Pope to Exorcists: Keep up the good work for the Church

[Modem Butterfly]

How many mentally ill people will suffer at their hands?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20050914/od_nm/pope_exorcists_dc

VATICAN CITY (Reuters) - Orthodontists have national conventions, as do lawyers and computer salespeople. So why not exorcists? At the end of his weekly general audience Wednesday Pope Benedict greeted Italian exorcists who, he disclosed, are currently holding their national convention.

The Pope encouraged them to "carry on their important work in the service of the Church."

Problem was that until the Pope spoke few people outside the inner circle knew that a convention of Beelzebub-busters was going on, presumably in Rome


SNIP

A Vatican university announced last Thursday that for the second year running it will hold a course on exorcism and Satanism for Roman Catholic priests. The course starts next month at the Regina Apostolorum, one of Rome's most prestigious pontifical universities, and this year participants can take it not only in person at the Rome campus but via videoconference from other Italian cities. This, a university statement said, was because of great interest after last year's course, which was attended by nearly 130 people.



Edited to add cool Exorcist pic

[Mary Hinge]

1. gotta keep those collection plates full somehow

[Cyrano]

2. Send them all to the next Republican Convention.

Green vomit and heads turning 360 degrees everyplace you look.

[Modem Butterfly]

8. I understand that's how Ann Coulter keeps her girlish figure...

She subsists on a diet of split pea soup and gets plenty of regular exorcism.

[jim3775]

3. Is this a planted story put out as a publicity stunt...

for that movie?

[charlie]

7. Might be

Trouble is, the girl the story is based on died during her exorcism... from starvation. Not exactly the best sort of publicity.

[kanrok]

4. Excellent

More Catholic bashing. Please stop it. You are alienating a group that has many liberal-leaning participants. Me included.

[Modem Butterfly]

6. Tell it to the Pope

He's the one making you all look bad...

[kanrok]

13. Nope. I'm telling it to you.

How, exactly, are "we" looking bad? It amazes me that a place like DU, with all the caring individuals, can have people here who make the bigots on the right look tame by comparison.

[Modem Butterfly]

15. No one is saying that all Catholics believe in exorcists...

...but the Pope obviously does.

You might have a point if I had created an exorcism story out of whole cloth. But I didn't. If you find exorcism embarassing, you need to take it up with your church hierarchy, who obviously disagrees with you.

Edited for clarity.

[kanrok]

29. Who says I disagree with exorcism?

I don't have enough evidence to make that call one way or another. I look at things from a scientific standpoint first and foremost. But, I don't believe, like many people, that I have the answer to everything. I also believe that most, if not all, people who seek out exorcism have a mental disease or defect that needs to be treated. I was exposed to evidence that a woman who was allegedly "possessed" spoke Aramaic, a language she never had access to, during the course of her "posession." (A tape recording...BTW, I don't pretend to know the authenticity of the tape recording...All I know is that when I heard it, it scared the "devil" out of me). I thought that through and convinced myself that there was some biological reason for this strange event occurring. Based on the evidence, though, I leave open the possibility that there was another reason for her behavior. I am a Catholic. I believe in God. As such, I cannot just accept slurs against my religion. There seems to be a bias against Catholics here. I wish it were otherwise. I've been here a long time, and I'd like to stay here, but posts like this make it hard to do so.

[Modem Butterfly]

31. So exactly how is posting this article Catholic bashing?

As such, I cannot just accept slurs against my religion.

Exactly what slurs have been made against your religion?

There seems to be a bias against Catholics here.

If you think every article about the Catholic church is Catholic bashing, then it's no wonder.

:eyes:

I've been here a long time, and I'd like to stay here, but posts like this make it hard to do so.

Wow.

[kanrok]

34. As I stated in post #32

I think the article is interesting...the comment: "How many mentally ill people will suffer at their hands?" is bashing. I'm not being overly-sensitive. There is a bias here. Sometimes I agree (anti-gay sentiment is not Christ-like, and you'll never hear it from me), but at other times, it seems that there is a veritable bash-fest against my religion. Sorry if I mis-read your post, but I get the feeling I didn't. If I mis-read, then accept my apologies.

[Modem Butterfly]

35. It's a damn good question

Especially in light of the lax "rules" for exorcists. And it's a personal one for me as well; a friend of mine in high school began suddenly to behave erratically. As it turned out, she was developing schizophrenia. She was the victim of an exorcism. As it turns out, people with schizophrenia can be highly suggestable. Her exorcism experience has stayed with her as a primary delusion when she is off her meds (and schizophrenics often tend to be erratic with their medications).

