OK, will anyone be pissed at Nader after Roberts is confirmed as Chief...

[11 Bravo]

and some other stealth Nazi takes O'Connor's seat? After Roe is overturned? After every existing environmental protection is rolled back? After affirmative action is a fond memory? After gender equity becomes the punchline to a joke? If you still believe "there is no difference between the two parties", please report to your nearest veterinarian to be spayed or neutered, because you are too fucking stupid to reproduce! The narcissism of Ralph Nader has condemned this nation to generations of SCOTUS rulings which are antithetical to the progressive movement. I hope the Green Party voters are comfortable with their ideological purity, because the rest of us will have to live with the results of their gesture. Fuck! I'm glad I only have sons. We only have to worry about the draft.

[justinsb]

1. Nope

Nader has nothing to do with it.

[Frances]

5. Right

Sarcasm

Evidently you are a Nader supporter. Would you mind telling me the differnce between a Nader supporter and a Bush supporter? The end result is the same as far as I can tell.

[justinsb]

23. I think anyone who wants to run has a right to do so

I'm sorry you don't like democracy, but your assumption that the people who voted for Nader would have otherwise voted for Gore is wrong, many of them would likely have not voted at all or voted for another 3rd party.

[tedoll78]

41. What a great strawman!

That whole bullshit line about "not liking democracy?" Very rich. That doesn't belong on Freerepublic at all.. /s

And your claim about how Nader voters would've behaved? Again.. wrong.

http://www.thenation.com/docprint.mhtml?i=20001127&s=cooper1

"A national USA Today/CNN/Gallup Tracking poll a few days before the election found that only 43 percent of likely Nader voters would vote for Gore as their second choice. Twenty-one percent said they would vote for Bush second. And an equal number said they would vote for Nader or not at all."

Lemme guess.. next, you're gonna tell us that we hate Nader for his freedoms, right? :P

[justinsb]

45. Well you obviously don't believe that people have a right to vote

as they see fit. I resigned as a ward captain for my local DCC when Clinton was re-nominated in 96, I wouldn't have voted for Gore regardless I won't vote for a DLCer, any more than I'll vote for a Republican.

[tedoll78]

53. Am I supposed to take you seriously at this point?

This is the second time where you put words in someone's mouth. Where do I say, "people don't have the right to vote as they see fit?"

Go on and cite it.

Disagree with me, fine. But don't put words in my mouth. I think people have the right to vote as they want. But I also have the right to think that they've voted to fuck-over the nation.

[proud2BlibKansan]

81. And you are here because . . . . ?

Please enlighten us.

[Sterling]

159. It's a site for progressives.

I have a feeling I will not be voting for the Dem nom in o8. I still like some Dems like McKinney but I could care less about the party as an entity these days. I think Dems are equally responsible for all of our problems.

If one Dem showed the appropriate amount of contempt for the Bush agenda they would earn my support. At this point the party is a cruel joke on America and progressives who cannot see that much are part of the problem. It is those people who have truly made me lose hope for America. Bush should never have happened.

The Dems let him happen by allowing themselves to be corrupted by greed and power. The have ceased to fulfill their role as the party that fights for the underdog.

[meganmonkey]

48. Blaming Nader is the strawman

regardless of how I feel about him, regardless of whether or not Nader even ran, Gore won Florida. That is a fact.

Why don't we focus on the lying cheating bastards that keep stealing elections instead of finding easier scapegoats to blame? Who are you going to blame in 2008 when another election passes with 'irregularities' in some key state?

[tedoll78]

56. Read my post below.

In it, I stake my belief that Nader takes a share of the blame, and that there's plenty of blame to go around.

[11 Bravo]

79. Yes, anyone has a right to run, and you have a right to vote for them.

Now, please face up to the consequences of your decision.

[Sterling]

160. Yes I agree you should have voted for Nader, we all should have

Now we must accept the mediocrity of our supposed party. Life sucks.

[11 Bravo]

10. I've got to disagree.

If Nader stays out of a race he knows he can't possibly win, Al Gore is our President.

[justinsb]

24. I think anyone who wants to run has a right to do so

I'm sorry you don't like democracy, but your assumption that the people who voted for Nader would have otherwise voted for Gore is wrong, many of them would likely have not voted at all or voted for another 3rd party.

[Baconfoot]

124. He SHOULD have the right to run. He SHOULDN'T have CHOSEN to run.

Please don't accuse people of saying that he doesn't have the right to run. Who says this? They are not saying this just by saying that he shouldn't have run. There is an important difference between a right to perform an action X and X's moral permissibility/requiredness.

Nader knew that as a result of his actions, the world and the nation would be worse off both in the long and in the short term.

There are people fighting in state legislatures, town halls, and in D.C. for the ideals Nader purports to currently believe in and in which he once surely sincerely believed. These people are called democrats.

"I'm sorry you don't like democracy" you say?

No. I believe in democracy. One of the things that means is that I firmly believe in YOUR right to advocate actions (like continuing to support Nader) which I believe will diminish my personal happiness.

I would fight for your right to diminish my personal happiness via democratic means onto the extreme pain or even the death.

SO please don't imply that I don't believe in what we currently refer to as democracy.

I believe in it.

The so-called DNC democrats believe in it.

All these things can be and are true and it's STILL the case that Nader should have withdrawn from the 2000 race months before the general election.

[ikojo]

126. Nader wasn't a factor in 2004 nor was he a factor in the

Dems losing the house and Senate again in 1996, 2000, 2004 and probably not regaining in it 2006. The primary factor in the Dems losing the house and senate is their ineptitude at being an OPPOSITION party, I don't think Nader was on the ballot in all 50 states, I know he was not on the ballot in Missouri and Missouri still went for Bush.

After 9/11/01 they drank from the kool aid and did not question a thing Bush did lest they be accused of not being patriotic (funny how patriotism is now defined as bootstrap marching along with the president. I certainly am glad it wasn't defined that way in the 1700s and that George Washington didn't agree with his King George).

The Democrats overwhelmingly voted to support the PATRIOT Act.
Democrats voted along with Republicans to support CAFTA
Democrats voted along with Republicans to support an overhaul of the bankruptcy rules, these same rules will affect many N.O residents.
Democrats, including John Kerry, voted overwhelmingly to support an unprovoked war on a sovereign country that had no connection to the events of 9/11/01.

Oh no but it's easier to accuse an elderly guy who did what every native born American over the age of 35 has a right to do..run for president and whore for votes, of all the collasal failures of this administration and his Democratic enablers.

Get off of the Nader blame game and hold the CURRENT Democratic congress-critters and Senators ACCOUNTABLE for their votes and their actions!

[Stand and Fight]

153. I hate to say this...

But I agree with EVERYTHING you said... I don't understand why some people have a problem wtih Ralph Nader. He's done a lot of good in this country, and yes he's also screwed up. However, the real screw-ups are the enablers of Bush and the Democrats who don't behave like an Opposition Party!

