The burning bush was Christ himself?!?

[Cassandra]

Nutcase caller on C-SPAN started saying something about Moses and then said that the burning bush was Christ himself. He was making some point but with my mouth hanging open it was hard to hear. I think this pushes that Judeo-Christian thing a bit too far.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

1. Metaphor? n/t

[bertha katzenengel]

2. Not unusual nutcase. Just the usual fundy. Here:

John 1, verse 1, says "in the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God." Fundies teach that this means Jesus Christ. Jesus was the word. The burning bush spoke - words - so it was Jesus.

Not only that, but they believe Jesus is God. So of course the voice in the burning bush was Jesus.

[Cassandra]

3. No wonder they've got the Old Testament...

up their collective asses.

[DoYouEverWonder]

6. If they ever read the New one

they would know that Jesus said he was the fulfillment of the Old Testament so the old rules no longer applied.

[Clark2008]

60. Um - that's not "fundie crap"

Catholics (of which I am one) also believe in the Holy Trinity - the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit as one - and I'm as far away from a fundie as Christianly possible.

[bertha katzenengel]

61. Clark2008, you've read an awful lot into my post that is not there.

Nowhere did I say "crap" -- I didn't even imply it. I know what you believe. I used to be a fundy myself; I know it well. Although I'm now an atheist I do not make fun of Christians (in fact, I'm married to a follower of Christ). You have the right to believe what you wish, and I don't judge you or anyone else for it.

[Clark2008]

63. I'm not a fundie.

And you just said, "I used to be a fundie, so I know what you believe."

Now, that said, I was just pointing out that Christians do believe that Jesus and the Father are the same and it's not out of line with moderate Christian belief (moderate as opposed to fundie, only, not in terms of worship).

My point in posting what I did was to say that not all Christians are fundies. I believe in the teachings of Jesus and the Sermon on the Mount and the Beatitudes. That hellfire and brimstone the fundies follow was, in my belief, disposed of by the loving nature of Jesus Christ.

And my ex is Muslim and my fiance is Jewish. I believe I'm well-versed in all religions, at this point. :)

[bertha katzenengel]

64. I didn't say you were a fundy, either! I implied that fundies & Catholics

have some beliefs in common! One of them is the doctrine of the Trinity! AAaaaahhhhhhh! :banghead:

:)

But for clarity's sake, I state here that I know Catholics are not fundamentalists.

And wow... boy, do I know that not all Christians are fundies! Can you see me married to a fundamentalist Christian lesbian? I know a lot of Christians think gay Christian is an oxymoron... can you imagine a gay fundy? That would be one big closet. :scared:

[Clark2008]

65. There probably are gay fundies

only they're either denying they're gay or they're getting their nookie on the side. You've seen the reports of fundie Republicans who turn out to be gay, I'm sure.

:rofl:

But, in any case, it was the general tone (not specifically you) of this thread that caused my outburst. There seems to be somewhat of an anti-Christian group on this board. Anti-Fundie, I can understand, but anti-Christian is sad.

Jesus was a liberal, you know. ;)

[bertha katzenengel]

67. Somewhat?

There is no question that some DUers are quite anti-Christian. Painting all Christians as Bush-like radicals is like painting all Germans as anti-semitic Nazis.*

:hi:

* Yes, I know it's a false analogy. What it lacks in accuracy it makes up for in illustration.

[Clark2008]

68. I was being generous.

:)

[bertha katzenengel]

62. dupe

double post

[charlie]

4. I was once yammering with a coworker

about the Big Bang when a 3rd horned in, locked her eyes with mine and said with take-no-shit defiance, "that was OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST bringing OUR FATHER'S CREATION into existence!"

This Jesus, he's a combustible fellow.

[mattclearing]

15. Good one.

:D

[Norquist Nemesis]

37. So, Jesus Christ is above God?

From her words, she seems very confused about who JC what God's purpose was in putting him on Earth to mingle among us.

The woman is seriously whacked!

