I am having a problem holding my tongue with "liberals" who deny racism

[G_j]

There are only a few things that actually piss me off at my fellow "liberals" to the point where I want to scream and swear at them.
The inability or refusal to see racism is one of these, though I've managed to restrain myself.

I am white, so what can say to educate my friends when blacks across the country are pointing out the racism involved in this tragedy and you are not listening or just think you know better?

What can this white man say? I've posted several compelling articles here, but I won't in this thread. All I can say is LISTEN to the people who know about it because it effects them directly.
Please, just try to really sit down, drop the paternal stance and do some deep listening.

thank you for letting me vent, :-)

[yardwork]

1. That's one reason I'm no longer a "liberal."

I became a Socialist. :)

Liberals just weren't getting it.

[JanMichael]

33. Sssh. I did that too.

I hate to say it but it seems like so many Liberals are really just guilty Conservatives...Class, Institional Racism, and other serious Economic issues don't really carry much weight with them. OTH social causes like Abortion, and PC stuff, do but that's sort of a one-trick-pony mentality to me.

I'm gonna get flamed for this...

[Cleita]

122. No flames from me. You summarized the mentality pretty well.

Did you ever read "Mein Kampf". I'm going through it again with an emphasis this time on Hitler's racism. Some of his points about the races inferior to Aryans, could have come right out of some of these posts. He uses false premises to bolster his argument, likening the differences in races to the differences of animal species, coming to the conclusion that this is the way Mother Nature wants it! Gawd, it's too bad the Freepers have a short attention span and don't read much, or they would be canonizing Hitler by now.

[Redleg]

103. Those terms are simply labels- the same as the labels we use to

stereotype people into this category or that category.

[begin_within]

2. It's really classism, and it's also racism because of the long history of

the treatement of African-Americans and other minorities which has caused racism to be built-in to classism in the U.S.

[G_j]

6. because of that history, class has color

look at the justice system. When a black man drives or walks down the street he can't hide his color. When he goes in front of a judge or jury he can't hide his color. When black "looters" are shown on TV, they can't hide their color. When a black person goes for a loan, for a job, they cannot hide their color. Many people see color and automatically relegate in their minds that person to a "class".

[teknomanzer]

68. Something I posted elsewhere...

But what you said pretty much sums up what I posted earlier today about racism in America. People some how think that racism is something that must be overt in form. They think about lynchings, cross burnings, racial epithets, Jim crow laws... sure that kind of racism is gone only to be replaced by a hidden nearly undetectable form which is deeply embedded in our society.

Think about this - when you see a young black man on the street at night what are you truthfully thinking? I know what I have thought. And I know where the thought came from... from depictions in popular media... news casts... conversations in the background... etc. If I, a minority of a different race - as someone who has experienced overt forms of racism in my life - a thing which SHOULD make me more sympathetic - can have a racist thought... though I deplore it... I know that the subtle indoctrination of society has placed similar thoughts in other people. Though they may deny - it is there just the same like an ugly stain and it won't go away until confronted.

What I posted earlier...

Whites aren't familiar with 'black' reality...

mostly because most whites have never had a serious conversation with black people. Some people just don't understand that most racism is insidious and not blatant acts of lynching and cross burning. Its the small imperceptible things that you will notice if you are black because they happen over and over again. Things that don't happen to white people. And the result is much more devastating than blatant forms of racism. If someone shouts an epithet at you, or attacks you, or deliberately states their intent to deny you your liberty at least then you can confront them - challenge them. But when racism is in the form of subtle neglect, lack of concern, and complete dismissal coupled with occasional patronizing tones it is impossible to fight because that type of racism can be easily denied.

Let me just say this... (Because I've seen some denial here on DU. Someone posted that racism had nothing to do with it... They knew because they were poor and white)

Poor White Person - If you save up your pennies, get a great hair do, a nice suit, sharp shoes, and a spiffy brief case, you can pass for a respectable member of society.

Poor Black Person - If you save up your pennies, get a great hair do, a nice suit, sharp shoes, and a spiffy brief case, you will still be black... and all of society's stereotypes and beliefs are going to be the baggage you carry along side that spiffy brief case.

Now just think - Job interview - personal economics...

[Window]

84. Great post.

Peace

[SemperEadem]

167. there is nothing more nauseating

than to have a great phone interview and the person you are interviewing with is impressed with you and how you express yourself and wants to bring you in for an interview so they can meet you and unroll the red carpet for you. You arrive at the interview and when they walk through the door to meet you, their faces fall and their attitude changes because you're a well spoken black person and they feel that you have tricked them because you didn't fall into their sterotype of how black people are supposed to talk or reason. What was a few days ago a glowing image in their minds of how well you'll fit in at their company, turns into a maliciousness you're not prepared to handle--and what did you do? Showed up black?

I know that no white person has ever had that happen to them. THAT is a very real example of covert racism.

Or...being hired as a temp to do receptionist work... and the day is going by very well and you're liking what you're doing and doing it well... only to have the temp agency call you and tell you that you can leave at noon because one of the company officers is livid that "a n----r is at the front desk greeting clients" coming in for appointments. That happened to me when I lived in Texas 23 years ago. My skin color is what got me let go for the day, not my ability to answer and direct phone calls.

just because it's not your reality doesn't mean it's not a reality... for someone.

BTW, thanks for your posting.. it was right on target.

[Karenina]

170. And you didn't "sound"

like a black person on the phone! :evilgrin:

Meine ficken Fresse, sie wollen das nicht kapieren...

[bear425]

174. great post. thank you. nt

[Guaranteed]

74. The neo-con philosophy IS classism.

And, by no coincidence, blacks happen to quite often be in the class that the neocons don't give a shit about. In fact, it's the side the neocons want to take advantage of.

That's the bottom line.

[MsTryska]

3. I dunno.....

personally i find "liberals" are sometimes too quick to yell racism.

[SmokingJacket]

4. I don't understand it either.

The people who deny that racism is a big problem in this country must live in very isolated communities and get their reality from TV, where the most positive spin is placed on everything (though if they paid attention, they'd see how few black people are main characters on TV, too).

All I can say is, I got stories. I have stories about how schools I've taught in with entirely black populations are severely under-supplied compared to white schools WITHIN THE SAME DISTRICT. How the black students who do poorly academically are labeled "retarded" and therefore hopeless, while the white students who do poorly are labeled "learning disabled" and given massive resources.

I have stories about how white people here up north are selling their houses and moving rather than send their children to a school with a large black population.

When you get a roomful of comfortable middle class white people together, loosen them up with a couple of drinks, the racist shit will be flying WITHIN MINUTES.

[bobbieinok]

58. bro + SIL..told the best schools in Houston: obviously those with few

blacks

[teknomanzer]

70. Being hispanic has given me an interesting perspective...

on racism in this country... and you are so right. The racist comments white folks have made in front of me... because I'm not black... has at times sent my mind reeling. And I was left thinking, "what does this person say about me when I'm not around?" Racism is REALITY! People need to wake up and confront it or it won't get dealt with at all.

[Spazito]

5. It frustrates me when the argument is used that classism is not

a form of racism when, in fact, it is institutionalized racism, it's as simple as that, imo.

[Outer_Limit]

11. I agree

[QC]

17. Is classism always institutionalized racism? n/t

[Spazito]

22. In every instance, no, as a general practice, yes

One only needs to see the statistics on what percentage of the poor in the US are minorities versus the total percentage of poor and one can hardly come to any other conclusion, imo.

[QC]

30. There is a white underclass in this country whose origins go back to the

colonial days. Clearly their plight is not racist, at least in the usual sense of the word, but they are definitely the product of centuries of scorn toward the poor, the predatory business and political practices of more elite whites, etc.

But in large part, yeah, poverty in America is tied to race. It's still important not to forget class, though.

[zalinda]

7. It used to be racism

but I think it's more class-ism now. You only have to hear about a mobile home park being destroyed to see it. Poor people are lazy, they can't handle money, they have no ambition, they're stupid, etc. If there was such a thing as a rich black community (for some reason, when blacks "make it" they move away and into a white neighborhood), I think you would have seen a faster response. It may be because rich people have more contacts to get things done. Money talks!

Is there racism? Yes. Is it the same as it was even 10 years ago? No. Mainly because our young people have become more color blind, especially in mixed race schools. I now see more and more groups walking down the street in which the racial make up is mixed.

Poor blacks are usually slapped with the drug user label. The poor whites are usually slapped with the drunk label. These labels are only used to make the person using them feel superior. We all know that most poor people work harder than many rich people.

zalinda

[Skwmom]

8. There's still plenty of racism - especially in the south. n/t

[ultraist]

57. It's not just the South, Disparites in income are just as bad up North

As are the disparities in education and health. Sorry, can't blame just the South anymore.

The South does, however have more hate crime groups but the most active and violent groups are in CA.

[QC]

111. Shhhhh!

Please don't threaten people's comforting illusions like that!

[ultraist]

128. oops...

:blush:

Sorry, I didn't mean to interupt a good ole South bashing moment.

;)

[really annoyed]

130. I Agree

But you can't pretend that the South is free of racism either or better than the North when it comes to race relations because...

In my opinion, racism is a national problem. It doesn't exist in North/South battles anymore. My county (I'm in Michigan) was one of the only counties that went "blue" in the 2004 election, and it happens to be one of the most segregated areas in the United States. (2000 census)

And among my "progressive" friends, I have heard the most hateful racism spout from their mouths. It is unbelievable.

[ultraist]

131. Yes, racism certainly does exist in the South

I don't think I implied otherwise.

[really annoyed]

133. Of course not

:)

Forgot to add that in my post - was too busy spouting off about my stories, hehe

But I am tired (and I'm sure you are too) of making racism a North/South issue. It really is a national problem and I do agree with the sentiments of the original post because I've seen that racist attitude too many times among my "liberal" friends.

And what REALLY burns me is when I speak up about their attitudes, and they tell me to "lighten up."

[ultraist]

135. I agree.

Keep speaking out! You're doing a good thing. ;)

[really annoyed]

136. Thanks!

:)

I know speaking out is the right thing to do... In the past, I would have kept my mouth shut to be polite. But I've learned that it's not right to stay silent in matters like this!

[G_j]

9. from casual observation

(don't know about the actual stats or anything) But from casual observation, I do find hope in seeing many young people who appear entirely comfortable in mixed settings and have friends of various race.

Unfortunately, we are a long way from changing the system where racism's insidious roots run so very deep.
I hope these young people are 'activist' in changing these things.

[Outer_Limit]

14. I believe it is still more racism than it is class-ism

Even when an african american has money, it does not shield them from the institutionalized racism in this country. Unless they have their bank account balance printed on their shirt, I doubt they would be treated any better than a lower income AA. As for the following, "for some reason, when blacks 'make it' they move away and into a white neighborhood", no one wants to live in a neighbor with high crime rates, poor infrastructure, and insufficient schools. The reason for moving out is quite clear.

[Karenina]

87. "If there was such a thing as a rich black community..."

:wow: :argh: :wow:

[fortyfeetunder]

89. There are such things are "rich black communities"

And it's not necessarily moving into a white neighborhood. Please think about this.

[zalinda]

94. I haven't seen one in all the states that

I've lived in. And, I don't think it's a bad thing if there's not. It doesn't matter if it's rich or poor, a community is much better when it is made up of all colors, races, sexualities and cultures.

zalinda

[noiretextatique]

147. you have been in the wrong states

there are wealthy black communities in california, e.g., baldwin hills in the south, the east, and even in the midwest.

[kwassa]

151. There are wealthy black areas that are also fairly segregated

as mentioned Baldwin Hills, Ladiera Heights and View Park in Los Angeles, various prosperous but separate neighborhoods around Atlanta, major developments in Prince Georges County, Maryland, the "Gold Coast" in DC off of 16th Street, all multimillion dollar homes. I know an area in Detroit near Palmer Park, and can probably find others near major metro areas with a little research.

[ultraist]

169. Harlem, NYC, possibly the most famous Black neighborhood

Home to many famous African Americans.

http://www.hometoharlem.com/HARLEM/HTHADMIN.NSF/harlem/homepage?open

[William769]

10. I also fell the same way about people who say they are liberal

& don't seem to give a shit about Gay Civil rights. It's shameful!