[Zhade]

133. Except, of course, that Gore won and had his victory taken away.

But don't let facts get in the way of yet another pointless Nader rant.

[GreenPartyVoter]

27. Agreed. It comes down to Diebold, Choicepoint, Katherine Harris, and the

ironically enough.. the SCOTUS.

We had a bloodless coup in this country. TWICE. And still some people want to take it all out on poor old Ralph.

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[Tigress DEM]

96. In 2000 he was ok. In 2004 he took RNC money AFTER he knew

what effect he had on the Democratic results and what kind of people we were dealing with.

I have no problem with his initial idealism or of Green party in general. In fact, in the MN primary I picked a Green for Mayor simply because she is the best choice in my opinion. It was basically a vote of no confidence in the other DEMS who are all over the board instead of on the real issues.

However ANYONE who takes money from the Republican National Committee and assists in screwing up a Presidential election KNOWINGLY is a BAD, BAD person. Period.

Anyone HERE taking money from RNC? Only the freepers. Same rules apply. If Nader was man enough to think he could be pRes, he should have told the RNC to shove their money right up their .... pieholes. THEN I would have believed in the sincerity of his actions.

Nader is a traitor for his behavior in 2004.

[MADem]

155. I agree. By accepting that funding, he became a GOP tool

A bit o' history:

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2004/07/09/MNGQQ7J31K1.DTL

Nearly one in 10 of Nader's major donors -- those writing checks of $1, 000 or more -- have given in recent months to the Bush-Cheney campaign, the latest documents show. GOP fund-raisers also have "bundled" contributions -- gathering hefty donations for maximum effect to help Nader, who has criticized the practice in the past.

Camejo had a problem with the whole deal, but still, Ralph took the cash, the putz:

But the financial records show that $23,000 in checks of $1,000 or more have come from loyal Republicans. Among those who have given recently to Nader are Houston businessman Nijad Fares, who donated $200,000 to President Bush's 2000 inaugural committee; Richard J. Egan, the former ambassador to Ireland, and his wife, Pamela, who have raised more than $300,000 for Bush; Michigan developer Ghassan Saab, who has given $30,000 to the RNC since 2001; and frozen food magnate Jeno Paulucci, and his wife, Lois, who have donated $150, 000 to GOP causes since 2000 alone.

Ah, but wait, there's more!
A statewide poll by the Survey and Policy Research Institute at San Jose State University released Wednesday indicates that if Nader qualifies as a presidential candidate on the California ballot, the former consumer advocate would steal support from the Democratic ticket almost exclusively. "He would drain about 4 percent of Kerry's support, almost all of it from Democrats, while having a negligible impact on Bush's vote or his support among Republicans,'' according to Institute director Phil Trounstine.

Nader, IMHO, is a jumped-the-shark, self-aggrandizing asshole. His legacy is not UNSAFE AT ANY SPEED or any of the other work he did before, apparently, meglomaniacal dementia set in. I will always remember him as a spoiler, sell-out, shill, jerk who will do ANYTHING to see his name in the paper and his face on the news. I lost every iota of respect I once had for him when he greedily took that GOP cash for a race he KNEW he could not win.

Ralph sucks.

[Totally Committed]

2. My Salute to Ralph Nader:

?

The eyes of The Man Who Will Be Chief Justice for what could be at least 50 years.

TC

[meganmonkey]

3. Nader or not, Gore won in 2000

That is a fact.

If you direct your anger at the real, current enemy, you will likely accomplish more.

Peace.

[RaleighNCDUer]

15. Nader gave them cover.

The theft would have to have been far more blatant without Nader there. In 2000, they could not have gotten away with it.

[GreenPartyVoter]

29. Sorry, but in this century we're talking programmable machines not

boxes stuffed with paper ballots. Whether Ralph was there or not the numbers would have played out exactly the way they wanted. Just like they did this past November.

Because really, there can be no other excuse for why Kerry lost. Peopl were sick of ** and the feeling on the ground was very anti-** if not wildly pro-Kerry. Funny how there were no exit polls to confirms what the ballot boxes said.

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[meganmonkey]

32. Blaming Nader gives them even more cover

Again, let's direct our anger at the people who are cheating, lying and stealing our elections, and try to fix the problems with our so-called deMOCKracy.

It doesn't seem very productive to me to blame Nader who, for better or worse, legitimately ran for president, when we all know who the criminals are.

:shrug:

[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Frances]

11. So it's Kerry's fault

that Bush nominated Roberts. Sarcasm.

Once again, as far as I can tell, Bush supporters and Nader supporters have at least one thing in common: it's never their guy's fault.

[Outer_Limit]

62. The fault lies with only those who voted for Bush

[crispini]

6. ee hee hee!

:popcorn: this should be good.

[Rowdyboy]

7. He disgusts me, but what difference does it make? Bush was "selected"

and the rest is history. My respect for Nader is gone but I see no reason to continue beating this dead horse.

Wonder who Al Gore would have appointed as Chief Justice?

[John Q. Citizen]

8. No, but I will be pissed at any Democrats who vote to confirm. Won't

you join me?

[tedoll78]

13. I'll join you in that as well.

I can be pissed at more than one group or person at a time. ;)

[11 Bravo]

17. I've got your back on that one, brother.

[femrap]

110. And I will take the sister's....

I just wish the mother(s) of the children he adopted from South America would come forward.....there is something very wrong with this man. He bought those children.....how, why, when , where, who????????

And everyone says that is 'private.' Just as private as my womb??????

[tedoll78]

9. Of course.

Overall, I think everyone shares blame.
Gore for certain campaign strategy decisions, although I think he tried his best under the circumstances.
The GOP for being so bloodthirsty and evil.
The Supreme Court.
Other entities depressing or disenfranchising black voters.
Voters who can't follow a damn arrow on a ballot.
And the Greens, who should've known better than to fuck around taking chances with those goons.

"There's no difference," my ass!

[Skip Intro]

12. Nader yes. Greens...nah.

They ditched Nader in 04. They worked for recounts in OH. If I"m not mistaken, at some point, they expressed support for Kerry/Edwards before the 04 "election."

I have no hard feelings toward the Greens.

Nader, on the other hand, can go to hell.

[Outer_Limit]

72. The greens were actually split between nominating Cobb or

endorsing Nader. And the way the Green nomination process was setup, the proportion of greens that actually voted to nominate cobb was far less than the amount of delegates that he acquired to get the party nod.

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

14. No.

But I certainly share the anger, fear and frustration over what we're going to face with Chimpy's Supreme Court picks. I don't think Nader is rightly held responsible for this nightmare.

[firefox]

16. Not me.

My biggest statement is that the two-party system where the largest minority can claim victory without a majority is the main mechanism used by the wealthy to control the elections. Nader has done more to educate the country on the duopoly than anybody else.

I hate the system and I admire Nader. My regret is that we did not elect him and end the fascist ping pong so that real change could take place in this country.