[ProdigalJunkMail]

46. many christians believe that

all creation was done through christ...not that christ created god...the word Father's is possessive...

sP

[Norquist Nemesis]

50. Then how do they explain Genesis?

Not to mention the virgin birth?

[ProdigalJunkMail]

51. well, not sure how they conflict given that christians see

god as a three-part entity. They are all facets of the same entity but to us operate indepently...christ is seen as the active hand of god in creation...

sP

[ikri]

43. Hang on

She believed that the Big Bang was caused by Jesus creating the Abrahamic God?

So Jesus is father to the Abrahamic God who in turn impregnates Mary via a proxy angel to become the father of Jesus?

:wtf:

[charlie]

44. I dunno what she believed

She just barked that at me unsolicited, without anything further except to glare at me, as if she was expecting a fight. My friend and I just left for coffee and some giggles.

[MN ChimpH8R]

52. Sounds like Futurama

where Fry went back in time and became his own grandfather. Makes even less sense that that.

[Silverhair]

58. She was paraphrasing 1st John 1:3

"Through Him all things were made; without Him nothing was made that has been made."

Standard Christian theology, common to all major denominations.

[charlie]

59. She was channeling Donald Wildmon

The soundness of her theology is noted. I'll reserve judgment on her sanity.

[mntleo2]

5. Hooo Boy....

Actually the Voice in the bush identified Itself as "I AM", when Moses asked Whom should he say was sending him to Phaoroh in order to beseech his people's release from slavery. I believe in the Hebrew this phrase means simply, "I know I exist..."

As David Stienberg said once, Moses then said, "Uhhh.. thanks for clearing that up..."

Cat In Seattle

[Silverhair]

10. Accidental duplicate - Self Delete

[FreedomAngel82]

18. Exactly

Yes, and I think it also shows us that God doesn't want to be called any particular gender. Then again Christ always called him "Father". :shrug:

[mntleo2]

39. The Reason Jesus Called God "Father"

...as explained to me by a man who spent 20 years as an archeologist in the Holy Lands:

In that time, only priests could utter the name of God (YAWEH) and then only in the temple proper. By calling God "Father" (or "Daddy" is the more literal translation) Jesus was showing a familiarity with God that had not been considered by his people for centuries. In those times, God was far away, God was beyond any mortal's reach...and by calling God "Daddy" Jesus was actually being very controversial. This was one reason Jesus was so hated. He took God out of the hands of a few and put God squarely as walking alongside the commoner. By calling God "Father", Jesus was saying God was not just for the elites.

Cat In Seattle

[Squatch]

7. Christianity teaches that God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are one

and the same. The "trinity".

[zbdent]

21. So, when Jesus, dying on the cross, uttered

"My God, my God, why have you abandoned me?" (or whatever)

He was just talking to himself?

[FreedomAngel82]

23. I think Jesus gave enough hints

to show me that he wasn't God. He didn't even want to be called "rabbi" and why would he call himself "Father"?

[Terran]

25. May as well not bother trying to figure it out.

Christians started killing each other over this very subject just a few centuries after Christ lived.

[dogday]

36. At the time that Jesus said that, he was of the flesh

he was suffering from the abuse he received. Yes he called out to his father who was in heaven, like anyone else who was in pain, he cried out.

I believe Jesus was God's line to the people. He wanted to show us he was real and sent his Son to sacrifice the greatest thing of all, his life. God saw a lot of doubting Thomas' and wanted people to understand.

[Terran]

49. I will not and would not dispute you on that.

It's a matter of belief, not fact. My only point in the earlier post is that this issue has been of such central import to Christianity for most of its history that it has provoked bloodshed, even in the "early" church. Maybe not these days, but in centuries past there were people who would have disagreed most vehemently with you as to Jesus' nature.

[dogday]

55. Understood. Religion in any form causes men to fight

and die and I don't understand and have never understood that I need to kill someone for my beliefs.

I can't stand to watch this religion go down the hole, and that is where it is headed. There will come a time when being a Christian is a bad thing, we are already a step away from it here at DU.....

