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sungkathak Donating Member (65 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-04-03 06:32 PM
Original message
Arnold's deal with Enron?
Arnold Unplugged - It's hasta la vista to $9 billion if the Governator is selected
Friday, October 3, 2003
E-Mail Article Printer Friendly Version

It's not what Arnold Schwarzenegger did to the girls a decade back that should raise an eyebrow. According to a series of memoranda our office obtained today, it's his dalliance with the boys in a hotel room just two years ago that's the real scandal.

The wannabe governor has yet to deny that on May 17, 2001, at the Peninsula Hotel in Los Angeles, he had consensual political intercourse with Enron chieftain Kenneth Lay. Also frolicking with Arnold and Ken was convicted stock swindler Mike Milken.

Now, thirty-four pages of internal Enron memoranda have just come through this reporter's fax machine tell all about the tryst between Maria's husband and the corporate con men. It turns out that Schwarzenegger knowingly joined the hush-hush encounter as part of a campaign to sabotage a Davis-Bustamante plan to make Enron and other power pirates then ravaging California pay back the $9 billion in illicit profits they carried off.

http://www.gregpalast.com/detail.cfm?artid=283&row=0
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Robin Hood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-04-03 07:01 PM
Response to Original message
1. Since the new rules took place,I swore not post in this forum again.
But I can not believe that this post has gotten to the second page without one comment. This is an out rage!! Davis has been saying all along that this was a Republican power grab, and he wasn't kidiing.

The power cartel don't want to pay back the 9 billion that Bush/Lay stole, and they're recalling Davis to do it. Davis has been preaching it, Arriana has been preaching it, yet the dumb asses in California don't want to hear it, UNFUCKINGBELIEVABLE!!

We need to be all over this. The woman Predator and Hitler loving stuff were pretty out rageous, but this is ridiculus. If that fucking asshole gets elected, we have evidence here to recall the predator.
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realFedUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-04-03 07:05 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. There have been about 6 or so of this same thread today
So if you want to look at the original outrages
they are in LBN.

Look around before posting.
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Robin Hood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-04-03 07:07 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. There were a lot more than 6 or so regarding ahnolds womanizing.
Edited on Sat Oct-04-03 07:12 PM by Liberal_Guerilla
But this is much much bigger.

P.S. I did look around and haven't found much.
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KFC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-04-03 07:14 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. The Palast article is mere conjecture
No proof, just a reference to "internal Enron memos". Not even any quotations from the "memos". And some people here swallow that shit whole.
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Robin Hood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-04-03 07:18 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. Here are the internal memos.
http://www.consumerwatchdog.org/utilities/rp/rp003709.pdf

I'm sure they all got together just for cocktails and friendship.
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Mike Niendorff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-04-03 07:24 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. (also: here's FCTR's press release on the subject)
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KFC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-04-03 07:37 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. Like I said - nothing
Holy shit - did you even read those memos? If this is what Palast is basing his opinion on, then he should be a fiction writer.
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Robin Hood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-04-03 09:00 PM
Response to Reply #8
12. Yeah, nothing...lol..
I'm sure that Ahnold will agressively pursue the State's case against Enron when he is in Office. Bwahaahahaha!! You're kidding, right?
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nostamj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-04-03 10:27 PM
Response to Reply #12
16. well, he/she has the right avatar!
this story is huge.
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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-04-03 07:24 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. Unfortunately, the conjecture is so utterly, painfully obvious.
Does anyone think Enron wouldn't do everything possible to save itself $9 Billion? Does anyone have a more logical explanation for why democracy is being shat upon by the Republicans like it is? Can anyone explain why the media is lying so aggressively and shamelessly.

This one is too obvious.

Anyway, when as Pallast been wrong with the facts before? I don't always agree with all his conclusions, but I read thos emails, and although they're a little thin, I think the implications are obvious. I don't doubt that that he has 34 pages of Enron notes either.
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KFC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-04-03 07:42 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. The e-mails were a little "thin"?
So "thin" that they are basically invisible.

Simply put, Palast has no backup for his claims. What he says could be true, but he offers no proof.
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drfemoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-04-03 10:47 PM
Response to Reply #9
18. Whistle Blower at E***
doesn't think they're thin... where do you think the documentation came from? Someone at slanted E leaked them. They evidently think there's a smell coming from the cow pies.
:shrug:
But, I'm really interested in what you're thinking. Why is it so hard for you to believe this story?
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MrGrippey Donating Member (17 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-04-03 11:46 PM
Response to Reply #18
23. Do you know how to pursue this?
Are there additional sources of info? The memos as posted aren't enough in themselves to prosecute, much less make specific, verifiable, concrete conclusions that would hold up.

