Just what is the armageddon scenario?

[spinbaby]

After waking to the news that Israel attacked a base in Syria this morning, I remembered that there had been some discussion in here about how the fundies look for, and even encourage, middle-east conflict because it's a sign that we're getting closer to armageddon. So I went out googling to find out what it is that they're looking for as signs and how the attack on Syria might be interpreted as another "sign." Unfortunately, all I came up with was some pretty incoherent stuff pointing to everything from AIDS to debit cards as signs of impending armageddon.

Can someone here explain just what armageddon has to do with the middle east and what the fundies think is going to happen? Also, I've heard allegations that some in the Bush administration believe in this and are encouraging strife in the middle east to hurry the scenario along--anything to this?

[arcos]

1. I found this...

Prophecies of the Nations . . . Syria

Damascus will be completely destroyed and will be uninhabitable . . .

Syria is almost a 'city-state' with much of its population living in and around the city of Damascus. Some historians and archaeologists believe Damascus may be the oldest continually inhabited city in the world and there is no record in ancient history of it ever being fully destroyed. Syria is also the home of many Islamic terrorist groups and its army invaded and has occupied Lebanon for almost 30 years.

<snip>

"The burden of Damascus.

Behold, Damascus is taken away from a city,

and it shall be a ruinous heap . . ."
(Isaiah 17:1 KJV)
<snip>

God tells us why destruction will come upon Syria, the nations of the world, and Israel . . .


"Because thou hast forgotten the God of thy salvation,

and hast not been mindful of the rock of thy strength,

(Isa 17:10)

<snip>

When will all this take place?

I honestly don't know. But, Jesus says . . .

"And what I say to you, I say to all - Watch!"

(Mark 13:37 NKJ)

Have a hard time believing in God? Just watch the news. We are living in dangerous times. The above verses are clear. God says He is the one who will bring judgment against Syria ... and against Israel ... and against all the people and nations of the world who will not turn away from their sinful, unbelieving ways and return to Him (the Bible also warns the 'lukewarm,' unbelieving Christian will not be spared) . . .


<snip>

http://www.theprophecies.com/Nations%20Syria.html


Really scary site... but your question is very interesting and I've been thinking a little about this in the last few days. Thank you, you made me remember to google it. :D

[spinbaby]

13. Ack!

That is a scary site. And kind of reinforces the idea someone is encouraging mid-east violence because of this apocolyptic nonsense. Could this be behind some of the stupidity Shrub's gang has shown in dealing with the middle east? I've always thought that it was just general greed and stupidity but now I'm beginning to think it's greed, stupidity, AND religious fanaticism.

[bearfartinthewoods]

2. may i suggest you take this sincere yet provocative enquiry

to one of the hundreds of religion based forums for your answers instead of adding fuel to the flames and the distractions on this POLITICAL forum.

edited for some wisp of clarity

[RC]

4. As long as bu$h thinks war is the answer

and his base are right wing fundies, this is pertinent here.

[bearfartinthewoods]

5. in an ideal world i'd agree but based on the resurgence of religious

threads yesterday i'm having a hard time not viewing this with a bit of suspicion.

[truth2power]

26. The religious IS political

in this particular case. IMHO.

[SpaceCatMeetsMars]

3. They believe that the Bible says that the world will end after

the Jews come home to Israel and rebuild a temple at the Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem. Right now a Moslem temple is there. Ariel Sharon seemed to encourage the beliefs when he went to the site in 2000 and spoke aggressively about how Jerusalem would not be divided. There are people with plans for the Christian temple to be built.

They think Jesus will come back to that site. They even have a web camera trained on the spot hoping he will come. Some think that the Earth must be prepared for Jesus by being Christianized first. Others think that the Rapture will take up the "true" Christians to heaven and then terrible tribulations will occur on Earth and that the Jews will then convert to Christianity.

They think the Anti-Christ will lead an army to the Mid-East and there will be a great final battle. They suspect that the Anti-Christ will be affiliated with the UN or the European Union or some similar world body.

Here is one good source of information:

http://www.publiceye.org/tooclose/apoc.html

The web site is called Political Research Associates.

