My Hero Senator Carl Levin just approved Syria Attack as Pre-emption!

[KoKo]

I can't believe this, I have Carl Levin as my hero...he's my country mouse with his glasses perched on the end of his nose who has been a hero fighting for us Dems.

CNN is just showing him saying that Israel "has the right to pre-emptive strike" against countries which threaten her.

I'm sorry, but his is devastating to me....He was one of the few Senate Dem Hero's I had left.

Why did he do this. This sounds like Bush..and it means the Middle East is going to BLOW and PNAC was CORRECT! Sorry, I'm so upset...please give me an argument.

On Edit: I'm totally against Bush's Wars..and can't imagine that Israel would strike Syria without Bush approval.

He's in trouble and he's now given the "green light" to Isreal and every other country to attack each other!

I'm totally against WAR..I believe in Diplomacy..and think the World has GONE MAD! PNAC REIGNS!

[revree]

1. He is Jewish,

so it is only natural he would support Isreal. But this is tragic, and will only result in more war, death and bloodshed of children in the crossfire.

Maybe it's time we became our own heroes.

[Trek234]

31. Oh please

"He's white, so it's only natural he would support the Klan"

This is very flawed logic.

[Character Assassin]

32. Flawed logic is comparing support of Israel with support of the Klan.

[RummyTheDummy]

102. Exactly. Only a pinhead would think otherwise.

NT

[goforit]

78. Oh please!!!!

Israel was wrong and is a Jewish state!!!!

If I were Jewish here in america or any where else in the
world ....I would be appalled.

"THOU SHALT NOT KILL"
Even when you don't think the others are the chosen ones!

[Lorien]

33. BULLSHIT!

my best friend is jewish, and he and his family DISPISE Sharon and his party! Likud (sp?) IS NOT Isreal, just as the PNAC gang doesn't represent all of America!

[KoKo]

43. Yes....see, I think Sharon is like Bush in US...a "Takeover" by "dark

side." I don't feel Sharon represents more in Israel than Bush does in US...but so many DU'ers seem to feel Sharon is correct and yet they hate Bush.

It's very odd to me. And, I'm a Christian....so when I ask ...it's from that "point of view." Asking, WHY? :shrug:

[UnapologeticLiberal]

74. Sharon was re-elected overwhelmingly

I am not sure why, but he was overwhelmingly re-elected 6 months ago, and as far as I know Israel's election was actually legitimate.

Mousepads, Shoe Leather, and Hope

[KoKo]

76. Yes....I remember that, couldn't understand why. "Fear?" What? He

seems to be encouraging acts of terror by "escalation." Makes me worry that we might suffer that here, if we are kept in a state of chaos and terror, and feeling "on edge"all the time. People might feel the fear they know is worse than the fear they don't and re-elect Bush.

But, on the other hand, alot has changed in six months in the world. Maybe Sharon won't be so lucky next time.

[fla nocount]

88. My S. O. is a Jewess. A beautiful woman and individual.

But she doesn't owe her position and livelihood to PAC's either. Nor do they hold any dirt on her either.........I don't think. Some people are simply owned and will do and say as they're told. Hard facts, it's been that way for a long time.

[bitchkitty]

91. Think of the Israeli pilots

who refused to kill civilians before you make a blanket statement like that.

[arcane1]

2. looks like Sharon is taking care of some of the dirty work

while Bush can pretend to be disconnected from it all


:grr:

[ElsewheresDaughter]

4. bingo!..bush to sharon & visa verse "you wash my bach, i'll wash yours"

[Lefty48197]

3. If Senator Levin says it's OK, then it's OK

Israel has had to invade the West Bank, Lebanon, Syria and just about every country that surrounds it, just to put a stop to all of the attacks that eminate from those countries. The difference between Levin's doctrine and Bush's is that Levin's addresses an actual threat, and not a fabricated one. I don't see any problem with it.

[Terwilliger]

6. ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

:-( :shrug: you're not serious, right? :cry:

[Evil_Dewers]

86. Crap.

I just agreed with you for the first time, T.

[SharonAnn]

9. I'm so glad they've stopped all the attacks. NOT!

I know that revenge is something one wants to perform, but the way to peace isn't through violence.

[Malva Zebrina]

14. but wait--the attacks have not stopped in all these years

isn;t it about time that someone with any brain and with any motivation toward peaceful solutions that would benefit mankind , admitted that violence, a tooth for a tooth, revenge and pre-emptive killing on hunches without proof, that seeking to dominate by violence, simply does not work?

[in_cog_ni_to]

34. Clinton spent

his entire term trying to make that happen. 8 years of working for peace in the ME. It has been tried by a man with a GREAT brain who was VERY motivated toward peaceful solutions...the Palestinian terrorists do not want peace. They want Israel. Period. So? Now what?

[Terwilliger]

36. that is a very simplistic attack

OHHH THE BAD OLD PALESTINIANS...THEY'RE THE PROBLEM!! :eyes:

[Thelakedoctor]

44. Yes they are.

Are you too blind to see the cowardly sucide bombers??