[G_j]

12. agreed

& people avoiding issues that may "offend" the "family value" voter because it is all about "politics".
:puke:
politics should never trump basic civil rights

[xchrom]

13. now you know how i feel.

our version of classism uses several tools on the way to help itself out.

and racism is and always has been one of the most effective when setting up a divided country.

[G_j]

20. it happens to be very easy

and convenient, like walking around with a sign on one's back, as at one time it was also entirely clear who the slaves were.

[electron_blue]

15. people can't see what they are often most guilty of

I see that with sexism all the time.

Dont' focus so hard on what people think, instead concentrate on what they do. If they do something racist, then call them on it.

[Iris]

16. Don't hold your tongue.

Just try to educate them nicely. I would suggest encouraging them to volunteer in an all-black community - as a mentor or, even better, as simply someone who helps out in an after school program or volunteers at a recreation center.

I was a teacher in an all-black school for 3 years in my 20s. There were many, many times when I was the only white face in the crowd. It was humbling, enlightening, and has changed my outlook in more ways than I can describe.

[Armstead]

18. Classism increasingly affects all races

Racism remains a festering sore. But it should not be overshadowed by the larger issue today of a growing underclass, which is dragging down people of all races.

Racism is less of a problem today than it used to be. When I was growing up, there was an automatic limit on the accepted role of blacks, regardless of their lifestyle, values and even their economic status. A black person in a responsible position was seen as unusual. Today, at least, enough African Americans have climbed the ladder into the middle and upper classes that color is less of a factor in how people are viewed as individuals.

Unfortunately, the problem of class has gotten worse. The gap between the haves and the have-nots keeps growing wider. And the number of have-nots is getting bigger and the haves are getting fewer, but richer.

Race still does play a large role in that, unfortunately. The long history of neglect and surprssion still exists and keeps many down because of their race. But it also inctreasingly affects peopel of all races, as an increasing number of whites are also joiining the class of the economically disenfranchised.

And the class issue is exacerbated by the increasing amount that our policies and our economic and social values have become oriented to catering to the haves at the expense of the have-nots.

I guess what I'm saying is that you can't deal with racism without also dealing with the core issue of class in a way that transcends race.

[Bluerthanblue]

53. while I agree with most

of what you say, a white 'lower class' person CAN change their plight.
A black 'lower class' person cannot change the obvious color of their skin- and SHOULDN'T have to.

I'm a white woman, i have a black son. We're poor, in terms of monetary goods, and material things. That could change with a winning lottery ticket. But the looks my son recieves when we go shopping, or picks up an item, or the words that some truly low-class (in terms of personal integrety) fools exhibit, won't change with any monetary leveling of the playing field.

Driving while black is a crime in most states. It may not be on the books- but it is a fact.

People don't want to admit things that they can't change, don't personally experience, and sadly sometimes harbor unknowingly.

Continue to speak the truth- gently and clearly. Silence is approval, and inaction allows wrong to continue.

peace,
blu

[bobbieinok]

61. I thought I understood + then a black friend in IA !!! described how

she was followed in stores and often not permitted to try clothes on.......this was 20 or so years ago; I don't know if things have improved

[Skidmore]

19. I thinks many whites see being white as the canvas on which

all other events and conditions are painted. They never come to terms that white is not the absence of color--that whiteness and its trappings is a culture in and of itself. It is not a neutral or static state in the universe.

[QC]

24. Middle-class people tend to view class in the same way.

They often see their own class, and all the privileges and attitudes that come with it, as some sort of universal norm from which everything else is a departure.

[Armstead]

27. It should be the norm

The goal of society ought to be to bring as many people into the middle class as possible.Poverty should be the exeption, rather than the inescapable reality for so many.

Middle class does not necessarily mean being intitled to every goodie available, like a vacation home or expensive car. But everyone ought to have a shot at a decent job at decent pay, comfortable housing, basic transportation, healthcare, food etc.

[QC]

29. I'm talking more about middle-class attitudes and prejudices here

than about providing a decent standard of living for everyone.

Think about "nice" bourgeois types clucking their tongues at poor folks who don't abide by middle-class notions of respectability and decorum and you'll see what I mean.

[Armstead]

32. That's a whole nother can of worms

I believe that racism and elitism is a fundamental part of the human condition that transcends politics.

All humans have a subconscious reflex to seperate the world into "us" and "them." Anyone different from our own personal norms is them, regardless of their race or even their class.

At its most benign, it is smug complacency. At it's worst it results in messes like the Middle East where people of the same genetic heritage still kill each otehr based on which ancient tribe they evolved from. Or different groups blow each other up to perpetuate old grievences like in Northern Ireland.

IMO the only way to deal with that is on levels that are much bigger and deeper than politics.

[Marnieworld]

21. So don't hold your tongue

Wake them up.

[G_j]

26. I suppose

my frustration is in that I feel some people should know.
Most everyone by this time is aware of the countless studies that demonstrate without a shadow of doubt that blacks fare far worse in the justice system, are more likely to get the death penalty etc.
Blacks consistently fare worse when applying for loans to buy houses etc.
In the face of all this well documented, and well known injustice and inequality what can I teach someone?

[Marnieworld]

35. Perhaps you can't teach

But you can just list what you just listed and state your beliefs. Sometimes you can't obviously.
I had a moment with my boss the other day when he defended the federal gov't and blamed the city for being stupid about building on a flood plain that they deserved what they get. This was in response to my statement that it was hard to enjoy my brief vacation over labor day because of what has happened. But I held my tongue due to shock and the feeling of "where do you begin?"

But there are times when I can speak my mind with co-workers or acquaintances and I explain the difference between just predjudice and actual racism. Being predjudice is a personal bias that is words and individual behavior. The people who dragged James Byrd are predjudiced. Racism is institutional and that's the type of documented evidence that you referred to. That's the most pernicious and influential. I believe that it's easier to change people's hearts than to attack and destroy the institutional designs to oppress.

Katrina's aftermath racism or classism? It's impossible to know for sure but it was blatant disregard for the value of their lives. It's clear that the safety and preservation of the city and its people was never ever a priority. The rich white people would get out and the rest well fuck em. That was the policy as reflected in words and deeds.

Joe Albaugh's FEMA wanted to change its entitlement program record. Apparently people of the United States are not entitled to food water and shelter after a major disaster. We are living this policy.

[proud2BlibKansan]

23. My argument is this:

It doesn't matter if it is intentional or not. So many white people say well we didn't mean anything by what we did or said, we aren't racists, we have good intentions. I myself used to offer that argument.

But now I think the answer is to look at how African Americans PERCEIVE racism. If they feel discriminated against, then they are. We must accept their perception regardless of our intent.

[hfojvt]

39. I just cannot buy that

I have now had two black co-workers throw the R-card at me. Just because a black person calls racism does not make it so. You'd better be able to back it up. It is one thing to say "you are a racist" and another thing to say "you said/did this, this, and this and that is racist because (you have a double standard or you are stereotyping or over-generalizing or other specifics). They can explain their perception not just fling accusations that must be true because their skin is black and mine is white.

If you see anything, be it bigfoot, Brad Pitt, or racism, do not expect me to believe it until I see it. Show me where it is, rub my nose in it, if you have to. Even then I might not be able to see it, but blindness is not malicious whereas angry name-calling (the anger of the OP and the name calling of my co-workers) is.

[Tomee450]

40. But just because you think

something you might have said and done was not racist does not mean you are correct. I have had experiences with white people whose actions would have been considered racist by any African American. However, those persons would have recoiled in anger at the suggestion that they were racist.

[hfojvt]

44. As I said, if the accusation is accurate

then they should prove that or explain it, don't just fling out accusations that they cannot back up. It also depends on the action or actions. How many actions make a person a racist? Of what kind? It is one thing to tell a person that what they just did or said is racist and another to label them as a racist based on one or two incidents. I doubt if there is any person on the planet who is completely prejudice (or bias) free. A person who would recoil in anger might be motivated to improve their actions if the racism in them is explained. Calling them a racist is not going to be a similar motivation, and a few actions are not necessarily a solid basis for the claim. They probably have a much better knowledge of their own past and their own attitudes.

[Tomee450]

55. I'm sorry to say that you

just don't get it. Maybe if you read a few books about the black experience in America with an open mind, you might understand why certain words and acts might be perceived by blacks has being racist.

[hfojvt]

73. I never said that the words and the acts were not racist

I said that it is better to focus on the acts than on the people doing the acts. Once you label a person a racist, you see racism in everything they do, even when it is not there. The same is true with any label, be it bully, moran, FReeper, DUmmy, etc. It becomes a frame, or caricature that keeps people from connecting and living in peace. Of course, not everybody wants to live in peace, and sadly, those people are found on all sides.

[noiretextatique]

91. how can you "prove" something to people who are vested in denial?

it's a part of the problem. many white people are vested in denying racism, so it's often impossible to "prove" it to them. "oh...it's not THAT!" or "you have to be REALLY CAREFUL using THAT word." i've heard it all, and i know a thing a two about the subject, since i have 46 years experience as a black woman in america.
i am stopped, while driving or walking into an office building , when other people are not: I KNOW WHY. you may need "proof," but i am the living proof. when i am not compensated as well as my white counterpart, though i do as good or better job: I KNOW WHY, but you may need more "proof." i know what is and is not racism, because I HAVE TO KNOW. you don't.

[hfojvt]

124. I may be vested in my own pride, but certainly not in denial of racism

To me, the R card loses validity when it is over-played. I am not saying that it does not exist, but I KNOW it does not exist in me or my brother. When we get accused, that provides evidence to me that there are some false accusations out there. I always want to see the evidence of anything. When I see people who seem to shoot from the hip the charge of racism, and when asked to show or explain to me what I cannot see their response is an angry personal attack like "IF YOU CANNOT SEE IT, YOU MUST BE RACIST TOO!!!" It is time for those people to go read Dale Carnegie's "How to make friends and influence people".

You may KNOW why you are stopped by security or by police, but my two questions are: then why am I hassled by the same police, and 2nd are you okay with me being harrassed? I like to expand the issue so we can be on the same side - let's end harrassment, let's end poverty, let's end maliciousness and stereotyping and superficial judgementalism. I do not believe you are part of a group that is the only group that is treated unkindly or unjustly by this society.

[alarcojon]

142. It's the RATE of hassling that's the issue

as well as the individual's power (or lack thereof) to affect the level of hassling. This is NOT the first time these things have been pointed out in this thread....

All we have to do is go over to LBN and see this: Minorities more likely to get pulled over in three of every five suburbs

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x1772063

So you might indeed get hassled, but people of color get hassled more often. We get told that the house is not for sale, then a white couple is told it IS for sale. These things have been documented over and over again. They have been pointed out to you in post # 115, to which you responded defensively and without reference to the reports that were linked to. Yet you persist with your line of argument.

Since you seem to need a minority to say this to you, I'll say it: I am not okay with your being hassled if you are not guilty of anything. Are YOU okay with my getting hassled five times as often as you in several Chicago suburbs?

Lastly, sometimes white people complain that they got hassled, for example, because they had long hair. You could cut your hair and your chances of getting hassled go down. I have a Ph.D and am a law abiding citizen, yet I STILL get hassled. Seem fair to you?

[noiretextatique]

145. look...you need to do you own work

how do YOU know when "the r-card" is "overplayed?" when someone confronts you about something you said or your attitude...or your brother?
if you can't accept that there is something about you two that keeps making people accuse you, then newsflash: that is being vested in denial.
i can't say you are denying racism, but whatever it is people keep telling you that you refuses to OWN...it's more than obvious that it is about you, and no one else.

finally...let's do all of what you say you want to do. but please let's first stop using phrases like "the r card" and diminishing the racism that is currently allowing people to die in new orleans as simple "unkindness" and "unjustness." what we are seeing now is people dying, and you have already been giving evidence of housing and profiling discrimination...not to mention the disenfranchisement that cost gore florida. it's not "unkind": it means it's harder to find a decent apartment, or you're more likely to get stopped and arrested, or you are charged more to buy a car, or someone disappears you name from the voter rolls: it's your effects entire life, your health, and your well-being, and your wallet. and it's annoying as hell, and after a while you just get really sick of it, so the next unaware person might catch more hell than he deserved.
none of that being true diminishes any unkindness directed towards you or anyone else, or in any way invalidates the injustice done to anyone else.

