Did Bush* claim responsibility for negligent homicide?

[bloom]

Did he acknowledge the deaths that occurred from FEMA keeping water out and people locked in?

Just wondered - I didn't hear him.

[CottonBear]

1. He said he's responsible "only as far as the Federal Gov't was involved,"

which it wasn't ,therefore, he's really NOT responsible if you read between the lines.
:grr:

[bloom]

2. For ACTIVELY keeping help out...

Which actually seems more like "Active" Homicide - than "Negligent" Homicide...

"Let me give you just three quick examples. We had Wal-Mart deliver three trucks of water, trailer trucks of water. FEMA turned them back. They said we didn't need them. This was a week ago. FEMA--we had 1,000 gallons of diesel fuel on a Coast Guard vessel docked in my parish. The Coast Guard said, "Come get the fuel right away." When we got there with our trucks, they got a word. "FEMA says don't give you the fuel." Yesterday--yesterday--FEMA comes in and cuts all of our emergency communication lines. They cut them without notice. Our sheriff, Harry Lee, goes back in, he reconnects the line. He posts armed guards on our line and says, "No one is getting near these lines." Sheriff Harry Lee said that if America--American government would have responded like Wal-Mart has responded, we wouldn't be in this crisis."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9179790/


I'll be waiting to hear that guilty plea.

[mcscajun]

3. He weaseled around, as he always does...

"To the extent the federal government didn't fully do it's job right..."

Weasel Words.

"...serious problems in our response capability at all levels of government."

More Weasel Words.

[rocktivity]

4. He's responsible for not finishing work on the levees to in 2003,

not coming up with a comprehensive evacuation/relocation/recovery plan at the time, and not helping to get the non-mobile residents out of storm's path when they had 48 hours' notice. So, yeah, criminally negligent homicide fits.

:headbang:
rocknation

[chicagiana]

5. On the evacuation plan ...

I think you're barking up the wrong tree on the evacuation plan. This is primarily the responsibility of the locals.

At the point where the locals declared a state of emergency and asked for help, they are guilty of not helping. And whoever was preventing the Coast Guard from helping on the levee sandbagging project is VERY, VERY, VERY guilty.


The locals definitely didn't have all it's ducks in a row. But you have to compare this to the feds that seemingly had plenty of ducks, but intentionally and maliciously with-held them.

The difference is the locals trying and making mistakes, vs the feds who were deep into "operation ignore". If they had showed up early and provided inadequete support, I think they would be off the hook. Everybody makes mistakes.

[rocktivity]

6. It was Bush's decision that New Orleans should have inadequate levees.

His wanting the money for Iraq didn't alter the fact that it was only a matter of time before a Category 4 hurricane hit their Category 3 levees. And anyone with two brain cells to rub together wouldn't expect a mayor and governor to have the resources to evacuate, relocate, and provide services for half a million people (including those who were able to leave New Orleans on their own--what happens when THEIR resources start running out?).

When Bush pulled the levee funding two years ago, he should had FEMA sit down with the locals so they could piece together a plan that put EVERYONE'S ducks in a row. There was no way the evacuation could be successful if it was not a joint undertaking, and after all, the alternative WAS a lot of people dying!

At least the governor and mayor TRIED to do what they were supposed to do--the president was more interested in playing "Enrich Halliburton" and "Castrate The Democrats"! That's why criminally negligent homicide works for me.

:headbang:
rocknation

[chicagiana]

7. True that Bush pulled funding ...

It's very true that Bush pulled the funding for the levees. But remember that there is a debate to be had about whether the money that Bush pulled for scheduled updates would have been enough. That is a debate for the civil engineers. But I've heard one Corps of Engineer chief already say he didn't think it would be enough.

I would NOT expect a mayor to have sufficient resources to evacuate his city. It seems to me that Nagin's plan was to keep the people safe and work like hell to make sure the levves didn't break (the Coast Guard pulled out of that operation at some point due to reasons still ungiven).

At the Governor's level, I would expect them to coordinate a disaster relief plan for something by their own admission was a distinct possibility. Nagin had plenty of yellow busses, but where would you send them too? You can't evacuate people to the middle of nowhere while a hurricane approaches. They clearly had some underutilized resources.