[norml]

18. Nader who? Sounds like "Last Year's Man"

"Last Year's Man"

The rain falls down on last year's man,
that's a jew's harp on the table,
that's a crayon in his hand.
And the corners of the blueprint are ruined since they rolled
far past the stems of thumbtacks
that still throw shadows on the wood.
And the skylight is like skin for a drum I'll never mend
and all the rain falls down amen
on the works of last year's man.
I met a lady, she was playing with her soldiers in the dark
oh one by one she had to tell them
that her name was Joan of Arc.
I was in that army, yes I stayed a little while;
I want to thank you, Joan of Arc,
for treating me so well.
And though I wear a uniform I was not born to fight;
all these wounded boys you lie beside,
goodnight, my friends, goodnight.

I came upon a wedding that old families had contrived;
Bethlehem the bridegroom,
Babylon the bride.
Great Babylon was naked, oh she stood there trembling for me,
and Bethlehem inflamed us both
like the shy one at some orgy.
And when we fell together all our flesh was like a veil
that I had to draw aside to see
the serpent eat its tail.

Some women wait for Jesus, and some women wait for Cain
so I hang upon my altar
and I hoist my axe again.
And I take the one who finds me back to where it all began
when Jesus was the honeymoon
and Cain was just the man.
And we read from pleasant Bibles that are bound in blood and skin
that the wilderness is gathering
all its children back again.

The rain falls down on last year's man,
an hour has gone by
and he has not moved his hand.
But everything will happen if he only gives the word;
the lovers will rise up
and the mountains touch the ground.
But the skylight is like skin for a drum I'll never mend
and all the rain falls down amen
on the works of last year's man.

[BrklynLiberal]

19. Nader should at least be invited to the swearing in ceremony.

No matter how you slice it, he greased the gears for Bush in 2000. There were states that could have made Florida irrelevant if Nader voters had gone for Gore instead of allowing the majority, and therefore the electoral votes, in their state to go to Bush.

[11 Bravo]

21. Yeah, and I know I'm supposed to be over it by now.

But as I watch this blank-eyed, soulless motherfucker creep inexorably closer to the position of Chief Justice of the SCOTUS, I can't help but get pissed all over again!

[NNadir]

22. He can't make it. He's been working around the clock to ignore N.O.

Here's "the same as Bush" on the fucking ground in the Morial Center (Convention Center):

[ikojo]

132. If the Al Gore we see today had run in 2000, he might

well be president. He and the Dems allowed himself to be "handled" by the "professionals" and he came across as wooden and "not likeable." Bush came across as an ordinary guy and in image conscious America that is all that matters. It's not the content of one's speech but the image one portrays. American is notoriously anti intellectual and Gore came across as someone you'd like to do homework with but not someone you'd have over to watch this week's game.

Run Gore v.2005 and he'd probably win out right.

[WhiteTara]

162. I don't think Al changed, I think the press

has stopped treating him like a stupid arrogant fool....after all they have had 5 years to look at one of those up close and personal.

[Outer_Limit]

52. The only thing that greased the gears for Bush in 2000

was the wishy-washy policies of the Clinton/Gore administration and Clinton's failing in personal judgement.

And as to "There were states that could have made Florida irrelevant if Nader voters had gone for Gore instead of allowing the majority, and therefore the electoral votes, in their state to go to Bush", how about Gore EARNING his votes. No one, or party, owns votes. They have to work to earn them and convince people why they should vote for them. Thats how a representative democracy works.

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[justinsb]

26. Thank you!

When the Democrats put up a decent candidate I might vote for them, but I will not, ever again, vote for a republican who puts a D next to his name.

[11 Bravo]

28. I won't be running home anyone time soon.

I'll be too busy trying to fend off the tide of RW insanity that the 2000 election unleashed upon the country that I love. As for the PISS OFF! (in caps, no less, and pointed directly at moi) well, keyboard commandoes have always terrified me to the extent that I will refrain from responding.

[Name removed]

54. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DerekG]

25. Isn't "Roe" the only reason to vote Democratic?

They may be corporatists, they may support illegal wars, they may fund the drug war and the prison-industrial complex--but they'll give ya your abortions!

That would actually make a halfway decent commercial.

On edit: Couldn't resist the addendum.

[Tigress DEM]

98. NO. Some people still actually believe in Democracy.

I don't like the whole Republican Lite aspect of the DNC for instance, and I voted Green for Mayor in MPLS primary tonight. She stands up and speaks eloquently for what I believe are the real issues and if the DEMS take notice and put some meat on their plate, we will get somewhere.

I agree the DEM party is a big mess these days, but I don't think it's down to just ROE V Wade.

You have solid DEMS like Conyers and Boxer who are really good examples of the way to get the job done.

Kennedy for all his faults is still standing in the breach between us and all obnoxious appointments - and getting fired upon with all Rethughlican barrels.

And if you're so against DEMS, then you don't have the right to post WELLSTONE as your avatar.

[jzodda]

30. Nader is a scum sucking asshole! Its because of him we are in this

It will be a COLD day in hell before I forget the 2000 election, a cold day.


Nader, in my eyes, is worse then the lowest scum on earth

[justinsb]

31. You might as well blame Ross Perot or the Libertarians

Maybe if the Democrats, as a party, EVER STAND FOR ANYTHING (other than not being technically Republican) they will start to win elections again.

[jzodda]

34. I blame Nader and nobody else

Nader=Satan

[justinsb]

37. Whatever

You probably believe in creationism and that dinosaurs didn't actually exist too

[jzodda]

38. Nader is Dinosaur Poop

:D

[Tigress DEM]

100. Bit harsh, dude. Anyone who did wrong should take their portion...

of the blame and in 2000 I could cut Nader possible slack because I don't know for sure if he could have known what would happen.

In 2004 when he became a paid shill for RNC, then he became a traitor, but there were others, like Ken Blackwell who have their own portion of the blame.

In fact between Blackwell and Nader, I think Blackwell is the most culpable. He was in CHARGE of holding fair elections in Ohio and did everything to cheat and defray all investigations until after the electoral vote. He did everything as a conscious effort to deliver the Ohio vote to B***, whereas Nader was just a stupid dupe hanging onto his bright shinning moment way after it had gone down the toilet.

[LoZoccolo]

146. Of course he didn't know what would happen...

...that's why he should have stayed out!

[jzodda]

161. I was just in a bad mood when I posted this

I do not blame only Nader regardless of what I said. Your right it was a bit harsh reading it a day later and less coffee :D

[DerekG]

36. Hell, I still blame Benjamin Spock for McGovern's loss

Those f---ing political idealists. :sarcasm:

[jzodda]

39. before my time

Who is Benjamin Spock? Isnt that Kirks first officer :D

[DerekG]

49. Dr. Spock was an influential pediatrician and humanist

He was a fierce opponent of the Vietnam War, and ran third party in '72 as a far left candidate (surprising, since McGovern was actually a *real* liberal, as opposed to every Democratic nominee thereafter).

