I know this is wrong, but I don't know why. My brother, the repuke

[Amy6627]

saw some Muslims dressed in traditional garb, and stated that we should be just as outraged about them walking around in public like that as we would be if KKK members were walking around in white sheets. Muslims are extremely oppressive of women and anyone else who is not Muslim.

Someone please give me a come back for this!

[sakabatou]

1. I dunno

This is a very hard case. Perhaps he cannot be saved.

[Melodybe]

32. Is he saying that the KKK is a religion? Cause in that case

I'm calling the KKK Devil Worshipers, just like their hero Dick Cheney.

[noamnety]

2. I feel the same way

about people being allowed in public with W stickers on their cars.

[jrthin]

8. I feel the same way

about stupid people.

[efhmc]

3. As a feminist, I have exteme contempt for these people, so you will

need to get backup from someone else.

[entanglement]

69. Care to elaborate who 'these people' are? n/t

[efhmc]

85. People who use religion, god or any other "reason" to subjugate

women.

[Ready4Change]

4. The difference between Muslims and KKK members is that...

...a SMALL percentage of Muslims are terrorists.

[Boomer]

9. But terrorism was NOT the issue

At issue was their repressive attitude toward women.

[Ready4Change]

33. Extremists in any group are a problem.

Any group. Take a rigid, unyeilding view of any dogma and you have oppression, almost by definition. The real problem, to me, is what percentage of a group are extremists?

Imo, many Muslims in our country are not extremists. Just as not all Jews are orthodox, nor are all Christians born again.

However, again imo, I've yet to meet or hear of a member of the KKK who wasn't an a**hole.

[Clark2008]

77. Uh... all Christians, by definition, except for Catholics are "born again"

By accepting Jesus Christ as your Savior, effectively "becoming Christian," you're automatically "born again."

Catholics believe one is born into Christianity upon birth, which is why they have Christenings, but, all the Protestant religions (well, all the ones I know anything about) use "born again," to mean "accepting Christ."

Which has nothing to do with the KKK and extremist Muslims, but I thought you'd want to know that you're using that term in a derogatory sense when, before the fundies' misuse of it, wasn't meant to be.

[really annoyed]

5. Hmm...

So, would he be offended by nuts that wear wimples (headdress) in public? I always see them shopping at the mall. :)

Yes, it's called a wimple - or so I've been told.

[Geoff R. Casavant]

20. Not quite

A wimple is technically the headgear worn by nuns. The Muslim headdress has a different name, but I don't recall it now.

[kdmorris]

29. Muslim women wear the hijab

Same thing as a wimple, but for a different religion.

[really annoyed]

30. Hijab?

But I was commenting that religious garments in public are offensive to the brother of the original poster. So, would he be upset by a wimple?

[Sal Minella]

35. kefiya? kifeya? Kefeya?

[really annoyed]

67. OK then

I was just answering the question.

It is "hijba" or "khimar", if that is what you were referring to.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hijab

"Hijab is the word used in the Islamic context for the practice of dressing modestly, which all practicing Muslims past the age of puberty are instructed to do in their holy book, the Qur'an."

"The word used in the Qu'ran for a headscarf is 'khimar', which might be better to use when referring to headscarves in general, as many people argue that this use of 'hijab' is incorrect, and it can certainly lead to confusion."

[GreenPartyVoter]

6. Uhhh. is he as outraged about any other cultural garb? How does he

feel say, about topless beaches? *g*

------------------------------------------------------
URGENT yet easy! Hold the government accountable for Katrina's aftermath
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4736062

[Qibing Zero]

7. Um, 'traditional garb'?

Does he mean the women were all mummified in clothing, or just that they were dressed like as if they were in the desert?

[rwheeler31]

16. so what are you saying

if we don't decide on Tuesday to wear a cheap T and shorts we should be investigated?

[Qibing Zero]

26. I'm really not sure how you inferred anywhere near that from my question..

People stereotype quickly, and often don't realize the difference between cultural tendencies and religious convictions. They see the cultural dress, and immediately condemn it as something religious (and/or sinister) in origin.

It's the same reason why saying 'oh my god' in everyday language has nothing to do with a person even having a religion.

