OK, why is the "Jesus fish" suddenly a symbol of creationism?

[ZombieNixon]

I mean, according to the Bible, Jesus did not create the world, that was his Old Man. Plus, the fish symbol comes from the Loaves and Fishes bit, right? And that has nothing to do with the creation of the world at all, IIRC. What's the deal?

[texpatriot2004]

1. I wonder? n/t

[gratuitous]

2. Because the creationists aren't very bright or imaginative?

But that's just my impression based on their articulation of their explanation for so many things. I could be wrong.

[Melodybe]

3. That's it, of course they would take Jesus's message of

sharing and community and turn it into a hateful symbol of ignorance.

It's just what they do.

[jwirr]

4. From what I know of Christian symbolism it never

did stand for creationism. It was a symbol used by early Christians in Rome to leave messages for others to follow. If anything it would stand for several fish stories in the Bible including the fishes and loaves (feeding the hungry) and the large catch of fish caught by John and Peter when they met Jesus. It has come to be a sign of a Christian but not any specific doctrine.

[Agnomen]

11. Greek word for fish

(ichthus, spelled: Iota Chi Theta Upsilon Sigma). That is an acrostic for "Jesus Christ, of God, the Son, the Savior" .

[RevCheesehead]

20. Exactly right.

Thanks for posting that! :)

[Javaman]

54. Also two things: He was the "fisher" of men and it's widely known that...

during his life, most people in his region spoke Greek.

[chaulieu]

5. Shiny metallic things on cars

When fish emblems started proliferating on cars, a clever DARWIN emblem was formulated in response, with the text Darwin inside of the body and little legs. I guess the fish then became more decidedly anti-Darwin or creationist, rather than Christian.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Icthys

More than anyone would need to know on Wikipedia.

[Tesla]

10. It started off as a symbol for when he lived....

in the Piscean age.

[really annoyed]

38. Yep

I did read that many years ago - well, when I was a teenager. It seems like ages ago to me, hahaha....

I like this one myself...



It's a direct reference to my astrological sign. I don't know if other people would get it though.

[dweller]

6. Astrological significence

Pisces

dp

[Qibing Zero]

7. It's a reverse attack!

Creationism came about because of evolution, darwin fishes on cars came about because of jesus fishes on cars. The fishes are just advertising anyhow.

[Spike from MN]

63. I saw a "Darwin Loves You" bumpersticker the other day.

Classic.

[BrklynLiberal]

8. This would not be the first time the Right has appropriated a concept or a

symbol, given it a new meaning (quite different and usually opposite of its original meaning) and then made it their own.

This is their Standard Operating Procedure.

[dweller]

15. standard MO

for the Xtians as well.


dp

[raising2moredems]

9. A COD ain't creationism...

it stands for Cash On Delivery if you are doing any work for someone with that symbol anywhere in plain sight.

[countmyvote4real]

12. It indicates the sponsors of creationism bullshit. n/t

[Berry Cool]

13. Actually, it comes from the passage in the Bible

in which Jesus recruits fishermen as his disciples by saying he will make them "fishers of men."

The fish was also a secret symbol Christians used to ID themselves to each other at times when it was unsafe to admit to being Christian, because it could get you killed.

Personally I think the stuff making fun of the fish that pertains to Darwinism is dumb. Nobody who wears a Jesus fish on their car is saying they don't believe in evolution. They're just saying they're Christian. Not all Christians believe literally that the world was created in six days. Some, for example, think that evolution was part of God's design and that "day" in the Book of Genesis doesn't mean 24 hours, necessarily.

So, really, the idea that all people who wear fish on their cars are fundamentalists who believe in creationism is kind of narrow-minded. And Democrats perptuating that idea is a sure-fire way to play into their enemies' desire to paint them as "the party of atheists," as opposed to a party where people of all relgious beliefs--and disbeliefs--are welcome.

Just MHO.

[Qibing Zero]

16. The problem was not so much the creationism

It was because a lot of people are so adament about expressing and advertising their faith in public.

In that respect I can see why some would want to Darwin it up and advertise their resistance toward the opression of science. ;)

[GreenPartyVoter]

18. Yes, fishers of men

[RevCheesehead]

19. I never really cared for the fish, or the fish wars.

The fish was a symbol used in time of persecution, when it was dangerous, life-threatening, to be identified as a Christian.

I think of it today as the person's right to state their belief, just like any other bumpersticker. In no way do I get the message, "I'm better than you are" - until those damned big fish swallowing Darwin showed up.

IXOYE = sign of the fish; "Jesus Christ, Son of God, Savior"
code = a question as well as a declaration: Do you/I believe that Jesus is the Messiah. Remember, persecutions came not only from the Romans (who saw us as an annoying sect), but also from the Jewish leaders - who, at the time, were comparable to Falwell and Robertson.


Excellent points, Berry! :hi:

[really annoyed]

41. I don't have a problem

I don't have a problem with the Darwin fish. I've only seen one as compared to the many Jesus fish I have seen. Of course, I don't really care what people put on their cars. :) Well, maybe a Bush/Cheney sticker, haha...