He was before my time, too: I was just mocking the "Nader is the antichrist/bogeyman/enabler" crowd.

[jzodda]

55. Well its a tough comparison b/c McGovern lost 49 states right?

[DerekG]

68. That's right (I believe he won Mass.)

But why should Nader be the only third party progressive to be savaged?

C'mon everyone, how about we go after Eugene Debs next? (The bastard said Woodrow Wilson was a tool for the corporations. And Wilson proved him wrong didn't he? He kept us out of the war and...ah shit.)

[Webster Green]

42. That's ridiculous!

Nader calls both the dems and the pukes on their bullshit.

Why shouldn't he run for office if he wants to?

Why do you hate democracy?

Nader rocks!

[jzodda]

50. I agree with some of his message

That both parties have been corrupted by the $$$$$$$


but I sure as hell wish that he did not run in 2000. I know the argument that Gore should not have had to rely on the Nader factor at all if he had run a good campaign. You are probably right too, but emotionally its hard to get over that Gore came soooo close to being President and if Nader had not run that time around Gore would be Pres.

[Tigress DEM]

101. Nader of 2000 was ok, but when he took RNC money in 2004....

he crossed the line. I can't trust anyone who takes RNC money because it comes with strings and all kinds of sick shit attached.

Running for office is one thing. 2000's issues were still really the vote fraud and Katherine Harris. Nader didn't help, but I agree, if someone wants to run they should.

If they want to shill for the rethugs, they are free to do that too, but they should be outed for conflict of interest and not be trusted to be impartial even if elected.

[Webster Green]

111. Yes, I agree with you totally....

That's my take as well. I threw in the "Nader Rocks!" just to stir up the flamefest embers.

[Outer_Limit]

154. You say he took RNC money. What is your source?

[mike_c]

33. this is a democratic republic...

...and Ralph Nader had every right to run for president, just as his supporters had every right to vote for him. I salute them for their committment and their courage. As for the OP-- f*ck that noise. That's what fascism sounds like. Let's get a few righteous brown-shirts on the job while we're at it, shall we? What a STUPID example of herd mentality this anti-Nader circle-jerk has turned out to be, and five years after the fact! Some people just never get it. It's called democracy. That's how it works.

Al Gore ran one of the weakest campaigns in my memory. He was unable to win an unambiguous electoral majority against one of the dumbest pieces of texas turd to ever seek the presidency. The Bush campaign, on the other hand, made brilliant use of ascendent conservative anger to move said POS into the White House. Against that backdrop, Nader's campaign was a shadow puppet show that only mattered nationally because of the jobs the principles did- and didn't do. And regardless, both Nader and his supporters were exercising their rights under the democratic tradition that you CLAIM to support. Just as long as no one ever actually tries to use those rights, eh?

For the record, I voted for Al Gore in 2000. I urged all my Green friends to vote for him too, I told them that too much was at stake to let the repigs win. But you know what? That will always be true, yet nonetheless people must still enjoy the right to exercise their franchise as they see fit if we are to have any hope of remaining free, and they should expect to do so without having to endure a raftload of crap from their fellow citizens about it. You want democracy? Then learn to stop whining about the way it works.

End of rant.

[11 Bravo]

70. Salute your ass off, Sparky.

And if you can find anything in my OP that questions Nader's RIGHT to run for President, please identify it for me. I question his claim that "there's no difference between the two parties". Do you subscribe to that as well?

[Name removed]

35. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[11 Bravo]

51. Good one!

Maybe if Nader decides to run again you can be his vice-presidential candidate. You seem to have a little Cheney in you, and, after all, there's no difference between the parties.

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

64. Is that you...

...Uncle Dick?

http://www.karlandkinggeorge.com/Uncle_Dick.html

[Geoff R. Casavant]

40. The way I see it . . .

if Gore had won Tennessee (his home state, for crying out loud) in 2000, Florida would have been nothing mkore than a legal footnote. I don't blame Nader for Gore's loss of Tennessee.

[GreenPartyVoter]

44. I have always wondered about TN..

Was it a Bible belt kneejerk reaction to the blue dress and they stupidly assumed Gore got some action from Monica too?

Was it a badly run campaign? (And I agree in that man, if you compare the Al Gore we have seen since the election compared to who we saw before the election, what a difference.)

Was Diebold in TN at that time?

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[jzodda]

63. He lost Tenn because it was trending Red

that state like the rest of the south was trending Red. Its pure and simple. If you go back to the history of the campaign Tenn was not really considered in play. Gore gave up fairly early on getting that state.

But....Take Nader out of a bunch of places like FLORIDA and then gee...who is President now?

[cynatnite]

93. All I heard was 'gore is so bad he couldn't carry his own state'...

after bush stole the WH. :crazy:

It didn't take a rocket scientist to know how TN was going to go...least that's what I thought. I figured it would go red anyway.

[submerged99]

43. I dont know many people who voted for Nader in 2004

I didn't know Nader was that much of a factor last November.

[tabasco]

46. Nader supporters will deny the reality to the very end.

Would you want to admit that you helped install Bush??

I have seen nothing but denials. Pure intellectual dishonesty.

Ever since politics began, there have been coalitions and coalition breakers. Nader acted as a coalition breaker by splitting the left and the result was President George W. Bush.

By the way 11B, I hope you aren't still in the IRR. I got my orders a couple days ago.

[justinsb]

57. Democrats will deny to the very end

That they lost because their candidates were terrible, their campaigns were run like 3rd grade lemonade stands and their party doesn't stand for anything but Republican-lite. So, they have to blame Nader, the Libertarians, the Peace and Freedom party - it can't be their party's fault that their party lost, it can't have anything to do with the fact that they gave potential Nader voters no reason to support them. "Those damn Green Party Voters, their votes are ours by right, they're not allowed to make up their own mind, police should monitor them in the voting booth to make sure they fulfill their contractual obligation to support any right wing a**hole we decide to nominate".

You and the people who are saying similar things are absolutely no better, in any way, than Republicans and - no matter who you nominate, this thread has cost the Dems my vote in 08. - Congradulations

[dsc]

67. All of the following is true about the terrible campaign of Al Gore

Gore gained 15% over the course of his horrid campaign. Bush lost 2% in the same time frame. A net gain of 17%. In the era of modern polling only Bush the elder had a bigger turn around and that was almost all Dukakis losing instead of Bush gaining.

Gore got a higher percentage of people to vote for him than all but 2 candidate who ran from 1948 to 2000 on the Democratic ticket. He got a higher percent of the vote than Truman, Kennedy, and both of Clinton's runs. He also did better than all of our losers in that time frame including Humphrey. Carter only got around 1.5% more than Gore did. That would be the Carter who ran against the man who pardoned Nixon while both inflation and unemployment were extremely high.

