus act can be waived by executive order

as I understand it (Posse Comitatus dating from the post Civil War period barring Federal soldiers from occupying the south to supervise elections and being interpreted to prohibit any involvement by U.S. military in affairs of the States). I believe it can be overridden by the U.S. President in cases of civil disturbance or other national emergency affecting the breakdown in law and order. George H.W. Bush sent in the U.S. Marines to the Los Angeles riots during his Presidency. Dwight D. Eisenhower sent in the 101st Airborne to oppose the Arkansas National Guard when the latter tried to stop black school children from integrating a school in Little Rock during the 1950s.

The exception is embodied in 10 U.S. Code Sec. 332:

Sec. 332. Use of militia and armed forces to enforce Federal authority

"Whenever the President considers that unlawful obstructions,
combinations, or assemblages, or rebellion against the authority of
the United States, make it impracticable to enforce the laws of the
United States in any State or Territory by the ordinary course of
judicial proceedings, he may call into Federal service such of the
militia of any State, and use such of the armed forces, as he
considers necessary to enforce those laws or to suppress the
rebellion."

As all law and order in New Orleans had broken down including the police and the court system, I would contend that the President had the authority to order in the U.S. military, whether or not the Governor had federalized the National Guard. Indeed, Governor Faubus in Arkansas actually was defying federal authority in calling on his own Arkansas National Guard to prevent desegregation and Eisenhowever sent the U.S. Army down to Little Rock.

[A-Possum]

30. Guard from other states--see this article

Congress Likely to Probe Guard Response-Sept 3

New Mexico Gov. Bill Richardson offered Louisiana Gov. Kathleen Blanco help from his state's National Guard last Sunday, the day before Hurricane Katrina hit Louisiana. Blanco accepted, but paperwork needed to get the troops en route didn't come from Washington until late Thursday.

Also, read the NYT for what was going on in Washington during that interval that the guard didn't come:

Political Issues Snarled Plans for Troop Aid

[Nikki Stone 1]

38. Your second link was the article the freeper was quoting.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/09/national/nationalspecial/09military.html?hp&ex=1126324800&en=905e7a862e1c0023&ei=5094&partner=homepage

" To seize control of the mission, Mr. Bush would have had to invoke the Insurrection Act, which allows the president in times of unrest to command active-duty forces into the states to perform law enforcement duties. But decision makers in Washington felt certain that Ms. Blanco would have resisted surrendering control, as Bush administration officials believe would have been required to deploy active-duty combat forces before law and order had been re-established.

While combat troops can conduct relief missions without the legal authority of the Insurrection Act, Pentagon and military officials say that no active-duty forces could have been sent into the chaos of New Orleans on Wednesday or Thursday without confronting law-and-order challenges."

This is what I need help with.

[smurfygirl]

32. i'm just bookmarking....

don't mind me.

:hide:

[Nikki Stone 1]

40. National Guard vs Federal Troops??

National Guard

The LA National Guard was under the control of Blanco. Many of them were in Iraq so she didn't have enough troops to handle the disaster. Other states offered their national guard troops. WHAT IS THE PROCEDURE for one governor to send his/her state guard troops to another? Does the governor in need have to request them? From whom? And, does Federal paperwork need to be filed? If the Fed has nothing to do with the process, why couldn't the troops be sent right away?

Federal Troops

Why is there such confusion over the "request" for Federal Troops? Does the president need to be given full control over a situation for those troops to be sent in?

[B Calm]

41. The declared insurrection form was a ploy for Bush to have a federal

takeover of New Orleans! But, only because he wanted to award rebuilding contracts to the people who put him in the White House.

[Nikki Stone 1]

42. He did that anyway. Halliburton got the rebuilding contracts

I am concerned about the legalities of this thing. I have been reading all the links and am still trying to put together a coherent argument.

[B Calm]

46. With Bush it's all about about pointing your finger and placing blame

on anyone but himself. Why did Bush make this request? If help from the federal government depends on accepting a request from George, the appearance is made to look like putting the pressure on the one who needs help, thus the blame game begins!

[Mutley]

43. Try this.

It's from the WH web page so he can't argue with it. It was posted on August 27, 2005, before the storm hit.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2005/08/20050827-1.html

<snip>

The President's action authorizes the Department of Homeland Security, Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA), to coordinate all disaster relief efforts which have the purpose of alleviating the hardship and suffering caused by the emergency on the local population, and to provide appropriate assistance for required emergency measures, authorized under Title V of the Stafford Act, to save lives, protect property and public health and safety, or to lessen or avert the threat of a catastrophe in the parishes

<snip>

Specifically, FEMA is authorized to identify, mobilize, and provide at its discretion, equipment and resources necessary to alleviate the impacts of the emergency. Debris removal and emergency protective measures, including direct Federal assistance, will be provided at 75 percent Federal funding.

[NewJeffCT]

45. great - i was just about to post that, too!

FEMA was put in charge of ALL relief 3 days before Katrina made landfall, per order of Bush.

Key: The President's action authorizes the Department of Homeland Security, Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA), to coordinate all disaster relief efforts

[Mutley]

47. I love this.

Apparently none of Bush's cronies keeps an eye on their own website. :rofl: I saved a screenshot of it just in case someone gets wise and removes it.

[NewJeffCT]

48. you mean like...

when they changed the White House website that said "Bush declares combat operations over" to "Bush declares major combat operations over" a few months later.

[Mutley]

49. Righto!

The copy on my hardrive is big enough to actually read. Photobucket just automatically resizes things.