[hfojvt]

154. my work in this case is rhetorical

and so far nobody bothered to find an instance where I denied the existence of racism. However, I agree with you and T that the phrase "r-card" was a bad idea, before I even read your post (it was pointed out by ultraist first). In my defense, it seemed to apply to the incidence I was talking about and it made a convenient, if slanted, short-hand for "accusations of racism" or "charges of racism".

As far as me being accused alot, I said that two co-workers had, but that is one incidence rather than two. Dwayne came in and stirred up Harvey with the idea that I am racist. Supposedly Dwayne felt I was avoiding him because I like to split up and cover more territory or somehow I was leaving the heavy lifting to him. First, I would say that my seniority should give me preference in job selection, and second that I spent the entire half hour working while he spent fifteen minutes complaining about me so how am I the shirker? Third, he could have said something to me instead of running to our boss, and fourth we all were having problems with our main boss who was, if I can find a label that fits, a little bit of a bully-control freak-paranoid-micromanager. So Harvey was a little bit stressed out, and also not happy that I did not join in his battle against "the man" and instead looked after my own heinie. Also he probably felt I was "after him" because he got a job I applied for. Anyway, there is alot of stuff going on, and to me it was more about Dwayne wanting to stir things up than anything else.

I am not sure how a person is supposed to be cleared of the charge of racism. The bigot always says "some of my best friends are X". My brother never seemed like a racist when he was practically blood brothers with the black kid next door (a summer friend staying at his white grandmother's house). Who knows, though, people do change. He is a hard-ass, ruthless manager. Perhaps his employees see him as a bully-control freak-paranoid-micromanager.

Race never seemed like an issue for me when I was voting for Jesse, although I still say that if Jesse had been white the ticket would have been Dukakis-Jackson instead of Dukakis-Bentsen. Race never seemed to be an issue when I offered to move in with an Indian fellow graduate student to help him bring his family here. If I am not bias-free, I am certainly a long way from John Birch.

Also, when I wanted to borrow $3000 to buy a car for $3500 that blue-booked at $4500 and I had $2000 in the bank, had been in business for five years in that town where I was buying a building (on land contract after the bank had turned down my offer to buy my previous location, a decision that cost them at least $5000 as the $35,000 building sat vacant for over a year and they paid broker's fees to sell it) and was 4 years ahead on my payments and wrote over $12000 worth of checks every year. I had to farking get a co-signer to do it. Grrrrr.

I am not sure that I implied anything about NOLA, only that IME racism does not exist every time racism is charged. That seems too obvious to cause a firestorm or do many DUers feel such charges are justified 99.44% of the time?

[noiretextatique]

164. of course you deny it, you fail to mention apartheid in namibia

in your claim that in the all-white enclave where you were, there was no sign of racism anywhere. but i bet you i'd get a different answer from a black namibian. their perception counts as much or more than yours, since you are, per your self-description, blind.

[Terran]

146. I almost hate to tell you this, but...

your repeated use of the phrase "R-card" (i.e., "race card") is very telling about current level of understanding of this issue. The very concept of "race card" is, to me, racist, because it can easily be applied to 100% of situations where people of color find themselves mistreated by whites and said whites won't or can't admit they've done something unethical. The white knee-jerk reaction these days is to simultaneously project the bad behavior onto the person of color AND to suggest that there was no bad behavior on their own part. "I didn't do anything, they're just playing the race card!"

[proud2BlibKansan]

41. It's called empathy

Walk a mile in their moccasins and maybe you will understand.

[hfojvt]

42. of course there is no way I can do that

I have,however, read "Black like me" and seen the movie "Soul Man" for whatever that is worth. My problem with the book is that he would apply for jobs, not get them, and then call that racism. Maybe he was reading body language or unspoken attitudes, but if it is racism when a black person does not get a job, then how do you explain all the times white people do not get the jobs they apply for? If it is racism when a black person is followed around in a store, then how do you explain all the times white people are followed around in stores? Not that it happens all the time, but it will often happen if the white person is not well dressed, and thus I would say that the classism is as significant a factor as the apparent racism. Empathy gets in the way for me when a black person says "this is happenening to me because I am black" if I can see that it happens to alot of white people too. Just because they have experiences that I cannot have had does not mean they are seeing things accurately.

[proud2BlibKansan]

50. Accuracy isn't the point

How those who feel wronged perceive the situation is what matters.

You also can't compare white and black experiences. The two groups have lived completely different realities.

I honestly believe we need to focus on building trust. I am a white woman working in the black community. I learned a long time ago not to argue 'reality' or 'accuracy' with African Americans. I can't fix past wrongdoings.

[Solon]

Your entire post strikes of either niavete or subconscious racism...

First, I'm a white guy who has worked in enviroments where I was the ONLY white person there, and I never had the "R-card", as you put it, pulled on me. I would say that your black co-workers picked on you body language and attitude, which was probably a little condenscending, and concluded you were racist. I would say that observation is accurate. Second, you dismiss, out of hand, various examples of institutionalized racism that occur, because similar things happen to white guys. The problem is the RATE at which such things occur. To give your examples, to guys apply for the same position, at the same company, same qualifications, one happens to be white, the other black. Which is more likely to be hired? I would say the white one, a KKK anti-affirmative action guy would probably say the black one. Another is, what are the chances of you being pulled over, versus a black man, for let's say, sobriety tests, drug searches, etc.

You are the one with the blinders on, and your gross generalizations of the attitudes of black people is disgusting. That is all.

[hfojvt]

80. how do they, or you, know that my condescending attitude

is not equal opportunity. It applies to everyone who engages in ad hominem arguments while misspelling naivete, environments and two. :evilgrin: "People who cannot see that X is true are disgusting" is not a very convincing argument for the truth or falsehood of proposition X.

Also, people do not experience rates, only sociologists and statisticians do. The author of "Black like me" concluded that there was racism not because he studied rates, but only because he applied for a couple of jobs and did not get them. If he had talked about rates, that would be more convincing.

However, the people who beat the crap out of Griffin for performing his experiment and writing his book "Black Like Me" are not wearing blinders, they are wearing hoods and sheets. We are certainly not in the same league and nor am I an enabler or apologist for them. You should save your disgust for them. Your disgust and accusations leveled at me based on a whole three paragraphs of some anecdotes and musings are unjustified and unappreciated and not a positive reflection on you.

[ultraist]

95. I agree Solon.

"throw the race card at me" pretty much says it all.

[fortyfeetunder]

90. You need to read Peggy McIntosh's White Privilege essay

http://www.cwru.edu/president/aaction/UnpackingTheKnapsack.pdf

After you read this, let us know if this made a difference in your thinking.

[kwassa]

115. These two sources are not worth a lot

You are using a fictional film, and one book to deny that racism exists by making an assumption that it is really about class, when it is not. The reason it is known that is not is in situations where "testers" with identical qualifications are sent to apply for housing or jobs, essentially a racial sting operation. The results are often quite depressing.

HUD does this for housing.

http://www.huduser.org/publications/hsgfin/hds.html

quote:

While generally down since 1989, housing discrimination still exists at unacceptable levels. The greatest share of discrimination for Hispanic and African American home seekers can still be attributed to being told units are unavailable when they are available to non-Hispanic whites and being shown and told about less units than a comparable non-minority. Although discrimination is down on most measures for African American and Hispanic homebuyers, there are worrisome upward trends of discrimination in the areas of geographic steering for African Americans and, relative to non-Hispanic whites, the amount of help agents provide to Hispanics with obtaining financing. On the rental side, Hispanics are more likely in 2000 than in 1989 to be quoted a higher rent than their white counterpart for the same unit.

http://www.citypages.com/databank/18/841/article3187.asp


THE MINNESOTA FAIR Housing Center, an independent nonprofit based in Minneapolis, has come up with a clean little study that confirms what a lot of people already knew. Last year, the center performed a test in which two people with like jobs and incomes--one white and one of color--would separately look at each of 72 apartments selected for the study in northeast and southwest Minneapolis. In more than two-thirds of the cases, the study found, white testers were treated better than those of color. "Unfavorable treatment" included:

* telling white applicants that there might be a rent discount "for the right person;"

* not showing up for appointments with applicants of color, while all the white applicants' appointments were kept;

* showing applicants of color "inferior units in the basement" and nicer upstairs apartments to whites;

* requiring higher deposits or extra documentation from applicants of color;

and so on.

[hfojvt]

125. can you do some more research?

Show me where I ever said "racism does not exist". I believe I was arguing that it does not exist every time it is called. I was told that I need to walk a mile in their shoes. I said that I have made some attempts by reading that book and watching that movie, and that the book provided another example of where racism was called on flimsy evidence.

Show me where I am wrong about that or stop making strawmen. Please.

[noiretextatique]

143. i think this illustrates that you need to do more research

besides one film and one book.
if you like, you can google "toyota financing" and try something on life insurance rates too. you will find the same information.

[Karenina]

172. Is there an assumption

that it is incumbent on Kwassa to assemble the info and present it for HIM to judge? Oh this toxic brew through which we must swim...

[kwassa]

149. Your attempts are very small attempts, and there is no straw man

You need to walk many more miles in the shoes of others. Much of the material is readily available.

I agree that racism doesn't exist every time it is called, however, I also think that racism might exist in situations where you would not recognize as such because you are not in a position to have the experience and frame of reference to recognize it. You can't, as a white person.

"Black Like Me" has the value of one persons anecdotal experience. It was not intended to be proof of every black person's personal experience, only that of a single white man posing as black. You dismiss it's validity out of hand with no proof of your own other than personal opinion.

His anecdotal experience, however, is totally reinforced by factual circumstances PROVEN by anonymous testers of different races in the material I referenced. There is real discrimination going on out there. That is my point, and there is no straw man, the experience of the author of "Black Like Me" is completely valid. I gave you specific research on the subject, which I knew existed and found in a couple minutes on Google.

"Soul Man" is a work of fiction, and I don't know how that would necessariy explain anything but the point of view of the screenwriters.

[hfojvt]

153. the anonymous testers do not prove everything

and there is a strawman. You stated: "You are using a fictional film, and one book to deny that racism exists by making an assumption that it is really about class, when it is not."

The strawman is that I never denied that racism exists. Upon reflection, my use of the phrase "r-card" seems to imply that it is always played falsely. Poor choice of words on my part, which probably reveals excessive and unwarranted skepticism about the legitimacy of such accusations. Put it down to my experience that it has not been valid the last four times I have seen it called, so when I hear "wolf" again, I require alot of convincing.

However, this is a good point: "I also think that racism might exist in situations where you would not recognize as such because you are not in a position to have the experience and frame of reference to recognize it. You can't, as a white person."

Still, my response is that black people do not know any more about what it is like to be white than white people know about what it is like to be black. When they complain about jobs they have not gotten, bosses or cops that have hassled them, loans they didn't get, and so on, they seem to imply that those things never happen to white people. My own experiences tell me that they sure do.

Statistics show that they happen more often to blacks, but does that imply that it is okay when it happens to me? The sting operation does not prove Griffins perception, because he does not know that this is one of those cases. Maybe when he did not get the job there was a more qualified white person who did, maybe there was a more qualified black person who did, maybe they hired the boss's nephew or the HR persons golfing buddy's son or somebody with fewer qualifications who gave a better interview. How does he know, and how do you know that he knows?

I did appreciate the links though, although I think they did not speak to any argument I made. My previous answer was a little terse because I was running late to work.

[Karenina]

88. Maybe someone

is trying to tell you something. :freak:

I would conjecture that black folks are not inclined to call out a racist in the workplace unless the perceived offense is particulary egregious. Should it happens a THIRD time... :evilgrin:

[alarcojon]

99. Agreed

It is not exactly easy or pleasant to call somebody out on their racism, especially in the workplace. It's not exactly like a person of color would be confident that they would get any support from co-workers. In fact, they might easily be the ones who end up in trouble.