Gore won every state he contest in 2000 except NH and FL and he really did win FL. In short, he made wise use of his campaign resources. The only state he has been criticised for writing off was Ohio, and that was lost with Bush getting over 50% of the vote.

Gore did all of the above while being outspent, and with the most hostile press coverage in the history of the country.

[ikojo]

128. Um, Gore did not win Missouri...the chimp did

and while Jean Carnahan was appointed senator from MO after her husband's death..she lost a special election to a hard core right-winger, James Talent, because she ran a bad campaign and didn't offer an alternative to a real Republican and a fake one. She had supported the PATRIOT Act and the attack on Iraq. To this day she does not feel she did anything wrong in voting to authorize Bush to attack Iraq, I know because I asked her point blank and she responded that she dealt with the facts as she and her staff saw them.

[dsc]

156. I don't see where I said Gore won MO

He had pretty much written of MO around the same time he wrote off OH.

[tabasco]

75. See post # 46

No difference between the parties, eh, Ralph?

[11 Bravo]

85. Thanks, there's that pesky "picture worth 1,000 words". n/t

[dad]

102. Not when it comes to the Iraq war.

Kerry promised to send MORE troops there, and said he'd vote for the fucking war even knowing that there were no WMD.

Nader actually has the right stance on that and many issue.

Maybe when Dems stop blindly voting for whatever numbnuts their party apparatus nominates we'll get some real leaders.

[ikojo]

131. No, not when it comes to voting to authorize an attack on

a sovereign nation with no WMDs and no connection to the events of 9/11/01...

The DEMOCRATIC party overwhelmingly and with great fanfare (recall the pic of Dick Gephardt and company standing with Bush in the Rose Garden around the time of the war authorization vote?) supported the rush to war. John Kerry voted for it as did most of the Dems who ran in the primaries.

Since Ralph Nader was not a congress critter or a senator I don't think he is responsible for the dead in Iraq, American or Iraqi. Those who authorized Bush to go to war are entirely responsible.

If you hold Nader responsible what about the 50% of Americans who didn't bother to get off their duffs and vote for any candidate? Do they not share responsibility as well? What about the Dems who voted for Bush in 2000 and 2004?

[Name removed]

82. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[jzodda]

59. Exactly...Its pure intellectual dishonesty 100%

Gore even met with Nader during the campaign and asked him to come on board. Nader, along with most of his supporters, wore blinders the whole time.

The arguments that Bush is not much different then Gore is so stupid its laughable.

[dsc]

47. Two words

New Hampshire. A state with a Demcoratic governor in 2000 where Gore would have won but for Nader. With that state he would have won the Presidency. No SCOTUS, no Iraq war, no Parris Hilton tax cut, no John Roberts. If Nader supporters were honest and admitted they didn't give a damn about the Supreme Court, I could respect that. But this Bullshit of it isn't our fault it is Democrats just pisses me off no end.

[mike_c]

60. one word...

Tennessee, Gore's own home state. He ran one of the lamest campaigns I have seen in decades.

[dsc]

69. No Democrat has won a two way race in TN

since Carter. TN was never a realistic shot for Gore especially given the fact that only one statewide race has been won by Democrats there since Clinton's win in 96. We lost 5 Senate races in that time, and 2 Governor races. We did finally win again in 2002 but that was a very narrow win with a state that was on the verge of financial ruin thanks to Republican mismanagment.

[LSK]

88. 3 letters

NRA.

They had a big swiftboat campaign in Tenn telling everyone that Gore would take away their guns.

[mike_c]

90. well, he wasn't very effective at countering that message, was he...?

Al Gore, bless his heart, ran one of the lamest campaigns in recent memory. DUers grouse about Nader-- Nader got what? one or two percent of the vote? Gore and Bush split the remaining 98 percent or so nearly equally. Roughly 49 percent of Americans voted for Bush. And DUers still blame Nader? The worst form of ignorance is willful ignorance, IMO. Nader was a footnote to the 2000 election. Notwithstanding that Gore probably did win the the 2000 vote, it was his to lose and he essentially lost it. TO GEORGE W. BUSH, for crying out loud! The most obvious fumble-bum who I've ever seen run for president. The least common denominator that the republican party could sink to. Al Gore could not decisively defeat the worst candidate the republicans have run in years. Bob Dole was a worthier opponent than Bush! And the true believers still blame Gore's defeat on Ralph Nader? Un-fricking-believable.

[VOX]

125. GOP war chest has an obscene amount of BIG $$$ in it...

and for whatever reason, the media took delight in bashing Gore, helping to foment the "I created the Internet" lie, etc. Gore had more obstacles to overcome than did *.

It wasn't just Gore's advisors that did him in -- the GOP has a near-bottomless amount of corporate cash to pump into any election. This was a major obstacle for Gore, and for Kerry, and it will be for the 2008 Democratic candidate.

Finally, it is true that in 2000, New Hampshire went to * due to the Democratic votes siphoned off by Nader. No Nader in NH = no New Hampshire loss for Gore, and that math would have made the outcome in Florida irrelevant.

It was a combination of situations that undid Gore, not just the lame campaign. Although that surely didn't help.

[Obamarama]

58. Been there, done that, 11Bravo. Give up...yours is a fruitless anger.

Last week I posted a giant, nasty "Are-you-happy-Nader-voters" rant in the heat of a Bush-induced meltdown. It turned into quite a flame fest, as I suspect your post will.

We can gnash our teeth all we want over this, but the fact of the matter is that BOTH the elections are water under the bridge.

After I calmed down and sorted it out, I realized I still really despised the man they voted for, but when it comes right down to it I respect their right to vote for a 3rd party candidate if they so choose, and I admire them for sticking to their principles of trying to change a system they believe needs changing.

The other thing I mentioned in my post is that scapegoats are for fascists. Liberals aren't about scapegoating.

You can't go back and change the elections. Ah, wait...the Bush folks did that, but you know what I mean. Instead of brow-beating people who hate Bush as much as those of us who proudly identify as Democrat, we should unite with them to send his misadministration to the dustbin of bad history.

[mike_c]

61. salute....

:toast:

[UTUSN]

65. Yip, Bravo Is Braver for Starting a NADIR Thread - Salute! n/t

[Q]

66. Your type of thinking allows Bush and his cronies to escape justice....

...time after time.

None of these mind-numbing Nader-scapegoating threads EVER mention the blatant election fraud and illegal supreme court decision in 2000. From Harris to Jeb 'crow Bush...they rigged the election for George and made a mockery of our democracy.

Your revisionism is insulting and juvenile. Please stop it.

[dsc]

71. New Hampshire

that is why SCOTUS is irrelevent. Nader cost us that state, and made Florida relevent. It is that simple.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

143. If 7,000 Nader voters in New Hampshire had switched to Gore...

I believe that's the correct number, but correct me if I'm wrong.

[charlie]

144. West Virginia

The only time that state EVER votes for the Republican is when he's the incumbent. WV should be a gimme for any Democrat, but wasn't in 2000. So we're back to square one in this silly whodunnit.