It sounds to me like you want to see bashing and bias where it simply isn't.

[kanrok]

50. If you say so.

:eyes:

[Dorian Gray]

76. Modem...

that's terrible! I hope your friend is okay now! :)

I am curious, however... did your friend get exorcised by a Catholic priest? Or was it a non-Catholic exorcism? Because the restrictions on priests to perform these things are serious. (Unless it was a rogue priest! Hmmm... that could make a cool comic book!) The rules are not "lax" in the Catholic Church to perform these.

[Modem Butterfly]

82. She's schizophrenic

She has been in and out of hospitals since we were teenagers. She has had periods where she is fairly independent and periods where she needs varying amounts of assistance. This is fairly typical of schizophrenia apparently. She still lives in my hometown and has crashed with my parents occasionally. We write regularly since telephones freak her out (something about disembodied voices, she doesn't like the radio either).

From everything I've read about exorcisms, the rules are, in fact, quite scant. The exorcist relies on his judgement as to whether or not a person is possessed. If he needs assistance (which, again, is left up to his judgement), he can turn toward church-approved physicians and mental health professionals, but he doesn't seem to need their consent to begin a possession. There doesn't seem to be any kind of church oversight.

The criteria for demon possession is speaking languages unknown (glossolalia is not at all uncommon among the mentally ill, though not all people who speak in tongues are mentally ill), extraordinary strength (people in delusional states are capable of great surges of adrenaline) and knowing "hidden" things (a couple of good guesses and people willing to meet the idea half-way could easily account for this). The potential for abuse in this situation is huge.

[Dorian Gray]

88. Modem Butterfly

I'm so sorry for your friend. Living with Schizophrenia like that is painful and horrible. I also have a friend who has dealt with this. She often hears voices speaking to her, claiming that they're demons. She also has periods where she is almost fine, performing independently in society quite well. But she always spirals downward and needs some serious professional help. She's currently on a course of a number of drugs, including lithium. They seem to have steadied her quite well in the last two years, though she still has periods where she "sees demons speaking to her." After 9-11, she blamed herself and her sinfulness for the disaster. She doesn't handle tragedy well.

I know what the criteria for demon posession is. However, reading Catholic Church information regarding it, if you do bring this to a church or priest (Catholic), they must go through the proper channels to determine whether it is actually a posession. They will (unless the priest is a yokel or rogue priest who doesn't know what he is doing) go to their Bishop who will then go to the official exorcist of said community. (Not all priests are prepared to handle this.) The priest will examine the "patient." They will also call in psychologists and doctors to determine what the problem is.

In the information you are reading, it says that the priest doesn't need the consent of the physicians or mental health professionals to perform said exorcism. But, I don't believe that most priests would be that irresponsible. I believe that the church would defer to any professionals if there is a mental health issue or physiological issue.

I also believe that there is much room for abuse in regard to exorcism. But, I think that the Catholic Church is the most cautious Christian organization in regard to exorcism.

[BiggJawn]

99. Ah, yes..To criticise is to "BASH"....

All I can say is that after having spent some time reading the weekly newsletter from James Randi, religious people are getting it damned EASY from the majority of Rationalist DU'ers.

"...the comment: "How many mentally ill people will suffer at their hands?" is bashing."

No, it is a valid concern. It has been documented (don't ask me for cites, I'll BURY you under links) time and again that mentally ill people were treated to all manners of superstitous ritual and folk remedies in the name of "Casting out their Demons".

In fact, here's a GIFT: Google " Anneliese Michel"

[Zhade]

103. Quoting YOUR OWN WORDS:

"I also believe that most, if not all, people who seek out exorcism have a mental disease or defect that needs to be treated."

Now, explain how MB's statement about mentally ill people suffering (by going through exorcisms rather than getting treatment that has been proven time and again to actually work) contradicts your own acknowledgment that "...most, if not all, people who seek out exorcism have a mental disease or defect that needs to be treated."

You AGREE with her assessment that people who are thought to be in need of an exorcism are likely mentally ill, then you accuse her of bashing.

That's one hell of a persecution complex you've got.

[Ravenseye]

73. Really...A Scientific Standpoint?

You say that you look at things from a scientific standpoint, first and foremost, but then you talk about your beliefs. The scientific standpoint is that there is no scientific evidence for demonic/spiritual/jinn possession, nor exorcism. Anecdotal evidence isn't scientific evidence. You may have heard such a tape recording and felt those shivers. I know that feeling. That's not scientific evidence. I've had people that I trust tell me that they've seen ghosts, or experienced hauntings. I've heard some freaky stories, first hand ones too from ghosts, to levitations...