[baldguy]

6. All the xian apocalyptic stuff is pretty incoherant.

The kicker is that the fundie nuts actually WANT Armageddon to happen - and they'll do anything to help it along.

Basicly, at the day of Judgement, everyone who has ever lived will be brought back to life and judged by God. Those who are pure - the fundie nuts - will achieve salvation, and those who are not pure - the rest of us - will be cast into hell to suffer eternal damnation.

but BEFORE that can happen, certain things must occur - one of which is that there must be a Jewish state in the land of Isreal, the Hebrew Temple in Jerusalem must be rebuilt and rededicated - with the blood of a perfect red hefer, and all the armies of the earth must gather together - after the defeat of Isreal - at Meggido for the fight the final battle.

American xian fundies' support for Isreal is not based on thier love for the Jewish people, it's just a prerequisite for them to meet Big Daddy.

[HootieMcBoob]

7. I thought it was...

The Red Sox and the Cubs facing each other in the World Series?

[Muddleoftheroad]

23. Best post of the day

Thanks for making me smile.

[devinsgram]

8. By the 22nd century

all these fundies will begin to see that armageddon is not going to happen. All through history there have been times when one could say that we are in the end times.It has happened before and it will happen again. After almost 2000 years we are still here. Eventually Christians will begin to see and believe there will be no second coming, unfortunatly by the time this happens we won't be around to see it.

[TreasonousBastard]

9. It's all based on The Revelation of St. John...

the last book of the Bible.

For 2000 years, people have been trying to figure out what it means, and every 50 years or so someone claims to come up with some sort of mystical key proving that the end of the world and return of Jesus is imminent. There have been past major movements both here and in Europe when "millenium fever" caught hold.

They have all been wrong.

Lots of wars and worldwide destruction, the Temple in Jerusalem will be rebuilt, the faithful (all of them throughout history) will rise from the grave, Christ will return, there will be a period of great peace, and every one of the faithful will be scooted off to heaven while the rest of the world and the unrepentant sinners fry.

Not necessarily in that order.

Most actual biblical scholars agree that Revelation is inscrutable, but does not give a timeline for the return of Christ. Rather, it is a message to the early churches about the expansion of Christianity and is mostly allegories and symbols. It is mysterious and written in "codes" because of the early persecutions. Some wonder why it was included in the canon by the early authorities.

The end-of-timers are once again setting themselves up for a great disappointment, but you can't argue with blind faith.

[peabody71]

10. Want to read something messed up?

http://www.johntitor.com
Laugh all you want, but then read:
http://www.4rie.com
The later was a guest on the Meria Heller show. You can hear it free until Monday at her 'most recent show' link.
http://www.meria.net

[charlie]

11. Fundie Endtimers

are a lot like those who pore over Nostradamus quatrains, s-t-r-e-t-c-h-i-n-g verse to match current events.

Hal Lindsey wrote the biggest selling book of the 70s peddling this baloney. The linchpin for his timetable was scripture predicting the blossoming of a fig tree in the desert -- the rebirth of Israel -- which would usher in the last generation. It's been 55 years, we're still here. He predicted that the European Common Market would grow to include 10 members and fulfill the role of the 10 horns of the 7-headed beast. The Common Market surpassed 10 members, we're still here. He pegged the Soviet Union for the role of Gog. The Soviet Union is no more and Russia's influence the world's stage is vastly diminished. And so on and on...

Is Hal abashed and hiding somewhere, regarded as the fool who couldn't get his scripture straight? No, he's still prophesizin' and pulling in money:

http://www.hallindseyoracle.com/

Endtimers want Apocalypse Right Now. They can't bear living mundane lives, not when they can imagine themselves soldiers in the final battle of Good vs Evil. They are some of the most gullible and driven -- and dangerous -- people in the country.

[Zynx]

12. It's always been my impression...

that the Book of Revelation was actually written in code for the early Christians and is not actually a revelation from Jesus. In fact, at the Council of Nicea, there was great debate regarding whether or not to include the Book of Revelation in the Bible, but they decided to. The Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches have since periodically debated taking the book out.