[alarcojon]

100. " Just because a black person calls racism does not make it so"

Agreed. But please think about this: Yes, there are times when we "call racism" when there are other explanations (I'm Latino, BTW). I think they are a pretty small minority of the time, myself. But even these erroneous charges of racism are a direct effect of the damage that living in a racist society does to a person. That is why "liberal white" racism is so pernicious - I think "liberal whites" (I agree with LoZoccolo that no true liberals deny racism) have become masters of a paternalistic, defensive form of racism which is very difficult to confront.

[noiretextatique]

101. living in the ohso progressive bay area

i experience that paternalistic, defensive form of racism almost everyday. a security guard in the building where i'm working one day stopped me and asked me if he could help me. i passed this same security guard for several days before he decided i needed his help. i don't know why he decided to help me after seeing me for several days, but as you mention, living in a racist soceity can make one somewhat paranoid. and that paranoia is not crazy paranoia...it's experiential paranoia.
if the security guard decided to help me because i am black, he will think twice about doing that again because of how i responded. if he didn't decide to help me because i am black, he will be more conscious of how his help might be perceived by people who are routinely offered help by security guards, and sometimes by other people who work in the building, just because they are who they are.

a few years ago, someone took it upon himself to offer me help in an elevator of the office building where i'd been working for two years. i'd never seen the guy before, but he took it upon himself to interrogate me about what i was doing there and where i was going...as if he had the right. i can't remember exactly what i told him, but i embarrassed him, and he deserved it.

i do contract work, so i work for a lot of different companines. i can tell almost immediately what "the vibe" is in a company, and what kind of shit is headed my way. i can tell which company cultures only value certain types of people, and those culture ACTIVELY work to diminish and devalue my expertise and my personhood. not surprisingly, those cultures are in the majority, even in liberal bastions like san francisco. because i am very smart and very competent, i am sometimes able to "win over" people by doing a great job for them, however sometimes i am completely sabotaged and stymied...people actually pay me some they can do that, because some feel threatened by me because i am smart, competent, black and female :shrug: the year i spent on a federal government project was the bright spot of my 25 years as an accountant because...drumroll...i worked for a latina woman. she could SEE me, and she didn't feel obligated to try to diminish, devalue, sabotage or stymie me. if people think racism doesn't exist in liberal bastions...they need to think again. if people think education and money makes it all magically disappear...they are just fooling themselves.

as i mentioned to someone in another post, people who are the targets of racism have to be aware of it, because you have to be aware of it because you have to deal with it. i notice it because i am aware of it...how could i NOT be aware of it? how could i NOT notice it when IT is always a possibility, and often, a probability? i consider that awareness historical, pyschological, social, cultural, economic and political intelligence. and yeah, racism can make you crazy and paranoid too.

[noiretextatique]

102. a few questions for you

why did they "use the R-card" with you, and did they back it up?
what did you say or do to illicit the responeS?
do you always need your words/actions explained to you?
did you "fling accusations" when you said or did whatever it was that illicited these responseS?
how can you "see it" if you choose to be blind and consider the responses to your blindness "malicious," but your blindness as benign and innocent?
finally, do you understand that other might perceive your blindness as malicious and respond to it in kind?

[hfojvt]

116. at least you have questions instead of assuming you know the answers

However I have to cop to the Reagan defense - I do not remember the details. I only remember the false accusation which seemed to come out of the blue and was not backed up. So therefore I do not know what I did. The way I remember it, it seemed that he felt every white person is a racist until proven innocent.

Do I always need my words/actions explained to me? Well, I may have mild Aspergers if there is such a thing, and I am quite socially awkward. I could be one of those Seinfeld types, like a close-talker, except that I would be a silent-starer or something. I have a tendency not to speak until/unless I am spoken to, but then I will be looking at people waiting for some kind of greeting. Co-workers sometimes are quite puzzling, and lots of times they want me to do things their way, when they are not the boss of me.

If I dump a bucket of water on someone's head I can understand if they get upset - attacks and practical jokes are not on my agenda. If I walk by with a bucket of water, and some accidentally splashes on somebody, I can understand a little bit of anger even after they learn it was an accident. If I walk by and say "eff off" or give them the bird, things are pretty clear. But if I walk by and do not say "hi" or somehow look at them wrong. Then things get pretty confusing. People perhaps decide within 30 minutes of meeting me that they do not like me and everything after that goes in that frame, whether it belongs there or not. People also play games, trying to acheive some hidden agenda, and they try to figure out what my game is, or assume they know "why" I did something. They think they know what my game is when I am not conscious of playing any game except trying to keep myself "untouched and alive."

You cannot choose blindness, that is called "closing your eyes to a situation you do not wish to acknowledge". For example, those 3-D posters. Other people can see things in them. I have tried and tried, but I cannot do so. Being unable to see is not malicious - ever. Consider partisanship as well. In a game of Minnesota vs. Denver, fans will often 'see' bad calls or no calls. To a Viking fan, it was a late hit, to a Bronco fan, it wasn't. I say, let me look at the slow motion replay. I will call it as I see it. Viking fans might be upset with me, and falsely accuse me of being anti-Viking if I call it one way. Same with Bronco fans if I call it the other way. When it gets to the point where you will attack or manufacture accusations against all who do not choose your side of an issue, then I think partisanship has gone too far. I prefer peace, reasonableness and tolerance to extreme partisanship. I call them as I see them, and I call maliciousness when I see that too.

[noiretextatique]

141. perhaps they misunderstood you

that's very possible, since you are shy or awkward in social situations.
but 2 people had the same misunderstanding? i'll tell you what my wise cousin tells me: everybody can't be wrong.

i have the ability to tune out most people in a work situation, unless they are actively annoying, which really come in handy.

and yes: choosing blindness can be very malicious, because of course you have the choice to see, and the effects of the blindness may be malicious. we are all responsible for the choices we make.
i don't know what happened in your situation, so i do know if your perception is accurate or not...i'll take your word for it, since you answered my questions so graciously.

however, there is no reason why anyone in america should be unaware of racism, or that it has been and insidious disease in america for a very long time. and that it has an affect people who are raised in this culture...everyone single person.

we went from a society entrenched in centuries of white supremacist doctrine as the norm, the tradition, and the law, to one where jim crow (apartheid) was the law of the land for another hundred years, officially ending in my lifetime, and i am only 46 years old. how could anyone be unware of that? why are black people still being disenfranchised...in 2005? how can that NOT be seen as a continuation of the same old patterns? and finally: how can white people possibly be immune to the effects of that legacy?

what suprises me is not the number of white people who are racist, but the number of white people who are not racist. would it suprise anyone if a large number of white people in south africa held racist views about blackpeople? it sure as hell wouldn't surprise me.

i guess what i'm saying is: i don't see racism as *personal*, i see it as cultural. and i still say: this culture, by an large, still supports racism and racist attitudes, so we all have to do our personal, internal work to recognize that, in our society and in ourselves.

with the backlash came the further institutionalization of denial and the defensiveness, so now we have "cry racism" and "the r-card" yet as i type a human tragedy is continuing to unfold in the southeastern part of the this country, where, coincidentally, a large portion of the displaced just happen to be african-americans. just like the a large portion of the people disenfranchised in florida just happen to be african-americans. there was no *reason* for the backlash...the bell curve, the declining significance of race, and so on, except to confuse the issue and create resentment. what you have as a result of that is american citizens displaced by a natural disaster being treated like they are not really citizens at all.

bottom line: no one in america should still be choosing blindness.
and yes...some people do have a chip on their shoulders and come are looking for lurking racists around every corner. on the other hand: everybody can't be wrong.

[hfojvt]

156. I see a different tradition

which may be naivete or false pride, but my history is one from New England, New York, Pennsylvania, Michigan and Wisconsin. Two of my great-great grandfathers fought in the Civil War, and one died in Andersonville as did a great-great-great grandfather's nephew. I am proud that my family includes John Brown and Ulysses Grant. For centuries my ancestors and their descendants were appalled and opposed to slavery and had nothing to do with either that or white supremacy or racism except risking their lives and giving their "last full measure of devotion" to the cause of ending it.

You compare the US to South Africa, but I hail from Namibia, okay it is white Namibia, but it is largely free of aparteid or white supremacist attitudes.

And actually it is quite easy for everybody or almost everybody to be wrong. I asked a very difficult question about the CPI on an economics exam, and about 95% of the class got it wrong. They were all mad at me, but it really did not impact the curve at all. In another class I asked what I thought was a gimme question - what does OSHA mean? It was barely mentioned in the chapter, but I thought any person watching the news would have heard of OSHA, but again 95% of my business class got it wrong. Go figure. And I understand that 19% of Americans think they are in the top 1%. Most of them are wrong.

Again, I do not equate blindness with "refusal to see" or "refusal to look at" but a perhaps rarer "inability to see" at least until we have our noses rubbed in it, and maybe not even then.

[Karenina]

158. Your expression of the belief that

“...it is white Namibia, but it is largely free of aparteid or white supremacist attitudes..." is quite telling.

[noiretextatique]

163. telling...indeed

it's like not seeing rice on snow.

[Karenina]

168. 'Specially not after some

"scattered flurries." :rofl:

[noiretextatique]

162. oh brother...there was APARTHEID in namibia too

yes...you CHOOSE to be blind even to that because your PRIVILEGE gives you that option.
choose whatever legacy you wish, and ignore as all the malicious stuff if you want...that is also a part of your privilege.

[lonestarnot]

25. Then DON'T!

[msmcghee]

28. IMO both racism and class-ism . .

. . come from the same psychological mindset in our minds. Whether a person exhibits one or both of those . . or some other version of other-ism simply depends on a person's life circumstances and environment.

But in any case, there are people who have a strong need to elevate their own status by hatefully denigrating others. It is a common psychologically conservative mindset that often accompanies other conservative (socially harmful) beliefs.

It is rooted in a person's social insecurity. They compensate by identifying with the existing power structure in order to reinforce their feelings of belonging to it, the status quo. The other side of the coin is a strong intolerance toward perceived out-groups in that society.

In my experience it is a visceral need in these people that can not be controlled - although it can be temporarily hidden under some social circumstances.

NOLA is one of the most racist places I have ever been. I grew up in N. Texas and I've traveled a lot through the south since then. But I have been shocked at the matter-of-fact way that racism is tolerated in the white community there and the outright displays of racial hostility by some whites in NO - and also with the quiet acceptance of the blacks there.

But, whether it's called racism or classism, they both emanate from the same putrid cesspool of hatred that exists in many people's minds.

[msmcghee]

31. I should add that growing up in the South . .

. . at least when I did, was a crash course in institutionalized class insecurity for a white teenager. The school systems foster a vicious classism among the students where there's a lot of emphasis and money spent on the upper-class student. The ones who make up the football team or the cheer-leading squad for example. And the other students are taught that their station in life is to pay the proper adoration - or be seen as an outsider.

It is quite natural then for some young people who have been marginalized and made to feel like second-class shit in school - to kick the next dog down on that social ladder. That means poor whites as well as blacks.

And for poor whites, kicking the black man and the occasional dog is their only chance to feel better than shit themselves - in a society where the shit always rolls downhill to what was called nigger-town in my days.

[Stinky The Clown]

34. Amen!

Racisim is on the upswing in this country, due in large part to the leadership. Hate and venom, and the closely related sickness of racism, have been the stuff of power and have been the rungs of the ladder used to get there.

NO ONE can convince me that racisim was not a factor in the New Orleans (specifically) fiasco. No other area saw its citizens vilified as happened to the people of New Orleans.

Black

It is a skin color, not a measure.

We can talk about classism all we want, but it grows from racisim. Racisim is the king of the hate heap.

Some of it is soft and well meaning (tolerance or patronizing) and some of it is hard (discrimination, overt hatred), but all of it is wrong. Alive and well, to be sure, but wrong.