Maybe you oughtta live over there and then tell us how you'd react to those bastard terrorists.

[in_cog_ni_to]

46. No

did I say the Palestinian citizens? I do believe I said the Palestinian terrorists. There is a difference. I did not intend my post to be an "attack". It was a statement of my opinion. So, now, any opinion given on this issue in defense of Israel will be considered an attack? just because you don't agree with it? :eyes:

[Thelakedoctor]

48. I stand corrected

I thought you were supporting the terrorists.

[in_cog_ni_to]

52. My response was to Terwilliger.

Not you. :) I do not support the terrorism against Israel.

[Terwilliger]

59. Palestinians don't necessarily agree with you

As much as they may think the terrorist incidents may hurt peace, they also know that Israel would do NOTHING without being threatened by the possible terrorism.

[DoYouEverWonder]

53. Neither does Sharon and his neocons friends

http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,342854,00.html

Anger at peace talks 'meddling'

Julian Borger in Washington
Thursday July 13, 2000
The Guardian

The Middle East peace talks at Camp David became the subject of a political scandal in the US last night when reports emerged that one of George W Bush's foreign policy advisers had warned the Israeli delegation to be prepared to walk out of negotiations.

Richard Perle, a veteran cold war warrior and former assistant secretary of state, urged the Israeli prime minister, Ehud Barak, not to agree to any settlement which left the future status of Jerusalem unresolved, according to the New York Post website.

more...

[beanball]

60. Defending aggresion

if Israel would stop their aggresive acts,like building home on occupied land and remove their stormtrooper there would proberly be peace in the region.

[leesa]

75. You CANNOT be serious! I srael is the cause of those problems

She is constantly messing around with other countries. Far more UN resolutions against Israel for her behavior than Iraq. You need to review your history of the area...and not the Israeli or US version!

[wryter2000]

5. That's terrible

I didn't know enough about him to call him a hero, but I sure thought he was one of the good guys.

[KoKo]

68. Yes.....he's a good guy..was a good guy....but now, my trust is gone.

I can't really be fair....when he came out and said this. That Israel has the right to defend herself "PRE-EMPTIVELY" because, I thought he was fighting against this.

I am against the "Pre-emptive Strike" Doctrine because I feel it will lead to continous world war. I thought Leven was, also.

[E_Zapata]

7. I am listening to Negroponte at the UNSC reading the US statement

Emerg meeting of the UN Sec Council:


Basically - attributes the suicide bombing yesterday as the work of Syrian terrorism. And was an apologist for Israel's attack on Syria and went back into all the Syria is harboring terrorists stuff.

Basically, the US is AFFIRMING and CONDONING Israel's attack.

Negraponte sounded like he was reading his statement for the first time.....

Arab Leaque - considers Israel's action a grave escalation and Israel shall suffer the consequences of its actions and calls on the UNSC to act. Israel's acts against Palestine, Syria and Lebanon are 'provacative' acts. The Syria attack confirms the aggressive nature of Israel and that Israel rejects any acts for the purpose of peace. Other proof is that Israel continues its act of settlement and annexation of terrorists. The Sec Coun should discharge its authority and should stop its double-standard of allowing Israel to act outside of the law. Israel has not implemented the entirety of the 37 resolutions that were passed by the sec council previously.

[KoKo]

57. From what my read of what you say is: PNAC has won....and US is Dead.

We will be bogged down for generations in the Middle East. And, we didn't learn from the British and others who have tried to "tame" the ME.

I have an Armenian American friend who loves Bush...and worships the ground he walks on! :puke:

But, he says, "America will never win in the Middle East. Believer me, America will never win there."

:shrug: Go Figure? Loves America and Bush.....but says we will never win there. But, supports Bush?

How does on reconciloe this. I think of the Jewish Americans who support Bush/PNAC and yet...I wonder, if they are like my Armenian/American friend who loves Bush and admires him...but "shrugs shoulders in a weary way and says: America WILL NEVER WIN PEACE in the ME?"

What am I to make of this? Fatalism? Martyrdom? Why are we going into debt over this blind support of Bush?

Because "some folks" think he's strong and his "crotch is big?" (sorry to be gross) but WHAT??? :shrug:

[KoKo]

66. If Israel is in violation of many UN Resolutions...why was Iraq attacked..

and Israel get's off free? This doesn't sound like a "fair" playing field...and sends a bad message to every nation member of the UN.

Bush has already sent the message: "Arm so you can Defend" when the US Strikes!" Because the US will come in and Occupy you!

Be strong, attack first or prepare!

What else would anyone do. What have we here on DU learned one has to do to fight the Bushes? Do you lie down and hope to negotiate on a better day..thinking they might listen to reason? Or, do you draw up your "battle plan" and prepare for the attacks the Bushes will send your way?

