Can we attempt an honest account of the NOLA death toll?

[buzzsaw_23]

It seems a certainty that the death toll will be hidden and understated in a number of ways. Is it possible to get an accurate assessment if we keep collecting articles from various sources? Here is a sloppy start with the hopes of getting a more organized compilation.

This from a new DUer at thread/link posted below.
I'm new here and don't have enough posts to start a new thread, perhaps someone could copy and paste this post and start a thread in general discussion.

Here is the reason the death toll is so low.

The numbers are being cooked based on direct versus indirect deaths from Katrina.

They aren't counting lack of water, food, heat stroke, or disease in the death count.

Both these articles are from NOLA.com. Notice 152 bodies in the coroner's office, yet only 20???? from Katrina related deaths.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x1772779

Lee reports on deaths in Jefferson
Friday, 10:05 p.m.

Sheriff Harry Lee said Saturday night that the Jefferson Parish Coroner’s office had processed 152 bodies, but only 20 of those were deaths related to Hurricane Katrina. He said the coroner’s office was picking up bodies that are reported lying in the street and handling them to FEMA’s specifications. He also said that body count does not include bodies that may have been taken to the morgue in St. Gabriel.

One challenge came last week at Louis Armstrong International Airport in New Orleans, where Trevino saw about 1,000 desperately ill people, including 50 who, he said, were expected to die.

"Anybody who died as a direct result of Hurricane
Katrina will be counted as a death caused by the
storm. This would include people who drowned in
floodwaters, as well as patients who died when they
could not receive needed medical treatment."


State officials said that 161 bodies were being stored at a mobile morgue site in St. Gabriel about 20 miles south of Baton Rouge; three were in the St. Charles Parish morgue, 25 were in the Jefferson Parish morgue, five were in the St. Tammany Parish morgue and three were in the Iberia Parish morgue.

www.nola.com

[BrklynLiberal]

1. No honest count will be allowed by BFEE

[annabanana]

2. I thought this was why CNN brought suit!

They've been given "perission" to cover this properly.. Why no stories from St. Gabriel? Why no more pictures of refrigerated trucks?

Somethings a little off here....

[Helga Scow Stern]

27. And no reporters are allowed in the morgue.

From Sunday Los Angeles Times.

[katsy]

3. The number of fatalities will be revealed.

It's only a matter of time.

The relatives and friends of the deseased will not participate in a cover up.

I heard the 911 families were reaching out to the victims of hurricane Katrina. I'm sure with their guidance, the victims of the hurricane will somehow want to honor their dead also.

[texpatriot2004]

4. Are they still doing that fuzzy math? Are they counting citizens

like they count soldiers? That's really disrespectful of the dead you know, not to count them properly.

[DoYouEverWonder]

5. The first thing they need is a list of the missing

That's how they did it on 9-11.

They listed everyone who could possibly be missing and then eliminated names has bodies were ID'd or people turned up. The same thing needs to be done for the NOLA disaster.

In the end we will have a fairly accurate count. Too many people will notice if their family member or neighbors name isn't on the list and they find out they died.

[expatriot]

6. Here's Wikipedia's count with links to sources - confirmed 592+

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurricane_Katrina#Death_toll_.28summary.29

[buzzsaw_23]

9. This comment seems to allow for fudging the numbers

"Anybody who died as a direct result of Hurricane
Katrina will be counted as a death caused by the
storm. This would include people who drowned in
floodwaters, as well as patients who died when they
could not receive needed medical treatment."

And I wonder about the homeless of which there were many in New Orleans. Will they be tabulated? Many of these folks have no family.

[texpatriot2004]

14. The link is very informative; number on TV was less than 592+

though wasn't it?

[annabanana]

16. bookmarked!

note the column headings,
"confirmed deaths" vs "direct deaths"

[BOHICA06]

7. Does a disinterred body - count as a body?

A terrible effect of flood is the dead have a habit of floating upward through saturated soil in their well-sealed caskets. A body is a body and has to be processed. Just an idea.

[IndyOp]

8. Recommend this please! We NEED to know the truth! (nt)

[Psephos]

10. "They" can't suppress the numbers because the coroners are local govt

Let's not waste ammo on unresearched conspiracy theories.

Accounting for the dead is the responsibility of local governments, including the police, the coroner's office, district attorneys and assorted court offices, and hospitals and doctors. Further corroborating records are kept by funeral homes and cemeteries. Each affected family also has its own records. The Times-Picayune is guaranteed to be looking into any hanky-panky. In short, such a conspiracy would require the cooperation of hundreds, if not thousands, of people to make a massive cover-up - people who have no political interest in such a cover-up, and great risk to career and person if found out.

If the federal government attempted to suppress these data, and was subsequently found out, the scandal would bring a political Katrina down on Washington that would scour it cleaner than the beachfront at Biloxi. Establishment politicos do not take that kind of risk.