[11 Bravo]

78. Bullshit!

I have posted repeatedly, and for a number of years, that Nader only kept the election close enough to allow it to be stolen. The election fraud and subsequent SCOTUS decision would not have been possible were it not for the narcissistic desire of Ralph Nader to see his name on a ballot. There is nothing revisionist about my post.

[Brightmore]

73. Nader deserves blame for 2000

But it's Bush, the GOP and the lack of a Democratic opposition that we should be pissed off at.

Is Nader stopping the Dems from filibustering Roberts?

[Tigress DEM]

97. Actually in 2000 I don't fault Nader. It's 2004 that there is proof...

of him taking RNC money and after we knew how terrible life with B*** was, Nader shouldn't have ran and if he did he CERTAINLY SHOULDN'T have taken money from the RNC.

I think this thread is about looking back to the first wrong turns and getting cumulative on the damage done.

I do think Nader should be ashamed of taking RNC money because that gave him a big conflict of interest even as a Green because all their money comes with strings and bombs and koolaid attached.

[tinrobot]

74. To everyone who proclaimed there was no difference...

...between Bush and Gore.

Please apologize to the country.

Thank you in advance.

[buzzsaw_23]

76. All of what is happening in McAmerika

goes way beyond and much deeper than the Nader-Gore-Bush arguments. Taking a full account of what is beneath the conventional political spectrum is called for.

"To live in this process is absolutely not to be able to notice it - please try to believe me - unless one has a much greater degree of political awareness, acuity, than most of us had ever had occasion to develop.  Each step was so small, so inconsequential, so well explained or, on occasion, "regretted," that, unless one were detached from the whole process from the beginning, unless one understood what the whole thing was in principle, what all these "little measures" that no "patriotic German" could resent must some day lead to, one no more saw it developing from day to day than a farmer in his field sees the corn growing.  One day it is over his head. -Pastor Niemoller


The problem goes back to when the powers, beauties, and deep knowledges of the age-old women's traditions were supplanted by military-caste mystiques & the accumulation of heavy metals

From d.a. levy
"Really"
                     the police try to protect
                     the banks - and everything else
                     is secondary"

[buff2]

77. Nader is a rightwing shill

The only reason that bastard "runs for president" is to split the votes among Dems so the repukes can have a better chance of winning. He is a corporate whore just like the rest of them.He's a trouble maker for progressives and lives off the millions the repukes hand him to help their candidates. NOTHING could convince me otherwise.

[FlemingsGhost]

80. Misdirected hostility

I do not share your opinion, in the slightest. It appears you are angry and lashing out at an easy target. It's understandable.

I hope you are open to a dissenting viewpoint.

[11 Bravo]

83. I am, indeed.

But then, I have sons, not daughters.

[FlemingsGhost]

86. You are a coach. Do you teach team-building skills to your sons?

The best coaches I've had, taught me to analyze and develop strategy that addresses, and builds from, the current situation.

First and foremost, you support your teammates. We won and lost as a team.

Now, look at your original post ...

[Laelth]

84. Nader made a conscious decision ...

... IMHO, to attempt to utterly destroy the Democratic party. He felt it was corrupt and useless. He felt that things would have to get real bad before a truly liberal party could arise from its ashes. He was willing to aid in the process of making things get "real bad" in order to make America come to its senses, as it did during the Great Depression, and elect a true liberal.

Nader is yet another example of the cure being worse than the disease. In all honesty, I agree with him in principle. I think things are going to have to get "real bad" before this country can make any real progress. On the other hand, I wouldn't wish another depression on this country. I'm hoping that Iraq and Katrina are sufficiently "real bad" to bring America to its senses in 2006.

my 2 cents

-Laelth

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

119. I'm inclined to...

...agree. America was slowly headed down the path of fascism and eventual collapse anyway. Bushco has simply accelerated (quite significantly) our movement in that direction. Either way it's still the wrong path. Things will, unfortunately, have to get much worse before the masses can be brought to their senses.

[struggle4progress]

87. Uh, the courts have just ruled that the President can declare ..

.. Americans "enemy combatants," have them arrested, and detain them without trial; Louisiana is under military control with mercenaries in the streets and the government confiscating the guns of law-abiding citizens; Bush has declared "emergencies" in a large number of states; the Republicans are moving to repeal Posse Comitatus; and, of course, this is all in the context of a bunch of rightwing thugs who have a history of kidnapping and torture.

Who has time to think about Ralph right now? We have real objective enemies who are trying hard to consolidate their power over the next few weeks. The song I feel like singing right now is "If I live until tomorrow that'll be a long time." I'll consider the philosophical issues around Ralph's 2000 campaign when there's less happening.

[Tigress DEM]

105. Do you have a link?

For the record:
- Nadar 2000 - honest effort / possibly a mistake
- Nadar 2004 - RNC shill - no longer a person who can be trusted.

And I agree Nadar's issues have little to do with what is going on now except as one inadvertant mistep and one more sellout that has hurt us all and left the rethugs in the majority so they can go on with impunity no matter what the people say.

[struggle4progress]

137. Padilla court ruling threatens our rights

A federal appeals court panel on Friday sided with the Bush administration and concluded the president has the authority to detain a U.S. citizen because of his alleged terrorist ties.

The 3-0 ruling by the 4th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals panel overturned the previous ruling by U.S. District Judge Henry Floyd of Spartanburg, S.C., who held last March that the federal government cannot hold Jose Padilla indefinitely as an "enemy combatant," a designation President Bush gave him in 2002.

Judge Floyd said the government had to charge him with something or release him.

We hold no great sympathy for Padilla, but we do believe that he - like any American citizen - deserves his day in court. The appeals court got that wrong when they decided he didn't. <snip>

http://www.journaltimes.com/articles/2005/09/12/opinion/iq_3678432.txt

[struggle4progress]

138. National Rifle Association slams New Orleans for confiscating guns

http://rawstory.com/news/2005/National_Rifle_Association_slams_New_Orleans_for_confiscat_0912.html

[struggle4progress]

139. Blackwater Mercenaries Deploy in New Orleans

NEW ORLEANS -- Heavily armed paramilitary mercenaries from the Blackwater private security firm, infamous for their work in Iraq, are openly patrolling the streets of New Orleans. Some of the mercenaries say they have been "deputized" by the Louisiana governor; indeed some are wearing gold Louisiana state law enforcement badges on their chests and Blackwater photo identification cards on their arms. They say they are on contract with the Department of Homeland Security and have been given the authority to use lethal force. Several mercenaries we spoke with said they had served in Iraq on the personal security details of the former head of the US occupation, L. Paul Bremer and the former US ambassador to Iraq, John Negroponte. <snip> http://bellaciao.org/en/article.php3?id_article=8207

[struggle4progress]

141. Bush declares emergency in post-Katrina Arizona, Virginia

<snip> The US Gulf Coast states of Louisiana, Alabama and Mississippi, directly hit by the storm on August 29, were previously declared states of emergency.