Didn't we learn from "Selection 2000" and from "Mid-term Losses" and everything else we've suffered through that Bushes only negotiante with STRENGTH and NOT with WEAKNESS or DIPLOMACY?

Weak to the Bush/PNAC crowd is like a lamb ready for slaughter. They only know: KIll, Kill, Kill the ENEMY IS WININ AND WITHOUT and EVERYWHERE.

This is what I see about them. We've been weak to long. And, unfortunately every "StrongArm" in the world is now Emboldened by Bush. Every Thug and Two-Bit Dictator Wannabee is let loose from the leash.

All Hell has Broken Loose. Pandora's Box. :-(

[jiacinto]

8. Syria supports terrorists

A much different issue than Iraqw

[grasswire]

10. agreed

An Israeli attack on Syria is like a U.S. attack on Afghanistan. Wouldn't that be the parallel?

[Thelakedoctor]

50. Yes!

Hezbollah is based their and Syria does nothing.

[Classical_Liberal]

85. Document Hizbolla targeting a civilian?

That is why the attacked Syria, but it is only because Hizbolla sucessfully kicked them out of Lebanon. They had no right to invade Lebanon.

[Aidoneus]

87. it has happened on occasion

in the 90s, there was a particular pattern to things between the groups. Hizbullah would attack an SLA/IDF army position occupying Lebanon, the IDF/IAF would retaliate by bombing a Lebanese city(or multiple) outside of their so-called "security zone" in the south, and Hizbullah would retaliate to that by firing katyushah rockets on either an army base in Israel or a village in return. In '96 during the "Operation Grapes of Wrath" when the Israelis were dropping 24,000 bombs/shells on dozens of Lebanese cities the katyushahs were more frequent than the occasional event outside of that period.

When it came to US officials commenting, there was one side to be blamed there, one guess who it wasn't..

[Classical_Liberal]

89. Misfired rockets don't qualify as targeting though

. If they did the IDF would be terrorist for hitting civilians in persuit of terrorists. Oops!

[Aidoneus]

90. indeed, contradictions like that abound..

just thought I'd make a note anyway.

it's not totally cut & dried like their detractors carry on as, but I think the thousands of bombs & shells flying the other direction really makes their katyushahs in response seem really inconsequential by comparison (more of a gesture of not backing down, than anything else that is claimed of them), and that's rarely given the attention it deserves.

[AntiCoup2K4]

73. Does UNOCAL have a natural gas pipeline in Syria?

if not, there's no parallel. Except the same people running Likud's foreign policy are the ones running the Bush Criminal Empire's. Perle, Wolfoshitz and friends.

[OKNancy]

11. I say fine

If Israel wants to go after their enemies fine, just leave the US out of it. ( lol- right)

[KoKo]

18. OK Nancy..We won't be left out of it..that's the problem! We are IN IT!

and, I don't know.....I think you have been a person who has defended Israel and wanted the "violence to stop" but with this latest "ratcheting up of" of pre-emptive strikes, what does it mean if the Middle East Blows?

Who can this be good for in the end. I don't think for us. Hard as I try...I don't thin for US! Unless PNAC is the New Doctrine and that we defend Israel to the death.....but then...who are we? If we do this?

[OKNancy]

25. Yes dear

that's why I put the (lol - right. ) I know it's going to get touchy.
BTW, I don't think I've ever written on DU any opinion about Israel one way or the other. I see both sides.

[KoKo]

28. OK Nancy.....anyone who calls me "Dear" automatically "turns me off."

If you say you've been "fair" I will take you at your word, though!

Peace!

[shance]

22. So does our government Jiacinto - WAKE UP***

Keep in mind if we get involved in this. All the other things will be erased from importance. Thus another war to AVOID the truth happening here.

[jiacinto]

92. Sigh

Another DUer who "Blames America First".

[Aidoneus]

95. Sigh#2

another Bill Bennett clone; one can only bury their heads in the sand so deep..

[Freddie Stubbs]

99. Carl Levin is a Bill Bennett clone?

[Aidoneus]

100. was that who I was replying to?

I thought it was Carlos with his silly "Blame America First" rhetoric that I was replying to..

[IrateCitizen]

98. May I suggest you visit the "School of Americas watch" website?

Just do a quick search for it on the internet. Of course, you can just choose to completely ignore all evidence of fact, but I think you might find it to be one of the less-than-savory practices of the US government.

[KoKo]

24. Carlos...will bombing them help find Osama?

just asking?

[Classical_Liberal]

84. Syria supports Hizbolla

which has never attacked civilians. There was no base where israel struck this time. It made it up just like Iraq was made up.

[Tinoire]

93. So did Iraq, so does Iran, Lebanon, the UK, the US, YIPEEE

let's pursue our little wars on nouns and BOMB the WHOLE WORLD!!!!!!!!!!

[IrateCitizen]

97. Is that why they offered us intel post-9/11?

Read the stuff that Seymour Hersh has written on this. Syria was offering up just about every piece of intelligence they had on suspected terrorists to the US government. Of course, the belligerence of the administration kinda cut off that pipeline.