But if a fling with an aide was enough to hound a President for YEARS, surely the Democrats could muster the balls to trot this out into public and demand that Arnolph account for the activity and his involvement?

The negative publicity alone, in this time-frame, would be significant.
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slaveplanet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 05:18 AM
Response to Reply #23
29. Are there additional sources of info?
I'm a political novice in California politics , so correct me if I don't have this straight....Pete Wilson enacted legislation before leaving office that brings about deregulation. Davis is either inept, flim flammed , or complicit for not realizing the scope of the problem, consequently he gets blamed for the mess. A shill(issa)sets for the recall. The original culprit Wilson shows back up via the Bohemian Grove Schwarzenegger juggernaut. Buffett is brought in due to his connections with the Brothers Urosevich, Thereby making sure ESS& Diebold are in play. The plan is to shift burden from ratepayer to Taxpayers by monkeying with prop 13. thus relieving Enron, Reliant, Dynegy, Williams Company of any pesky lawsuits, and the icing on the cake is a setup to deliver California to Bush in 04.

my comments in {}

{Dave Emory came through with some info back in Sept., go listen to the"For the Record" files...FTR 420, 421,422 } or <http://wfmu.org/playlists/DX>

15.       Among the most revealing and cynical of Schwarzenegger’s networking moves is his powwow with Kenneth Lay, the CEO of Enron during the very time period that Enron was helping to destabilize California with the deliberately-constructed “Energy Crisis.” (For more about the destabilization of California and the phony energy crisis, see FTR#’s 280, 420.) This puts Schwarzenegger “right smack dab in the middle” of these shenanigans. “Arnold Schwarzenegger isn’t talking. The Hollywood action film star and California’s GOP gubernatorial candidate in the state’s recall election has been unusually silent about his plans for running the Golden State. He hasn’t yet offered up a solution for the state’s $38 billion budget deficit, an issue that largely got more than one million people to sign a petition to recall Gov. Gray Davis. More important, however, Schwarzenegger still won’t respond to questions about why he was at the Peninsula Hotel in Beverly Hills two years ago where he, former Los Angeles Mayor Richard Riordan and junk bond king Michael Milken, met secretly with former Enron Chairman Kenneth Lay who was touting a plan for solving the state’s energy crisis.” (“Ahnuld, Ken Lay, George Bush, Dick Cheney and Gray Davis” by Jason Leopold; CommonDreams.org; 8/17/2003; p. 1; accessed at www.CommonDreams.org .)
16.       “While Schwarzenegger, Riordan and Milken listened to Lay’s pitch, Gov. Davis pleaded with president George Bush to enact much needed price controls on electricity sold in the state, which skyrocketed to more than $200 per megawatt-hour. Davis said that Texas-based energy companies were manipulating California’s power market, charging obscene prices for power and holding consumers hostage. Bush agreed to meet with Davis at the Century Plaza Hotel in West Los Angeles on may 29, 2001, five days after lay met with Schwarzenegger, to discuss the California power crisis.” (Idem.)
17.       “At the meeting, Davis asked Bush for federal assistance, such as imposing federally mandated price caps, to rein in soaring energy prices. But Bush refused saying California legislators designed an electricity market that left too many regulatory restrictions in place and that’s what caused electricity prices in the state to skyrocket. It was up to the governor to fix the problem, Bush said. However, Bush’s response appears to be part of a coordinated effort launched by Lay to have Davis shoulder the blame for the crisis. It worked. According to recent polls, a majority of voters grew increasingly frustrated with the way Davis handled the power crisis. Schwarzenegger has used the energy crisis and missteps by Davis to bolster his standing with potential voters. While Davis took a beating in the press (some energy companies ran attack ads against the governor), Lay used his political clout to gather support for deregulation.” (Idem.)
18.       “A couple of weeks before Lay met with Schwarzenegger in may 2001, the PBS news program ‘Frontline’ interviewed Vice President Dick Cheney, whom Lay met with privately a month earlier. Cheney was asked by a correspondent from Frontline whether energy companies were acting like a cartel and using manipulative tactics to cause electricity prices to spike in California.” (Idem.)
19.       “ ‘No,’ Cheney said during the Frontline interview. ‘The problem you had in California was caused by a combination of things—an unwise regulatory scheme, because they didn’t really deregulate. Now they’re trapped from unwise regulatory schemes, plus not having addressed the supply side of the issue. They’ve obviously created major problems for themselves and bankrupted PG & E in the process.’” (Idem.)
20.       “The 90-minute secret meeting Lay convened took place inside a conference room at the Peninsula Hotel. Lay, and other Enron representatives at the meeting, handed out a four-page document to Schwarzenegger, Riordan and Milken titled ‘Comprehensive Solution for California,’ which called for an end to federal and state investigations into Enron’s role in the California energy crisis and said consumers should pay for the state’s disastrous experiment with deregulation through multibillion rate increases. Another bullet point in the four-page document said ‘Get deregulation right this time—California needs a real electricity market, not government takeovers.” (Ibid; p. 2.)
21.       “The irony of that statement is that California’s flawed power market design helped Enron earn more than $500 million in one year, a tenfold increase in profits from a previous year and it’s coordinated effort in manipulating the price of electricity in California, which other power companies mimicked, cost the state close to $70 billion and led to the beginning of what is now the state’s $38 billion budget deficit. The power crisis forced dozens of businesses to close down or move to other states, where cheaper electricity was in abundant supply, and greatly reduced the revenue California relied heavily upon.” (Idem.)
22.       “Lay asked the participants to support his plan and lobby the state legislature to make it a law. It’s unclear whether Schwarzenegger held a stake in Enron at the time or if he followed through on Lay’s request. His Spokesman Rob Stutzman hasn’t returned numerous calls for comment about the meeting. For Schwarzenegger and the others who attended the meeting, associating with Enron, Particularly Ken Lay, the disgraced chairman of the high-flying energy company, during the peak of California’s power crisis in May 2001 could be compared to meeting with Osama bin Laden after 9-11 to understand why terrorism isn’t necessarily such a heinous act. A person who attended the meeting at the Peninsula, which this reporter wrote about two years ago said Lay invited Schwarzenegger and Riordan because the two were being courted in 2001 as GOP gubernatorial candidates.” (Idem.)