[Gman2]

19. Try this

most people have it all wrong. There will be a peacemaker from the seleucid portion of the Roman empire. Iran,Iraq,Syria and a part of Turkey. He will allow the Jews to rebuild their temple. He will be the great hope of the end to middle east violence. 3.5 years into renewed sacrifices in the temple, he declares that he is to be worshipped there. There are many terrible things that happen. Supposedly, man does not die during this period and wishes the mountains to fall on them as things are that bad. Jesus has supposedly taken believers out. The nonbeliever Jews have been kept unbelieving as they have a job to do for God. Man goes thru hell on earth for the duration of the seven years when the man of evil is bound and a thousand years of peace begins. At the end of that thousand years, TTTTTTTTHHHHEEEENNNN earth passes away and a revamped earth, much closer to the garden of eden is begun. That's now till he appears, seven years of tribulation, a thousand years of MILLENNIUM, then a peaceful end to earth. Not very doomsday in the end. Those rushing it know not the story. The real debate is pre,during,post tribulation rapture. Any man who seems dangerous or powerful cannot be the antichrist. He comes spreading rosepedals. The Jews mistake him for the saviour they have been expecting all this time. They later realize Jesus always was the one and become incredibly powerful once this is realized. They do great things resisting.

[charlie]

24. "...most people have it all wrong"

That's what they ALL say.

"The real debate is pre,during,post tribulation rapture."

No, the real debate is how to keep such morbid desires from affecting our governance.

[Gman2]

21. quick paraphrase

most people have it all wrong. There will be a peacemaker from the seleucid portion of the Roman empire. Iran,Iraq,Syria and a part of Turkey. He will allow the Jews to rebuild their temple. He will be the great hope of the end to middle east violence. 3.5 years into renewed sacrifices in the temple, he declares that he is to be worshipped there. There are many terrible things that happen. Supposedly, blood flows as high as a horses bridal in that place when he is resisted. During this period man wishes the mountains to fall on them as things are that bad. Jesus has supposedly taken believers out. The nonbeliever Jews have been kept unbelieving as they have a job to do for God. Man goes thru hell on earth for the duration of the seven years when the man of evil is bound and a thousand years of peace begins. At the end of that thousand years, TTTTTTTTHHHHEEEENNNN earth passes away and a revamped earth, much closer to the garden of eden is begun. That's now till he appears, seven years of tribulation, a thousand years of MILLENNIUM, then a peaceful end to earth. Not very doomsday in the end. Those rushing it know not the story. The real debate is pre,during,post tribulation rapture. Any man who seems dangerous or powerful cannot be the antichrist. He comes spreading rosepedals. The Jews mistake him for the saviour they have been expecting all this time. They later realize Jesus always was the one and become incredibly powerful once this is realized.

[sam sarrha]

32. the Revelation of John, was written 80 years after the death of Christ..

it was a rail against the roman invaders in code to protect the author from being cat food, by a guy named John ...nothing to do with "John"... Armageddon is the last world war that will destroy all civilization, but Jesus will come and save the True Believers out of the ashes and create heaven on earth... so you better Believe or you are Go'n straight to hell!! I got this crap in Sunday School from age 5 in the Free Holliness Pentecostal church, I now feel it was Fundamentalist Christian Extremists abusing, tormenting and torturing small children.... the worst part is that we have Politicians in HIGH places that are apparently working to actualize God's WORD and make it happen so Jesus will come and save the believers.. this follows with the W's social political policies... destroy them and a Republican Utopia will rise out of the ashes..

[Devils Advocate NZ]

14. Ok, here is the real deal...

Ok let's get some facts straight.

Firstly, the word Armageddon is actually a transliteration of the name Har Megiddo which means 'the mount of Megiddo'. Here is a little info on the history of Har Megiddo:

Megiddo is the only site in Israel mentioned by every great power in the Ancient Near East and is widely regarded as the most important biblical period site in Israel. Biblical Megiddo was the scene of several battles that decided the fate of all Asia west of the Euphrates. Surrounded by mighty fortifications, outfitted with sophisticated water installations, and adorned with impressive palaces and temples, Megiddo was the queen of cities of Canaan and Israel.

