One compassionate conservative: "I can't be a'gin him..."

[IndyOp]

The only way to close the gap between 'us' and 'them' is to try and understand why they think what they think - is it lack of information; is it propaganda from media and church; is it *'s powerful 'regular guy' act? My experience yesterday revealed how very much they identify with him.

I started talking to the men at my local Citgo yesterday (red, red state). I told them that I bought my gas at Citgo because it is owned by the people of Venezuala and that * had turned away aid to the victims of Katrina offered by Chavez - the same man Roberts wanted to assassinate. The younger man stopped me and asked me "But why do you think President * is doing that. He must have a reason..." I told him that the only reasons I could think of were that * is an egomaniac and won't take help from anyone, especially if it would highlight the fact that he has failed so miserably re: Katrina. The older man told me that he had two family members in Mississippi - siblings - and he had not heard from them. Conversation went on for 10+ minutes and we covered a lot of ground - I made points about how far more of our tax money goes to the rich than the poor; how we have to stop supporting political parties as if they are sports teams... My voice got very LOUD as time passed and when I left I could feel how riled up I had gotten.

The end of the conversation was discouraging: "He is under so much stress. There is so much pressure and everything is on his shoulders. It seems like everything has happened while he has been in office - 9/11 and now this hurricane. I can't be a'gin him. I can't be a'gin him."

I didn't think of a reply until after I was out of there, "Thousands are dead and all but the rich are worse off now than 5-years ago. What would it take for you to be against him?"

What would you say?

[noahmijo]

1. I would say "well he's against you"

His decisions create situations that go against people in your, in OUR positions.

[Midlodemocrat]

2. I would have said....

Well, maybe those things happened on his watch because he took MORE VACATION THAN ANY OTHER PRESIDENT!!!!!!!

And, that he CAUSED the mess in Iraq. It didn't just happen.

[IndyOp]

14. I did not bring Iraq into the situation -

I was betting that they were 'troop-supporting Americans' and that they would stop listening to me the instant I brought up the subject.

Maybe it would've helped - especially if they know that he LIED to us - I think lying is still a no-no among rank-and-file conservatives. Though an awful lot of them have been brainwashed by the business-school mentality/morality -- it is all a 'game' and everything is fair, including lying and cheating.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

3. What if this had been our town?

Would you happy with how things have been handled?

Seems that with some, only referring to something that effects them ever gets through.

[IndyOp]

8. I did apply the situation to our town -

since we are in the midwest, and a nearby town suffered major damage from one tornado a few years back, I said "What if 5 twisters bore down on our town? What would you do if no help came for days and days?"

I even mentioned that the $2,000 cards aren't $2,000 dollars - they are $300 dollars per person up to $2,000 for families of 7 or more. I asked them whether they could wait out the time from tornado to insurance reimbursement on $300.

I tried to get them to identify with the Katrina survivors and I saw a light flicker behind their eyes (particularly the older man) several times - that is why it was soooo disappointing for them to end - literally in unison with "I can't be a'gin him."

Please note: I am not being dismissive of these men by using a'gin - my family is from the south and I love dialects from all over the country - I am including it to provide the flavor of the interaction.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

29. Some people you'll never get through to

but to hearten you a bit, a fundamentalist acquaintance of my husband has a wife who has, through her study of scripture, proved that Bush is the Anti-Christ. She's going around telling other fundies about her findings.

[IndyOp]

32. Excellent!

I about fell out of my chair last Thanksgiving when A Seventh-Day Adventist friend told me the same thing.

:wow:

[AndreaCG]

53. I like the 7th Day Adventists

they are vegetarians and not too preachy. I had one as a roommate in college we had very respectful discussions. The only thing I didnt like about her is despite being a vegetarian she kept smelly salt cod in the pantry (apparently the Trinidadian roots were too strong to give up salt cod)

[Why Syzygy]

4. It's a religion to some

deprogramming might help. But I don't know anything about that.

