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Just how much sovereign immunity does the Bush administration have anyway?

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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-05 05:15 PM
Original message
Just how much sovereign immunity does the Bush administration have anyway?
http://www.lectlaw.com/def2/s103.htm

Someone brought up that Bush and his administration were guilty of negligent homicide because of their bad handling of the Hurricane Katrina disaster and the terrible emergency response. Then someone said they couldn't charge him or anyone in his administration because they have sovereign immunity.

So does this mean if he and Laura have a domestic argument that turns violent and he kills Laura that he is immune from prosecution? I mean exactly to what extent is the POTUS and his administration allowed to commit crimes under this legal convention?
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NYC Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-05 05:17 PM
Response to Original message
1. No, the Repukes got it so that
Edited on Tue Sep-13-05 05:18 PM by NYC Liberal
you CAN sue a sitting president -- remember Clinton?

Karma's a bitch, ain't it?
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sweetheart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-05 05:19 PM
Response to Original message
2. What law?
There is no law to govern criminals except their outlaw choices.

Bush lives in a wild west where the only law is the gun of his enemy.

Until such a gun is brought to bear, there is sovereign immunity.

Basically, until you catch a bandit, he robs people with impunity
and calls it sovereign immunity.

She loves you, ya ya ya.

She loves you , ya ya ya.

(refrain) :-)
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leveymg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-05 05:22 PM
Response to Original message
3. The immunity of the President is qualified.
Edited on Tue Sep-13-05 05:30 PM by leveymg
Only Judges and Prosecutors enjoy absolute immunity for their official actions.

The President can be indicted, tried, convicted and imprisoned for negligent homicide just like anyone else. If Congress chooses not to impeach him, he can serve out the rest of his term from a jail cell. He may not pardon himself.

There is no immunity from prosecution for private criminal acts committed by any official.

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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-05 08:02 PM
Response to Reply #3
9. no immunity from criminal prosecution, but at least as of when
Edited on Tue Sep-13-05 08:05 PM by Land Shark
i took the bar (i'm no federal tort claims act lawyer) ten or so years ago, there is no liability under the FTCA for the government's INTENTIONAL acts, i.e. the govt has not waived it's sovereign immunity as to intentional acts, only classes of negligent acts. If still true, then what the sovereign consciously chooses to do, it is still immune for. Throwbacks to "the King can do no wrong". there are obvious policy reasons why this shouldn't be true and I believe the law has changed in the meantime, probably enough to change the overall result. Anyone know for sure?

On edit I am speaking above of civil liability, and not criminal.
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NYC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-05 05:23 PM
Response to Original message
4. I would think that immunity applies only to his professional duties.
In other words, wife beating would not be covered.

However, there has to be some standard of performance. If a person fulfills the responsibilities of office in good faith, he should have immunity. When a person exhibits a blatant disregard or deliberate indifference, I don't think it should be covered.

Maybe someone will come along who actually knows what the rules are.
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leveymg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-05 05:37 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. You are substantially correct.
Edited on Tue Sep-13-05 05:38 PM by leveymg
Except, the actual standard applied to negligent homicide or reckless endangerment is reasonableness, not good faith. Official actions that are criminal or in reckless disregard of dangers are not covered by qualified immunity.

There is a different standard for military officers under the uniform code of military justice. The analogous charge there is dereliction of duty. The President is a civilian, so he would be tried under state or federal criminal codes.



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NYC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-05 05:47 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. Make this clear for me.
Did Bush react as any reasonable person would react? I say NO. So, is he not immune from prosecution in this case? I would say he is NOT immune because he did not act or react in a reasonable manner. Would a reasonable person remain on vacation?

In summary, can he be prosecuted?
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Davis_X_Machina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-05 05:47 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. Nothing prevents a president from pardoning himself...
...unless the black letter of the law is in practice read differently:

The President ... shall have power to grant reprieves and pardons for offenses against the United States, except in cases of impeachment.

So a President could pardon himself, removing the penalties that would flow from an ordinary Federal conviction, but could not use the pardon power to 'un-impeach' himself, or to prevent his removal from office subsequent to conviction by the Senate upon impeachment by the House.
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1democracy Donating Member (142 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-05 08:09 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. Can he pardon himself without admitting guilt?
Wouldn't he have to be charged and convicted (hundreds of families or state Attys General)before he could pardon himself? What I'm asking is if the President can just keep pardoning himself continually so he never has to face any charges or would the charges have to be found true for the pardon to be invoked?
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leveymg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-14-05 06:15 AM
Response to Reply #7
13. Not so clear. Issue of self-pardon hasn't been presented to the courts.
Edited on Wed Sep-14-05 06:26 AM by leveymg
I'm going to back off from a firm assertion on the question of presidential self-pardons. There is no actual precedent, and opinion goes both ways.

Anyway, the inevitable uproar would probably force the initiation of impeachment, at which point any self-pardon would be void.