{In this more recent Larry King Interview....Kenny 's ideas seem to hold a lot of water with Ahnold....}

Conan unplugged
Sac Bee ^ | 9/19/03 | Bee Editorial Staff

To figure out where debate truant Arnold Schwarzenegger stands, the best voters can do is tease out what he really meant in some softball television conversations with Oprah Winfrey and Larry King. Beware in particular of any candidate who seems lost on the topic of energy.
Lt. Gov Cruz Bustamante is clearly lost given his recent proposal to regulate the price of gasoline, a sure-fire way to constrict supplies, discourage investment in refining capacity and cause long gas lines. But Schwarzenegger looked equally lost in suggesting that the cure to a broken deregulation of electricity is more of the same.

Here's an exchange between Schwarzenegger and King:

"The biggest problem that we have is that we don't really attract any private investors now to build any of the energy plants," the candidate said. "You see, he \Gov. Gray Davis\ has proposed in all his energy plans ... and what happened, of all the energy plants that were proposed to be built, only a quarter of them were built. This is because it's a lack of leadership. ... We have to build more energy plants. ... But in order to do that, is we have to get the state out of the business of running those things.They are competing with the private sector right now. That's why the private sector doesn't want to come in and do that."

"You trust the private sector?" asked King.

"Oh, absolutely," Schwarzenegger said.

Oh, boy. Just what California needs: a governor who trusts the firms that manipulated the power markets in 2000 and stole billions from the state's consumers.

Let's rewind the tape to that part about the state running the energy plants. Where are all those state-run plants? We can't find them. We find plants owned by private energy companies such as Mirant and Duke. We find plants owned by regulated utilities such as PG&E, which the deregulation law took out of the new plant business.

But no state plants.

Now let's go to that sound bite about building new plants. Has Schwarzenegger forgotten the collapse of Enron, the wave of energy company bankruptcies that followed and the retreat of private capital from the power plant market? It's Wall Street, not California, that put a halt to construction.

What does Schwarzenegger mean by "leadership"? Does he want to change California's deregulation law, and if so, how? Does he have a plan to recapitalize the private sector so new plants can be financed?
In the race to sound dimmest on energy, Schwarzenegger has come from behind and is now running neck-and-neck with Bustamante.
------------------

{Surely someone at the wheel must have sensed trouble well before 2000.
Emory goes into the price fluctuations in 1998, and touches on the complicity of Baker in FTR 420:}