[Miss Chybil]

10. Muslims don't burn crosses in people's yards? Muslims don't

lynch people because of the color of their skin? Oppressive of anyone not Muslim? That's not true. And last, but not least, radical fundamentalism is radical fundamentalism whether it wears a hood, a head scarf, or a tie. Not all Muslims are fundamentalists, just as not all Christians are fundamentalists. Christian fundamentalists would love to do to their women what fundamenlist Islam does to its. So, I suppose it's fundamentalist, racist, sexist behavior your brother should be worried about not the religion.

[abluelady]

11. We're Talking Apples and Oranges Here

Muslim garb is part of their culture. KKK wear robes and caps to hide themselves because they are criminals. As someone else said a very few muslims are terrorists--all KKK are terrorists.

As far as women's rights, again that is their culture and should not have anything to do with us.

[jim3775]

12. Self delete

I totally misinterpreted the OP.

[mondo joe]

21. And oppressing women has nothing to do with traditional clothing.

[jim3775]

31. I disagree

It seems to me that a woman covering her body with an ancient piece of clothing because she has been taught to by a man at a sermon from early childhood is repressive.

This teaching from the prophet Muhammad is the source from the wearing of the Hijab.

"...If the woman reaches the age of puberty, no part of her body should be seen but this --- (and he pointed to his face and hands)."

And this from the Quran

""Say to
the believing men that they should lower their gaze and guard their
modesty...And say to the believing women that they should lower their
gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty
and adornments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they
should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty
except to their husbands, their fathers...(a list of exceptions)"


I find that to be incredibly repressive. Just because it is traditional doesn't mean it is right.

[mondo joe]

37. But even non-muslims may wear traditional arabic clothing.

Muslim does not = Arabic.

And there's plenty of tradition that doesn't include the Hijab.

[jim3775]

42. Of course

For the third time, I'm not trying to impugn ALL Islamic/Muslim tradition/culture. Only the culture of opression that is still ongoing. I am concerned about human rights and equal opportunity.

[mondo joe]

44. I thought this was about the OP.

Or were you having a sort of free association thing going?

[jim3775]

45. Huh?

I'm not clear about what you meant by your post.

[Bluerthanblue]

58. What about the Amish? Mennonites? Catholic women?

"Prayer coverings", 'veils' and head coverings. etc.

What about the fundamentalist 'christ'ian movements that don't allow women to wear pants- make-up- speak out in church, and be 'submissive' to their husbands because "Paul" said-

"'A women should learn in quietness and in full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. For Adam was formed first, and then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. But women will be saved through childbearing - if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.' (1 Timothy 2:11-15)"

(believe me, these beliefs are not 'rare' aberrations of 'christ'ian churches today THEY ARE COMMON!)

Some misogynistic people are alot harder to 'spot'- but singling out Muslims as 'uniquely prejudiced, or oppressive to women' is hypocritical in my personal opinion.

"They" are easier to hate because they 'stick out'- NOT because they hold beliefs that are biased against women, or others who do not share their perspective on life.

If we are going to criticize 'one' religious group, we need to criticize all that do the same injustice to women, with less 'fanfare'.

peace,
blu

[phylny]

84. I know a Muslim woman who began wearing a head covering

outside, or in the company of men not in her family, only after 9/11.

She told me that she wanted to put the face of serenity, kindness, and compassion on what other people saw a "Muslim" as. Her husband did not require this of her, and neither did her own interpretation of the Koran. She never wore a head covering in the U.S. until after 9/11.

What impressed me most of all about this woman is that she spent most of this summer in the Middle East (in her country of birth) and she told me that her father begged her to move away from the U.S. He told her that America was the most horrible place, how could she live there, etc. etc.

She said, "I told my father, 'The people of the U.S. are not the government, and the government is not the people. What you see, the war in Iraq, that's the government. American people are warm, they are wonderful. They would do anything for you, help you in any way you needed. Not one time while I wore my head covering that identifies me as a Muslim woman have I been harassed, disrespected, or treated badly.'"

Just another side to consider. While I would never cover my head or alter my appearance because of someone, or some religion, told me to, it doesn't necessarily mean the person herself finds doing so repressive.

[PublicWrath]

36. Seen any muslim men wearing burkas? Peeking through the mesh?

Or clutching a chador between their teeth?
Which traditions about females framed these particular examples of traditional female clothing?

[mondo joe]

38. Did the OP say they were women? Or that they wore a burka?

That isn't the only traditional clothing, y'know.

[PublicWrath]

40. I was responding to "and oppressing women has nothing to do

with oppressing women"

[mondo joe]

43. Who said "oppressing women has nothing to do with oppressing women"?

And there is plenty of traditional clothing.