[peacetalksforall]

12. This is it?

Distraction AND opportunity to take out Syria? Partners in takeover?

Yes, Levin is a disappointment.

The United States, if under an American regime (and under an administration that we were taught we were all about), would have been doing everything possible to establish peace. Instead, the right wing of Israel rules us. I just hope Israel will supply the bread and water for our food lines to come.

The Cuba situation should have been settled when the Berlin Wall came down and a Palestinian state should have been settled about the same time.

If you criticize Israel you are labeled an anti-semite.
If you criticize the U.S. policy on Cuba, you are labeled a commie.

Ridiculous.

We are in devestating trouble until leaders make as much to do about peace as they do about killing.

We knew it was coming, didn't we?

Insane stupid human beings.

[Code_Name_D]

13. Israel playing provocateur against Sierra?

The resent attacks don't make sense, even from the Israeli wacko point of view. Palestine makes a suicides bombing in Israel, and Israel attacks Sierra? When they're normal MO is to lob some rockets into Palestine. So what is going on?

Of course, we know Bush wants into Sierra. Its in the PNAC, they have been rattling the sword against Sierra even before the Iraq war came to an end. And with Bush's numbers down, and the economy contracting, Bush needs another war to prop up both.

But he can't start this one. The WMD issue has pulled his teeth here. I don't think congress will go with another war. Too bad they already gave him blanket authority for "the war on terror." If Bush shows that Sierra is a "terrorist" nation, than he already HAS authority to go in.

So he is using Israel to provoke Sierra into responding. Which IS Israel MO. Snip the other side until they respond, then go running home crying about he mean Palestinians. Attack Syria over and over again, and when they finally do respond, they become an aggressor nation.

I have said this once, and I will say it again. WWIII started with Afghanistan.

[NicFed]

15. welcome to reality

Who is the only nuclear power in the Middle East?
Look here to see actual political power in the US.
http://www.adherents.com/adh_congress.html
http://www.adherents.com/adh_sc.html
See anything other than Judeo-Christian?
Do you honestly think we (USA) would permit any Muslim nation to gain actual military or economic power in the region?
Do we not control SA, Kuwait, and the UAE?
Iran is racing to try to gain a foothold of power in the region. Nukes = real diplomatic power.

What can Syria do with 130,000 US troops on one boarder, and 300 Israeli nuclear weapons on another?

[KoKo]

17. I am a Christian.....and I want an end to VIOLENCE in ME, Not This Way!

No! Not this way.....this is CORRUPT....PNAC....

This is SICK! And will only lead to WWIII. I can't accept, condone, or support ANY OF THIS! I can't.

I have to leave America if Carl Levin has "Turned."

Who is there left...who is left? :shrug: ......and sad.....for this...

[KoKo]

16. Here's a Levin statement that Levin just made about Bush! What is this?

Here's a link to one of his latest statements:
http://www.senate.gov/~levin/releases/092303pr1.htm

ELEASE:
September 23, 2003
CONTACT: Press Office
http://levin.senate.gov
202-228-3685

Statement of Senator Carl Levin on
President Bush's Address To The United Nations

WASHINGTON – Sen. Carl Levin, D-Mich., said the following today:

"I am disappointed that President Bush continued to downplay the role of the
United Nations in Iraq by seeming to relegate the UN's role to assisting in
developing a constitution, training civil servants and conducting free and fair
elections.

"Unless the UN is more involved in the administration of the physical and political
reconstruction of Iraq, key member nations of the UN will not share in the risks
and costs of this effort through contributions of financial resources and military
troops."

(and here's who he is as a SENATOR):
http://levin.senate.gov/

[ShaneGR]

30. Uh, what's wrong with that?

He says more UN.

[Iverson]

19. you have to understand about Levin

He is not the lefty that some on the right paint him to be. He takes liberal positions on social issues most of the time, but he is occasionally conservative, especially on defense issues and Israel.

He is a smart left-of-center politician who enjoys his incumbency, and that should be your guide to evaluating him, not notions of heroism.

[Bread and Circus]

20. I believe pre-emptive attacks...

against a real imminent threat are condoned
under international law.

You are just a little shell-shocked from Bush.
Well, maybe a lot seeing as he mutated the word
pre-emptive attack from being a tool for self
defense to being a way to take over the world.

Persoanally, I don't see what Israel does as
"pre-emptive" in many ways either. It seems more
like the Hatfields in the McCoys, I can think of
no other way to put it. What both sides are doing
makes total sense in one light but really no sense
at all when looked at from the outside.

It's very sad. I actually think we have to stop
being so reactionary and think "Why did Carl say that?"

It's not a matter of passing judgment as to who's a
"good guy" or who's a "bad guy" -- what we need to
do is decide WTF is going to help bring peace to that area.

[shance]

21. Call him KoKo - he needs to hear from his constituents.

Thats the best thing you can do.