[Jamastiene]

36. Racism is alive and well. And somtimes the most heartbreaking form

of racism is ignorance to that sort of racism that is present, but almost hidden in inflections of how the person says something. In other words, a person doesn't have to bomb a church or say out and out racial slurs for it to be racism. You have to be familiar with the culture and methods of subtle racist policies in any area to know it when you see it. It's there.

[bobbieinok]

64. in 60s in grad school in CA....only I from OK, TX + guy from MS saw

the racism all around in northern CA

all the rest of our fellow white grad students thought/stated it was a southern problem

....one white guy even said if the military just stayed in the south for a few years (like 10,000 sent by JFK to Oxford MS when a black man integrated the Ole Miss Law School), then the problem would be solved

!!!!!!!!!!!

[Q]

37. Perhaps those you thought were 'liberal' really aren't after all?

?

[LoZoccolo]

38. There are no liberals who deny racism. n/t

[applegrove]

43. I don't think people deny racism. I think we just see it as more than

that. If you look at babies & old people... and only see skin... babies & old people who are thirsty..your problem is not racism. Your have a problem with humanity. All you see are objects.

And when you see that and then make excuses by "blaming these victims because they didn't get out" again it is more than racism.

To a Rove, all people are just things that are moved about. Rove is after a percentage of the AA vote (Christians) because that will add to his "base". And give him more power over places like Ohio.

So he moves black people around depending on their use.

In New Orleans, standing down and playing a power-struggle, aloud * to commune with his base of racists & people afraid of black crime.

Yes it was racism. Racism when that works and love & respect when that works. People are just things to be used.

[Guaranteed]

76. Racism is more than just bad things happening to black people.

The problem is that racism is a much more broad concept than people are typically able to relate to, or even point out, and is often disguised as classism (which is just as much bullshit as racism- MLK, Jr. saw this as well). This makes it difficult for the masses to identify.

Racism is the institutional oppression of a certain race of people. However, if people don't see outright *prejudice*, which is much easier to recognize (and *has actually been exhibited* by people such as Barbara Bush during this tragedy), they mix up the concepts and assume that there is no racism involved in a situation. That's why you don't see much support from people for those who are calling what happened in New Orleans racism.

My personal opinion is that racism wasn't involved in the actual response to the hurricane. There quite probably was classism involved, in that there was nobody there to speak up to the federal government for the poor people who were left behind. But racism most DEFINITELY played a factor in this- because it's never truly "stopped." For decades upon decades, black people in New Orleans have not been able to get a fair shake in order to give themselves the opportunities that the middle and upper class had, which allowed them to get out of the city before the hurricane hit.

Here's the thing, though- This classism and subsequent racism IS the neocon philosophy. It's what we've been dealing with since Lee Atwater and his southern strategy. Vilify the poor and "colored" folks in order to SHIFT BLAME when people see the consequences of corporate pillaging. As Marx would say, they're *using the middle class* as a buffer.

It's the middle class. It grew under Clinton, and the Repukes took advantage. The second we get people out of the ditch, the Repukes grab them. It's just never-ending.

[H2O Man]

144. Racism is much more

than just the institutional oppression of one race of people. It is prejudice based on race.

[Guaranteed]

157. Prejudice and racism are different concepts.

There can be prejudice involved in racism, but it's not a prerequisite for racism.

Similarly, not all prejudice involves racism. There are times when prejudice is clearly present, but racism isn't even possible.

[H2O Man]

159. No.

Prejudice encompasses more, in the sense that a person can have pre-judged any number of things. But all racism is prejudice, and not all racism is one race being oppressed by a more powerful one. There has been a false teaching in America that only whites could be racist, because only they had the "power." Ignorance and hatred are not limited to those in power.

[Guaranteed]

161. No- yes. The ignorance and hatred are the prejudice aspects of racism

when prejudice is involved in racism (which it usually is- it's what is typically used to hold UP racism). But not all racism HAS to have prejudice behind it. It just typically does because it's much more effective with prejudice backing it up.

However, all racism DOES have to have the power behind it to actually oppress someone, one way or another. Otherwise, even if someone wants it to exist, it doesn't. Prejudice can most definitely still be there, though, and probably is in such a case.

[H2O Man]

173. Regarding the 2nd paragraph ....

not true at all. Power is not necessary.

[Zhade]

45. I think it's racist not to listen to those who recognize real racism.

To me, refusal to listen to, say, a black man about how racism still happens in the U.S. is a form of racism itself - "oh, they don't know what they're talking about" or "they always blow it out of proportion" are just a couple of the racist things I've heard from otherwise good people who won't admit the the ongoing reality of racism.

I think wishful thinking plays a huge part in the "racism is over" blind spot many Americans share.

[H2O Man]

46. Intersting.

I worked at a mental health clinic in upstate New York. The county was mainly white, with some yellow, red, brown, and black people. There was a significant amount of poverty in the county, with most of it being multi-generational in white families.

A mental health clinic tends to have intelligent, open-minded employees. Ours was no exception. It is interesting to note, however, that in all the years I worked there, there was only one black PhD (part-time); one black therapist; one brown therapist; and one brown secretary. Combined, they may have worked at the clinic for about a year in the decades I was there.

There were a number of times when we staffed cases involving non-white folks, of course, and these discussions often involved looking at how race was a factor. There were times when I would talk at length about my own family, and the experiences that people of color tend to have. It's not that it is every day, or that most white people are going out of their way to be a problem. But I can easily list a hundred incidents that have happened in which white people's racism has affected and infected my extended family.

In my family's case, it usually isn't as much a problem as it might be for others. Usually. But even a black attorney is a "suspect" when he goes shopping in a store where he is not known, 'cause you know their kind is prone to stealing. Or a person behind the counter of a store in your own town might tell a "nigger joke" when my 16-year old nephew is in line. Maybe the cops will handcuff an honor role student as he walks a main street in the community he has always lived in, because there was a report of a black kid escaping from a detention center 50 miles away (I am not joking).

These were some of the milder examples I would tell my co-workers. A number of them would tell me that they had no idea that things were still this bad. And of course, I'd tell them that I could list many, many more examples of good and decent interaction between local white folk and my extended family. But they were smart enough, and insightful enough, to realize that despite the numerous examples of good interactions, people of color still have a wide range of experiences -- insulting, degrading, humiliating, threatening, and often violent -- that are evidence that we are still a racist society.

[G_j]

62. amen

we've interacted enough here that I trust you know I am not merely attacking a certain mindset for the sake of venting anger. I truly want to use this opportunity where racism is up in the national dialog, to learn and grow as a people. It seems though that we can't move on to higher ground without at least acknowledging the illness.
Lao Tzu said something to the effect of "he who knows he is sick, is not so sick"

My deepest wish is for America to grow from this tragedy. That poverty and racism are being discussed in the open is an opportunity that doesn't come lightly. If we can be courageous and look at ourselves, we can better ourselves.

[H2O Man]

137. Regarding the OP:

I agree with it 100%. And the only way that our nation is going to move forward on the issue is from people like yourself taking a firm stance. I do not think that there is any significant differences in the way you andI view and approach this issue.

[Zhade]

72. I've experienced some of what you're speaking of, only with homophobia.

I'm bisexual, and you may be aware that I had a run-in with a co-worker some months back (if not, it was posted in the GLBT forum here). In a way, your comments on the "casual racism" displayed by people who don't even realize what they're saying reminds me of what happened between he and I - except that, instead of skin color or ethnicity, it had to do with his disparaging remarks regarding my (unknown to him at the time) sexual orientation.

Of course, I did not sit still for his remarks, and when it happened again the next week, the issue went up the ladder. Eventually the guy was suspended, in part for his remarks. I kind of surprised myself, because this was my first real experience with homophobia (I'm ethnically mixed, so I've dealt with racism before, mostly as a kid) and I handled it better than I thought I might.

The incident made me think long and hard about bigotry in general - would he have made those remarks had he known I was bisexual? Unlike ethnicity, sexual orientation is not always easy to spot on the surface, and it makes me wonder if racism is just more hidden than it used to be, since it is socially frowned upon (though it's making a comeback under the current fascists in power).

At any rate, something worth pondering. No matter what the flavor of bigotry, I think we can all agree that it tastes foul.

[H2O Man]

138. The prejudice

against people for their sexuality is the same strain as that against people for their color, ethnicity, religion/lack thereof, language, etc. It's the same disease.

[Guaranteed]

77. I think MLK had the right idea.

It ultimately comes down to a class issue. That's where we have to strike. It's too difficult to identify true institutional racism nowadays because it just gets disguised as classism, with poor people being vilified as "welfare queens" and whatnot.

[Carni]

47. Oh God don't get me started

I work for and with 90% African American clients from all social backgrounds.

I am white and there is definitely racism towards blacks even by white liberals. I don't think people even realize they are doing it (in most cases with Liberals I mean)

New Orleans had a wonderful thing going amongst it's inhabitants--it was such a mixed city that it was truly a melting pot of all types of people. Few people anywhere else in the country get that vibe.

My feeling is we are all Americans and we need to get it together.

I think in the end whites are tougher on blacks than vice versa

[Iktomiwicasa]

48. Democrats aren't our friends either

I hate to say it, but from my perspective I cannot tell much difference between democrats and republicans. Niether one has made the barest attempt to do justice to my people. I see them as two sides of the same coin....parties of the dominant culture who are completely at odds with our traditional values and way of life. I'll be happy when all the white mans governments are gone from this land.

[Name removed]

49. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[scarletwoman]

52. You are violating DU rules.

Who are you to dismiss out of hand the view of someone outside your comfy white world? You do not know how to listen to what this person has to say -- he is speaking his own truth. Do not be so quick to judge.

sw

[Iktomiwicasa]

54. Freeper?

Sorry, I don't know what a "freeper" is. As for me "getting a room for myself", I'd ask you to use the same critical lens on your own party that you use on the opposition. For the record, I am niether democrat nor republican, and I did not vote for Bush (idiot) or Kerry (dope).

[scarletwoman]

60. That person spoke in ignorance.

("Spiderman") ;-)

sw

[G_j]

65. welcome to DU Iktomiwicasa!

folks can get a little jumpy here when you have a low post count.

I agree with you about our two party system for the most part.
There are a few Democrats though that I feel represent me, they are the Congressional Black Caucus and half a handful of others.
Still, the system is seriously broken and the deck is stacked.
I'm not really convinced it can be saved at this point.
I guess we'll see..

[scarletwoman]

51. I hear you.

The dominant culture sees itself as the default setting for humanity, yet it is the most imbalanced, dysfunctional and destructive culture on this planet. There is little hope that a government of people with this mindset will ever be just.

Welcome to DU! I hope you will stay around and be an voice for your people.

sw

[G_j]

56. ..sees itself as the default setting for humanity

wow, ain't that the truth!
And everyone else is just expected to 'get over it' and face reality.

There will always be poverty. There will always be war.
Shut up and accept that this is the way it is.
We would all like it to be better, we all want equality, we all hate pollution, we all want peace, but we gotta face the "facts"

[scarletwoman]

63. I've tried over and over again to point that out. More in RL than here.

Members of the dominant culture have a great deal of difficulty in "getting it". They swim inside a great pool of cultural assumptions that are as invisible to them as water is to the fish. It's just "the way it is".

Liberal racism is probably the most pernicious of all. They are so sure that they couldn't possibly be racist that they will deny and get defensive when you try to point it out. But being "liberal" does not somehow automatically remove one from the millieu of the unconscious cultural assumptions that characterizes being white.

If anything, the tendency is to go even farther into paternalism and condescenion -- "Liberal guilt" morphs into "white mans burden".

sw

[G_j]

67. yes, yes

and I feel if we don't use an opportunity such as this to grow, we may slide further into cementing our assumptions/ignorance.
As MLK pointed out there are certain moments in history where the opportunity must be seized. First we must admit there is something to be learned, something to be healed.

[scarletwoman]

69. "First we must admit there is something to be learned..."

It's been an exceedingly disturbing couple weeks. First, the great mass of the underclass was suddenly and dramatically made visible.

But THEN, came this backlash of undisguised racism -- like all the masks came off, and all the vile, festering bigotry, fear and hatred that has been simmering beneath the surface of "polite society" suddenly came bursting out into the open.