Heartbreaking that plain folks cannot see that he is THE disaster.

[aquart]

5. They're discounting the advance knowledge he ignored in both cases.

They don't get that none of the things that happened would have been as bad if he'd been on the ball.

I want to knock their wooden head together.

[tanyev]

6. Next time I hear something like that from someone, I am

going to ask them if they were ever a victim of domestic violence. The relationship between Bush and his supporters constantly reminds me of the abused wife who won't testify against her husband because she is more scared of life without him than she is of getting beat up again.

[IndyOp]

20. I think you are right about this - I completely agree that

the mindset is like that of a victim of domestic abuse. Thinking in this frame is helpful.

Another frame: They are happily blaming the survivors of Katrina because, in doing so, they reassure themselves that it won't happen to them. They have an elaborate set of defensive attributions in mind: A natural disaster could happen, but, still somehow, I would be able to make all the right choices. It can't happen to me, to my family. In this big scary world, I can reassure myself that it would work out differently for me. (And, as long as I stay on the side of the Big Guy he will take care of me!)

Another, slightly more sociological) take is that of Howard Zinn - throughout the history of the US, the rich have done a great job of using the middle-class as a wedge to protect their wealth and power from being diluted. The middle class looks down on the poor - dirty; lazy; crude - not realizing the entire time that the rich look down on them as being dirty, lazy, and crude.

The Rethugs since Reagan have been fomenting class warfare - their 'cut taxes' mantra is all about making sure that middle-class Americans are self-interested, distrustful of a larger sense of community (other than their own neighborhood or church group) and lacking compassion toward the poor.

Rethugs stroke the egos of the middle-class: 'You are better than the working-poor'. Rethugs stroke the egos of the working-poor: 'You are better than those people who aren't good Christians; better than the people on welfare; better than people of color'. (Everybody's gotta feel 'better than' someone else. It is a common human flaw with huge, nasty implications.)

I bring up this take because the younger man HAD to insert a sick rethug talking point -- it's because all those people are on welfare. I don't remember what was their fault - not leaving before the hurricane, not getting themselves out of there afterwards, not having sufficient savings that they could start a new life without any help, not owning a second home in the Catskills...

I do remember thinking that he clinged to his view of the world because it gave him comfort that - it could not happen to him.

[punpirate]

7. First off...

... I'd have said, "did you ever consider that all those bad things that have happened might be because of him being in the White House?"

Second, "do you really think he gives a shit about you and yours? He's taking care of his friends, not you."

Or something like that....

[MODemocrat]

9. This man apparently doesn't have a mind of his own

Nothing will ever happen to turn him against his hero. That's what
brainwashing does to the weak minded!! :boring: :nopity: :think:

[mitchum]

22. You are correct

[carpetbagger]

10. One step at a time.

If I got into arguments with all my patients who smoke, I'd be a mightily unhappy person, and probably wouldn't do much good.

So my advice:

1. Never raise your voice. you won't win, and it won't be appreciated.
2. Common ground is good.
3. If the only thing you've done is to come across as a democrat with a heart, a brain, and some balance (not Liebermanesque balance, more like your-head-is-on-straight balance), you've done what you could in that conversation.

I bet this guy's going to vote republican for the rest of his life.

I also bet that people like this are going to sit silently when their children, friends, neighbors, etc. start questioning why they are republicans. If you ask the question and get no good response, there's no reason to hang around.

[IndyOp]

24. I didn't realize my voice was rising...

and it did not rise until the very end. I was emphatic at several points but was trying to win friends and influence people so I kept my voice at an even, warm tone through most of the conversation.

I did work to establish common ground. I even brought up my parents' experience as poor folk during the Great Depression. I was dressed for work and my college town is divided between 'town' and 'gown' so I wanted to quickly establish common ground, common roots.

I am stuck in 'every soul is redeemable land' - some will just take a while longer than others.