[Terran]

57. I think it's organized religion that is the problem.

Regarding the killing that has taken place over this particular issue, I read this in a history of the Popes--an interesting work that gave quite a bit of context for what was going on in the times of each man. I think it was around the 3rd or 4th century AD when what had been merely a philosophical debate turned into factionalism, which inevitably affected the choosing of the Church's leader. The specific event I'm thinking of involved one faction hiring armed thugs to go into a church and attack the members of a differing faction, resulting in the death of that faction's leader. So I think once you move from spirituality into the perceived need to become an institution, that's where all the problems begin.

I have great respect for the practice of Christian principles. But there aren't too many sects of Christianity I have much respect for. A few, though. :)

[mntleo2]

72. My Take: Jesus Said this Because...

I think Jesus was mortal...he was a man whose soul was very advanced beyond most of us. They said the same in modern times about the Mahatma Gandhi. "Mahatma" means "great soul". In other words, the man had evolved to a point he did not have to return to this earth, but chose to come because he had something important and timely to share. I was told by an E Indian friend, that many who could see the aura said Gandhi's aural light extended for more than a block in brilliance. This meant his soul was very old and advanced ~ but he still lived as a mortal. Remember, the Hindu Way has been around thousands of years before even our Judaism. All Eastern and Western (except perhaps the New World's) religions came from it's roots. Almost, if not all, teach the most basic commandment is to "...love God with all your heart and your neightbor as yourself..."

Many traditions such as the Lebanese, say part of the "lost years" of Jesus was spent studying under the great yogis of his time in India (and Matthew his apostle established one of the first churches there), as well as with the Essenes. As Jesus was suffering and dying, he must have looked down from his place on the cross and seen more clearly than ever before, the greed, the ignorance, the violence, and the hatred and realized all of this was not creating a place where God is seen or even known very well, like the way he knew God as an advanced soul. This kind of environment sometimes makes it very difficult if not impossible for the rest of us to "see" God, so we think God is not here in this world. Maybe he saw that God is completely overshadowed by the negative things of this world. I am no yogi or enlightened one, I am just an informal student of several religions, and this is my take....

Cat In Seattle

Edited for content

[Vickers]

8. So, if GEORGE Bush bursts in to flame, is *he* the Messiah?

:shrug:

These folks need to read less Leviticus and more Song of Solomon. :spank:

[donco6]

9. That's common fundie interpretation.

Been around for many, many years.

[papau]

22. true - the Word made flesh was perhaps made a burning bush earlier

:-)

[Silverhair]

11. That is standard Christian Theology.

Not fundamentalist at all. It is a point that just doesn't come up often.

At one point in the New Testament, Jesus appropriates the name, "I Am" for Himself, which causes the religious leaders to get angry with him. They correctly understood that he was calling Himself God.

[B3Nut]

14. In traditional Christian theology

this sort of OT appearance is called a Theophany or Christophany, an appearance of the preincarnate Christ, who according to this theological viewpoint is God. Pretty standard first-year-of-seminary stuff. Not crazy or out of the mainstream at all.

Todd in Beerbratistan

[Cassandra]

20. To a Jew, it's pretty weird.

I can see though why some Christians think that converting Jews is no big deal. Many Jews find it disrespectful and personally insulting to have their symbolism hijacked. A Lutheran friend of mine, whom I consider to be a very true Christian, spends a lot of time around Easter talking about the Last Supper as a Passover seder, as indeed it was. I have to remind her that the Passover seder has its own meaning that has nothing to do with Christ.

[FreedomAngel82]

24. And also I think some forget

that Jesus was a Jew himself and raised in a Jewish home. I wonder if he observed passover himself with his family? :shrug:

[donco6]

29. The last supper was a Passover meal.

As I recall. But I doubt many fundies get that.

[FreedomAngel82]

31. Probably not

It helps to know the culture of the time and it puts the whole picture together.

[donco6]

28. You ain't seen nothin'!

Hijacked symbology? How about the lamb that Abraham sacrificed in Isaac's stead? Jesus. Burning bush? Jesus. Ark of the Covenant? You guessed it - Jesus! Holy of Holies? Jesus.