I don't believe a word of them. Why? Because there ARE scientists out there who look into this stuff. There hs never been any sightings of ghosts, hauntings, spirts, possesions, under scientific conditions. There is no 'evidence'.

The scientific standpoint is that there is no evidence for the validity of exorcisms, in fact the scientific evidence is that these people have a variety of psychological disorders, and are hurt, and in some cases killed by exorcisms. This is the scientific standpoint. It's not a slur against your religion. It's just science.

If you want to have belief and faith, then good for you. Just don't try and mix it with science, or claim that science supports something that it clearly doesn't.

[kanrok]

91. You might want to re-read the post.

I never claimed that there was a scientific rationale for purported posessions. In fact, I tried to think of some biological reason why a person would speak a dead language. My point is that there are some things that simply cannot be explained by science. If you think otherwise, good for you.

[Modem Butterfly]

92. Aramaic isn't a dead language

It has almost half a million speakers and many different dialects, many of which are unintelligible to one another...

[truebrit71]

97. So how's that "Abortion is murder" doctrine working out for you?

:eyes:

[Zhade]

107. Abortion is murder?

Did the poster you're replying to actually utter that nonsense?

[Zhade]

102. If a thread about something as unscientific and unproven as exorcism...

...is enough to make you leave DU, your faith (in DU, that is) must be pretty weak.

[Dorian Gray]

75. The last Pope

had performed exorcisms himself. I also believe that they are possible, but the Catholic Church has a rigorous program in order to determine whether someone needs to be exorcised. They do not jump into the fray without doing tons of research into the subject. They even bring in non-Catholic judges to determine that the problem is not psychological or physiological.

I know that to most people this is phooey. I accept that. :)

[Modem Butterfly]

83. No they don't

The modern rules of exorcism allow only for church-approved physicians and mental health professionals at the exorcist's discretion.

[Occulus]

18. Yes, and the Catholic Church is sooo friendly to gays and lesbians.

Reeeeaaallly makes me want to be there every Sunday, being gay myself and all.

Perhaps you should accept my vitriol to the hierarchy of the Catholic Church as well-deserved backlash and chalk it up as a life lesson.

It's true that some sects of Christianity are friendly to gays and lesbians. It's also true that some Catholics are friendly to gays and lesbians.

However, it is an undeniable and blatantly obvious truth beyond any argument under the sun that the Catholic Church, as an organization, is publicly against equal rights for me, among others, and for many other reasons for many other people.

That's where the comments are coming from, and it is completely justified. There's nothing Christlike about it; it's only about societal control and I feel I don't need to quietly tolerate it any longer.

[shaniqua6392]

9. You are right and DU is usually better than that.

[progressoid]

19. Ummm, we also "bash" Democrats on DU

liberal leaning ones even.

[Modem Butterfly]

20. When did posting a legitimate news article become bashing?

I'm seriously blind-sided by this. And how can posting the words of the Pope himself be considered anti-Catholic bigotry?

[progressoid]

27. Beats me!

Apparently, self-criticism is a no-no.

[kanrok]

32. The article is interesting...

the comment "How many mentally ill people will suffer at their hands?" is what I'm reacting to. Objectively, it's bashing.

[JNelson6563]

47. You are incorrect

Do you deny that mentally ill people could be misdiagnosed as "possessed"?

Julie

[kanrok]

54. Do you deny

that there may be more than mental illness going on in some of these cases? If not, why not? If so, then I guess I'm not "incorrect." I don't profess to know everything, like some on this board. I leave open the possibility that there are things we cannot explain through science. Some narrow-minded simpletons argue that Catholics are "idiots" for believeing in Satan, and by extension, God. I have no personal experience with exorcisms, but I have heard a tape recording of a woman who was allegedly "possessed" and spoke Aramaic. I have no way of proving the authenticity of this recording, all I know is that it scared the "hell" out of me. I tried to rationalize that there must be some biologic reason for this strange occurrence, but I leave open the posssibility that it represented something I have no earthly explanation for. But, to me, for someone to say "how many mentally ill people will suffer at their hands?" is objectively Catholic bashing. To say this, you MUST believe that there is absolutely no merit to a Cathoilic's belief that Satan is real.

[Modem Butterfly]

55. How do you know she spoke Aramaic?

This is the second time you've mentioned that tape. How do you know the woman on the tape was speaking Aramaic? Do you yourself speak Aramaic?

[kanrok]

56. The same way you learned about your friend's

diagnosis of schizophrenia. I relied on the source that provided me the information. BTW, are you a psychologist or a psychiatrist?

