Ques: Why aren't the Democratic Leaders all over computer voting (calf)

[cthrumatrix]

As the days go by and more is exposed by the great work of Bev Harris and her crew. The scandal around computer voting is become more "fact than fiction".... and is about to take center stage in California.

My major question is: where are the Democratic Leaders and thier concern around elctronic voting???

Furthermore, more puzzling is the lack of discussion by any of the presidential candidates in debates or interviews....why go through all the motion only to have it "stolen".

My concern leads me to conclusions that this situation gets at the very heart of "control". Who controls the ballot box and why? Why isn't the opposition that's screwed more angry?

I'm curious about your thoughts in this matter...thank you.

[Name removed]

1. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Mairead]

2. Are you doing sexism or speciesism?

[Triana]

5. partyism, actually

;)

I have no use for spineless democrats, progressives, liberals. They need passion and fire, and they need to be persistent and loud - lest they fail and go unheard and they've done that long enough.

[Eloriel]

11. I have no use for people who can't make their point

without resorting to sexist (made all the worse because they are vulgar) references.

Too bad, because otherwise I agree with you. But your language makes you my enemy.

Eloriel

[cthrumatrix]

13. Eloriel...can you answer my question on this subject..? Thank you

[Woodstock]

17. Agree Eloriel, I couldn't get past her use of that word

And since she seems to think it's cool, she's now on ignore. Why waste time, life is short.

Using the female anatomy to define a group of people in a negative way isn't cool.

[gristy]

22. I agree, Eloriel

Triana hurts his/her case irreparably.

[gristy]

4. I do indeed share your pain. But I do need to ask if you make it

a regular habit to call/write your government representatives to express your views. Do you write letters to your newspaper's editor? Your post here shows a lot of ANGER, and if you could channel that into productive activity, that would be wonderful.

[Triana]

7. YES...I do that

..of course. Has done not much good, but some. Still, IMO those Demos need to grow a spine. They're not speaking out loudly or often enough on the issues. They're not doing their jobs.

[knowledgeispower]

33. Oh please

"Write your representatives"??? That shit might work on a middle school civics class, but everyone in the real world knows that money is the only thing that gets things done...in politics and everything else.

[Cocoa]

3. my guess...

I think they're not in general speaking about it because from their point of view it doesn't look serious enough. They've been through elections first hand, a lot of them have been through close elections and recounts, maybe witnessed, or even committed, election fraud, so their perspective is different from that of the voters.

But remember that all 40, last I checked, of the cosponsors of the Holt bill calling for voter-verified paper ballots, are democrats.

[cthrumatrix]

6. Arnies number are rising from "nowhere" and it's a clear setup for

electronic voting to win the election.

The dems are not bring this up. Here is my opinion....flame away.

They are not becuase it's not about winning...dems/repubs are the same (yet they are not) when it comes to who controls them...it's money and corporations.

We are divided like sheep ...we are propagandized daily with the media. For those that have not read the Greg Palast article on the $$$ connection with Bustamante vs. the enrgy companies...take a read

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=471295&mesg_id=471295

[Triana]

9. uh-huh...that's why

more and more folks are going independent. the plutocracy is winning. we're losing. dems more often than not are part of the problem than part of the solution.

yea. flame away....not to worry, though, i'll vote for whatever dem wins the primary, most likely. it's the only chance WE have.

PS: Palast rocks! He's one of the few truely investigative journalists we have left in this country. Bless him.

[knowledgeispower]

32. I am afraid you might be right

But I think there are a few other possibilities that aren't quite so horrible to contemplate:

1. The Dems don't want to seem like they are off their rocker. Accusing somebody of trying to steal elections on a massive scale in a democracy is a VERY SERIOUS charge. If they don't have any proof, the Dems would be idiots to make the allegation.