[PublicWrath]

49. I'm sorry, I should have previewed before sending it. Didn't you say

"And oppressing women has nothing to do with traditional clothing"
I disagree.

[mondo joe]

50. So you think all traditional arabic clothing is about oppressing women?

That's silly.

[PublicWrath]

56. Of course not. No one does.

[Agnomen]

25. USA did not have a woman president yet

a Muslim country did. How's that repressive?

[jim3775]

34. You missed a line in my post

"Of course we shouldn't impugn all Muslims because of this."

[zulchzulu]

13. If your brother can't see the difference, he's forever fucked as an idiot

Somehow Muslims dressed in traditional guard is a bad thing? As for oppression of women. "pro-life" idiots are pretty much in that category.

[never_get_over_it]

I would say

extreme right wing Christians are extremely oppressive to women and anyone who isn't Christian...whats your point bro...

This is why I hate all organized religion - the right wing Christians have done just the opposite for me as they would have liked to - they have turened me so off on religion it isn't even funny.

[Mz Pip]

23. Bingo

There are many forms of repression. Some have outward trappings, like burkas while others exercise repression more covertly. Fundy Christian women don't have to deal with the overt trappings of repression but they sure do have to endure the covert. Submit to thy husband, no birth control, no choice in more areas than just reproduction.

Just because they don't have the outfit, doesn't mean they aren't repressed.

Mz Pip
:dem:

[faithnotgreed]

54. as a "Christian"

i completely agree
i dont have any issue with anyone who hates religion organized or otherwise
in fact i really understand why so many do
i would too if i had any other circumstances than i did and in fact i have been surprised how much i dislike it myself

funny how we get to label ourselves but yes i do love Christ so i guess im a Christian

the other night i was polled by nbc/wsj and one of the questions (very late in the poll) was your religion
so i said Christian
and they asked what kind - options were "evangelical fundamentalist" as in "born again"
and i said well yes but no im not fundamentalist

so she said she would put "not sure"
ha
i said fine

im definitely not fundamentalist like this cabal says they are

[starroute]

14. KKK gear was designed for lynchings

The intention was to hide the identity of the perpetrators and also, I believe, to put fear into the hearts of "superstitious Negroes." In other words, it was designed for no other purpose than to wear while committing heinous crimes.

Traditional Middle Eastern clothing, in contrast, is nothing but . . . clothing. It's not intended to hide crimes. It's not designed to scare people. It's not explicitly associated with a history of torture and murder. It's just clothing.

So tell your brother to get over it.

[walldude]

15. Ask him if he is so worried about womens rights

what he plans to do about the new Constitution in Iraq?

[bananas]

17. Is that true of Cat Stevens?

If your brother is a repuke, then by definition he is also extremely oppressive of women and anyone else who is not Repuke.
So you should be outraged by him walking around however he is dressed.

[johnnypneumatic]

18. I'm not afraid of muslims

but people in brooks brothers suits, a red tie, and a flag lapel pin, scare the shit out of me. They are also oppressive of women and anyone who is not a repuglican.

[Infomaniac]

19. Tell him you really wish the Klan would walk around in their

bedsheets so that we wouldn't have to pray to God/Buddha/Allah/Al Franken to give persons who wish us evil bad knee problems so we will know them from their limping. Or you can tell him that he needs to submit an application with the Fashion Police who are in charge of these kinds of wardrobe issues. Or you can tell him that his heroes - the French - feel exactly the same way as he does about allowing certain kinds of clothing in some settings. Tell him you think it's unpatriotic of him to agree with the French. Than offer him some freedom fries.

[mondo joe]

22. So does he think traditional german clothing is a problem?

He's confused a style of clothing with oppression of women.

For that matter how does he know they're Muslim?

Arabic does not = Muslim.

[hyphenate]

24. They have the right to worship any way

they want to, just like everyone else. If there is conflict within a household, such as treating the women shoddily, the United States law enforcement has the right to impose the law of the land to the family; if there are no charges filed, it is up to the one who has been abused to bring the charges.

There can't be any right on the part of detractors to take away the rights of any one who is a citizen of the U.S. They all have the same rights as everyone else.