Part of my discouragement is that they are holding beliefs that cause so much self-blame -- the older man took upon himself as a personal failure the fact that his salary was the same as it had been 10 years ago. That is the aspect of their psyche that resembles a victim of spousal abuse.

[MissWaverly]

11. I don't know what to say

I was listening to a German national comparing Bush and Hitler last night, I did not realize that Hitler never received a majority vote in
any election, that he manipulated the elections for his own purposes.
This observer really had a very interesting take on the last 5 years. Over and over again he stressed how George Bush maintains control of information, secrecy and what a joke the 9-11 investigation was. Now
we have Katrina, where Chertoff described the body count as horrendous,
then N.O. was cordoned off by private contractors and then reporters were banned, suddenly the body count was surprising light, now that
CNN has gotten access to the city the body count is climbing again.
What he said was that when things go wrong the government is accountable, why is there no accountability here.

[IndyOp]

28. There is no accountability here.

Of course not - that would be playing the 'blame game'.

If we want to understand the * administration, we have to always keep in mind the conversation that Suskind reported having with a high-ranking member of the * administration:

Suskind: "The WHAT?"

* administration: "The 'reality-based community'.". He said, "you all believe" -- now let me see if I can get this right -- "You all believe that answers to solutions will emerge from your judicious study of discernible reality."

Suskind: "Yeah... YEAH, OF COURSE..."

* administration: "Well, let me tell you how we really see it. You see, we're an empire now. And when we act, we kinda create a reality. Events flow from our actions. And because of that, what we do is... essentially... we act, and every time we act we create a whole new set of laws of physics, which you then judiciously study for your solutions, and while you're doing that we'll act again, promulgate a whole other set."

"and that's where we'll stand ultimately; you'll study us, and we'll act. We'll be the actors, and you will study what we do. And if you're really good -- on good behavior -- maybe thirty years from now one of us will visit that graduate seminar you'll be teaching at Dartmouth in your tweed blazer."

[MissWaverly]

48. there must be accountability

the whole purpose of government is to serve the public good, the whole
purpose of Bushco is cronyism

[mitchum]

12. The dirty little (not so) secret is that people like that man are bigots..

they are "a'gin" what they have been told time and time again the Democratic party stands for- "godless atheists", "shiftless minorities", "communists","crazy feminists","perverts", blah, blah, blah...
This is the politics of exclusion. They have become republicans by default. Hate and fear are VERY powerful motivators. Enough so, that they will align themselves with a party that actually works against their interests.
It really is that simple. And they are simpleminded.

[sandnsea]

18. Clannish

Not simple-minded, I know southerners and rural people who are not remotely simple minded who stick with Republicans because it is sticking with "their own". That can mean anything from racism to religion to traditionalists to just anti-government. It's about creating a clan, which I think is the most basic survival instict we have.

[mitchum]

21. I disagree, they ARE simpleminded in their interpretations...

of "their own". If they are choosing that which is "basic", they are discounting the "complex" They (and their puppet masters) don't want anything challenging their "deeply held truths"

[sandnsea]

30. Must be a better word

I understand what you're saying, but simple-minded gives the impression of a person who is intellectually deficient. There are lots of people who are very intelligent, but have a very clannish approach to their social and political "own".

[IndyOp]

33. Maybe it comes down to 'deliberately simple minded' as in

'wearing blinkers' versus 'mentally incapable of understanding?

:shrug:

[FreeStateDemocrat]

19. Re-pukes gained power (Nixon) when they attracted the racist in droves.

RW talk radio speaks to hatred and racism and is the radio of choice for the uneducated rednecks. Forget logic and common sense these people want to hate because it helps them to compensate for their feelings of inferiority. If you were reasonably articulate you were immediately ignored to prop up their own lack of understanding of the issues. Ignorance can be blissful for the confused and frightened.

[mitchum]

25. Absolutely, FSD

What we are seeing is an expansion of the republican's Southern Strategy. It can encompass and demonise a lot more "others" than just African Americans

[ComerPerro]

13. That's his job

Being President didn't used to be about spending 1/4 of your time vacationing and spending the rest of it saying "its not my problem, this is someone else's responsibility".