The locals clearly didn't do everything they could have. But the feds did NOTHING but sit on their hands for days. They should have had resources marshalled nearby as the storm approaches. Apparently this was S.O.P during Clinton's watch. SOME relief is better than none.

Politically, it makes you look concerned. Practically it means you have boots on the ground and a supply chain going that can be expanded rapidly as resources and manpower are brought to bear. 5 days to intevention is 100% UNACCEPTABLE!!!!

I don't think the failure's of the locals in any way indemnifies FEMA for their callous disregard for public safety. And I agree that the locals were TRYING while the feds had their thumbs up their butt's.

At the end of the day it's a good thing to assess responsibility where it is due. And certainly an after action report in Haley Barbour's Mississipi is also warranted (Faux want do this though). Governor's from the other 48 states are watching. And there are lessons that NEED to be learned here if your Metro should ever be struck by a disaster of this magnitude.

[Vinca]

10. At the end of the day, someone should end up in jail.

To have invalids die in nursing homes and hospitals because of blatant incompetence cannot be airbrushed clean. Personally, I think every level of government shares some blame, but FEMA, in particular, needs to be singled out. They didn't have a clue what was going on, rejected assistance and, IMHO, were directly responsible for lives lost.

[chicagiana]

11. By law those hospitals ...

By law those hospitals were supposed to have evacuation plans. The primary responsibility for not evacuating those people goes to the owners of those establishments.

But you also have to remember that there was a MANDATORY evacuation order. What should the nursing home employees do in that situation? They are NOT under legal obligation to stay. They can simply QUIT and see to their own business.

This might seem like a copout, but it's a double edged sword. It's an explanation why in profound disasters like this you ABSOLUETLY 100% NEED EXTERNAL RESOURCES. You need people to COME IN, because they can, their families are safe and secure in other locations.

You need a coordinating agency to see to all this stuff because it is 100% IMPOSSIBLE for the locals to see to their personal AND their civic responsibilities at once. It's a job that GOVERNMENT has to do because government is the ONLY one who can do it.

WHICH government should do it. Well, in a geographically large state, the state itself may be able to handle it. There were probably shelters in northern Louisiana that could have handled MANY, MANY evacuees. But could the state REALLY hold all of them???

A disaster that hits Texas or California, most people could be evacuated internally. But MOST states would probably need external resources. And that means the FEDS have to coordinate. There is no private sector equivalent. In fact such things would be ILLEGAL as it would involve creating quasi-governmental organizations between states.

Last I checked it was FEMA's jurisdiction. So to the extent that the locals failed to have a comprehensive plan, FEMA failed to coordinate it and provide guidance. After 9/11 that is simply 100% UNACCEPTABLE!!!!!

Do you see now. Blaming the locals is the same thing as blaming the feds when it comes to a disaster of this scale.

[Vinca]

14. If a hospital or nursing home is surrounded by water, there is no

way they can evacuate patients on their own. They got through the hurricane . . . it was the flooding that caused the problem. Doctors and hospital personnel were all over the media begging for help. The most helpless were the least helped and more people than those nursing home owners should be charged. I'd start with Brownie.

[chicagiana]

17. Very true ...

The feds should have been Johnny on the Spot to pick up the slack for irresponsible companies who abandon their patients.

[DoYouEverWonder]

9. The locals evacuated 80% of the city

without any Federal help. Imagine if HS/FEMA dedicated the resources that only they have access too, they might have at least gotten more of the hospitals and nursing homes too.

[bloom]

16. It wasn't just "operation ignore" - it was "operation keep help out"...eom

[GreenPartyVoter]

8. No but the nursing home in LA is getting hit with 37 counts

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[Connie_Corleone]

12. To the extent that the federal government was involved...

so I would say yes. The federal government let people starve and dehydrate to death. I say Bush is taking responsibility for negligent homicide.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

[moondust]

13. Negligent homicide: The elephant taking a bath in the living room.

:popcorn:

[bloom]

15. And/Or a stampede of elephants crushing everyone else.... eom