[sam sarrha]

27. the covering and bagging of women is a Tribal practice not an islamic one

one that not even Mohamed could stop by "Channeling" Gods disfavor for it

i cant condone intolerance against intolerance.. one must just be concerned and actually compassionate about it.. or in the state of Intolerance the freepers put a pod next to you while you are sleeping an and you become one of them

[cally]

28. Muslim women don't wear the traditional dress as

subjugation to men. They wear it for their faith. To assume all Muslim men and women are oppressive to women is not true. All the patriarchal religions have tenets in their faith and sects that allows women's subjugation. That doesn't mean that all Christians, Jews, nor Muslims agree or practice this.

BTW, Mohammed was very enlightened towards women for his time. Women got many new rights.

[PublicWrath]

46. Considering that the rise of Islam obliterated most of the pagan

culture which preceded it, we have little but their own testimony on how much of an improvement it brought to women's status.

[cally]

51. Women were given some property rights

and some other protections. I don't know which pagan religions you are referring to. Of course, many pagan religions gave women much power. In Mecca, my understanding is that women had few rights.

[PublicWrath]

55. Again, we have only Islam's word for that. And if it conferred some

benefits, it institutionalized many wrongs.
Anyway, my point is this:
Virtually the first order of business in the development of a religion (not just Islam) is to make separate rules for men and women.

[northzax]

60. indeed, and as long as any choices are voluntary

then I have no problem with it. In fact, my physician, as listed on my HMO card, is a muslim woman, hell my advisor in high school was a muslim woman, both wear headscarves, neither had a problem with having a relationship with me, a non-muslim male. I have never had a problem with either of them. In fact, my old advisor bought me my copy of The Satanic Verses and handed it to me, along with an essay about why she objected to the portrayal of the faith in the book.

tolerance is tolerance, humans are humans. intolerance is intolerance. enough said.

anyone forced into subjagation by religion against their choice is oppressed. anyone who chooses to make sacrifices for their faith is a human, no matter how ridiculous those decisions may seem to us. I mean really, the ban on pork in Judaism and Islam no longer can be justified by anything except tradition and faith (trichnosis was a real threat until about 1950), nor can the ban on marriage by Catholic priests (married men left rivals for property) and yet they stay on. I'm not religious myself, the idea of giving up my sundays to sit in a how crowded room and listen to people lecture me seems absurd, I get enough of that the rest of the week. But hey, if that's what people want to do, more power to them, right?

[SunDrop23]

39. It's almost as if he is trying to justify the KKK. JMO

[ultraist]

41. Ask him why he hates America, our freedoms, including freedom of religion

Does he think that fundamental Christians that are very oppressive of women and gays should not be allowed to wear crosses?

The KKK is a hate group. Comparing an entire religion, that happens to have a small fringe sect, (Christianity or Islam) to a hate group is apples to oranges.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

47. I have no problem with women wearing burqas in the US

as long as they do it by choice.

The Amish and Mennonite people have their traditional apparel which conforms to their ideas of what is modest and appropriate. I respect that, even if I do not choose that manner of garb for myself.

I do not respect those who wear and flaunt their KKK, Nazi, or gang "attire"; because these are designed to intimidate and frighten people. However, they are, by law, free to display their affiliation with these terrorist groups.

There is one advantage to the garb that they wear...It is easy for me to recognize the assholes from a distance, so I can ostracize them.

[proud2BlibKansan]

48. So would my cousin the nun also offend him?

How about my uncle the priest?

[applegrove]

52. Muslims are a varied group like any other. I don't think you can

generalize. Tell him to line up the Catholics & Some Protestants too for attack if he feels so.

[NeoConsSuck]

53. Tell him to lay off the KoolAid

goddamn it, since Katrina they've been gulping the stuff down! LOL!

[Brewman_Jax]

57. If he feels so strongly about it...

let him and his KKK friends walk in a mostly black neighborhood in their "attire."

I doubt that suggestion will go far. :rofl:

[Donailin]

59. "Dude? I can't believe we share the same gene pool.

Can you be anymore ignorant? Nevermind, I'm telling mom."

It's better to not get into it with family. Family is all we got. He'll come around one day and you'll be there to forgive his ignorance.

[benburch]

61. I wish Klansmen did go around all day in sheets.

I would know who to run down in the street.

[PsychoDad]

62. These threads truly show much about us.

Muslim "traditional" garb differs from nation to nation, as does the garb of both men and women. Arab muslims are a small minority among Muslims with Indonesia being the majority. American Muslims adopt a variety of styles, I myself, most of the time, only noticeably different by the white kufi I wear, which is often thought to be a Yarmulke by the un-initiated in such matters. Although for special occasions I do on occasion wear a thobe to Masjid.