Here are the charges, and the potential penalty under LA State Law
Louisiana State Law, defining negligent homicide:


§32. Negligent homicide

A. Negligent homicide is the killing of a human being by criminal negligence.

B. The violation of a statute or ordinance shall be considered only as presumptive evidence of such negligence.

C. Whoever commits the crime of negligent homicide shall be imprisoned with or without hard labor for not more than five years, fined not more than five thousand dollars, or both. However, if the victim was killed as a result of receiving a battery and was under the age of ten years, the offender shall be imprisoned at hard labor, without benefit of probation or suspension of sentence, for not less than two nor more than five years.


XXXXX

Regarding legal opinion on the validity of any potential presidential self-pardon,see, Brian Kalt, Note, "Pardon Me?: The Constitutional Case Against Presidential Self-Pardons," 106 Yale Law Journal 779 (1996)


However, other legal experts differ on the question
Cf., see,02/08/99- Updated 04:21 PM ET www.usatoday.com/news/index/clinton/qa16.htm

'Pardon me? No, pardon me'

Mary Cheh, professor of constitutional law and criminal procedure at George Washington University, in Washington, D.C., says the law is clear at least on impeachment: No pardons for anybody, by anybody.

So if somehow Republicans pull a rabbit out of the hat and win a conviction in the impeachment trial, Clinton would be toast.

But criminal charges appear a different matter. There is nothing in the law that prohibits a president from pardoning himself, even before charges are filed.

"The law doesn't say anything about it, so it's an open question," says Cheh. The courts would be sure to review any such pardon, but "it's a coin-toss" whether they would overturn it, she says. The courts would have to decide whether basic constitutional assumptions -- that no person is above the law, or that one cannot be the judge of one's own actions -- would be sufficient to overturn a presidential self-pardon.

No president has ever tried to pardon himself. President Gerald Ford pardoned Richard Nixon for Watergate-related crimes a month after Nixon resigned in August 1974.

The New York Times reported Sunday that Starr is considering indicting Clinton on criminal perjury and obstruction charges before he leaves office. That could force Clinton, who has vowed to stay in office "until the last hour of the last day of my term," to pardon himself.

Clinton's attorney, Charles Ruff, has said Clinton would not pardon himself, nor accept a pardon from a successor." SNIP

XXXX

John Dean can be taken as something of an expert on the subject. He has written:www.cnn.com/2000/LAW/12/columns/fl.dean.clinton.12.08/


It is difficult to find a body of constitutional jurisprudence smaller than that on presidential pardons, which have been the subject of only a handful of rulings by the U.S. Supreme Court. It appears, however, that a presidential pardon cannot be forced on a person.

In 1915, the Supreme Court ruled in Burdick v. United States that there was a "confession of guilt implied in the acceptance of a pardon," so the recipient should have a right to refuse it. However, 12 years later, in Biddle v. Perovich, the court held that a presidential commutation of a sentence was effective notwithstanding the refusal of the recipient, stating that " pardon in our days is not a private act of grace from an individual happening to possess power. It is a part of the constitutional scheme. When granted it is the determination of the ultimate authority that the public welfare will be better served by inflicting less than what the judgment fixed."

Notwithstanding the court's language referring to a "pardon," Biddle must be distinguished from Burdick because in commuting a sentence, unlike with a pardon, guilt has been established -- so a presidential commutation does not cause an admission of guilt. Biddle addresses the reduction of a sentence (which cannot be refused), while Burdick prevents an imposition of guilt by an act of clemency. Thus, under Burdick, a Bush pardon would appear to have no effect if not accepted by Clinton.

But would Clinton go to court to have a Bush pardon invalidated? His statement during the presidential campaign of his vice president that he did not want a pardon, however, does not mean that he might not welcome the relief.

Faced with an indictment, and the prospect of a criminal trial that would revive all of the sordidness of his sexual liaison with Monica Lewinsky -- a trial that will require graphically detailed testimony about who touched whom sexually -- the former president might reconsider his decision to "stand before any bar of justice."

A Bush pardon would give Clinton the chance to avoid giving not only his detractors, but those of his wife -- the junior U.S. senator from New York -- a new stockpile of political ammunition that could fatally wound them both. It would also allow Clinton to save his daughter, Chelsea, from further humiliation from her father's infidelity, to prevent another media circus where the details of oral sex become daily news, and to end the ongoing accrual of legal expenses that would far exceed the joint income of his presidential pension and wife's salary.

Would Clinton really, upon reflection, sacrifice all this, only to gain the benefit of undergoing a problematic trial in the hope of proving his innocence? Such a pardon might be difficult to turn down.

Clinton's self-pardon
President Clinton is no fool. He understands that if Al Gore becomes president, Gore, for political reasons, will not be able to pardon him. He will not want George W. Bush in a position to profit politically from a pardon, if Bush is the candidate who becomes president. And he surely knows an indictment and trial have a greater downside potential than any upside. For these reasons, I would be surprised if he has not given serious thought to a self-pardon.

To pardon himself, Clinton would need only to take out a blank sheet of White House stationery, write out his pardon (he's signed 185 of them -- so far the fewest of any of the modern president but enough to know what they say), and request that a couple of trusted White House aides witness his execution and delivery of his pardon deed. Is it really so simple? Yes; the courts have said there is no required form or procedure, nor need there be compliance with Justice Department clemency regulations.