2. The Dems have never wanted to acknowledge just how far the Republicans and the BFEE will go in furthering their sinister goals. Smear candidates, even vietnam vets with three missing limbs? Sure. Resort to outright bald faced lies in almost any situation? Of course. But steal elections? Let 9/11 happen? No way. Well they had better start facing the possibility.

[cthrumatrix]

8. I haven't heard a legitimate reason yet......?

[Triana]

10. Nope...

...don't hold your breath! Part of the problem isn't going to jump out and admit itself, I guess. :evilgrin:

[Cocoa]

29. see post #3

I think it's possible the dems don't see it as being as much of a problem as you do.

[peacetalksforall]

12. They have molasses blood and turtle legs

and reasons to be afraid if they don't play right wing games - some simple like a constituency of abortion haters or more likely, gun lovers. And they always have their pork sandwiches to worry about.

Dem congresspeople seem to really like Hagel.

Dem congresspeople seem to be burying their heads in the sand.

[cthrumatrix]

14. My friends this is the "underbelly" of the "problem".....we have lost

our country to corporatism and the elite. The dems/repugs are loyal and under control of them...not us.


They will fight on topics...but I get the sense this subject is taboo...and if it is...then you have to look at the reasons why they don't want US to vote for who WE want to win.

[gristy]

15. Here's why there is such a mute outcry against electronic voting

where are the Democratic Leaders and thier concern around elctronic voting???

Many don't understand electronic voting. Many don't understand how it is impossible to cheaply design a secure system that cannot be broken or corrupted. So they don't understand why you need an audit trail such as one provided by paper ballots. Most politicians are sheep. They sit in a big conference room with their committee members, listen to a big show from the electronic voting industry, and they buy into their message because that is the easy thing to do. They fear technological ridicule if they go against this flood of electronic voting support. They fear of being accused of being "stupid", a "consipiracy theorist", or worse. They fear losing their next fair election. They do not understand that they may lose their next election, but it won't be because the majority of those voting didn't vote for them.

[cthrumatrix]

18. I appreciate your thoughts...but I would be surprised if they felt that

way after the John Hopkins study. You can come out in favor of "fair voting"...paper ballots...how is that bad? You want each citizens vote to count.

Those that are for "not resolving this problem" ARE "part of the problem"....this is democracy...these are OUR RIGHTS not be taken seriously by any candidate.

We should see clear resolve by the dem. candidates for "having every vote count" to have double and triple checks.

Who can argue against that ? (only those that stand to lose)

[Le Taz Hot]

16. Because they're still under the misguided perseption

that it's all "conspiracy theory" stuff. I know. I've had this discussion with one of their "experts" who, when I mentioned Bev Harris and her team told me that she was "grandstanding" and "sensationalized her findings." Exact terminology.

The California Democratic Party has been in disaray the last few years despite the fact that all the top state spots went to Democrats. They're DNC driven and receive their orders directly from the top. It takes a LONG time to wake them up. One of their operatives is actually on this board. I got a PM from this person not too long ago (on a different subject) telling me to "let the party handle it." Right. One of the reasons this recall has gotten as far as it's gotten is that too many people "let the party handle it."

I've been blasting articles to them for the last year and I think EVENTUALLY they'll wake up. But it's a big machine and it takes time. I can tell you that the rank-and-file are aware of it and sooner or later, with enough people contacting them about this matter, they WILL wake up.

[cthrumatrix]

19. Well ....we will witness a stolen election again adn again....and why?

Because the powers that be .... need somebody that will be loyal to them and thier cause. And loyalty can be found in dem/repubs. they both serve their masters ($$$ and corporatism)....they decide who they want for strategic reasons in key positions....clearly this is important for them.

People can certainly share their opinion ...but when it comes to "why can't we have fool proof elctions"...there is NOBODY that can stand agaisnt this.

[peacetalksforall]

24. Which board?

You wrote -
"One of their operatives is actually on this board."

Which board?