More than 30 of the 50 US states are already housing evacuees and Bush has declared states of emergency in many, including Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Kentucky, Missouri, Pennsylvania, South Carolina and South Dakota. <snip>

http://www.forbes.com/work/feeds/afx/2005/09/12/afx2220062.html

[struggle4progress]

142. Katrina could prompt major military revisions

By Rick Maze
Times staff writer

The chairmen of the Senate Armed Services Committee and Homeland Security Committee said Tuesday Hurricane Katrina could lead to major changes in the military, including revoking or relaxing restrictions on putting active-duty military troops into domestic law enforcement duties.
“The time has come that we should just reflect on the Posse Comitatus Act and other statutes that have served this nation quite well in years passed,” said Sen. John Warner, R-Va., the armed services committee chairman. “We face an uncertain future as it relates to terrorism and the use of weapons of mass destruction.” <snip>

http://www.navytimes.com/story.php?f=1-292925-1100656.php

[LSK]

89. 2000 New Hampshire vote results

Bush 273,135
Gore 265,853
Nader 22,156

http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2000/results/

Give Bush FL, take away 3 from him and give to Gore and the Electoral vote is 269 Gore to 268 Bush.

Wouldnt it be nice of there was 10,000 less idealistic Nader voters in this state in 2000?

[FlemingsGhost]

91. You are assuming they would have voted for Gore, right?

Is it possible they could have just stayed home?

I'm glad that they at least took the time and effort to involve themselvs in the process. And I think its telling that Democrats immediately assume that the liberal vote is automatically theirs, simply because it always has been that way.

Half of Americans didn't vote at all, remember. Perhaps there is the problem, not the "idealists."

[tedoll78]

92. Actually..

New Hampshire was worth 4EVs in the 1990s (if I recall correctly). New Hampshire alone would've been enough for him to win.

[LittleClarkie]

94. Fuck no

I don't like Nader. At all.

But for fuck's sake, a vote for Nader was not a wasted vote, and he had as much right as anyone to run.

I'll be pissed at Bush, thank you very much.

Meanwhile, back at the ranch, Ralph Nader can still kiss off as far as I'm concerned. I'm pissed at him for other reasons than the fact that he ran.

A dime's worth a difference my fucking ass!!!

[WildEyedLiberal]

112. I hate to disagree with you...

... but the OP isn't saying Nader didn't have a right to run; he's saying that he has the right to blame Nader voters for Bush, which I wholeheartedly agree with. Without Nader, there would be no President Bush.

A vote for Nader wasn't a wasted vote; it was a vote for BUSH.

[LittleClarkie]

114. I respect that dear, it just seems so convoluted to me

I just can't get into it. Often Nader folks, esp in the form of the folks over at Counterpunch and such, strike me as being off their rocker. But you should be able to vote for the guy you want. And even the Nader folks in 2000 didn't know that 9/11 was coming, or exactly how damn bad it was going to get.

It just feels like counterproductive blame gaming about something that is ancient history now. So much has happened since. I also get annoyed at those who say it was Gore's fault, or Kerry's fault for running a sucky campaign. It's too much garbage to be putting on the shoulders of anyone but the person ultimately to blame: Bush.

[WildEyedLiberal]

116. I guess it's the point that Nader voters KNEW he wasn't going to win

They might have voted for Gore simply because they thought Bush would be a bigger idiot, but they chose Nader because their principles are so holy. Well, their holy principles got us stuck with Bush. Honestly, Nader, Counterpunch, and all those people are just as much my enemy as Bush. They actively attempt to destroy the Democratic party, and are thus directly aiding and abetting Republicans.

[Autonomy]

95. Pissed at Nader? Don't you mean "more pissed"?

Yes, I give Nader and Green voters their fair share of the blame for bush. I can't blame a snake for biting, and that's exactly why I can blame a Green voter for playing with one. They became moralistic and intransigent when we needed pragmatic coalition-building. Sorry Greens, it's going to take longer than 5 years to live this one down. Perhaps a LOT longer.

[Tom Joad]

99. The Democrats vote for Roberts and it will be Nader's fault???

The Democrats (like Kerry) vote to give authorization to go to war, and it is Naders fault?

The Democrats vote for the unPatriot Act and it is Nader's fault??

Massive people previously loyal to the Democratic Party don't vote for anyone and it is Nader's fault?

You gotta be kidding.

[mike_c]

104. Ralph Nader is some democrats' version of Clinton's penis....

Ultimately to blame for everything.

[shockra]

107. LOL.

You got that right.

[Blue_Tires]

103. o.k., answer this:

i voted nader in a state where it was a foregone conclusion that bush would win, and he did win by 30 points (KS)....please tell me why i'm to blame, and how switching my vote to gore would have changed anything

[Greyhound]

106. Oh I see, it was all Nader's fault! It's so clear now.

Nader was the one that rigged the FL election. It was Nader that picked an incompetent boob to run Gore's campaign. It was Nader that made the previous administration whore themselves, and the rest of us to the corporate masters. It was Nader that forced Gore to come across as a stiff pompous ass in every one of his campaign appearances. It was Nader writing Gore's speeches.
Nader is the Grand Omnipotent Puppet Master That Rules the world from the shadows. :sarcasm:
And BTW I did vote for him and Gore carried CA anyway.

[artemisia1]

108. You're beating a dead horse. 2006 is coming up and you're still fixated

upon 2000.

[Gman]

109. COOL! A BASH NADER THREAD!

We haven't had one in a while!

[moondust]

113. Thank you 11B.

I agree. The totally-consumed-with-himself reckless bastard could have and should have, at the very least, dropped out of the 2000 race with several weeks remaining and scared the living shit out of his supporters with the truth about what could happen if the neocons should win. His poor judgment has enabled far more permanent damage to the world than he could ever hope to compensate for by doing good.

You do not have to run for President of the United States to make a statement or to get your issues out. Most people know that.

FUCK RALPH NADER.

[Itchinjim]

115. My 2 cents?

Fuck Ralph.

[FredScuttle]

117. Amen, brother

Never forget...that's my mantra. Nader and those who voted for him made their principled stand. And as far as I'm concerned, they are answerable, then, now and forever.

I said this in 2000, 2004 and I will keep repeating it till Kingdom Come - Ralph Nader fucked us, but good.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

118. Not me. Ralph was right. I'm pissed at the rollover Dems.

The ones that are giving Roberts a free ride without a filibuster. You want to squawk and whine? Try blaming the DLC and the Clintons for turning the Democratic party into the moderate wing of the Republican Party.

[fujiyama]

120. This is something Nader voters will have to live with

While many, if not most will undoubtadly deny responsibility for their mistake, it is impossible to see it any other way - they had a part in bringing Bush to power. They had a part in changing history for the worst.

Many were naive and simply immature.