Its SUPPOSED to be hard work.

If Bush can't do it, he should resign, because his incompetence is a danger to this country.

[kbm8795]

15. This is not about being a'gin HIM

This is about making sure the lives of the people of the United States are protected.

[BiggJawn]

16. "But you were a'gin Bill Clinton, weren'tcha?"

"He had a lot of stress, too."

[AntiCoup2K4]

26. "Well, yeah, but that was different goddamnit!"

"Klintoon got his dick sucked by a fat Jew girl, and we just cain't have that kind of behavior in the Oral Office.. uh I mean Oval Office. A good White Christian American like myself don't think of Oral things unless it's that great man of God from Oklahoma, Oral Roberts!!"

/Freep inbred mode :crazy:

[jody]

17. "Maybe God sent * to destroy America." n/t

[Catherine Vincent]

23. You should have flipped it and asked if they wouldn't be against

Clinton or Gore if they were in office.

[Tower]

27. ALL of Bush's catastophes are the result of his own incompetence.

They're not like WW2, or the Great Depression, or the Civil War, or any of our other great national tragedies. The Bush Administration's incomptence allowed these things to happen. They could've been prevented.

[IndyOp]

31. Welcome to DU -- Tower

It is great to hear from new posters! :hi:

Your reply is good - simple, to the point. The older man, in particular, might have gotten this point because he has memories of being a kid during WWII.

[newyawker99]

40. Hi Tower!!

welcome to DU!! :toast:

[proud2BlibKansan]

34. I wouldn't say anything

I would just reach over and rip that koolaid out of his hands.

[IndyOp]

35. LOL

:rofl:

I didn't see the bottle. He must've kept it under the counter. ;)

[linazelle]

36. "You're one stupid sonofabitch" is what I'd say. n/t

[ribrepin]

37. This compassionate conservative has nailed it

It seems like everything has happened while he has been in office - 9/11 and now this hurricane.

Let me tell you a story: In 1980, I had a young family and we were doing O.K. Not great, but getting by. Prices kept going up every month and there was the Iran hostage situation. Seemed like a lot of bad things were happening, but me and mine were doing O.K.

Here comes Reagan and I didn't agree on a lot of issues, but it seemed the country needed a change. I pulled the lever for Reagan mostly because I thought we needed a change.

Couple of years later, some were doing better, but my family wasn't. I never voted for any republican again and I never will.

Sooner or later, even this clown is going to start asking himself why all this bad stuff is happening under Bush and the Republicans.


I'd never admit this except on a anonymous board, but I voted for Reagan based on pure superstition. Change the leader and maybe things will get better. This guy's already starting to think along those lines. It may take years, but folks are starting to ask themselves questions and maybe getting a little superstitious.

[IndyOp]

38. My take: Whatever changes their minds is fine with me -

be it superstition or whatever.

:hi:

[ribrepin]

42. My point exactly

If you're a superstitious person, you've got to be starting to think along the lines I was in 1980.

I wasn't mad at Carter and had a great deal of sympathy for what he was dealing with. Much like the above named compassionate conservative.

There are a lot of superstitious people in this country. They won't admit it, but in their most private thoughts, they are.

[Nikki Stone 1]

39. There's always hypnosis.

Or you could buy him more beer. That might do it.

[ribrepin]

41. Self Delete

[bluedawg12]

43. They have been conditioned to equate * with

Jesus.

http://www.sptimes.com/2005/01/16/news_pf/Worldandnation/Man_of_faith.shtml

"WASHINGTON - President Bush finds Jesus here, in the historic, pale yellow sanctuary where he often worships on Sundays, even though St. John's Episcopal Church doesn't share his views on gay unions, the death penalty or the war in Iraq.

The president finds Jesus here, too, in the marbled halls of the White House, where he reads daily devotionals and asks God's guidance, and where he has funneled billions of taxpayer dollars to religious charities.