[Le Taz Hot]

26. DU

n/t

[BevHarris]

28. The book has shut them up, folks

The only people accusing me of "grandstanding" or "overstating my case" are the ones that haven't downloaded the chapters (and we're only halfway through!).

The book is impeccably documented and frankly, it's been downloaded over 10,000 times so far and not a single person has come back to claim we overstated the case.

It's one thing to chat on a message board. Documenting and writing up the findings in a formal way is quite another. It is well worth your effort to print out up to Chapter 6 (Chapter 7 is one of the most powerful, but the file keeps corrupting and chopping up the text, so maybe wait until tomorrow when we can diagnose the problem)

3-hole punch it, put it in a notebook, and hand it to them.

So far, the only people still saying I've overstated or that they "disagree" are people who haven't read it.

Bev

[Le Taz Hot]

35. You're preachin' to the choir (me), Bev.

I'm one of your biggest admirers and all voters owe you a HUGE debt of gratitude for your work. I'm just relaying the attitude of the California Demoratic Party "leadership." They'll come around, but it's a HUGE machine and it does take time. That's not an excuse, just the reality.

Also, there was more than enough evidence at the end of July (when I spoke to him) to convince anyone, much less some so-called "expert" of massive election fraud, both real and potential. There was absolutely NO BASIS for his response and it was obvious he had only given a cursory look at the work you've done. So much for the "experts."

[DEMActivist]

20. I don't think any of "us" can answer that question for you

We activists don't understand it any better than you do/don't.

Given yesterday's DNC announcement coming out in favor of a voter verified audit trail, I think we can safely assume that many of the "leaders" are beginning to recognize there is a problem. That's a step in the right direction. We now have an official position that comes down on our side (albeit not completely on our side). At least we have an official admission that it is a topic which requires attention.

I'm still looking for the text of the actual DNC resolution, having mailed my source for the announcement to see if they have it. As soon as I get it, I'll post it on DU if someone else hasn't already.

We ARE making headway. As Kate Forrest from the Commonweal Institute said last night in her announcement about the DNC resolution:

This is something we all can cheer about! Now we have to get people all over the country urging their members of Congress to make this a standard for all elections. Think there's any chance of getting the RNC to take a similar stand? And the Green party, Reform party, etc.?

Get on the phone with your local elections officials. Push, push, and then push some more to make everyone recognize this as a serious problem. We are running out of time to make a difference in the upcoming presidential primaries AND the 2004 election.

Take the momentum from this resolution and push it on your local officials. Do NOT forget that elections are run by STATE GOVERNMENT. There's only so much the feds can do on this issue. Make it LOCAL. NOW

[gristy]

21. Well, that is wonderful news, DEMActivist

Given yesterday's DNC announcement coming out in favor of a voter verified audit trail

Just wonderful. Thank YOU for everything you do, have done, and will do in the future.

Your fan,

Gristy

[Eloriel]

23. Near as I can tell, it goes something like this

Election officials, including Secretaries of State (of both parties), are absolutely thrilled to get rid of paper ballots, which they equate with vote fraud. They are predisposed, because of all their negative experience with paper ballots and fraud, to believe the vendors, to trust (without knowing anything about it) the certification processes, and to trust people like R. Doug Lewis of the Election Center and Cathy Cox who is SoS of GA where the machines were used in 2002. They are also eager to replace the hanging chads of Florida 2000 fame, and to get the Federal money for doing so (Help America Vote Act or HAVA).

They are further swayed by such organizations as the Leadership Counference on Civil Rights, the ACLU, Common Cause and the League of Women Voters, all of whom are buying into these machines for some of the same reasons AND the fact that DREs (Direct Recording Electronic devices, or touchscreens) really do provide the disabled community with privacy and dignity in voting for the first time ever. Nevermind that the industry, via ITAA, apparently used the disabled to achieve their own goal, which was (as stated in David Allen's remarkable notes from that conference call with the voting machine industry, R. Doug Lewis and ITAA) merely to get taxpayer money funding voting machines.