With Google on every computer, it doesn't take that much effort to find out how the system for handling deaths and bodies actually works. So make the effort before working up into a lather. Hint: avoid political sites from either end of the spectrum if you are looking for facts. Neither politics nor religion is a friend of neutral, factual research.

Enough said.

Peace.

[annabanana]

12. The mortuary function has been taken over by FEMA

We need more than paperwork to keep track of this. We need eyes on the ground.
(recommended)

[applegrove]

11. It will be honest. One the press is aloud to ask. Two the databases

with missing are up and all consolidated. This is good news if it is less than thousands.

[whatever4]

13. What I don't get

Are the statements, begun over the weekend I think, that the death count may be much less than feared. But, from what I could see, no reasons were given for this "more hopeful" projection, no evidence, no statements with any facts, just that they "think" the death count will be much lower.

It would have been nice to hear some, ANY, reason for this more optimistic outlook. Some basis in fact, some rational, anything. If there were any, I didn't hear them. Just an official statement. Probably from Bush himself, eh? That's my opinion.

[Celebration]

15. supposedly from searches of neighborhoods

Fewer people had been in their homes than thought. This was at least in some neighborhoods. So the thought was based on their sampling of rescue efforts.

[annabanana]

17. do you recall ANYTHING SPECIFIC in the report?

The name of the neighborhood?... the number of households searched?..anything at all?

No.. because the "news" report is NOT a news report. The American people can no longer tell the difference.

(Who?, What, When? Where?, Why?, and How?)

[whatever4]

21. That's where I'm going

We heard these statements, but they seem to come out of the blue. Fewer deaths than feared, when they're only now beginning to collect the dead? I just don't buy into it. It sounds too spun, reporting a lower body count long before they could POSSIBLY have any real idea. An irresponsible public statement (lie) made by irresponsible leaders; it makes more sense than not.

To make us all feel better. NO basis in fact, far as I can see.

[Francine Frensky]

18. It's called "divide and conquer" and it's Rove's trick

now that Rove is back in the game, look for more spin like this.

This is very simple: the game is to create a whole bunch of categories for deaths (think 9 or 10 different things people could have died of) and then only release one category to the public.

So you put deaths into categories like: drowning, disease (various categories), wind-related, lack of care, dehydration....

And then anybody who was old and who died is "not a victim of Katrina",the spin is they might have died that week anyway, so they will not be counted. ALL nursing home deaths are probably being excluded from the counts. ALL homeless people (I'm guessing NO had quite a few) will not be counted as nobody will be found to name them (some of their bodies probably washed out to sea anyway).

In the end, don't ever expect to see a total, except you might see a few hundred from Louisiana added to the hundred from Miss. and AL.

[elehhhhna]

19. 1,200 children still w/o parents. 'splain that.

[annabanana]

23. Oh you know "those" people....

"they" just pop them out every year like clockwork.. completely irresponsible..

1200 kids? Maybe a dozen parents.... (no math allowed)

[elehhhhna]

24. (Reuters) 9/11-- Official Kat. death toll passes 400

Official Hurricane Katrina death toll passes 400
Sun Sep 11, 2005 6:04 PM ET

BATON ROUGE (Reuters) - The official death toll from Hurricane Katrina rose to more than 400 on Sunday, as Louisiana officials raised the number of confirmed deaths to 197 from the August 29 storm.

Most of the Louisiana dead are now at a morgue established in the city of St. Gabriel, the state Department of Health and Hospitals said in a statement.

The death toll in Mississippi is confirmed to be at least 211 and the storm killed seven in Florida.
http://today.reuters.com/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=topNews&storyID=2005-09-11T220316Z_01_WRI179335_RTRIDST_0_NEWS-DEATHS-DC.XML

[Bluebear]

20. Diebold to announce final body count as 213. n/t

[leftchick]

22. CNN saying 197 right now, WHEW!

gimme a break.

[buzzsaw_23]

28. more than 40 corpses found in hospital

More than 40 corpses found in flooded New Orleans hospital

9/12/2005, 6:11 p.m. CT
By ADAM NOSSITER
The Associated Press
 

NEW ORLEANS (AP) — The bodies of more than 40 mostly elderly patients were found in a flooded-out hospital in the biggest known cluster of corpses to be discovered so far in hurricane-ravaged New Orleans.

The exact circumstances under which they died were unclear, with at least one hospital official saying Monday that some of the patients had died before the storm, while the others succumbed to causes unrelated to Katrina.