My wife, another American muslim often dresses in western pant suits with only her hijab to distinguish her from anyone else.

I guess we wear "Traditional" Muslim clothes of our culture. :)

There are also many Arab christians who dress in the traditional style of their culture and people.

But I assume that these folks "looked" "arab", or pakistani, or Iranian, or some other version of brown people with strange clothes. A look that is prevalent out side of this country.


As for the oppression of women, let's look at that.

At the time of the Prophet in Makka and the arabian peninsula, women were considered equal to or less than slaves. They could be bought, sold or inherited. Women had no rights to inheritance and female infanticide was common, as males were seen as being more valuable and a female only a burden on her family (as in parts of China today- a non muslim country).

With the Advent of Islam-

Women were declared equal with men in the eyes of God.
Female Infanticide was prohibited.
The right and duty to obtain education.
The right to have their own independent property.
The right to work to earn money if they need it or want it.
Equality of reward for equal deeds.
The right to participate fully in public life and have their voices heard by those in power
The right to provisions from the husband for all her needs and more.
The right to negotiate marriage terms of her choice.
The right to obtain divorce from her husband, even on the grounds that she simply can't stand him
The right to keep all her own money (she is not responsible to maintain any relations).
The right to get sexual satisfaction from her husband.
The right to Inheritance.
And Others.

These were the rights guaranteed to women under the Hadeeth of the prophet and the Quran. A very revolutionary idea for the time, and even quite revolutionary for America less than a hundred years ago when women still didn't have the vote.

How about the Hijab? What actually constitutes a hijab differs from culture to culture, from the Burka of Saudi Arabia to the simple scarf of Iran and other Islamic countries.

Did you know that Muslim men also have a dress code? I, like my wife, must dress in a modest way (normally interpreted by many scholars as modest in the country we live in). I cannot wear gold or silk as those are reserved only for my wife and daughters. They can wear all the gold and silk they desire.

Did you know, according to Islamic law, all the money I make belongs to my wife, and anything she makes belongs solely to her alone, I have no right to it while she has a right to all of mine. Anything I buy for her, such as things she stipulated in the marriage contract, such as A house or car (Yes, muslim women can ask for these things before they get married as a condition of the marriage) belongs solely to her. In the case of a divorce, they belong to her alone.

The Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) stated," The best among the believers is he who is best to his wife". If need I can quote more.

Also it might be noted, Muslim women in america are among the best educated in our american society.

Maybe my wife needs to be rescued from her oppression?

Of course there is sexism and abuse of women in Muslim countries, just as there is sexism and abuse in America and other "western/christian" countries or even in Japan, or South Africa or anywhere else. Don't Christian dominionists still quote Paul's advice from verses found in the new testament that a woman cannot teach a man, or that women should cover their heads in church and keep quiet? On the other hand, Islam has a long history of women scholars.

Woman abuse in Islamic countries is not the result of Islam, but the result of HISlam, where the revolutionary teachings of Islam have been corrupted and patriarchal rule established upon a handful of weak Hadeeth.

What's the reason for it here? Were Paul's teachings about women being subservient to the man as the church is to Christ misunderstood?

And as always, Peace be unto you.

P.S. : Edited to add this.
There is an interesting thread in the Theology/Religion board about the Origin of western misconceptions about Islam. Might be worth perusing.

[Yupster]

66. Good to have someone knowledgeable

Can I take advantage of the opportunity with some questions?

What is the current Muslim teaching on multiple wives? Is this still permissable or has it been banned? Or does it depend on where you live?

What's the deal with the "honor" killings and mutilations we read about mostly in Pakistan and Palestine? Is the Muslim population doing all it can to squelch those practices?

Is there such a thing as a Muslim view on abortion?

Thanks in advance for any info.

[PsychoDad]

70. Some very good questions.

I'm not that knowledgeable, within Islam there are many opinions, I just know a little bit about the subject, and I'll do my best to give you a good answer.

multiple wives

Firstly, a muslim is constrained to follow the laws of the country he or she resides in. Therefore in the US, A muslim man could not have more than one wife.