<SNIP>

Megiddo’s military importance and long history as an international battleground is aptly reflected in the Apocalypse of John in the Book of Revelations (16:14-16). Armageddon (meaning "the mount of Megiddo") is designated as the site where, at the end of days, the demons will gather the hosts of the nations for the ultimate battle against the forces of God.
http://www.tau.ac.il/humanities/archaeology/megiddo/history.html

There have been many battles in this area over the years, including during WWI. Basically, this area sits astride the easiest route between the north of Israel and the south. Thus any army coming from the north would be tempted to come through this area, and this area would be the easiest place to defend against them. I believe the end times prophecy states that the forces of evil will come from the north (for example from Syria) and this is where they will be stopped.

I believe there is a major Israeli base nearby, and also a major highway running through the area, so this may make it an important site for an invasion of Israel.

The point is, though, that Har Megiddo was a major battle ground even in biblical days, so predicting a future battle in that place would not be so unusual. In fact there have been many since the prophecy was written.

[in_cog_ni_to]

15. The Republicans are planning on the end of the world

and the White House has asked for a complete explanation of it from Jack Van Impe....a man who has predicted the end of the world.

Here's a link.

http://www.unknownnews.net/apocalypsenow.html

Here's a link to the Jack Van Impe web site.

http://www.jvim.com/

This is just ONE more reason to fear this administration....I think they are TRYING make the prophesy happen.

[DoYouEverWonder]

17. W does claim

to have been chosen by god. Even though he also claims to have won the 2000 election and we know thats a lie.

However, there are people in positions of power, who for numerous reasons would like to make sure the prophecies are fulfilled. The difference between now and the past is that we don't need god to do the job, we are more than capable of doing it to ourselves and as noted above enough people in key positions who are willing.

That's probably why Smirk Boy stayed home this weekend, he can't wait to get to push the button.

[rasputin1952]

25. Van Impe is an idiot...

I believe he is one of the "false prophets".

And YES, this administration, on several occasions, stated that they are on "a mission from God", bush is "chosen" to lead the war on evil, etc, as naseum.

IMHO, they are simply full of themselves, and the arrogant egotistical positions this admin takes on so many views, just enhances my opinion that htey are clueless, and evil.

Two things pop into my mind immediately:

1. Why would God choose an idiot, via a contested election, to lead the world against evil?

2. IF the Great Battle does not come about, in say, the time frame Van Impe comes up with, and you decide to start a war to get Jesus to return, where is your standing with the God of mercy? Seems to me, you'd be hiding from the God of vengence. Killing hundreds of thousands or millions for something you cannot control, is a pretty serious sin.

These guys are willing to sacrifice millions, so that they can "get coser to God". Sorry boys, it doesn't work that way.

[DoYouEverWonder]

28. Of course you are right

And if we were dealing with rational people this wouldn't even be an issue. But these people are not rational and the ones that are in control are more than willing to use and manipulate that mind set. Besides the ones in power that don't believe this crap are more than happy to let 'Armagedon' happen anyway because it will get rid of so many useless eaters and then they won't have to share 'their' resources with so many people. Besides once they get rid of the masses, they won't have to worry about destroying the environment so quickly.

[rasputin1952]

33. Yes...

those masses of starving and diseased people that have little chance of surviving without help. Specifically, those that Jesus taught of. But it makes little difference to those who could care less, the raping of the earth will continue, rather than being stewards of the earth, we have become rapacious predators and consumers.

Those that perpetuate this type of mindset, are in for a rude awakening when they realize their own mortality, and all of the riches gained here on earth, cannot buy them another moments worth of time. They feel as if they are "above" the rest of humanity, and for all they have, they still have nothing of consequence; they have no dignity nor morality. They have no compassion, they are cold and dead inside, and they are the lonliest people on earth.

In one way, I feel sorry for them, in another, I say, tough shit.

[Mari333]

16. This site spells it out quite well

http://www.iraqwar.org/Armageddonupdates.htm

Some Fundamentalists Ache for Armageddon The 14 yr old classic warning by Allan C. Brownfeld: Those who pass from forecasting Armageddon to actively promoting it . How it all started.