All said and done though, most learned their lesson and tried to get Bush out of power. That's worth keeping in mind.

[U4ikLefty]

121. Jeebus help me!!! I have to hear this BS after all this?!?

Give it up!!!

Please PROVE to me that the abscence of Nader would've stopped the fraud from happening in Florida.

BTW, Gore ran a shitty campaign & a monkey could've beaten Bu$h!!!

The election shouldn't have even been close in 2000. With Clinton's legacy, it was the Dems to lose..of course they did!!!

Blame you own!!!

[ikojo]

127. Also, what about the thousands of "Reagan Democrats" who are

now "Bush Democrats" and voted for the chimp in 2000 and 2004?

What about the crappy campaigns run by the Dems in 2000 and 2004. John Kerry not responding FORCEFULLY to the swift boat ads, hoping that they would just go away. They did not and they took root in the American psyche. So much so that someone who actually served was branded a liar and a coward while the real liar and coward was held up as some war hero for defending Alabama bars against attack.

Easier to blame others than for the Democrats to accept responsibility for being a lousy opposition party.

[tuvor]

122. Blame Nader's parents for conceiving him while you're at it.

I'll keep saying that as long as I keep seeing stupid posts like this.

Don't forget, 50% of the USA didn't vote in 2000, effectively saying "I don't care who's president."

But you'll give them all a pass.

Pleeeeeeeeez.

[Fox Mulder]

123. I wouldn't blame Nader.

Blame the idiots who voted for Bush.

[ikojo]

130. Of which many were the very working class who are

suffering the most from Bush administration policies.

[ladylibertee]

129. MESSAGE ALERT !!!!Ladies, Blacks, Youth of America !!!!...

Be afraid. Be VERY afraid.:scared:

[Disturbed]

135. Gotta blame somebody.

Gore ran a lame campaign and he wouldn't let Bill help out. The RW Machine cheated and a Dem precinct worker screwed up. Gore won the popular vote but lost to the Supreme Court. Nadar is an easy whipping guy.

[MadHound]

134. You know, Nader bashing has just become truly pathetic

Five years, almost six after the '00 election, despite all that has gone under the bridge, and here you are still blaming Nader. How fucking pathetic is that?

Let's see here, despite the fact that Gore alienated almost 600,000 registered Dems and self described liberals to the point of voting for Bush, it is still Nader's fault. Despite the fact that Gore had the entire Votescam deal handed to him on a silver platter during the recount, it is still Nader's fault. Despite the fact that it was the Supreme Court who appointed Bush, it is still Nader's fault. Despite the fact that we've had another presidential election since then, it is still Nader's fault. Despite the fact that it is more than likely that the majority of Dems are going to roll over yet again and vote for Roberts, it is still Nader's fault.

Pathetic, just fucking pathetic. Wake up, open your eyes, and stop being so blindly loyal, and pathologically fixated on Nader. It isn't Nader's fault, and the longer that you continue to delude yourself, the longer that you don't hold Dems responsible for their actions, the longer you will continue to be disappointed. Wake the fuck up and smell the betrayal friend, it isn't Nader who is screwing you, it is the two party/same corporate master system of government that we're living under that is screwing you.

But nooooo, somehow it is all Nader's fault. Nader now has more power than even the mighty Clenis!:eyes: Just fucking pathetic.

[LoZoccolo]

148. The length of time since 2000 is NO EXCUSE.

So what if it takes time for more and more bad shit to happen? It doesn't matter! We're seeing the results of this buffoonery STILL.

[MadHound]

150. Oh please, if that was the case

Then why do you ridicule the Freepers for continously blaming Clinton for every bad thing when the man is four plus years out of office?

And gee, did Nader have anything to do with Bush's re-election in '04? No, not a damn thing, yet you still continue to dump on Nader, five years later.

What's next, blaming Eugene McCarthy for all the bad shit that has happened since '68? Where does the BS end?

Sorry, but the arguement simply doesn't fly, and continuing to fixate on Nader, five years later isn't healthy, either for individuals or for our society. Come, join us in the here and now so that we can make things better.

[KG]

136. the roberts nomination is naders fault, how?

if i recall, there's been another prez. election since 2k, but the the since dem ran an equally pathetic campaign in '04 as the 00', and got spanked, maybe the loyalists should look in the mirror to find the reasons why the dem. party is totally out of power.

[Murdock]

140. Nope..

I'm going to be mad at the spineless Democrats that will have rolled over and played Rove's Pavlovian Dogs yet again..

[Bridget Burke]

145. Nader who?

I long ago got over being pissed at the sanctimonious asshole. He'd had a fine career as a consumer advocate, but blew it with the aid of Republican funding. And left a blotch on the name of the (otherwise very interesting) Green Party.

[LoZoccolo]

147. I've been pissed for years!

I didn't vote for him, though.

[LoZoccolo]

149. Not really because it's largely about their own vanity.

Don't like that we don't have ranked instant runoff voting? Pretend we have it already and vote for whoever you want!

[Politicub]

151. Nader is an ultra-lubed attention whore

And paying attention to him is just want he wants. He's irrelevant in my book, so I could care less about him.

[norml]

152. Nader who?

"Last Year's Man"

The rain falls down on last year's man,
that's a jew's harp on the table,
that's a crayon in his hand.
And the corners of the blueprint are ruined since they rolled
far past the stems of thumbtacks
that still throw shadows on the wood.
And the skylight is like skin for a drum I'll never mend
and all the rain falls down amen
on the works of last year's man.
I met a lady, she was playing with her soldiers in the dark
oh one by one she had to tell them
that her name was Joan of Arc.
I was in that army, yes I stayed a little while;
I want to thank you, Joan of Arc,
for treating me so well.
And though I wear a uniform I was not born to fight;
all these wounded boys you lie beside,
goodnight, my friends, goodnight.

I came upon a wedding that old families had contrived;
Bethlehem the bridegroom,
Babylon the bride.
Great Babylon was naked, oh she stood there trembling for me,
and Bethlehem inflamed us both
like the shy one at some orgy.
And when we fell together all our flesh was like a veil
that I had to draw aside to see
the serpent eat its tail.

Some women wait for Jesus, and some women wait for Cain
so I hang upon my altar
and I hoist my axe again.
And I take the one who finds me back to where it all began
when Jesus was the honeymoon
and Cain was just the man.
And we read from pleasant Bibles that are bound in blood and skin
that the wilderness is gathering
all its children back again.

The rain falls down on last year's man,
an hour has gone by
and he has not moved his hand.
But everything will happen if he only gives the word;
the lovers will rise up
and the mountains touch the ground.
But the skylight is like skin for a drum I'll never mend
and all the rain falls down amen
on the works of last year's man.

[Mountainman]

157. Look at it this way. Until things get really fucked up they won't get

better so the Nader voters helped things get really fucked up. They are helping the day come when they get better.

[Sterling]

158. No. I have a long list of people but he aint one.

Nader hating is for Douchebags.