Face it, it's ALL JESUS.

:sarcasm:

[FreedomAngel82]

19. Where is that at?

According to my memory Christ never wanted to even be called "rabbi" so why would he call himself "I am"? Can you show a Bible verse?

[donco6]

33. What fundies will say:

In John 10:30, Jesus is translated as, "I and the Father are one." The Greek is structured to suggest that he was saying, "I AM as the Father is I AM."

Thus, you have the deity assertion.

[Silverhair]

42. Here you go

John 8:58 (New International Version)

58 "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"

In context:


56 Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad."

57 "You are not yet fifty years old," the Jews said to him, "and you have seen Abraham!"

58 "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!" 59At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.

[Alamom]

54. Jesus didn't answer either way in this particular incident.

Matthew Chapter 21
Verses 23-27


edit: #

[DeposeTheBoyKing]

12. I heard that too

I commented on it to my husband. What idiots.

[Squatch]

13. Now, why are they idiots?

:shrug:

[obreaslan]

16. .

:popcorn:

[FreedomAngel82]

17. Uh no he wasn't

It was the voice of God. Some believe that Christ was God in human form but why would Christ call himself "Father"? And with the trinity that is Christ as his seperate being, God and the Holy Spirit which leads back to being one. Christ's spirit came from God and the Holy Spirit and thus make one.

[mccoyn]

26. What have we here?

Some people think the voice coming from a burning bush was God. Others say it was Jesus. Each side is trying to support such things. Or course, neither side can get to a burning bush talking to Moses without a massive dose of faith. So, why do people think they can show, or prove, one viewpoint over another? Religious debates drive my nuts.

[DeepModem Mom]

27. Me too, and I don't understand why they're not in the Religion forum....

We had a hiatus as Katrina raged, and in it's aftermath, but here we go again. IMO, they serve only to divide, and offend, DUers.

[Cassandra]

32. When I posted this...

I didn't even think of it as a religious debate. I thought there was just a crazy guy spouting shit on C-SPAN. I'm a not-very-religious Jew, so the extent to which Christians think they have re-written or re-interpreted the Old Testament (while still spouting the nastier bits of Leviticus) always amazes me.

[Silverhair]

45. Christianity was originally a sect of Judaism.

So it should not be a surprise to you that we claim the Old Testament as Holy also.

Let's face it. You originally thought that you were going to throw a rock at a "crazy fundie", but instead discovered that the particular point is actually mainstream Christianity.

Be careful about throwing rocks at others religions. It isn't a very liberal thing to do anyway. It is a progressive value to show a basic level of respect for the religious beliefs of others.

[Cassandra]

47. "a basic level of respect for the religious beliefs of others"

That would include not hijacking others' sacred texts for another use (or reinterpretation).
Yes, I know that Christianity started as an off-shoot of Judaism. I'm not an idiot, I just find that mainstream Christian belief, which I had never heard before, insulting.

[Silverhair]

56. Melchizedek was "hijacked" too, along with Abraham & Issac.

Hebrews 7:1-3 (New International Version)

Hebrews 7

"1 This Melchizedek was king of Salem and priest of God Most High. He met Abraham returning from the defeat of the kings and blessed him, 2and Abraham gave him a tenth of everything. First, his name means "king of righteousness"; then also, "king of Salem" means "king of peace." 3Without father or mother, without genealogy, without beginning of days or end of life, like the Son of God he remains a priest forever."

The use of the Jewish Scriptures as part of the foundation of Christianity began with the birth of Christianity, so naturally we lay claim to and use all the symbols of Judaism that also show up in the Old Testament.

We ARE a branch of Judaism. We are the branch of Judaism that Gentiles found acceptable, so we became the much larger branch.

[theboss]

35. Christians believe that God and Jesus are of one flesh and one spirit

Actually, I've always been taught that the burning bush's voice was that of the Holy Spirit. But, it really doesn't matter which form speaks as it is all the same.