I despair for this country, I really do. It may be that among US, there can be learning and healing, but as long as those in power rule by division and fear, true progress for the county at large will be held back.

But yes, let us make this a time of opportunity -- what else is there to do?

sw

[G_j]

71. as long as those in power rule by division and fear

We must somehow diminish that power and I have no idea how!
Perhaps we are chipping away at it, but it certainly is not enough.
As we speak, these same interests are grabbing up water and privatizing it around the world. Interesting that water would be a major factor in the Katrina disaster.

Can we claim for ourselves more power to counteract these 'interests'?
We have a long way to go before we become brave enough to claim that power.

Power To The people

[alarcojon]

98. Well put!

I like to use examples from pop culture - more people seem to "get" them. For instance, people think of "the Cosby Show" as a "black show" but would never think of "Friends" as a "white show." They perceive "Friends" as just being about people, while Cosby was about black people.

[scarletwoman]

127. Wow! That's an excellent analogy!

That's precisely what I'm talking about. Thank you, it's an example I will make use of in the future.

sw

[Redleg]

104. Nice way to stereotype a whole group of people based on party affiliation

It's so ironic that this thread is about racism and stereotyping.

[scarletwoman]

129. Stereotype WHAT "group of people"? He was talking about government!

...from my perspective I cannot tell much difference between democrats and republicans. Niether one has made the barest attempt to do justice to my people. I see them as two sides of the same coin....parties of the dominant culture who are completely at odds with our traditional values and way of life.

The poster is Lakota, his observation that "white mans government" has not done justice by his people is dead on accurate.

It really IS "ironic" that an American Indian is jumped on and accused of "stereotyping" in a thread about racism.

sw

[noiretextatique]

166. iroinic, indeed

considering the accuracy of the statement, and considering the statement also applies to all those left behind by classism. since some are still insisting it's all about class, i really can't believe anyone is so naive as to believe classism is just a republican party problem.

[bobbieinok]

59. I don't understand those who clam that US is now a raceless society

as a white (60+ woman), I really do not understand people like Ward? Connerly and others who as far as I can tell live in a total state of denial (and maybe self hate???....but that I prevented by my race from judging)

[MoonRiver]

66. I'm convinced the DLC is alive and well on DU.

And another thing. * apologists abound.

[Cleita]

75. I had an epiphany after Katrina, the criminal treatment of

the poor in the aftermath and finally the Louis Vuitton racist slander on the cable news channel. This overt racism is the cancer that got us where we are are today. If the majority of voters who gave GWB enough of an edge for his minions to cheat him in the rest of the way into office weren't racist he wouldn't have gotten 10% of the vote.

It's been covert racism and bigotry all these years that created the cult followings of Limbaugh, Hannity and O'Reilly. It was what created the propaganda MSM we have today. Racism appeals to entitled white people. There is no doubt of it in my mind anymore.

This is the cancer that has grown that enabled this neo-fascist corporate regime to usurp our government. Damn this country needs a heavy dose of racist busting chemotherapy or it will die.

Time to recognize the real cancer in our system.

[G_j]

78. and something

I neglected to include in the scenario, is the war!
The racism of that was obvious from the beginning.
We are in it up to our necks I'm afraid.

btw, I'm glad you mentioned this:
covert racism and bigotry all these years created the cult followings of Limbaugh, Hannity and O'Reilly.

bingo!

[Usrename]

86. I'd like to make a rather clinical distinction between overt racism

or bigotry and something that I think is very different which is xenophobia. I believe in a great body of research that shows human brains are "wired" for certain behavior. Some of the experimentation and research was unethical and much was performed by the Nazis and by other governments after the war in an attempt to understand the Holocaust. This was in keeping with the 'never again' mentality after the war.

Language is pre-wired into our brains. Twins, kept isolated from birth develop their own language. They invent it at the same age as normal kids begin to speak. Similar to American Sign Language.

If you accept this, then it is also proven that humans are wired to have a fear of other races, or strangers, or people who are different. Many theories arose after the war that Hitler had been able to tap into this part of the human psyche. This shit is disturbing to talk about, but I think it is relevant.

I think I know that I am not truely colorblind as to race. But I think I have an awareness of this xenophobic portion of my monkey hindbrain. Consciously at first, but then by second nature, it is possible to self-govern those feelings. Growing up in the south during desegregation was very different than what is happening now. This is subliminal and segregation was definitely 'in your face'. Many of my childhood friends and their families were overtly racist. This neo-con phenomonon is much more dangerous I think. It scares me.

[Freedomfried]

79. I'm not a racist, because I have lots of "black friends"

thats the tip off

[alarcojon]

109. This site seems appropriate to mention here

warning for the satirically impaired - It's satire!!

http://www.blackpeopleloveus.com/

[msmcghee]

81. I just got back from a gig and caught up with this thread.

I am often dismayed at the attitude of many posters at DU who like to show how non-racist they are by pointing out the hidden racism (learned cultural biases) of other DU members.

There are several posts like that in this thread.

A primary reason that Dems are the minority party right now is because of Lyndon Johnson's signing of the Civil Rights Act.

Upon signing the Civil Rights Act of 1964, Lyndon Johnson is said to have told aide Bill Moyers, "I think we have just delivered the South to the Republican Party for a long time to come."

The politically smart thing for Dems (Johnson) to do would have been go along with the southern bigots and retain their blanket power in the south. Instead Johnson did what was right. And gave a perfect opening to the Repukes to reverse things politically - which they've done now. With Repukes in control of both houses of congress, the presidency and soon the Supreme Court - we can now see the ultimate result of Johnson's decision (representing the majority Democratic voters who put him power) to do the right thing for America 39 years ago.

Yet now, because some liberals aren't pure enough in their political correctness, they are referred to as the "real insidious side of racism".

Some people who are not racist are still going to see black culture as different from their own. They will see differences in values and worldview. Recognizing cultural differences is not racism. Those differences can be celebrated, they can be admired or ignored. They can even be feared - although I doubt many liberals do that.

But racism is not recognizing differences. Racism is believing that those differences mean that one race is superior to the other - or deserves more from society.

There is real racism out there - as exhibited blatantly last week by many in the Repuke leadership - even the president's mother. Racism that arguably may be responsible for some large part of the deaths in NOLA.

I don't understand why some here feel the need to attack their fellow liberals - who all want to see equality of opportunity and education, health care and all else - across the board for all Americans regardless of color.

Maybe someone here can explain to me why liberals who recognize cultural differences but still support equality for all races are more dangerous than Trent Lott, Tom Delay and George Bush. I'm just not getting it.

[noiretextatique]

93. what "cultural diffrerences" are you talking about?

what is "black culture?"
what is "white culture?"
and are the perceptions of these differences you keep talking about...is that in any way objective? or are those perceptions a part of the dynamic of racism? i am a black, female accountant with an MBA...what "cutlural differences" would you ascribe to me?
btw, johnson did "the right thing" because americans saw dogs unleashed on black people on television, and because people were being murdered for trying to eat at lunch counter or register people to vote or go to school.
some wanted to continue their "way of life," the one that denied black people the basic rights of citzenship...something that had been going on for a few hundred years, btw.

[msmcghee]

106. Hi norietblu . . to answer your good questions . .

what is "black culture?"
what is "white culture?"

There really is not one of those but many of each. One interesting way to gauge their existence is by the different types of entertainment that are available to reinforce these sub-cultures.

TV shows for example. I don't watch a lot of TV but I suspect the demographics for 20 something sit-coms is quite different for shows with an all-white cast of characters and shows with an all black cast. i.e. I doubt many whites watch the black show and vice versa.

That doesn't mean that each group hates the other (or are racists) - just that people watch those shows (among other reasons) to get feedback of their own subcultural values. The show says to each group - this is how "my people" act and react to situations in their lives. Watching the other culture's program does not provide that feedback and thats why few do so. I suspect it can even be disorienting and vaguely threatening for some who are very insecure of their place in their own sub-culture.

Another one is music. The black rap scene is not the same as the bluegrass music scene, for example. I have attended a dozen or so bluegrass music festivals a year for the last ten years or so and I can not remember seeing a black person participating in one of these. And I live in the northwest - not the south.

These are not examples of racism. They are examples of people following their own inclinations to entertainment - finding a place within a sub-culture that feels good, for whatever reasons.

BTW - I also like jazz. Most jazz bands have black musicians in them. The jazz scene is an example of a sub-culture where both whites and blacks feel comfortable getting the same cultural feedback.

i am a black, female accountant with an MBA...what "cultural differences" would you ascribe to me?

I have no idea - unless you want to tell me more about your life. We may be very much alike - or very different in a cultural sense. Because you are a liberal and you like to post at DU I know we probably have some things in common. We may have no "cultural differences" or many.

Added on edit: If we do have cultural differences they could follow our skin color - or they could follow other things - like I don't hang with many accountants but I do know a few professional fiddlers. I guess it depends on whether we think skin color is an important part of who we are - or not.

The important thing in my mind - is to not allow cultural differences of any kind to cause me to mistrust you or dislike you. I learned at an early age how wrong I could be to judge anyone by their outward appearance, or their apparent wealth, things like that. I have found that some people who look different or who don't have much money can be the most interesting people in the world and valuable friends.

I've also found that people who make a big deal out of belonging to some sub-cultural group and defend their place in that group by always wearing the right clothes and saying the right things - are often the biggest jerks in the world - that goes for blacks and whites. I don't know what that makes me - maybe just smarter than before I figured that out.

I guess that's one reason why I'm a liberal (and why most of the people here at DU are also liberals). It's because we've learned to be open, tolerant and accepting of others in life - regardless of skin color, etc. - until they show us a reason why we shouldn't be.

I think many conservatives do the opposite. I had an uncle who was like that. He'd have a visceral reaction to people of color - or people who looked like they were poor of any color. He'd go out of his way to imagine them as bad people - until they showed him a reason to believe otherwise. Except for a few trolls I doubt that many DU regulars are like that at all.

I'll leave the discussion of Johnson's legacy for another day - but I just wish that blacks who have every reason to be extremely pissed off in this world and in this country - could direct their anger at those who want to "keep the black man down" as the song goes.

People like me who recognize sub-cultural differences are not racists. We are more are on your side than you can imagine. I despise racism wherever I find it. To me it's an example of cowardly bullying behavior - and I truly hate bullies. I actually feel a hurt inside me when I read posts here at DU that accuse (people like) me of being some kind of insidious racist - just because I don't deny that there are sub-cultural differences in our society that follow skin color.

I don't expect gratitude for being a tolerant person. That's just the way I believe everyone should conduct their lives. But I don't expect to be called a racist either - just because I recognize that sub-cultural differences exist in our society that follow skin color - and I resent it.

To me those differences are just part of what makes life fascinating and worthwhile. I would hate a world where everyone looked and acted the same and had the same cultural values.

[noiretextatique]

118. no one called you a racist in this thread

so i am curious as to why you would take the stance that you have been singled out or injured by this thread.

noticing cultural differences isn't racist at all...it's enlightened. people aren't the same, they aren't meant to be the same, and they never will be the same. but the differences are mostly superficial, as is culture, imho. the ties that bind us are our common humanity, and our common experiences as humans.
i live in a very diverse area with lots of people from all over the place. i don't think preferences for music or clothing styles is racist, but the reaction to and depiction of certain styles is sometimes very racist.

television...well, at least it's more realistic now, particularly since there are people writing and producing about themselves, vs. the days of shows like "good times."

i just wanted to point out to you, as you obviously know from your reply, that there is no such thing as "black culture" or "white culture." you could no more ascribe characteristics or values to me just because i am black than i could to you just because you are white.
i'm a fan of jazz also, in part because its rich cultural context, including the jim crow culture that spawned it...it has been called "america's classical music." i grew up listening almost exclusively to r&b and blues, but as i was exposed to other music in high school and college, i learned to like jazz, rock and classical too. if i had to listen to bluegrass, i'd probably learn to like it too :D

thank for the response.

[msmcghee]

120. This is a very interesting thread . . thanks for your response.

For you and Cleita both . . I'm not offering this as an argumant, just a point of view. I'm sure I agree with you on everything that's significant here. But . .