As my mom would say, whatever makes you happy!

The Darwin fish doesn't mean atheist liberal either, just as the Jesus fish doesn't mean right-wing fundamentalist. I saw one of the Darwin fish alongside a "Proud to be Pagan" bumper sticker once. Hey, you never know... Maybe a Christian would use that Darwin fish to stick it to the fundamentalists on the Right!

BTW, like your SpongeBob! Now that would make a good emblem for a car! :) I know my niece would love it!

[Ioo]

14. Because they have not evolved beyond FISH?

That is my guess...

[jazzjunkysue]

17. First time I saw the one with the feet, I laughed so hard, I almost drove

off the road. Brilliant. I want that one.

[DanCa]

21. James and John were fisherman

baptising people in rivers. I think the jesus fish is supposed to remind us of our baptisim rather than creation. And nowo I can't get the song out of my head. Take me too the river...Drop me in the water..."

[KittyWampus]

22. The Fish Symbol Is From Sacred Geometry- The Pisces Vesica

if DU'ers actually took the time to investigate the symbolism they might actually discover some Universal Truths and expand their frame of reference.

[ZombieNixon]

25. I see you tempered your words a bit.

But I'd wager a larger percentage of DUers know about the Vesica Piscis than people with JesusFish on their cars (counting the overlap, of course, I'm sure there are DUers who are down with the fish).

[scarletwoman]

31. Say it loud, say it proud -- the Fish Symbol is the Great Mother's Vagina!

[AuntieM1957]

33. nice of you to inform and insult us all in the same sentence n/t

[starroute]

60. Where's the insult?

All I saw was a simple statement of fact.

Vesica-like symbols of the vagina go back to Paleolithic cave art. The association with fish is also both ancient and obvious.

When geometry was invented, the vesica was formalized as the intersection of two circles.

When the earth-based religions of the Great Goddess were disestablished and replaced with desexualized and highly sublimated sky-god cults, the ancient symbol was retained, but its real meaning was forgotten and fish-based reinterpretations were provided instead.

But pop consciousness remembers the truths that formalized religion has forgotten:

I'm like a one-eyed cat peeping in a seafood store
I'm like a one-eyed cat peeping in a seafood store
Well, I can look at you and tell you ain't no child no more

On edit: I see I misread the threading, and the "insult" part was directed towards "if DU-ers took the time." Which may have been a little brusque, but given how much of the thread had been taken up with the official "fishers of men" version was perhaps not unwarranted.

[Qibing Zero]

37. Crap, universal truths!

Do we really have to believe those exist? ;)

[ComerPerro]

23. Its because of the Darwin fish, that mocks the Jesus Fish

[Davis_X_Machina]

24. You need to see the latest take on the fish...

...and one that borders on blasphemy, IMHO.

Click here. You may want to be sitting down.

Special bulk order discounts for churches, too, according to the website.

[ZombieNixon]

26. Ho. Ly. Crap.

Bushism is bordering on its own religion, it seems.

:scared:

[supernova]

28. Truely blasphemous!

:puke:

Thats even more grotesque than the two Darwin fish humping. :crazy:

You know, I used to not mind seeing the fish. It's kinda a comforting symbol in its most basic form.

But the RW fundies who have appropriated it as their own have defiled it for me. It's so hackneyed anymore as to be drained of a lot of its meaning.

[Agnomen]

29. Thanks for posting that link

I really needed a good laugh

[mitchum]

44. That is so fucked up! I'm offended (and I'm not even a Christian)

[RevCheesehead]

58. UNCLEAN! UNCLEAN!!!

Aaaargh! I'm going blind!!! :cry:

[AuntieM1957]

27. If you expect logic in anything these right-wingers do, you're

fishing without bait.

In the early days of Christianity, the fish was a "secret" code. Way to know a fellow and sign of a meeting place.

But what now passes for "Christianity" bears so little resemblance to Jesus' teachings, that it is virtually unrecognizable.

I stopped attending "Christian" churches many years ago when they started drifting to the right and to the looney. When I go back now, I feel a bit like I'm in a foreign land. They've changed that much.

Now, I think that the right wingers look to it as a sign of a fellow believer in all things "born again".

They get very offended when I tell them I'm a Christian who believes in evolution, supports human rights for everyone on the planet, thinks a woman can decide what grows in her body or on it, and that I consider myself a patriot, too.

In their brain-washing, only "THEY" are right - and the fish is their way of telling us we're all wrong.

[ZombieNixon]

30. Why do you hate 'Murka?

You realize every time you say something like that, the baby Jesus cries.

:sarcasm:

[Mr_Spock]

39. LOL - poor baby Jesus is weeping today

but it's because the right-wing psychopaths are doing the OPPOSITE of almost EVERYTHING he railed against!! And we (USA) make fun of Muslims for being backward! HUH!!

[ZombieNixon]

40. Do you know how many angels lost their wings because you said that?!

:spank:

:sarcasm:

[Mr_Spock]

42. They do tend to believe in mystical "flying creatures" like ancient Greece

don't they :D

Do you think if I can come up with some sort of newfangled magic that I can get these mindless sheep to follow me?