In countries where it is allowed, some provisions still apply.
Firstly, each wife must have their own house or apartment of equal value, secondly the husband must spend equal time between all families and third, spend an equal amount on all wives and families. Example, if I buy one wife a nice Mercedes, I have to buy each one the same type of car. New clothes for one? New clothes for everyone. Vacation for one wife, vacation for all, etc. And all wives have equal right to your money, while not having to use any of their own on themselves or the children. So as you can see, it could get very expensive.

In reality, most Muslim (99%?) husbands, like husbands anywhere else, never have more than one wife at a time, and some muslim wives insure this by stipulating in the marriage contract that a marriage to another wife would be grounds for instant divorce.

"honor" killings and mutilations

Often the result of tribal cultures, caste systems and the unlearned "fatwa" of village elders. There is nothing in Islam to support these acts. In cases of decrees by village elders, such as in the case of Mukhtaran Bibi http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/2170586.stm the actions of the council have been decried by the High Islamic Sharia court, which found the men who raped her guilty and sentenced them to death. http://archives.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/asiapcf/south/08/31/pakistan.gang.rape/ But sadly, Sister Bibi's and her families woes are not over due to tribal alliances and inter tribal feuding.

The cure for this is education. Educating the "Muslims" in these countries about Islam and the real rights of women in Islam is what is needed. Insuring that the women are educated and empowered would ba part of that. Sister BiBi is herself an example of a woman who is using Islam to reach out to and help other women in that part of the world like herself.

But are "we" the Muslims of the world, and in particular the west doing enough to stop this horror and to help our sisters?

A question requiring a bit of soul searching. While there are advances in women's rights in the arab world, Ashamedly, I must say no, I don't think we are doing enough. The old saying is that politics are local applies with Islam also. On the whole, I think American Muslims are concerned most about issues in this part of the world. But we Muslims must remember that oppression is worse than murder and that the ties of Islam are stronger than any national, tribal or class ties and that these women are our sisters, entrusted to our care. We need to do more, and with an estimated 3 to 9 million muslims in america we need to make our voice heard, not only here but over there. We need to do more.

Muslim view on abortion

There are many views by Scholars, but in general, Abortion is viewed as unlawful, but in cases of rape or forced sex an abortion is allowed within the first 40 days, after that the spirit of the child has entered the fetus and is now a human being with all the rights of a human being. Most Scholars would also tend to agree an abortion is lawful if the mother's life is threatened.

Peace.

[Yupster]

72. Thanks so much for the answers

I'm involved in my church (Methodist) but know so little about Islam.

Maybe a stupid question, but can women have multiple husbands within Islam?

Also, if I can ask your opinion, where do you think the future of Islam going?

Is there reason to be hopeful that within the Muslim community, moderates are gaining influence/power over Wahabbis and other more militant wings of the religion? As a Muslim are you seeing this go one way or the other? Should we be hopeful or worried?

Sorry to try to make you into an expert on Islam. I know that's unfair, but you're the most knowledgeable person I've seen here on the topic.

[PsychoDad]

83. Sorry to reply so late.

But I went to bed after my last post :)

can women have multiple husbands within Islam

Yes, but one at a time. A man cannot marry a married woman, but a woman can marry a married man, as long as he has less than 4 wives. I don't remember if I had mentioned that 4 was the limit for the number of wives a man may have at one time.

But it's rare to have multiple wives. I think it's only found among the richer class in arab states. It's nowhere as common as many in the west think it is or maybe even as common as it is here in america among mormon separatists who have no limits on numbers nor any guarantee of rights for the wives.

where do you think the future of Islam going

I hope in the right direction. Most Muslims are moderates but still a bit conservative. That's why many in america tend to vote Republican, the "conservative" message of "family values" is on the surface attractive to Muslims, but Muslims are learning that the GOP is no friend of Muslims, Insha Allah (God willing). (There is also a teaching in Islam that it is best to take the moderate approach, of neither being to liberal or to strict in all matters.)

Wahabbists can be understood to the western mind as similar to the pentecostal/evangelical movement here in America, both are a fairly modern phenomenon, and both claim to represent the "real old time religion". And while the rhetoric from the pulpit during sermons can be fiery, not everyone takes it to heart and goes out and blows up an abortion clinic or fly a plane into a building. In fact most just go on with their lives like anybody else.

The terrorists are a minority. It's hard to keep anyones wing-nuts contained. I also think that their actions have more to do with politics than religion, they like criminal leaders of the western brand like to cloak their evil in religion, and keep their base blinded with religion.