3.            Beginning the discussion of the deliberate manipulation of California’s deregulated electricity market, the program chronicles a startling fluctuation of rates in 1998. The author of this important, incisive article observes that this was apparently a test of the “power lifting” that destabilized Davis and boosted Schwarzenegger in a position to move to Sacramento. “This story begins with the California energy crisis, which started in 2000 and continued through the early months of 2001, when electricity prices spiked to their highest levels. Prices went from $12 per megawatt hour in 1998 to $2000 in December 2000 to $250 in January 2001, and at times a megawatt cost $1,000.” (“Fraud Traced to the White House: How California’s Energy Scam Was Inextricably Linked to a War” by Katherine Yurica; The Yurica Report; p. 1; available online at www.yuricareport.com/PoliticalAnalysis/FraudinWhiteHouse.htm .)
4.            “One event occurred earlier. On July 13, 1998, employees of one of the two power-marketing centers in California watched incredulously as the wholesale price of 41 a megawatt hour spiked to $9,999, stayed at that price for four hours, then dropped to a penny. Someone was testing the system to find the limits of market exploitation. This incident was the earliest indication that the people and the state could become victims of fraud. The Sacramento Bee broke the story three years later, on May 6, 2001. Today, Californians are still paying the costs of the debacle while according to state officials the power companies who manipulated the energy markets reaped more than $7.5 billion in unfair profits.” (Idem.)
5.            California’s “energy crisis” apparently served as a foundation for disgraced Enron chairman Kenneth Lay’s pivotal recommendations to Vice-President Dick Cheney’s energy policy task force. “In April of 2001, Ken Lay handed Dick Cheney a two-page memorandum recommending national energy policy changes. The memo contained Enron’s positions on specific, rather technical issues, which were presented as a ‘fix’ for the California crisis. (Enron brazenly advised the administration not to place price caps on energy, which would be precisely the request California officials made to the president, and which the President and the Vice President would just as brazenly deny until public pressure forced them to capitulate.)” (Ibid.; p. 2.)
6.            Former Bush (Senior) secretary of state James Baker presided over an advisory report that also appears to have been central to Cheney’s energy directives. “On October 6, 2002, a newspaper in the UK published a little known article about Mr. Cheney’s advisers. According to Neil MacKay, an award-winning journalist, writing for Scotland’s Sunday Herald, Dick Cheney commissioned an energy report from ex-Secretary of State James Baker III. The time of this ‘commission’ is not reported, but since the members of the appointed task force held three videoconferences and teleconferences in December, January, and February 2000-2001, Cheney therefore logically contacted Baker some time prior to the December 2000 meeting—during the presidential transition period.” (Ibid.; p. 3.)

{and from a Prop13 freeper thread to a WSJ article:}
http://freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/964811/posts

Mr. Buffett, the chairman of Berkshire Hathaway Inc., took on California's famous Proposition 13, which has limited property taxes there since 1978. As an example, he pointed out the difference between his own property-tax bills for homes he owns in California and Nebraska.

{and finally an admittance of Wilson's prop 13 shenanigans from a freeper himself:)

-Proposition 13 led directly to drastic slippage in financing for local schools, and has contributed heavily to the state's current fiscal crisis.-
The author appears to have a clouded memory. While Prop 13 did initially limit the increases in school funding that were proposed state wide, it had a limited impact on education in rural areas that had low population densities.
The problems started in the metropolitan areas, especially LA county which had high population densities.
The culprit was the Wilson administration which took a big chunck of the property taxes away from the counties and redistributed to school districts based on school populations. Wilson redistributed the wealth from areas of limited electoral impact to areas with significant electoral impact.
That redistribution proved a disaster. The money was wasted on the fatally flawed school systems in the large metropolitan areas, gave great strength to the educational unions, and crippled functional educational system across the vast rural areas of California.
So no Professor Kennedy, it wasn't Prop 13, it was another redistribtion of wealth scheme implemented by an inept, and in this case Republican, governance.
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0rganism Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-04-03 08:02 PM
Response to Reply #4
10. The only real conjecture is that Guvernator would accept a FERC settlement
Edited on Sat Oct-04-03 08:04 PM by 0rganism
and would thus be an ideal person to run in a recall election, which would neutralize the lawsuit by Davis and Bustamante.

Arnold could easily come right out and say, "I won't let Enron rob us blind. They won't get away with just paying hush-money."

He could take that stand against corruption. Let's see what he does.
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MrGrippey Donating Member (17 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-04-03 11:39 PM
Response to Reply #10
21. Other possibilities
Perhaps we're underestimating the vision of Lay & Co.

Placing Arnolph in the governor's chair gives them much more than dismissal of a single lawsuit--I'm not familiar with the background, but was that lawsuit active then, or brought out later? If later, they were meeting to put Arnolph in power for other reasons...how 'bout offshore oilrigs, platform for launching presidential elections?
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Robin Hood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 12:32 AM
Response to Reply #21
25. You may be on to something.
Welcome to DU.
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Deja Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-04-03 08:06 PM
Response to Reply #1
11. Blame the people if uberHitler gets elected
There's nobody else to blame anymore.