I'd love to hand out the special kool aid :rofl:

[ZombieNixon]

46. Discover the next book of the Bible.

Call it...the Book of Spock. Here's your connection: Mr. Spock, played on Star Trek by Leonard Nimoy; Leonard Nimoy, the son of Russian Jewish immigrants; Jews, historical inhabitants of a land known as Judea; Judea, primarily where Jesus Christ preached; Jesus Christ, reputed to be the Son of God. See, now you're credible!

[Mr_Spock]

50. Spock, son of man

"Live long and Prosper"

Now drop $20 in the collection tin or I'll excommunicate you :rofl:

[ZombieNixon]

51. Bam! You're L. Ron Hubbard!

See how easy it is?

[Mr_Spock]

53. Kewl. Is L. Ron anything like Enron?

If so, sign me up - because money is my religion. :D

[ZombieNixon]

55. In my book, yes, Scientology is just like Enron.

A ginormous scam to get people's money.

[Mr_Spock]

56. Money makes the world go round, the world go round, the world go round

Good ol' L. Ron. What kind of stupid name is that anyway? Did he just figure a cool way to make his name sound like an acronym?

[ZombieNixon]

57. According to Wikipedia, his given name was "Lafayette"

So I can understand why he would want to go with "L." I, however, would have dropped the L and just called meself "Ron Hubbard." Nothing wrong with going by your middle name.

[Mr_Spock]

59. Lafayette the big stick

An old CB radio handle I remember from way back. Perhaps this conversation is getting off track a bit - carry on :D

[ZombieNixon]

65. Longest. Threadjacking. Ever.

At least in one of my threads. :P

[bluedawg12]

32. The fish is the symbol of Christians

The fish is the symbol of Christians going back to when they were
persecuted in ancient Rome.

It derives from two things I know of:

1.) The miracle of the fish and loaves.

2.) Christ said I will make you a fisher of men. i.e. to save their souls.

I don’t know of it as a symbol of creationism other than the tie in that is central to Christianity that Christ is God.

[ZombieNixon]

34. Chris?

Sca-ry!

[bluedawg12]

35. Yea, Chris, you know Chris? n/t

[ZombieNixon]

36. I know many people named Chris.

I would not want any of them to be in charge of the universe!

[bluedawg12]

66. they are all waiters/ n/t

[mitchum]

43. They just make this shit up as they go along

[Holly_Hobby]

45. Picsces Vesica

http://www.geomancy.org/sacred_geometry/sacgeo-5.html

That site explains the math behind it. The Pisces Vesica is also the source of the shape of gothic windows.

[benburch]

47. Maybe because they are reacting to this...

[Rosco T.]

48. I keep a Darwin and Evolve fish on my car...

.. makes em nuts...

[Graf Orlok]

49. It was hijacked from RWers (from true Christians) who claim...

they are the followers of Christ, when in reality, they aren't.

[justabob]

52. Hijaking an established symbol

and using it as their own.

[fuzzybunny]

61. You want fish? Here's a fish for ya.

http://imageshack.us>

Virtually unique in the animal kingdom, with a saga steeped in science and popular imagination, the fabulous Coelacanth ("see-la-kanth"), that 400 million year old "living fossil" fish, paddles on. Pre-dating the dinosaurs by millions of years and once thought to have gone extinct with them, 65 million years ago, the Coelacanth with its "missing link" "proto legs" was "discovered" alive and well in 1938!

[Lilith Velkor]

62. Cthulhu will eat them all.

[Hardrada]

64. I thought of a piranha style Xian fish with TEETH

years ago. Just draw one but add teeth in the head part. It perfectly symbolizes Right wing political Xianity.

[SidDithers]

67. Symbol for Intelligent design...

May you be forever touched by his noodly appendage.

Sid

[MazeRat7]

68. Define "suddenly"... its been that way for at least 6+ years

It became more "defined" right after the first "fish with legs" logos showed up... I seem to recall that was sometime in the late 90's.

MZr7

[LittleClarkie]

69. It is a Christian symbol

I believe its origin is not that simple. It was used as sorta gang graffiti so that Christians could communicate with each other. If I recall correctly, the symbol is a combination of a couple of words in Greek... maybe... something like that. It is not exactly a "loaves and fishes thing". It's more of a "fisher of men" thing.

That doesn't mean that all Christians believe in literal Creationism. I think of the Creation story as more of a parable, meself. So why, if one believes in God, couldn't he have used evolution to create. After all, what is a day to God. Who's to say it might not be millions of years.

Anyway, the Bible is neither a science nor a history book, except to be the history of the faith of a people. As such, the point would seem to be that God created. How he created is none of my damned business.

Meanwhile back at the ranch, perhaps if certain evolutionists wouldn't have put feet on and the word "Darwin" in their version of the fishie, it wouldn't have become a symbol for those Christians who believe in literal creationism. It was the evolutionists what started it, I reckon. Shame on thee.

;)