If Clinton were to take this action before noon, January 20, 2001, it would dramatically alter the dynamics of the terrible predicament awaiting him after leaving office. Obviously, he will be politically attacked for pardoning himself. But can those attacks begin to equal the problems of an indictment and trial? Not likely. Nor is there anything anyone would be able to do about his presidential action.

If the independent counsel were to take him to court over his self-pardon, he would be represented by the Department of Justice, or by a private attorney hired by the department, if the department believed it had a conflict of interest. (With Bush in the White House, the department would indeed suffer from such a conflict.) So this would not cost him more in legal fees.

Good authority for a Clinton self-pardon
While no president has ever pardoned himself, the law supports the president's authority to do so. Scholarly inquiry into the subject was provoked first by fear that Richard Nixon would pardon himself to escape Watergate; later by thought that George H. W. Bush would do so because of the Iran-Contra grand jury; and most recently by concern about Bill Clinton's problem of a possible post-presidency indictment and trial. And while a few scholars have concluded that the president cannot pardon himself, many more believe that he can.

As one member of Congress said during the Clinton impeachment proceedings, "the prevailing opinion is the president can pardon himself." Thus, should Bill Clinton pardon himself, and should Independent Counsel Ray decide to go to court to test his presidential power to do so, not only would that court case delay the prospect of resolving any criminal action against the former president quickly, it would also present a case of first impression, with the authority overwhelmingly on the side of the former president.

The president's pardon power is set forth in the U.S. Constitution. Article II, section 2 grants the president "Power to grant Reprieves and Pardons for Offenses against the United States, except in Cases of Impeachment." The text of the Constitution, its history, and the placement of the pardon power within the structure of the Constitution, all show that there are no limits on this power, other than the exception that prevents the president from pardoning "impeachments."

Accordingly, the Supreme Court has described this presidential power as "plenary." As one recent commentator summed it up, short of a constitutional amendment, there is absolutely nothing "to prevent any president from pardoning himself."

Will Bill Clinton do so? We won't know until he is indicted, for he would have to plead it as his defense. I would assume that we will have an answer to this question by March, or by end of April at the latest -- if Independent Counsel Ray proceeds as he has indicated. Although I cannot predict the answer, this much I can promise: it will be interesting.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

John Dean is a former counsel to the president of the United States. John Dean is also a FindLaw columnist.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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damntexdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-05 05:51 PM
Response to Original message
8. Let the mishandling of Katrina start a pandemic in the U.S., and ...
Dubya will have no immunity, sovereign or medical.
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Whoa_Nelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-05 08:08 PM
Response to Original message
10. BushCo actually does have a lot of immunity
This site explains sovereign immunity very well:
(and what I just learned by finding this info really sucks!)

http://www.lectlaw.com/def2/s103.htm

SOVEREIGN IMMUNITY - A doctrine precluding the institution of a suit against the sovereign without its consent. Though commonly believed to be rooted in English law, it is actually rooted in the inherent nature of power and the ability of those who hold power to shield themselves.

<snip>
...American rulers had to come up with another rationale to protect their power. One they came up with is that the "sovereign is exempt from suit practical ground that there can be no legal right against the authority that makes the law on which the right depends." 205 U.S. 349, 353.

"tatutes waiving the sovereign immunity of the United States must be`construed strictly in favor of the sovereign." McMahon v. United States, 342 U.S. 25, 27 (1951).

11 U.S.C. S 106, "Waiver of Sovereign Immunity," provides:

(a) A governmental unit is deemed to have waived sovereign immunity with respect to any claim against such governmental unit that is property of the estate and that arose out of the same transaction or occurrence out of which such governmental unit's claim arose.

The interest served by federal sovereign immunity (the United States' freedom from paying damages without Congressional consent)

Federal sovereign immunity is readily distinguishable from the states' immunity under the Eleventh Amendment and foreign governments' immunity under the Foreign Sovereign Immunities Act. The latter two doctrines allow one sovereign entity the right to avoid, altogether, being subjected to litigation in another sovereign's courts. Pullman Constr., 23 F.3d at 1169. Similar sovereignty concerns are not implicated by the maintenance of suit against the United States in federal court. Federal sovereign immunity has had such broad exceptions carved out of it that, as Pullman Construction concluded, "Congress, on behalf of the United States, has surrendered any comparable right not to be a litigant in its own courts." Id. In the present day, federal sovereign immunity serves merely to channel litigation into the appropriate avenue for redress, ensuring that "No Money shall be drawn from the Treasury, but in Consequence of Appropriations made by Law." Pullman Constr. at 1168 (quoting Art. I, section 9, cl. 7).

Federal sovereign immunity is a defense to liability rather than a right to be free from trial.

The Supreme Court has ruled that in a case involving the government's sovereign immunity the statute in question must be strictly construed in favor of the sovereign and may not be enlarged beyond the waiver its language expressly requires. See United States v. Nordic Village, Inc., 503 U.S. 30, 33-35 (1992).


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leveymg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-14-05 05:36 AM
Response to Reply #10
12. That addresses immunity to civil suit, not criminal prosecution. n/t
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