Muslims around the world have spoken out against acts of Terrorism each time they have happened and condemned the acts and the perpetrators, but have also asked to US to look at the underlying causes of these actions - and this moderation or desire for social justice on both sides is often seen by americans as somehow coddling the terrorists. "Unquestioningly with us or automatically against us", I guess is the mindset.

The great problem within Islam is it's division,religious and political. Islam is a religion of unity, yet we as an Ummah, (Islamic nation) are splintered. If Muslim nations could regain that unity they would be a powerful political bloc on the world stage. Unfortunately that unity will never be possible while petty tyrants who care only for their interests over the interests of their people continue to be supported by the west.

I don't see the future of Islam as being in the west. I think the western powers have pretty much squandered any real influence with many muslim peoples around the world. Nor should Islam make the values of the west their goal, real Islamic values are fine. (Consider- which is more sexually exploited, the girl in the veil or the girl in the mini skirt? In Islamic banking it is unlawful to charge interest, therefore the people cannot be oppressed by outlandish or variable interest rates. Access to education, shelter and food is a right of all of the society. Conditions of poverty and hunger are seen as failures of the state, not the individual. etc. what is so wrong with these values?) I see the future of Islam coming from diverse places like Iran where reforms are slowly taking place, Indonesia and even Singapore and from Islam itself, from it's past and the revolutionary vision and spirit the prophet had for the equality of all humanity and the rights of animals and the environment.

Yes, I think Islam is moving in the right direction, maybe slowly but still heading in the right direction. A sign of this is greater rights for women in many of the Gulf States.

And I think Muslims here in the west have a part to play in the coming Muslim renaissance.

We Muslims must put to practice our belief of Unity, by reaching out not only to fellow muslims, but also to Christians, Jews and other creeds as brothers and sisters in humanity. Only by remembering together that we all come from a single mother and father and bear a common responsibility to each other can we defeat racism and poverty.

As long as we remember we are all humans with the same hopes and fears, yes, there is hope.

And as always, Peace.

[The Magistrate]

74. Your Comments Here Are Much Appreciated, Sir

[Porcupine]

63. Maybe they weren't Muslim? Did he think of that?

There are Coptic Christian groups that wear white robes. So do Sikhs. So do Sufi's (okay muslim but not in the sense he would understand it)

Hmm. Bahai? Rosicrucians? Subud? anybody know how they dress. Hell I've even seen radical Jewish groups in white robes.

[Scout]

76. I don't believe Baha'i faith requires different dress for women

My sisters were both active in American Baha'i groups ... I went with them sometimes. Never, ever saw a woman dressed in head scarf or chador, or hijab, even the ones who came here from the middle east.

Technically, Baha'i faith believes in equality of women and men. In practice, my sisters' experiences showed them that there was nothing really different about the treatment of women. There was as much discrimination in practice as in non-Baha'i communities.

[digno dave]

64. "tradditional garb" for suburban white men is what, sneakers and polo shir

lets get rid of those people!!!

[newspeak]

65. well I'm for wearing what you want

Approximately six months after 9-11, I was out-about town wearing my salwar and camise (pants and top) which is indian dress. It's cotton and very comfortable. I lived in a very diverse, open minded part of Utah. (I know, some are thinking where is this? hint: Moab) Anyway, at this fast-food restaurant was this family who we'll say was more countrified-the man gave me the dirtiest look. I figure there are many Americans that have no idea about other cultures or dress. I love Indian clothes and even have a very formal indian outfit for going out. I say, wear what you want, as long as you don't show too much in public.

[newspeak]

68. Psychodad is the winner!

That's the history I learned in school. BINGO! In college, there were moslem women who were students wearing Western clothes. Didn't Mohammad's sister fight along side of him? You know I believe it's like some Christian teachings. We have the words of Jesus and he had women followers and then, you have Peter the mysogynist. So you have fanatics who decide to tell others how or what Jesus really meant. You also have the same dilutions in Islam. Women vote in Iran, and before Bush, the government was going more moderate. There was a PBS documentary about a woman who traveled through Iran meeting other women- a taxi driver; an elderly woman artist who plastered her walls with her art (which was once taboo). She had to cover her hair, other than that, she moved around freely. Of course, we could mention are great friend, Saudi Arabia. Why don't you ask your brother if he minds our pResident's friendship with Saudi Arabia? Woman don't vote, can't drive and "we don't need no stinking human rights!"