There is a theme in many of the posts above that a person can be racist without the intention to be racist. They usually use an example of someone noticing a skin-color based cultural difference.

Let me offer an outrageous example. What if we were watching a TV show together of a popular black rapper. What if I made the following comment:

"That guy and his backup group have the most amazing sense of rhythm."

Now, how many people here would believe I was a racist for saying that?

I'll tell you something. I have often had that thought while watching black performers. When I hear some African or many of the South American musical styles from countries with large mixed and/or black populations - I am often amazed at the complex exciting rythms that they express in their music.

As a part time music teacher I deal with students who have rhythm problems. After many years of this I suspect strongly that rhythm is something like speech. We are born with a strong instinct to internalize rhythm's underlying rules at a very early age - probably at the same time we internalize speech rules because they are closely related - and we reinforce both as we grow older as a form of cultural identity. Invariably, students with rhythm problems were not exposed to a rich rhythmic vocabulary at that young age when they were learning to talk. Their parents probably didn't listen to much music at all.

Notice I said nothing about race. In fact, I think any white person growing up in that environment would develop the same rhythmic vocabulary - and just as easily. Obviously, there are many good white musicians who express complex rhythmic structures in their music.

Yet, I'm sure many here would maintain that I was a racist for appreciating the cultural basis for some of the amazing and wonderful rhythms that seem to be dominated by black culture these days.

I'm just saying let's celebrate each other's being here and sharing this planet - in all our cultural diversity and beauty. If racism (which I define as treating someone differently because of their race) pokes up it's ugly head, which it probably will - we'll see it and deal with it. But let's not be looking for racists under every DU baseball cap. If we do that the racists win.

;)

[noiretextatique]

148. i think you are wrong, to be honest

i wouldn't consider the examples you gave racist at all, and though some here might, i don't think the majority would either.
and as you mention, having rythym is not a cultural difference anyway.
"those stupid ni&*4ers sure can dance"...that i'd consider racist.
i do not believe adults generally act without intention, my personal belief. i do think people make mistakes, and are perhaps insensitive, but i don't think people go around making racist statements unless they truly hold racist beliefs. conversely, people who don't have racist beliefs generally don't make racist statements...it's pretty darn simple.
as to the phenonmenon of the supposed unawareness of one's attitudes and beliefs, mostly i think that is an excuse. a cultural excuse that's pretty popular, actually.
being racist isn't always perceived as a problem, but being called a racist is often perceived as a problem...as the race card or the r word or crying racism, etc.
so some people tend to react to the word so they don't have to be aware of themselves, and often, others make excuses for them..."they didn't know what they were saying," "they didn't mean it that way," "you're being too sensitive" "pc police," etc.
i am having an exchange with someone in this thread who fits this pattern. no matter how many people tell him his "r-card" problem *might* be with him (and his brother too, apparently), he refuses to hear that, and insists that all the people who keep accusing him are the problem. he thinks being called a racist is malicious, but he doesn't recall what he said, on at least two different occasions with two different people, to illicit the SAME response, though of course he doesn't think what he said was malicious. and then he brought up that the same thing happened to his brother.
tell me: has anyone ever called you a racist? because i tell you what, in 4 years of posting here, i have only called a few people racist...only four that i can think of. all deserved it, and all were eventually banned. and in the real world, i don't think i've ever called anyone a racist. then again, people are not as vocal in the real world as they are online.

[Cleita]

110. Some points I disagree with you.

A primary reason that Dems are the minority party right now is because of Lyndon Johnson's signing of the Civil Rights Act.

We are not a minority party. We really don’t know how the neo-cons seized power, but it seems they used means outside of the election system to do so. So did the Nazis in Germany. They were never a majority party although they became the majority power in Germany, a vast difference. There still are more registered Democrats that Republicans in this country.

Upon signing the Civil Rights Act of 1964, Lyndon Johnson is said to have told aide Bill Moyers, "I think we have just delivered the South to the Republican Party for a long time to come."

The politically smart thing for Dems (Johnson) to do would have been go along with the southern bigots and retain their blanket power in the south. Instead Johnson did what was right. And gave a perfect opening to the Repukes to reverse things politically - which they've done now. With Repukes in control of both houses of congress, the presidency and soon the Supreme Court - we can now see the ultimate result of Johnson's decision (representing the majority Democratic voters who put him power) to do the right thing for America 39 years ago.

This made no difference because in the process of being Democrats this would have been done down the road anyway by another Democratic president. It’s because we can’t call ourselves Democrats unless we grant equality to everyone.

Maybe someone here can explain to me why liberals who recognize cultural differences but still support equality for all races are more dangerous than Trent Lott, Tom Delay and George Bush. I'm just not getting it.

Cultural differences are in the head of the beholder. Segregation often creates pockets of language and other differences but this is among white people as well as other ethnicities. It’s isolation pockets that make this happen, not racial differences. Segregation is what contributed to these so-called cultural differences not race.

[kwassa]

112. Cleita made a deep observation here

"Cultural differences are in the head of the beholder. Segregation often creates pockets of language and other differences but this is among white people as well as other ethnicities. It’s isolation pockets that make this happen, not racial differences. Segregation is what contributed to these so-called cultural differences not race."

Absolutely 100% correct, and if you look at all the different cultures around the world, you would see that they developed different cultures because they were isolated and segregated from other groups of people, and developed their cultures independently.

What is changing everything now, really, is modern transportation. Any member of a culture group can be anyplace in the world in a few hours.

[msmcghee]

114. I disagree.

In my son's high school a few years ago in a small town in North Idaho - there were the jocks, the ropers (cowboys) and the dopers (pot smokers).

Each of these groups was culturally very different from each other. There was also an undercurrent of animosity and envy between them. They went to different parties, dressed differently, used different words and phrases to describe some things, different haircuts, etc.

There was no isolation. They were forced to spend several hours a day with each other five days a week. People identify with one cultural group or another as an extension of their own need for identity and (paradoxically) individuality.

Look at prisons - possibly the least isolated environment one could imagine. Thousands of prisoners are forced to spend years of their lives - 24 hours a day - in crowded close proximity to each other. Yet, prisons are possibly the most violently segregated environments in the world. Where an innocent violation of cultural separation can get you killed.

There are dozens of distinct cultural groups in the US today that are separated by clothing styles, idioms, accent, job type, education - and yes skin color - as well as various combinations of these.

These are not necessarily bad - as long as mutual respect is granted by each to the others. They are just free people finding a cultural identity that fits them.

What makes some of them bad - is when people of a psychologically conservative mindset join together. Invariably hatred and often violence toward outgroups will be the result. The white supremacy movement is a good example of that - but there are others blossoming as we speak, encouraged by our xenophobic Republican leadership.

A psychological conservative has several characteristics: Identifying with the status quo, intolerance toward differences or disagreements with the status quo, justification and support of treating people differently based on outward appearance like skin color, etc.

What I'm trying to say is that there are people in this world who are psychologically unsuited to living in a free society with others. They are designed to cause problems - hatred between cultural groups in any society. That's how they are.

Let's focus our attention on understanding the psychological reasons for this - and figuring out effective ways to deal with it - not blaming fellow liberals who admit to cultural differences that follow skin color - in our silly efforts to be more "unracist" than thou.

[kwassa]

117. These aren't different cultural groups but subsets of modern white society

They are all white, they have vastly much more in common than they have in difference, they are not now or ever have been distinct cultures. I think your example is not valid, in my opinion. They can cross cultural lines by changing their clothes.

I am talking of the larger range of human history, of how distinct cultures develop in the first place. This is also what Cleita was talking about.

[Cleita]

121. Well, well, well. You are talking about a place I lived in

for five years. My observations of North Idaho cultural differences as an outsider are this. Idaho pioneer stock is descended from French Canadian trappers, Norwegian and other scandanavian lumberjacks, miners from various white ethnicities and Native Americans. I would venture to say that most northern Idahoans, who can trace their families back to their pioneering ancesters have more than some Native American blood in them even though they look white.

Why do I think this? Well, not that many white people from other states carry medicine bags with them as a matter of routine. Living in Tipis on your land until you can build your farmhouse is often practiced. Hunting and fishing for food, not sport, is how many families survive, who wouldn't in other places. This has created a society of extreme wealth and extreme poverty or the haves and have nots. Even though they all look white, they have been brought up under vastly different circumstance. Many of the poor don't have indoor plumbing yet and electricity. Many belong to cultish religious sects like Mennonites.

Again it's the isolation of the communities within the community that causes this. When kids are all thrown together in school the groups are formed very early on depending on what they learned at home and they will circle their wagons around their social class. Sorry my argument is still valid. When North Idaho starts taxing those people who can afford fancy boats, palatial log cabins, and those who can afford to own their own French Restaurant because they want a decent place to eat, then you will see the cultural differences between these white kids dissolve into one of harmony for all. Also, the employees of that doctor, who owns the restaurant, need to unionize to end the exploitation of the poor shlubs who have to live there year round.

[msmcghee]

123. Hi Cleita. . .

I just had to respond to this:

"Hunting and fishing for food, not sport, is how many families survive, who wouldn't in other places."

I distinctly remember going goose hunting one dark winter morning many years ago well before dawn. There was about 3 inches of fresh snow on the ground and I was riding with a guy who lived in Bonners Ferry. We were sliding along the road in his pickup as he proudly described the $450 dear rifle he just bought. He said it was to provide meat for his family. I didn't say anything at the time. I knew he was just trying to convince me to assuage his guilt - as he was not able to convince his wife who was still very angry.

$450 could have bought him more than enough beef, chicken or pork to last the year and then some . . in grand style in those days. But of course he was being a real "pioneer" with that $450 gun.

I lived there from 1976 through 1999. I arrived in town with my pickup truck full of my few possessions, my wife and son and no job. We eventually managed to make a good life there.

I can tell you there are folks there who manage to get their deer or maybe an elk if they are lucky. But I never found anyone who didn't spend ten times more money on guns and pickups (and days off from work at the mill) than they ever bagged in the woods.

;)

[Cleita]

126. Oh puleeze, I know there are those people.

But I knew so many families out there in the woods who did have to bag their deer, or their elk for their meat for the year and who canned what they grew as well for the rest of the year. That $450 gun will bring in meat for a lot of winters not just one. I personally hate hunting season, because that's when the amateurs come in. I always knew the locals were serious and experienced hunters, not city asses out for the thrill. I have also seen guns sold at swap meets for a lot less than the original purchase.

Also, how are people supposed to get around if they don't have pickup trucks, especially when your job changes with the seasons? We had a four wheel drive. It was very handy for crossing one of the creeks where the bridge had washed out and was never repaired thanks to the Republican government in charge. You know as well as I that you have to truck your own garbage out of most places too. That place is where a truck is a necessity not a phallus symbol.

Yeah, speaking though of money going on boy toys, they've got a long way to go up there too on women's liberation.

[msmcghee]

132. Just to carry on the conversation . .

You said, "I always knew the locals were serious and experienced hunters, not city asses out for the thrill."

Be careful of those stereotypes.

Many of the locals I knew were the ones who thought that grouse hunting was driving around on logging roads with their deer rifle or .22 and a case of beer - looking for grouse that were gravelling up in the evening.

Then at work the next day they'd tell you how that grouse was so dumb it just sat there while they blew it away from 20 feet - out the window of their truck. And then they'd leave it there of course - cause who wants to clean up that carcass when there's still a few beers left. I never saw any city boys come all the way to Bonner county to do that.

The locals were also the ones who liked to deer and elk hunt with booze. There's probably more booze consumed in family elk camps than in the bars that time of year. These are locals who tended to believe that killing their animal was more important than actually using skill to hunt it. I'm sure you've heard, "Oh yeah, I got my deer opening day. I shot it from my back porch so I didn't even need to tag it."

When the occasional hapless hunter was shot by another deer hunter, often a family member - the shooter was more likely than not a local - who just wanted so much to believe that movement in the bush was a deer - that their mind, fortified with several snorts of Brother Jack, completed that fantasy for them.

The local kids were also the ones you'd find up by the falls on Grouse Creek in the springtime spearing the big Kamloops trout that were trying to spawn.