LET HIM KNOW.

[KoKo]

23. sadly, Shance, I'm not one of his constituents..I'm NC,and have problems

of my own. He wouldn't care what I thought, obviously. He wouldn't care that he was a hero to those of us Dems left after the "Selection 2000" because he stood up against the Repugs.

But, when it came down to it....he was always for "Pre-emtive Strike" just like Daschle and the rest. Our Dems are ALL for "Pre-emtive Stricke."

So where does that leave those of us on DU who protested against Bush/PNAC policies.

It leaves us ALONE...Out in the Wilderness...because we are always being "worked against" in the house and Senate. We are caught between the "Falwell and the Israel Place."

"We" don't exist anymore. America is divided between Israel and the RW Fundies waiting for "their" Jesus to come to Jerusalem. Waiting for Armaggedon!

I'm not involved in that. My ancestors came here to ESCAPE RELIGIOUS OPPRESSION! I thought they did a "good Thing," to quote Martha!

[hippywife]

26. In answer to your question...

So where does that leave those of us on DU who protested against Bush/PNAC policies.

Voting for Dennis Kucinich, I would hope. :)

It's the only way to say "NO! to business as usual"

[KoKo]

27. Yes, I gave to Dean/Kucinich...but you're correct...Kucinich is the ONE!

I don't even recognize the America I grew up in!

[ShaneGR]

29. Syria needed a little bombing

I can handle bombing terrorist training camps. No ground invasion though.

[Resistance Is Futile]

35. Some things to think about

How loudly are people going to be asking questions about the Plame/Wilson mess if Sharon has a major temper tantrum which takes over not only the headlines but all the pages in the average paper?

Furthermore, what are Chimpy's chances of getting elected if the US is fighting another proxy war for Israel this time next year? Somehow, I doubt anyone will be able to hear questions about Iraq or the economy over the masses chanting "sieg hiel"...er...I mean 'USA! USA USA!'

Now, there's no way Sharon would time his attack just to get Chimpy out of a jam but it's in everyone's interests to put Sharon back in his cage sooner rather than later.

[KoKo]

40. Good points, "Resistance." That's what worried me, also....

Ugh! :-(

[Loyal]

37. Terrible

Innocent civilians getting killed.

[Kamika]

38. i dont see the problem really

If there ever was a valid cause to attack a country this is it.. next to defending yourself from a attacking country, i dont see anything wrong in attacking people(who will kill you) in a country that supports and give guns to them.


I honestly dont see anything really wrong here.


I mean if we KNEW mexico had al quaida camps, and gave weapons to them.. would it be wrong to blow them up??

[Forkboy]

39. So he wont complain if Iran takes it upon themselves to attack Israel

[Terwilliger]

41. what is your avatar?

Godzookie?

[Forkboy]

47. Nope

Ther Big G himself from 2002's Godzilla,Mothra,King Ghidora.A very different suit design.Looks great in action :)

[bpilgrim]

42. oh, boy would there be 'HELL' to pay then - n/t

peace

[Mari333]

45. Carl Levin is also MY states Senator

and Im going to send him an EARful

http://levin.senate.gov/contact.htm

[in_cog_ni_to]

49. Israel has every right

to defend herself and Israel just happens to be Carl Levin's mother country....he's Jewish. All Jews are citizens of Israel, if not in body, in soul. I would expect him to defend Israel. There will only be peace there when the terrorism from the fundamentalist terrorist groups stops. I don't see that happening any time soon. I don't know why this would be considered a pre-emptive attack. Syria harbors the groups that attack Israel on a weekly basis. What pre-emptive strike?

I don't see the U.S. getting involved in this and we shouldn't. Israel can handle it, they don't need us. Really. It will not come to that.
I'm not so sure that Sharon had Bush's permission to attack either. Sharon seems to have a mind of his own and is just as arrogant as the shrub.

Diplomacy? How can Israel be diplomatic with terrorists?

Clinton tried that for his entire term. Look where it went.

<snip>
Lest anyone believe that the more "moderate" Arafat feels differently, consider his recent remarks, in Gaza, to Palestinian "security" forces: "You will fight for Allah, and you will kill and be killed, and this is a solemn oath....Our blood is cheap compared with the cause which has brought us together, but shortly we will meet again in heaven....." Central to these remarks is the duality of sacrificial behavior; the fighters "will kill and be killed...." Victory for the Palestinian people will come when both the despised Jews and the Arab "martyrs" suffer death. But while death for the Jews will be final and unheroic, a confirmation of intrinsic Jewish limitations and unworthiness, death for the Palestinians will be only a temporary inconvenience on the way to eternal life. It is only by killing Jews and subsequently being killed by them that true freedom from death can be
realized.