[PsychoDad]

71. Salaam Newspeak

Welcome to DU :hi:

[newspeak]

82. thank you!

thank you for the welcome. There are fanatics in most religions and ideologies, "I'm right and your wrong, so you better follow me or else." What the world needs is more empathy and understanding. I'm still waiting.

[JCMach1]

73. Way off base! I know feminists who wear full cover and conservative

Wahabi girls from KSA who wear skin tight jeans and t-shirts...

[mirror wall]

75. Depending on the particular sect and their individual realities, dressing

in the traditional garb does not have to be equivalent with OMG OPRESSION.

First off, ask him why he would ever dare to associate all Muslims with a hate group such as the KKK. That thinking is every bit as messed up as associating all christians with Tim McVeigh and his ilk.

-Maybe- if he were to make an argument that was founded on the basis that all religion is oppressive, he might have a point. But we won't go into the two sides of that debate since I bet he's a Jesus lovin' Christian who's got JESUS in his thar heart. Maybe he just forgot to clean Jesus' litterbox out and his heart is filling up with holy fecal matter which has polluted his bloodsteam and could be what is causing such ignorant shit to spew out of his mouth.

Then ask him why he automatically assumes that these women are being FORCED to wear the coverings by their menfolk. Does he think that all Muslim women are stupid, uneducated minions of their menfolk? With no minds of their own? I'd like to see him say that to some of the strong as- and smart as hell Lebenese women who favored headscarves I've known in my time.

There are many Muslim women who wear the stuff because it makes them feel desireable. Ask him if he thinks his wife should stop BOWING TO THE OPPRSEIVE EXPECTATIONS OF WESTERN SOCIETY and stop shaving her legs, working out, dressing in an attractive western manner, wearing makeup, etc.

Choosing to don the hijab is sometimes no different than choosing to blow a good chunk of change on trying to live up to western standards of beauty.

Sure, both are -somewhat- opressive, but they're about on the same level. If he's going to object to one, he must also reject the other to avoid cognitive dissonance (not like Repubs ever try to avoid cognitive dissonance though!).

Also, in the much rarer circumstance of a cadre of men forcing women to wear burqas or something, he's right. That sucks. Those bastards are being abusive, but it's not the same as women who OF THEIR OWN VOLITION choose to dress according to their belifes.

IT'S A FREE COUNTRY AFTER ALL. ISN'T IT? Isn't it...?

[KharmaTrain]

78. How About A Nun?

Does he think the same thing based on her religious garb?

The myopic nature of this country never fails. Stereotypes and intolerance run very thinly below the American psyche. This nation became "great" by beating down others along the way. These are the latest targets.

Some forms of Islam treat women as property, but so do fundamentalist Xtians and Orthodox Jews. But that has nothing to do with how a person choses to dress or the lifestyle they live. Moslem women who live in this country choose their lives freely and should be respected for it.

[Bridget Burke]

79. Does your brother express his extreme feminism in other ways?

Apparently he was just complaining about "Muslims"--not even the way some Muslim women dress. Especially the bit about how they oppress "anyone else who is not Muslim."

Not all Muslims dress alike! Customs vary from country to country & even within countries. And Muslims in the USA show even more variety. Some new immigrant women are fully veiled; many others dress like most US women. And what about our native born Muslims--many of them black--or even white!

Is he offended by Catholic clergy, Mennonites or Orthodox Jews? They dress distinctively & someone can always dredge up outrages from ancient history. (Well, maybe not against the Mennonites.)

[rman]

80. simple: the problem is not the clothes that people wear.

- perhaps with the exception of anything that covers the face, for purely practical reasons; veil, burka, ski-mask, hood.

Also very few Muslims are in fact extremist. Fundamentalist muslim groups do not make many friends amongst muslim populations when they blow up muslim 'infidels'. And you can't recognize an extremist by the clothes they wear. Does your brother think Mohamed Atta walked around in traditional muslim garb?

[zanne]

81. Religious extremists are only constrained by law

As a non-religious person, I see both extremist Muslims and extremists Christians the same way. I do think that, if not for the laws in this country, extremist Christians would be stoning women in the town square for being raped. The Constitution and state laws are the only things that keep them back. The problem I have being "tolerant" of religion is that it never seems to be satisfied just to exist for its' members--others must be controlled and dominated by them, too.