[Modem Butterfly]

57. So the person who provided you the tape said that the language...

...was Aramaic. Did that person speak Aramaic, or did they get that information from someone else? And did they make the recording themselves, or did they, in turn, get it from another source?

[kanrok]

58. So the person who said your friend was schizophrenic

was a licensed psychologist or psychologist? At what point will you admit you are painting with a broad brush and stop denying that you intended to bash Catholicism in your post? (BTW, the recording was from a source that I believed to be truthful. I do not speak Aramaic, nor do I know anyone who does. It is an ancient language, which most theological scholars believe Christ spoke when he walked the earth. I cannot vouch for the credibility of the tape recording. I made that clear in my two posts. Nor can you vouch for the credibility of a friends diagnosis, unless you are a psychologist or psychiatrist (which you may be) or you were given this information from her medical professionals, (which is doubtful).

[Modem Butterfly]

60. Why the attempt at misdirection?

It's a simple question, really. How do you know the person on the tape was speaking Aramaic? You don't speak Aramaic, and you say that you don't know anyone who speaks Aramaic, so it is logical to assume that the person who gave you the tape had to take someone else's word for it, and that someone else may have taken someone ELSE'S word for it, and on and on and on, until whatever truth may have been there was actually lost...

I cannot vouch for the credibility of the tape recording. I made that clear in my two posts.

Actually, what you said was : "was exposed to evidence that a woman who was allegedly "possessed" spoke Aramaic, a language she never had access to, during the course of her "posession." " and "I have no personal experience with exorcisms, but I have heard a tape recording of a woman who was allegedly "possessed" and spoke Aramaic."

It's not the tape recording that is in doubt, to me. It is the language this woman supposedly spoke. Glossolalia is not at all uncommon in people who are mentally ill (though that is not to say all people who "speak in tongues" are mentally ill). To my mind, this goes to my original point, which was that people who are mentally ill can and are mistaken for being possessed. Moreover, I have to wonder how the woman in the recording, whether mentally ill or not, would feel about being exploited in this way, i.e., being put on display as an example of possession.

[Beetwasher]

65. Flrmixplict Glrglaprodimactlflor Cagnopulafut

I'm speaking in Sandscrit! Take my word for it! Now excuse me while I go projectile vomit!

[Cats Against Frist]

78. "Is there anyone inside you?"

[kanrok]

66. You must have missed post #29

see, e.g.: "(A tape recording...BTW, I don't pretend to know the authenticity of the tape recording...All I know is that when I heard it, it scared the "devil" out of me)." So I guess, to be accurate, I didn't make myself entirely clear in both posts.

My point is that we should not be dismissing, out of hand, the possibility that possessions occur. Assuming that the woman did, in fact, speak Aramaic, it is pretty darned scary. Glossolalia does not explain how someone could speak a dead language.

No doubt people who are mentally ill can be mistaken for being possessed. Perhaps it was the tone of your original post that set me off.

On edit...I actually did make myself quite clear in both posts. You might want to try re-reading the very next line after you stopped the quote. Either you ignored what I said after you stopped quoting, or your being intentionally disingenuous.

[Modem Butterfly]

68. Why not assume she was floating six inches above the ground...

...and painted purple with chartreuse dots as well?

Honestly, you can't take everything that's presented to you at face value. There are very few folks out there who actually speak Aramaic well enough to recongize it from a tape recording, but there are a lot of people out there who want to scam folks...

[kanrok]

71. My, how condescending.

You can deny your bias if you choose, but it clear you have one.

[Modem Butterfly]

87. If you're going to simply make assumptions...

...why stop at just one or two?

Assuming that the woman did, in fact, speak Aramaic, it is pretty darned scary. Glossolalia does not explain how someone could speak a dead language.

Here's the thing: there are many, many dialects of Aramaic out there. It's a 3,000 year old language that was used by many religions in a very diverse region of the world. There are a number of dialects, many of which aren't even intelligible to speakers of the other dialects. Add to this the fact that there are less than half a million speakers of all dialects of Aramaic today and the odds become extremely small that you have encountered someone who A) speaks Aramaic at all well enough to discern it from an audio tape and B) just happens to speak whatever dialect of Aramaic this woman is allegedly speaking.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aramaic

Meanwhile, glossolalia is a common and well-known phenomenon.

You have taken a big leap of faith to believe that this woman was demon-possesed, actually speaking Armaic, and encountered an individual fluent in the particular dialect of Aramaic used. Of course, that's your perogative. But again, I have to ask, why stop there?