Yasir Arafat's appointed clergy, preaching on the Temple Mount on August 11, 2000, spoke as follows: "Palestinians spearhead Allah's war against the Jews. The dead shall not rise until the Palestinians shall kill all the Jews....All agreements with Israel are provisional." The Palestinian solution for "the Jews" is a Final Solution. Only as Israel begins to understand that this solution is rooted in the concept of sacrifice can it begin to take essential steps toward national survival.<end snip>Lest anyone believe that the more "moderate" Arafat feels differently, consider his recent remarks, in Gaza, to Palestinian "security" forces: "You will fight for Allah, and you will kill and be killed, and this is a solemn oath....Our blood is cheap compared with the cause which has brought us together, but shortly we will meet again in heaven....." Central to these remarks is the duality of sacrificial behavior; the fighters "will kill and be killed...." Victory for the Palestinian people will come when both the despised Jews and the Arab "martyrs" suffer death. But while death for the Jews will be final and unheroic, a confirmation of intrinsic Jewish limitations and unworthiness, death for the Palestinians will be only a temporary inconvenience on the way to eternal life. It is only by killing Jews and subsequently being killed by them that true freedom from death can be
realized.

Yasir Arafat's appointed clergy, preaching on the Temple Mount on August 11, 2000, spoke as follows: "Palestinians spearhead Allah's war against the Jews. The dead shall not rise until the Palestinians shall kill all the Jews....All agreements with Israel are provisional." The Palestinian solution for "the Jews" is a Final Solution. Only as Israel begins to understand that this solution is rooted in the concept of sacrifice can it begin to take essential steps toward national survival.

http://www.shalomjerusalem.com/jerusalem/jerusalem28.htm



The Palestinian terrorists have stated that the terrorism will not stop until they are swimming in the blood of every Israeli man, woman and child.

Of course, yesterday's attack on Israel was to be expected....it's Yom Kippur. Almost
EVERY year this happens on Yom Kippur. THE most important Jewish Holiday. Islamic Jihad has claimed responsibility for that.

This whole thing saddens me. :( War is never a preferred option. So many innocent people will die.

Syria harbors terrorists. So does Afghanistan.

<snip>Syria

Does Syria sponsor terrorism?
Yes. Syria, a secular dictatorship with one of the world’s worst human rights records, has been on the State Department list of countries sponsoring terrorism since the list’s inception in 1979. However, Syria has not been directly involved in terrorist operations since 1986, according to the State Department, and it bars Syria-based groups from launching attacks from Syria or targeting Westerners. But Syria has been involved in numerous past terrorist acts and still supports several terrorist groups.
What terrorist groups has Syria supported?
Syria—along with Iran—gives the Lebanese militia Hezbollah “substantial amounts of financial, training, weapons, explosives, political, diplomatic, and organizational aid,” according to the State Department. Iranian arms bound for Hezbollah regularly pass through Syria, experts say. Syria, which has effectively occupied and controlled neighboring Lebanon since 1990, has also let Hezbollah operate in Lebanon and attack Israel, often ratcheting up regional tensions.


Syrian President Bashar al-Asad.

Syria has also provided training, weapons, safe haven, and logistical support to both leftist and Islamist Palestinian hard-liners. The far-left Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine-General Command and the fundamentalist Palestinian Islamic Jihad

have their headquarters in Damascus, and other terrorist groups, including the Islamist group Hamas and the leftist Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine, maintain offices there.

From 1980 until 1998, the Kurdistan Workers’ Party, which sought an independent Kurdish state, used Syria as a headquarters and base of operations against neighboring Turkey.<end snip>

http://www.terrorismanswers.org/sponsors/syria.html

[KoKo]

54. in_cog_ni_to, an EXCELLENT REPLY! and many thanks for the links and your

view of this.

Thanks again, Peace!

[Kamika]

55. some comments, and your hatesite

Ok first off i agree with you pretty much 99% BUT you really need some less biased links for your arguments.

The shalomjerusalem link is out of the question to use in any debate. I would even label that site as a hatesite towards arabs and especially palestinians. It is clearly rightwing, and looking at it some more makes me disgusted how you can use it as a source.

It is clearly a rightwinger site , im sure most freepers use it.. it has its own french surrender link, words like "phony palestinian cause" ets.. im suprised a fellow democrat can use shit like this

The second one is acceptable but not much more.

[in_cog_ni_to]

58. I realize the one post from

Jerusalem is hardly unbiased but, it explained the thought process of the Palestinian terrorists better than I could. WHY they think as they do. Why they act as they do. Why Israel is up against a huge wall. The link to the Syrian info didn't seem THAT biased. :)

I was only trying to give some info on how the terrorists think.
Where would I go for that info?

[in_cog_ni_to]

61. oops

The shalomjerusalem .....why do you say that is a hate site? Because they support Peace for Jerusalem? I missed that in your title.

[Kamika]

63. read between the lines

Just take the link

JACQUELS AND JACKASSES AND OTHER FRENCH ABSURDITIES"

trying to stir up anti french shit..


The site is so clearly anto muslim its silly, i wonder how you cant figure that out.. the editorials use all the cliches.. like palestinians have no right to the land.. palestinians just multiply etc etc,


laying absolutely no blame at all on israel.