The announcement, which could raise Louisiana's death toll to nearly 280, came as President Bush got his first up-close look at the destruction, and business owners were let back in to assess the damage and begin the slow process of starting over.

http://www.nola.com/newsflash/weather/index.ssf?/base/news-19/112653504142601.xml&storylist=hurricane

[paineinthearse]

25. Liberty Belle has a similar post

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=4741193&mesg_id=4743527

[buzzsaw_23]

31. Katrina's Forgotten Victims: Native American Tribes

Katrina's Forgotten Victims: Native American Tribes

News Report, C. Stone Brown,
Imdiversity, Sep 11, 2005
The early news headlines for Hurricane Katrina highlighted some black New Orleans residents "taking" goods from businesses. Days later, the coverage shifted from "looting" to sympathetic coverage of black evacuees and criticism of President Bush and the Federal Emergency Management Agency. But despite the constant media coverage, Native Americans have become Katrina's forgotten victims.

Native American tribes that stretch across the Gulf States of Alabama, Louisiana and Mississippi affected by the wrath of Hurricane Katrina largely have been ignored.

"What we are hearing is there has been no contact or minimum contact with most of the tribes," said Robert Holden, National Congress of American Indians (NCAI), who estimates there are several thousand Native Americans living in the hurricane's path. But like other news accounts regarding the dead, there are no firm numbers on the death toll.

What we do know is there are at least six federally recognized tribes located in Alabama, Louisiana and Mississippi. They include the Poarch Band Creek in Alabama, Coushatta India Tribe, Jena Band of Choctaw and Tunica-Biloxi Tribe in Louisiana, and the Chitimacha Tribe and the Choctaw Indians in Mississippi.

Although communications with the tribes has been very limited, Holden said there was one particular tribal area near in Chalmette, La., that had a gruesome story. "This tribal representative said they were using Chalmette High School as a morgue. Evidently, they are in proximity to New Orleans, and they have heard from no one in five or six days."


http://news.pacificnews.org/news/view_article.html?article_id=a58740ea9116f7315f40fe4eb23513fc

[mopinko]

26. LOST is the word

someone needs to start a web site, with the names and addresses of any family or friends that have not been heard from since before the storm. scattered people could hook up, and those whose bodies have been weighted down and pushed out to sea will still be counted.
all those LOST need to be counted.

[buzzsaw_23]

29. From St. Bernard Parish

Bodies of the dead still were being collected Monday. Sheriff Jack Stephens said the parish death toll stood at 56 but officials knew of at least 10 more locations where they needed to recover bodies. He said the highest risk areas, where water covered the roofs of houses, hadn't been searched yet.

http://www.nola.com/newsflash/weather/index.ssf?/base/news-19/1126564442135951.xml&storylist=hurricane

[buzzsaw_23]

30. no stories- no photos bodies just being disappeared

As bodies recovered, reporters are told 'no photos, no stories'
- Cecilia M. Vega, Chronicle Staff Writer
Tuesday, September 13, 2005



New Orleans -- A long caravan of white vans led by an Army humvee rolled Monday through New Orleans' Bywater district, a poor, mostly black neighborhood, northeast of the French Quarter.

Recovery team members wearing white protective suits and black boots stopped at houses with spray painted markings on the doors designating there were dead bodies inside.

Outside one house on Kentucky Street, a member of the Army 82nd Airborne Division summoned a reporter and photographer standing nearby and told them that if they took pictures or wrote a story about the body recovery process, he would take away their press credentials and kick them out of the state.

"No photos. No stories," said the man, wearing camouflage fatigues and a red beret.

On Saturday, after being challenged in court by CNN, the Bush administration agreed not to prevent the news media from following the effort to recover the bodies of Hurricane Katrina victims.

But on Monday, in the Bywater district, that assurance wasn't being followed. The 82nd Airborne soldier told reporters the Army had a policy that requires media to be 300 meters -- more than three football fields in length -- away from the scene of body recoveries in New Orleans. If reporters wrote stories or took pictures of body recoveries, they would be reported and face consequences, he said, including a loss of access for up-close coverage of certain military operations

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2005/09/13/MNG3HEMQHG1.DTL&type=printable

[buzzsaw_23]

32. Over 50 Evacuees Have Died in TX

Over 50 Katrina evacuees have died in TX
Sep 14, 2005, 11:50 AM


HOUSTON (AP) - Medical examiners says at least 53 Hurricane Katrina evacuees from the New Orleans area have died since coming to Texas.

In Harris County, which includes Houston, most of the 35 deaths were from natural causes, including several heart attacks and complications from cancer. Two refugees killed themselves since an estimated 240-thousand Gulf Coast residents fled to Texas because of the August 29th storm.

There was one dead fetus, and ages of the adult dead ranged from 20 to 104. Many were elderly living in hospitals, hospice centers and nursing homes.

A 71-year-old man from New Orleans died inside the mass shelter at the Astrodome, and a 90-year-old woman died in the stadium parking lot.


snip


http://www.katc.com/Global/story.asp?S=3849680&nav=EyAz...