They have been lobbied hard, they have all the answers (from their vendors and vendors' lobbyists) that THEY think resolve the issues. Technobabble works very well for them. (Heck, I'm not totally computer illiterate, and still the technobabble often enough works or nearly works on me.) They are either unaware of or completely disbelieving that there could be malicious code, let alone IS malicious code in these machines.

I think that in some cases they perceive "conspiracy theory" connected with our arguments, and that makes them unwilling to listen further.

I don't know if it was a conscious plan (conspiracy) or not, but it's been a remarkable PR coup. The manufacturers lined up some of our most powerful public interest groups on their side.

Eloriel

[BevHarris]

30. About the word "conspiracy"

Don't you think it is a fairly formal talking point? It seems to pop up too quickly and too broadly for it to be anything else.

The word "conspiracy" isn't just being used to tarnish those with valid criticism of the voting process. It's also used to tarnish anyone who questions the company line on 9-11, and anyone who dares mention the obvious connection between corporate profiteers and the seizure of Iraq.

Another word for "racketeering" is "conspiracy" by the way. If there was no such thing as a "conspiracy" there would be no RICO cases.

Bev

[imhotep]

25. They are in on the scam

with repukes. There is no other logical reason.

[stlsaxman]

27. They still believe the lies about VNS being useless and punch-card

ballots being horribly flawed. Punch card ballots are NOT to blame for the
2000 Fla debacle, but the blame that system recieved from the BFEE is
still has stuck and Dems and the press believe it as gospel truth...

A fine tribute to Roves methods.

[peacetalksforall]

31. Please reflect...

THEY are the ones who are there to represent us. THEY are the ones who have all the oversight work going on that we are paying for. THEY are the ones who are supposed to save us from the OTHER ones. THEY are the ones who are supposed to ensure that the system works for US.

So who found out about the the many ways we are being cheated in expressing our most important right?

WHY did they not protect us from them? WHY do they look the other way? WHY can they not take more interest in the integrity of a right? THEY are not with US. THEY are not protecting our most precious asset as citizens.

THEY HAVE DROPPED THE BALL AND THEY DON"T KNOW THAT THERE IS A BALL AND FOR THOSE WHO KNOW THERE IS A BALL, THEY'D RATHER NOT BELIEVE IT. THEY WILL NEVER GET ON THE BANDWAGON FIRST UNTIL IT'S SAFE - THAT IS WHEN A MAGIC NUMBER COMES UP - THE NUMBER THAT TELLS THEM THAT ENOUGH CITIZENS ARE UPSET AND IT IS VOTE-SAFE TO SPEAK OUT. EVEN WHEN ONE WANTS TO DO SOMETHING THEY CAN'T UPSET THE APPLE-CART FOR OTHERS.

Wellstone - First vote in the Senate - against Gulf War 1.
Wellstone - Last vote in the Senate - against GUlf War 2.
What would Wellstone have done about the rotten, rotting, smelly, and full of holes voting machines and their scared-of-their-shadow ELECTION SUPERVISORS and SUPPOSED-TO-BE VOTE CARETAKERS?

Our rights are being destroyed in a binary, sadistic way. We are being pillaged.

Speak out congresspeople. How many have been asked what their position is?

[LWolf]

34. My answer: no one's listening.

At least to the right candidates, apparently. Mainstream media sure as hell isn't.

You don't hear about it in the debates because the debate moderators aren't asking questions about electronic voting. The candidates are responding to the questions asked.

You're not hearing about it in interviews because:

1. You don't listen to Dennis Kucinich.

2. The mainstream media doesn't either.

I don't know about the rest of the candidates, but Dennis has been quite outspoken on the subject. On numerous occasions.

This isn't playing larger in CA because it's not at the forefront nationally. And because, IMHO, the ACLU filed that appeal to postpone the election in favor of having all of those electronic voting machines installed. Because of the problems with those bad, bad, chads.