Its a pure rightwing propaganda site.

heres a great quote form the site "You will also find pages that deal with America's Judeo Christian Heritage, assaults on the family, right wing politics, America in Biblical prophecy"


dammit christian sites like these makes me ashamed of being christian

[in_cog_ni_to]

67. I have to admit

that I did not read the 5 pages of articles that they have on that site. I wanted info on How the Palestinian terrorists think. I will edit it and remove the link...I'll search some more. I'm sorry if I offended you, that wasn't my intention.

[Kamika]

69. you didnt offend me

as i said i prett much agree with you.. just that i think its sad that we need that kind of material to back stuff up.

[in_cog_ni_to]

71. I tried

to edit my post and I can't...too late.

[hedda_foil]

81. Bullshit, in_cog_ni_to!

Don't you fucking DARE have the TEMERITY to speak for or about all or even most Jews.

First of all, Jews do NOT have automatic dual citizenship, nor is Israel the mother country of American Jews. Jews who wish to emigrate to Israel are granted citizenship when and if they emigrate. Period. America is the mother country of the heart and soul of most American Jews who have no particular desire to "return" to Israel.

American Jews want Israelis to live in safety. For most of us that means a true two-state solution and not this insanity that the Likkudniks have brought about.

[in_cog_ni_to]

82. Bullshit, hedda_foil!...THAT is exactly what I meant!!!

Jews who wish to emigrate to Israel are granted citizenship when and if they emigrate. Period. It's a matter of interpretation and apparently YOU interpret it much differently than I do. Israel is THEIR country when and if they ever choose to go there....BECAUSE they are Jewish. If you are born Jewish, Israel is YOUR country when and if you emigrate. Can YOU think of any other country THAT applies to?? If you're Catholic, you can move to Italy and automatically be a citizen? You should know what I meant. I think you did but needed, for SOME reason, to make a hysterical issue out of it. I was giving MY opinion. If you don't like MY opinion...tough shit! You interpret the the situation much differently than I do and YOU have the TEMERITY to tell ME MY OPINION/INTERPRETATION is incorrect? How the HELL do YOU know what MOST JEWS think??? YOU know every Jew on earth, eh? That is an overstatement on YOUR part, I'd say.

Where in my post did I say I did not support a two state solution???? Where in my post did I say I supported the Likud party?? Get a grip!

I think Sharon is THE WORSE leader for Israel! They need someone whose not willing to be so aggressive....not that diplomacy has ever worked, either, mind you! Never has, since Israel has existed. At any rate, WHERE in my post did I say I did NOT support a 2 state solution? I think the settlements should be removed and they should not build any more. .....so what the HELL is YOUR problem??!!

The problem IS....the Palestinian TERRORISTS DO NOT want a 2 state solution! They want the land that IS Israel. Period. They DO NOT want Israel to exist. Period. I, personally, in MY opinion/interpretation , find THAT sad and frightening. Is it ok for ME to FEEL that way? Do I have your permission? I also don't support the Palestinian terrorist attacks on Israel. Is it ok that I feel that way? I wouldn't want to send you into another tirade!

Don't you ever FUCKING DARE tell me what I have a right to think, opine on, interpret or FEEL! Got that?

I don't think I stated in my post that I was speaking for ALL Jews. That is YOUR interpretation .


You need to lighten up, hedda_foil! DAMN! Take a Valium.

[Tinoire]

94. Todah Rabah - Thank you. More people need to realize this. n/t

Thank you

[in_cog_ni_to]

96. You're welcome, Tinoire. n/t

[gully]

51. He should be judged on his entire career, not one decision.

I don't like his stand on this, but it doesn't negate all that he has done for the good.

[in_cog_ni_to]

56. I forgot.........Good Yontif !

to all my Jewish friends on DU.

[ewagner]

62. This is a tough one for me

Remember that when Bush put out his initial list of "terrorist organizations" Hezbollah and Islamic Jihad weren't on them. Neither, initially was Syria listed as a state that supported terrorism. It was well known that there were training camps in Lebanon's Baaka Valley and yet they were and have been left alone, until now. (this, by the way was part of Graham's original argument about the scope of the war on terror. He expanded on it but this in essence was his premise.)

It seems to me that if we wanted to build up the power of Arafat so that he actually had the authority to cut a deal, then we should have been able to destroy the Hezbollah and Islamic Jihad elements who essentially hold him hostage to their power. Why we didn't do this some time ago, I just don't know. By isolating Arafat, we have left ourselves with no one to bargain with.

On the other hand, Israel taking the action instead of some coalition of countries, makes this a very dangerous situation.

Of course, this is just my opinion...your thoughts are always welcome.

[KoKo]

65. ewagner, I hear you, but have sign in my garage: Iraq Invasion!Syria/Iran

Next! The last big Iraq Invasion I went to (here in fundie NC, lol's) I made up that sign. Because those of us who protested against the Iraq Invasion had "vibes" that Iran and Syria were next. And, if you remember, that's what Wolfowitz, Perle and Rummy were touting.....(that Iraq had shipped the WMD over the borders and that these countries were sending terrorists in to threaten our troops).