Most of the hunters from out of the area (there weren't that many) were from a city someplace - otherwise they'd be hunting around their home. But they usually spent a lot of money on guides and such or at least gas and were pretty serious about their hunting.

The locals always had bad things to say about "city folks" who came to hunt the area - but it seemed to me that was because they thought that people who actually followed the game regulations were stupid. And there was more than a little Farley Mowat effect in there. Remember how the number of moose carcasses (supposedly killed by wolves) increased exponentially the closer you got to someone's cabin?

But there were some great vegetable gardens there. And there were many local folks who grew up in the area who were excellent hunters and sportsmen. But I thought they were pretty much outnumbered by the jerks.


;-)

[Cleita]

134. No denying the ignorant jerks. I know that happened and

I also knew the guys who grew alfalfa and clover on the edge of their property so that the elk and deer would get used to grazing there and they could go out and bag the bounty from their front porch. I saw a lot of unfair hunting practices both in the north and south. However, I still knew that the alfalfa guys, (one I knew was always drunk so I don't doubt he shot his elk drunk) were feeding their families.

The ones I hated were the bear hunters. They usually came from somewhere else for the season and the practice of treeing them with vicious dogs and then shooting them out of the tree always struck me as barbaric. I don't believe these guys were after bear meat or grease. It was a head on the wall and the whole practice stinks. Hey, I know about the injustices. I lived in Hope on the big lake and made trips into Montana and northeastern Washington often.

Of course I'm a tree hugging liberal anyway and often crossed swords with the locals. But, I became kind of impressed with their knowledge of the woods, not formal education, but a good botanical and zoological knowledge of the area and connection with the seasons. They knew the damage the clear cut logging practices did to the soil the streams and the lakes.

Speaking of fish spawning, we actually carried salmon up Trestle Creek in buckets one year so they could spawn. The lake was too low that year for them to be able to run the ladder and the locals as well as the fishermen realized that if they didn't spawn, there would be no salmon in the lake the following year.

I do miss the place, but it sure needs a big dose of environmental and economic help.

[msmcghee]

139. I definitely share your repulsion of the bear hunters.

Bear hunting with dogs captures every ugly aspect of big gaming hunting I can imagine.

I was a founding member of the local TU (Trout Unlimited) group and worked on many habitat improvement projects around the lake over the years - some on Trestle Creek. I had many friends in Hope. Heck, we might have known each other. PM me if you like.

[Cleita]

140. If you went to Murphy's, you probably knew my husband and me.

We kind of worked in different places around the area in the summer and lived in our trailer wherever we could park. We weren't property owners but maintained a P. O. Box in Hope and tried to live there as much as we could in between jobs. I won't P. M. you but feel free to P. M. me if you think you know me. Most of the people we knew were campground workers like ourselves and I don't know how many are still left.

[msmcghee]

113. Hi Cleita

I said: A primary reason that Dems are the minority party right now is because of Lyndon Johnson's signing of the Civil Rights Act.

You said: We are not a minority party. We really don’t know how the neo-cons seized power, but it seems they used means outside of the election system to do so. So did the Nazis in Germany. They were never a majority party although they became the majority power in Germany, a vast difference. There still are more registered Democrats that Republicans in this country.

Be more tolerant of my statements. Instead of trying to come up with reasons why it might be wrong - you could try to see where it could be right. I was referring to the undisputable fact that we are now "the minority party" in this government - as I fully explained in my post.

Re: The Civl Rights Act of 1964 - You said: This made no difference because in the process of being Democrats this would have been done down the road anyway by another Democratic president. It’s because we can’t call ourselves Democrats unless we grant equality to everyone.

Yes? And so the repukes would be in control now because some other Dem president did what Johnson did in 1964, just a few years later? What's your point?

I said: Maybe someone here can explain to me why liberals who recognize cultural differences but still support equality for all races are more dangerous than Trent Lott, Tom Delay and George Bush. I'm just not getting it.

You said: Cultural differences are in the head of the beholder. Segregation often creates pockets of language and other differences but this is among white people as well as other ethnicities. It’s isolation pockets that make this happen, not racial differences. Segregation is what contributed to these so-called cultural differences not race.

Maybe I'm still just not getting it but I can see no connection between what you said and the question I asked. Please restate your point in a way that I can understand.

[kwassa]

119. You miss the point

msmcghee:
"I said: Maybe someone here can explain to me why liberals who recognize cultural differences but still support equality for all races are more dangerous than Trent Lott, Tom Delay and George Bush. I'm just not getting it."

I don't think anyone said that they were. What people HAVE said is that there are liberal whites who consciously or unconsciously through ignorance, rather than intention, make statements that would come across as racist to the average black person. That is what this thread is about.

[Karenina]

160. Noiretblu dropped a gem here...

"...being racist isn't always perceived as a problem, but being called a racist is often perceived as a problem...as the race card or the r word or crying racism, etc.

so some people tend to react to the word so they don't have to be aware of themselves, and often, others make excuses for them..."they didn't know what they were saying," "they didn't mean it that way," "you're being too sensitive" "pc police," etc."

And this "bunker" mentality holds white denial firmly in place. I'm talking superglue! ;-)

[artemisia1]

82. Well here's from a conservative (real, not Faux) Fellow Traveler who

despises the Republican party and votes Democratic - RACISM IS VERY REAL AND IT IS IMPACTING OUR NATION IN A VERY NEGATIVE AND GREAT MANNER.

[Kickin_Donkey]

83. Oh, it's racism all right ...

It's not classism.

The first thing that hit me as Katrina played out is the racism in the federal government response (or lack thereof) and the racist incidents (keeping New Orleans residents from crossing into a suburb, locking the people in the Superdome, evacuees not wanted in a certain town, confiscation of guns, etc.).

Sometimes you have to call a duck a duck.

I'm not black, but I am a person of color who is acutely sensitive on racial issues. What I'm seeing in Katrina is racism. Race is THE American Question.

Those who can't see it are swimming in a river in Egypt.

[kid a]

85. I hear you!

And I'm surprised by the lack of nominations for our honesty.

[LWolf]

92. Maybe it has to hit closer to home for some to "get" it.

I was thinking about unexpressed racism earlier this week. Even in more "progressive" circles, racism can hide beneath the surface. So much so that I frequently examine myself, and my own reactions, for any hidden biases that might need to be weeded out.

I moved 900 miles north this year, from multi-racial and cultural southern california to a small farming/ranching community almost entirely white. I've met some really wonderful people. While my new class of students is the least diverse I've ever experienced, the few non-white students seem to be completely accepted and integrated into the student population as a whole. Everything seems open. But I found myself wondering...

My oldest friend in the world has 2 biracial kids. Would I want her to move to this community? I taught a much-loved colleague's son for a couple of years with grade-level changes. He keeps in contact with me to let me know what's going on with him. Would I want this incredible young black man and his family to live here? Or any of the students I've loved and nurtured over the years? I'd welcome them with open arms and an open heart, but I'd also be standing between them and any racial bigotry that might come their way. I don't want these young people stained or scarred by it. I'm a confirmed pacifist, but I will stand in the breach to defend them against the poison of racism.

Perhaps that is part of my purpose here; to assist in the smooth evolution of this little rural community.

[G_j]

96. your new community

is very blessed to have you!
thanks for sharing this
:-)

[Mutley]

97. Racism is still very much alive out there, people.

I live in a city (Baltimore) where Kerry got 51.58% of the vote last year (source) and I still see racism all the time. When I first moved into my last house, I asked the landlord about the safety of the neighborhood. His response: "There are only a couple blacks living up around the corner." One day at work a few months ago I was discussing the bad things about my neighborhood with a customer. One of his comments: "There are too many black people moving around here. Their kids act like animals. I mean, kids get in trouble, but come on! (paraphrase, I can't remember the exact quote)" In this case I was thinking about the crack house down the street from mine, owned by a WHITE family. He obviously had different ideas.

Recently my SO (Vietnamese) and I (white) were looking for an apartment. People were very rude and I feel as though many people turned us down for being an interracial couple. Here's the full story.

These are only three examples from the last few years, and I live in a blue state. I can only imagine what it's like in much less "progressive" areas.

[librechik]

105. don't hold it, give them a tongue lashing

or at least speak up. No need to vent, just a reasonable observation or too, humbly and respectfully given. I like the phrase "with all due respect," it makes people listen to you and realize you are not just spouting off. You'll feel better, trust me!

[McCamy Taylor]

107. Do regional differences explain why some liberals dont "get" racism?

For instance african americans make more than the average income in New Mexico so liberals from that state might not "get" racism against blacks the way they would racism against native Americans.

Some places are as white as mayonaise, so liberals who live there might have no real life experience with racism at all. Or they might be all brown or all some other color.

Any urban liberal who denies the existence of racism has a screw loose.

[omega minimo]

108. DUscussion w/link to strong NewsHour discussion on this

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x2080648

:bounce:

[buzzsaw_23]

150. Thanks for your excellent post

Liberal elites and those who aspire for affluence have a myriad of rationales and deflections to avoid and/or deny your astute observations. Don't hold your tongue. Silence kills.

Comments from Tom Dispatch:
Now, try this passage: "The evacuation of New Orleans in the face of hurricane... looked sinisterly like Strom Thurmond's version of the Rapture. Affluent white people fled the Big Easy in their SUVs, while the old and car-less -- mainly Black -- were left behind in their below-sea-level shotgun shacks and aging tenements to face the watery wrath." Admittedly a vivid description, but certainly commonplace enough at the moment -- except that it, too, was written back in September 2004 by Mike Davis, also for Tomdispatch, and prophetically labeled, "Poor, Black, and Left Behind." It, too, concerned not Katrina's but Ivan's approach to New Orleans. So there we are. It was possible to know then the fundaments of just about everything that's happened now -- and not just from Tomdispatch either.

In the last week, we've seen many of the black poor of New Orleans not only left behind in a new Atlantis, but thousands upon thousands of them -- those who didn't die in their wheelchairs, or on highway overpasses, or in the ill-fated convention center, or unattended and forgotten in their homes -- sent off on what looked very much like a new trail of tears. Right now, above all, New Orleans and the Mississippi coast, as so many reporters have observed with shock, are simply the Bangladesh of North America (after a disastrous set of monsoons), or a Kinshasa (without the resources).

www.tomdispatch.com


Haiti


New Orleans

[G_j]

152. the only way I've bit my tongue

is in controlling my urge to scream a few profanities which is not productive anyway. Actually I have contributed a number of very good articles and interviews including the one linked in the Tomdispatch article you've posted, "Poor, Black, and Left Behind." to discussions here.

It is sort of interesting that the one post where I decided to emotionally vent for a minute got the most attention. I am not criticizing this, it is an emotional issue, the emotions are real and need to be discussed also.

I am very grateful that America is being given an opportunity to look hard at this issue. I look at the posts in this thread and I see some heated discussion but not flames. I think it's good.

[jmm]

155. Thanks for venting.

Racism is a problem. Some areas are just better at hiding it than others. Sure classism is a problem too but I often find the knee jerk reaction to blame racist acts on class is no different than when one utters the phrase I have black friends....

[newspeak]

165. race is spot on

my history professor was a very sophisticated intelligent african-american woman who majored in french history. So in our class we learned European history through french eyes. Anyway she told us a story how when she moved to Sacramento, living in a nice area, how the police would stop her and ask her what she was doing in the neighborhood. Saying that, Malcolm X did say that the unrest in this country would be about class over race. Who knows!

[Wizard777]

171. The next giant step in racial equality.

Is when placing unjust hardships on PEOPLE is a horrible thing to do. We are just so far past the black and white issues and so far behind in the people issues.

[Kerrytravelers]

175. I'm proud to say I'm constantly being educated at DU!

My post from 4-18-05
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=258x1619

Now, understand that I'm well aware that as a white, middle class female, I don't understand at all what others have faced. However, being white, you wouldn't belive what people say in front of me, somehow assuming that I'll be sympathetic to their biases.

Thanks to DU, I have a place to bounce off these terrible comments and get a rational response from people who can educate me in an intelligent and intellectual manner.

Thank God for my Duer friends!

kt