4/19/02 Republican Congress Leaders as Dispensationalists -- Sen. Inhofe & Tom Delay--God Gave West Bank (& from Nile to Euphrates) to Sharon/Likud and letter to Inhofe>>

[Aidoneus]

18. probably people scaring themselves to death..

thinking about possibilities, rather than something actually happening to be "Armageddon".. Think of it this way:--the people who basically run the world would lose a lot of profits if things fell apart, and that would never be allowed to happen on purpose. :)

[leftofthedial]

20. just like the rest of their mumbo jumbo

they believe whatever the hell they want or whatever the hell they are told to believe. They are manipulated by "leaders" who either want their money ro their vote or their passivity.

Everything is a sign of the end times to one fundy or another.

PNAC wants the support of the fundies because it furthers their world conquest goals, so they foster the Armageddon and end times fantasies of the flocks of sheep through the manipulations of the PNAC's business partners (Robertson, Falwell, et al).

Praise Jeebus.

[rasputin1952]

22. It is all of the above...

and then some.

To be brief, take all of the previous posts and add this one simple line from Jesus himself, "neither the angels in Heaven, nor the Son know of this time, only the Father knows".

So while it is OK to watch for things, and prepare yourself for the end, (if there is an end before the sun turns to a red giant), of the world theologically. It is really not OK to stir up the masses into a frenzy of End Time Prognostications. I say this for some relatively simple reasons;

1. It entices hate.

2. It shows that those that are calling for the return of Jesus have little or no knowledge of when this occurrence might take place.

3. It sets the stage for gloom and doom, and actually takes AWAY hope and enlightenment.

4. It shows me that the "false prophet" business, and that is exactly what it is, a business, is alive and well


If all of these fundy writers and exponents of the Christian faith actually did what Christ suggested, take care of the pooor, feed the hungry, soothe the pain of the injured, etc; I might actually see some good to their work. But what I see instead, is a playing on the fears of those who think they might be able to buy faith at a revival meeting, at the expense of those who believe that Christ was the best hope for mankind.

I am a Christian, but I am lightyears from being a fundie. I AM prepared to give away all I have, (which isn't much, BTW, I just got laid off myself), to help those in need. No one ever left my table hungry, or had to beg me for favors. I just do what I think is right, and for me Christianity, REAL Christianity, in all of its humility, fits the bill.

I learned long ago.....When Jesus returns, He returns, there is nothing I can do to change that. It is my job to be personally responsible for my actions, and point out hypocrisy where I find it.

Sorry, didn't mean to go on so long, this is a complicated issue.

[FDRrocks]

27. The middle east is where the last war will be fought

according to some sites I read a while back. One of the impending signs of the Armageddon is a huge amassing of troops in the Valley of Jezraal (sp?). Jesus Christ will come down in that valley and lay both sides down with a sword (which apparently comes out of his mouth (OUCH))!

More signs are the birth of the blood red calf (which I hear happened), and the building of a new temple in Jerusalem.

If my timeline is correct, however, would peace will be obtained prior to this huge war.

But when we obtain world peace, the black book says, it will be Satan trying to fool the devout into following him, and good Christians will be opposed to the peaceful reign.

I don't buy it.

[Mairead]

29. Well, I've had a Divine Revelation, and Armageddon was called off

The last battle will be Ragnarök.

[ret5hd]

30. please read your pm from me (nt)

[On the Road]

31. The Armageddon Scenario Changes Every Generation

as people fit the prophecies to a new world situation.

In fact, the whole belief that Jesus would return and "rapture" all believers, then return after a seven-year period of tribulation, only dates to the 18th century.

Most early, medieval and renaissance believers were amillenial or post-millenialists and did not believe in Armageddon. In the 19th century, much of the Church was postmillenial, the more hopeful belief that Christianity will spread over the globe and the whole world will believe. (It accounts for all the missionary activiy then.) Those prophecying a violent end of the world were in the minority.

In the 20th century, most educated Christians discarded eschatology altogether and a large part of the church became fundamentalists of one kind or another. They would like you to believe their view of Revelation goes all the way back, but it doesn't.

[rasputin1952]

34. And we should not forget...

that the "world" back then, was the known world, of the middle-east.

I can feel confident, that there was little knowledge of Europe, Asia, perhaps India, Southern Africa. I can rest assured that N & S America were unheard of, and am virtually assured that Australia and Antarctica were unknown.

The "world" was indeed a smaller place back then.