Arnold and Bush are not geniuses for leading.

People are geniuses for wanting to be led.

I've just about had it with this country and am ready to leave.
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Classical_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 05:48 AM
Response to Reply #1
30. I was wondering where all the regulars went
Most of the people I have seen today are people with high post counts I have never seen that happen to be flamers.
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WaterDog Donating Member (125 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-04-03 09:03 PM
Response to Original message
13. This is so important
Kick :kick:
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Robin Hood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-04-03 09:44 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. Yet, it fails to gather any interest or discussion.
That says a lot about this board these days.
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MrGrippey Donating Member (17 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-04-03 11:41 PM
Response to Reply #14
22. Astounding
I know MoveOn is doing efforts to raise public awareness of the groping and the Hitler comments; but it would be nice to see them get this into the view of the public.
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whathappened Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-04-03 10:17 PM
Response to Original message
15. a good heads up
first i have heard of this and it all makes cents , arnie gets job if elected and drops the ball and lets all that is involved off the hook , it mite be weak , but jr. has given us nothing but weakness for 3 years , so i like this and if the sheep elect this idiot even thought this is a dem state , well i will leave the rest up to those who vote for him
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gmaki Donating Member (301 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-04-03 10:30 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. There are 7 pages at the FTCR website..
Palast's article refers to 34 pages, so there is more to it than what we can see there. I am not saying this proves his accusations, but they have yet to be disproven.
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newyawker99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 07:07 AM
Response to Reply #17
31. Hi gmaki!!
Welcome to DU!! :toast:
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JanMichael Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-04-03 10:51 PM
Response to Original message
19. Find the Issa connection and it's Golden.
Issa self (Or fronted the money for someone else) financed the recall to the tune of $2,000,000.

The story was that he did it to beat Auhnold to the punch. That he didn't expect the dipshitinator to run this early, that he wanted to run on the Chimp's coattails in 2004.

Then Issa dropped out, what gives?
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nostamj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-04-03 11:08 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. "what gives" ???

Arnold, obviously, could DELIVER. Issa's $$$ was nothing but tinder for the Rove bonfire of the inanities.

Issa was a big time patsy. i think he'd really pissed but, not 'allowed' to be pissed.
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active_in_ca Donating Member (22 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 01:00 AM
Response to Reply #19
26. Alligator tears
FWIW, if you didn't see his resignation speech, he was in tears. Not a little weepy, I'm talking this guy looked like they just took the cookies away and he was really upset.

One could read into it that he got set up, then knocked down unexpectedly.

Po baby - NOT
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Capn Sunshine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 01:10 AM
Response to Reply #19
27. Recall donors top six
Edited on Sun Oct-05-03 01:11 AM by Capn Sunshine

Contributors to Recall Committees and Candidates
Database updated October 4, 2003 10:34 pm
1. ARNOLD SCHWARZENEGGER $6,350,000 Californians for Schwarzenegger
2. LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR BUSTAMANTE 2002 COMMITTEE $3,800,000 The Cruz Bustamante Committee Against Prop. 54
3. ARNOLD SCHWARZENEGGER (LOAN PURSUANT TO 2 CAL. CODE REGS. SECTION 18530.8(C)) $2,500,000 Californians for Schwarzenegger
4. PECHANGA BAND OF MISSION INDIANS $2,000,000 First Americans for a Better California IEC sponsored by Pechanga/Sycuan Indians
5. PETER V. UEBERROTH $1,838,763 Peter Ueberroth for Governor
6. GREENE PROPERTIES, INC. $1,760,000 ( Greene properties is owned by Mr. and Mrs. Darrel Issa)
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Capn Sunshine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-04-03 11:52 PM
Response to Original message
24. Further, there's a Junk Bond connection
Edited on Sat Oct-04-03 11:54 PM by Capn Sunshine
This meeting also included financier Michael Milken. It is more than coincident to me that the states bond rating, due to the recall passing, and energy company draining of the treasury is due to fall to "junk". Who else would know the people to call to move billions in newfound "high yields?"

PS.JP Morgan-Chase Manhattan is involved as lead underwriter; coincidentally Enrons banker.

pretty deep, huh.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/articles/03/08/20_recall.html
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Robin Hood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-05-03 03:23 AM
Response to Reply #24
28. I saw Milken's name and red flags immediately went up.
Guess who else was involved with Milken in the S&L scandal? That's right a Neil Bush, a Bush bro. Surprise, surprise. I would suspect that your junk bond analysis is right on target. They are robbing California blind, and then they will turn around and say that Clinton's success story was all false.

This may come to blows someday.
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