Given what I feel about Bush/PNAC, I CANNOT SUPPORT or CONDONE any SHARON Bombing of Syria.

I have this "gut" feeling that Sharon/Bush/Blair are an EVIL THREE....who are out for their "OWN" purposes.

But, that's maybe a minority view here. But.....I'm really so upset over Israel attacking Syria...I wonder where this will all end....and I can't deal. My sorrow and indignation is still too fresh.

[ewagner]

79. Yes, I fear

that invasion of other countries HAVING NOTHING TO DO WITH TERRORISM is in the offing.

Worse yet, I feel that Sharon is engaged in playing "chicken" with Syria.

What is lacking here is anything that even resembles classic diplomacy. A diplomatic solution to this mess would have included what I outlined above (re Arafat) as well as a long range effort to bring Syria into full cooperation in helping out the terrorist elements (btw: Syria was providing us with intelligence until Bush pissed them off by claiming they were giving aid to Saddam's regime).
It would have also been very useful to engage King Abdulla in Jordan to mitigate the fundamentalist influences as well as working with the more moderate elected reps in Iran.

If people stop talking to each other they generally begin shooting at each other............

[KoKo]

Yes, diplomacy is DEAD! Chimp can't handle a complex thought, and PNAC

doesn't take prisoners with their hard line philosopy. It's just unbelievable how low they've brought American Ideals. (Or, what we thought were American Ideals).

They seem to feel "bullying and colonizing for America's interests abroad, is their own, new revelation, but it's an old "revelation" that hasn't worked in the past. Ask the Brits and the French in modern times......and any reading of history will take one back to all the failed civilizations where "conquering and occupation" have reaped nothing but economic ruin and political devastation for the Conquering force.

:-(

[KoKo]

101. Yes, diplomacy is DEAD! Chimp can't handle a complex thought, and PNAC

doesn't take prisoners with their hard line philosopy. It's just unbelievable how low they've brought American Ideals. (Or, what we thought were American Ideals).

They seem to feel "bullying and colonizing for America's interests abroad, is their own, new revelation, but it's an old "revelation" that hasn't worked in the past. Ask the Brits and the French in modern times......and any reading of history will take one back to all the failed civilizations where "conquering and occupation" have reaped nothing but economic ruin and political devastation for the Conquering force.

:-(

[whathappened]

64. carl

i emailed him a few times and he never got back with me , i also emailed debbie and she got right back to me , carl sucks as a senator and i do not like his 2 face lies and all his b.s. trying to look like he is doing something

[Skip Intro]

70. Blind support for Israel

No questions, we send them our money, sell them our missiles, protect them in the UN, turn our heads whenever that's needed.

I am sooooo sorry to say this, but I wonder if many of our nation's leaders don't hold a greater alliegence to Israel.

They are in non-compliance of countless UN resolutions. That is NEVER to be spoken of, of course. And they are the one middle-eastern nation we know has nuclear weapons, but shhhh.

I don't believe MIHOP was born in the USA.

[KoKo]

72. Our whole policy maybe needs to be re-examined in light of PNAC..because

to blindly support any cause without efforts at diplomacy..or trying to work with both sides will, end the end, bring down America. When Bush/PNAC and supporters feel that we need to become Imperial Rome, then anywhere we have our interests is fair game.

And, how supporting Israel blindly by not intervening in this terrible situation between Israel and Palestine will bring us back to what the British and French learned in the last century and before. That's what I'm afraid of. Why haven't we learned from history over there. Not that the Palestinians of Arab countries are without blame, but we keep invading them and asking them to give us their oil, give us their land. At what point does it stop?

The blame is on both sides. But, our new situation could cause the ruin of what "we thought" were America's values. And, we've changed from a policy of diplomacy to one of intervention and occupation there.

Can we not expect other countries to look out for their own good and protection if this is our new "Face to the World?"

[Bozita]

77. When Carl Levin supports pre-emption, we're in deep shit.

Think North Korea.

Think Chechnya.

Think India-Pakistan.

These crazy sons-a-bitches are gonna get us all killed.

[shance]

80. Yes. Insanity and suffering breeds yet more cruelty.

Do they not even GET IT? I think it is going to take mostly women to address this issue.

How soon many Israelis forget that the suffering brought upon them was due to many that they are siding with today!! How demented is that?

Of course Israel exists. They (including Nancy Pelosi and Howard Berman) mindlessly forget the fact that Palestinians have been shut into an occupied territory that makes them essentially sitting ducks to genocide.

[Classical_Liberal]

83. Since preemptive strike really means striking phoney opponants

and there appears to be no terrorist base in the place Israel struck, Levin is correct.

BTW, pray the congress appoints a special prosecutor ASAP if you wnat this shit stopped.