And he invoked Jesus at a civic center in Iowa five years ago during his first presidential debate, when he was asked to name his favorite thinker. "Christ," he answered without hesitation, "because he changed my heart."

[IndyOp]

50. Yeah, this approach has been used before:

I get SOOOO angry when I hear conservatives talking about how we *need* to unite church and government because look what happened the last time a government turned their backs on God: NAZIS. That is such an unbelievable LIE that I can never believe they said - I always do a double-take. :wtf:

Here is a phenomenal DU post on Adolf Hiter and God:
<http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x2069007#2069813>

I believe today that I am acting in the sense of the Almighty Creator. By warding off the Jews I am fighting for the Lord's work. -Adolph Hitler, Speech, Reichstag, 1936

I have followed (the Church) in giving our party program the character of unalterable finality, like the Creed. The Church has never allowed the Creed to be interfered with. It is fifteen hundred years since it was formulated, but every suggestion for its amendment, every logical criticism, or attack on it, has been rejected. The Church has realized that anything and everything can be built up on a document of that sort, no matter how contradictory or irreconcilable with it. The faithful will swallow it whole, so long as logical reasoning is never allowed to be brought to bear on it. -Adolf Hitler, from Rauschning, _The Voice of Destruction_, pp. 239-40

What we have to fight for...is the freedom and independence of the fatherland, so that our people may be enabled to fulfill the mission assigned to it by the Creator. -Adolph Hitler, Mein Kampf, pp. 125

[buddysmellgood]

44. Then you will always be voting against yourself and your family my friend.

Wake up.

[bluedawg12]

45. We will always vote for America and not corporate monarchy.

Check this site:
http://www.bushislord.com/

[RandomKoolzip]

46. I STILL find it hard to believe that conservatives are still playing the

"underdog" card. "Oh, that poor president Bush, he's trying SOOO hard and everyone's ag'in' him."

BULLSHIT. This guy's party owns all three branches of government, the media, and virtually all corporate entities. How much of an underdog can you possibly BE with that much power?! At what point do they stop imagining Bush as some beleaguered man of God and see him, in the cold light of day, for what he is: a racist, elitist war criminal?

Is it just because it's us who's saying that that they won't listen? I mean, it's not like it isn't true.

[SnohoDem]

47. I would ask him,

"What if Bush were a Democrat, and everything else was exactly the same. Would you be against him then?"

[stevietheman]

49. The man may have offered a clue as why Bush maintains solid support...

even if just at 40% now.

His supporters *think* that a lot of these events just happened to fall on Bush's shoulders, and we can't blame him.

But of course, the Iraq war was elective. And what was behind 9/11 is still questioned by many. And nobody blames Bush for the hurricane itself, but it's the poor response in the aftermath that's the issue.

We need to remind these people that heavy things fell on the shoulders of previous presidents as well, and THEY HANDLED THEM WELL.

Even look at Clinton: He had the sticky thicket of the Balkans to deal with, not to mention the horrific bombing in Oklahoma City. How would Bush have dealt with either of these? I shudder to think.

I have to think that if Bush 43 were in charge of dealing with the Balkan issues as they cropped up, we would be in the middle of World War 3 now, or even worse, the world would be in a post-holocaust state.

What's going to happen if Bush winds up having to deal with an issue the size of a "Cuban missile crisis"? Are we going to just have to say "bubye!" to the world then?

[IndyOp]

52. I am hoping that this guy's comment helps me understand them

a bit better and I think that pointing out past National crises that were resolved well (by Repubs & Dems) is a good idea.

RE: What you mentioned about Cuba: see...
<http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x2079441>

[FreedomAngel82]

51. I would say

so you like people drowning for no reason? No food? No water? Bush is the supposed president and is supposed to take care of everybody. Even people who didn't vote for him. It's his job. If he can't handle the job he should resign and let someone who knows how to do the work do the job.