[FreedomAngel82]

30. For those interested

this is what the Bible says about the burning bush story. It's from Exodus chapter three. Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian, and he led the flock to the far side of the desert and came to Horeb, the mountain of God. 2 There the angel of the LORD appeared to him in flames of fire from within a bush. Moses saw that though the bush was on fire it did not burn up. 3 So Moses thought, "I will go over and see this strange sight—why the bush does not burn up."

4 When the LORD saw that he had gone over to look, God called to him from within the bush, "Moses! Moses!"
And Moses said, "Here I am."

5 "Do not come any closer," God said. "Take off your sandals, for the place where you are standing is holy ground." 6 Then he said, "I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob." At this, Moses hid his face, because he was afraid to look at God.

7 The LORD said, "I have indeed seen the misery of my people in Egypt. I have heard them crying out because of their slave drivers, and I am concerned about their suffering. 8 So I have come down to rescue them from the hand of the Egyptians and to bring them up out of that land into a good and spacious land, a land flowing with milk and honey—the home of the Canaanites, Hittites, Amorites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites. 9 And now the cry of the Israelites has reached me, and I have seen the way the Egyptians are oppressing them. 10 So now, go. I am sending you to Pharaoh to bring my people the Israelites out of Egypt."

11 But Moses said to God, "Who am I, that I should go to Pharaoh and bring the Israelites out of Egypt?"
12 And God said, "I will be with you. And this will be the sign to you that it is I who have sent you: When you have brought the people out of Egypt, you will worship God on this mountain."

13 Moses said to God, "Suppose I go to the Israelites and say to them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you,' and they ask me, 'What is his name?' Then what shall I tell them?"

14 God said to Moses, "I am who I am . This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.' "

15 God also said to Moses, "Say to the Israelites, 'The LORD, the God of your fathers—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob—has sent me to you.' This is my name forever, the name by which I am to be remembered from generation to generation.

[Silverhair]

40. Note about the use of LORD in the English Bible.

Notice that LORD appears in all uppercase letters, but the size of the font is smaller, except for the initial L. That is used to signify that in the original Hebrew, the letters YHWH, appear. They are commonly called "Yahweh" and is the personal name of God.

Moses was serious about his question of, "Which God is sending me?" He wasn't a monotheist yet, and still believed in a whole bunch of gods.

Jews would not pronounce the name so the original pronunciation has been lost. When reading the name in Hebrew they would insert the vowels for "Adonai" which transliterated in German to "Jahovah", in English, "Jehovah".

The early English translator, Tyndale, worked closely with Martin Luther, so our English Bible has a decided German flavor.

[charlie]

41. Overview of Jesus' I AM declarations

http://www.bibletexts.com/terms/i-am.htm

As per usual, much of the contentiousness is in the translations.

[theboss]

34. John 1 1:5

One of my favorite verses:

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (2) The same was in the beginning with God. (3) All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. (4) In him was life; and the life was the light of men. (5) And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not."

[Arugula Latte]

38. Once again, I thank some non-existent god I'm not religious!

What a bunch of hooey and mumbo jumbo and fairytales people buy into.

[Cassandra]

48. I don't spend much if any time being religious...

until I think someone is trying to convert me or prove to me that Jews aren't really Jews, or are going to hell or some such crap. It's very tiring.

[muriel_volestrangler]

53. Divine Org Chart

courtesy of Objective Ministries:

http://www.objectiveministries.org.nyud.net:8090/statementoffaith/divineorgchart.png

[CityZen-X]

66. I Have Burning Bu$h For Some Time!

[geniph]

69. I wish Christ WOULD set Bush afire!

[tocqueville]

70. does flaming Bush here counts ?

[Drewskie]

71. burning bush was actually

Baal who was the ancient canaanite deity who appeared as fire on the mountain. There was also El the sky god and Tiamat the watery serpent and destroyer of the world. Tiamat would come to be associated with the devil. All of these different elements would merge to form our idea of the jedean christian god.

But you don't have to take my word for it... read something by William Foxwell Albright. Or, someone more modern like Jack Miles, who is my personal favorite.