[Zhade]

105. ARAMAIC IS NOT A DEAD LANGUAGE.

http://cal1.cn.huc.edu/aramaic_language.html

"Aramaic survives as a spoken language in small communities in Syria, Iraq, Turkey, and Iran. The Comprehensive Aramaic Lexicon will not attempt to be a full dictionary for this Modern Aramaic, which is best undertaken as a separate task, but where an ancient word has a modern continuation, the Modern Aramaic use will be recorded."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aramaic_language

When you can't even get that basic fact right, why are you arguing about what you clearly don't know?

[PassingFair]

89. Question: Do Lutherans have exorcists?

Any Quaker or Methodist exorcists?
Do Catholics have the contract on these?
I NEED to know!

:puke: (Couldn't find one that spins!)

[Zhade]

104. "I believed to be truthful"

So you're NOT interested in sticking to verifiable evidence alone.

MB never bashed Catholics. Give it up.

And for your information, there are IRAQIS who speak Aramaic. For all the Hollywoodesque "History's Mysteries!" pablum, it's not a dead language.

If you'd actually done, you know, research, instead of just believing whatever someone told you about an alleged possession, you'd have realized that.

[JNelson6563]

74. That's right

I believe "possession" is mental illness misdiagnosed, I don't believe there's any such thing as "satan" and I believe when an exorcism is done medical/psychiatric treatment is what is really needed.

Some narrow-minded simpletons argue that Catholics are "idiots" for believeing in Satan, and by extension, God.

I'm sure some do, just as there are "narrow-minded simpletons" who are convinced atheists "hate God" and can't possibly live moral lives. What can I say? There are "narrow-minded simpletons" in each camp.

I think for the most part we are products of our environment. Adults who are religious were likely raised that way, not usually straying too far from that set of beliefs. Doesn't qualify someone as an "idiot" IMO, just a typical human being.

Julie

[CarbonDate]

79. I do deny that there is "more than mental illness".

To support the possibility of demonic possession, one must first firmly establish the existence of demons.

I present this case of an innocent woman (a nun, actually) being *crucified* during an exorcism.

"I don't understand why journalists are making such a fuss about this. Exorcism is a common practice in the heart of the Romanian Orthodox church and my methods are not at all unknown to other priests," Father Daniel added.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4107524.stm

You might draw a distinction between a Romanian Orthodox exorcism and a Roman Catholic exorcism. I do not. I consider all exorcisms backwards and anti-scientific. Belief in Satan is objectively irrational.

You mock others' ability at reasoned discussion. Provide a reasoned defense of your belief in Satan based on objective and verifiable facts. Once Satan's existence is established, then we can discuss exorcism.

[Modem Butterfly]

85. Crucified nuns?

Yikes!

[Beetwasher]

52. No, It's Not OBJECTIVELY Bashing, It's A FACT That Mentally Ill People

will suffer because some moron decided that the ill person is possessed by a demon and needs to be exorcised instead of getting proper medical attention.

Exorcisms are pure, unadulterated, dangerous bullshit. And anyone who defends them is an idiot, Catholic or not.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

69. And don't forget evangelicals do that shit a lot too.

Yeah, shit. Anybody got a problem with it?

[tjwmason]

37. I don't think that it's the Pope's words so much as your added line

How many mentally ill people will suffer at their hands?

You may be interested to know that the standard codes of practice demand that all such ministries are carried out with extensive consultation of a number of mental health practitioners.

But, I doubt that this will change anything - there is such an immense degree of anti-Catholic vitriol which flows throughout D.U., that facts really just get in the way - including the fact that the Democratic Party probably would not exist were it not for Catholics. :shrug:

[Modem Butterfly]

42. Actually, no

You may be interested to know that the standard codes of practice demand that all such ministries are carried out with extensive consultation of a number of mental health practitioners.

That's not actually the case. See point 4 under the Key to the Revised Exorcism Rite

http://www.catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=2824

Exorcists are given permission to consult with church-approved physicians and mental health professionals at their discretion. This is a far cry from "extensive consultation of a number of mental health practitioners". Moreover, it seems that anyone with glossolalia, extra adrenaline (a symptom of schizophrenia), and a couple of good guesses is a candidate for exorcism.

there is such an immense degree of anti-Catholic vitriol which flows throughout D.U., that facts really just get in the way

With all due respect, I am beginning to think that if my original post is supposed to be an example of anti-Catholic vitriol, the problem exists mostly in the minds of a few over-sensitive people.

[Beetwasher]

48. Catholic Bashing??? WTF Are You Talking About???

This is idiot bashing, not Catholic bashing. Morons who support these exorcist freaks are plain idiots, Catholic or not.

[kanrok]

51. Thanks for the input.

Not very helpful, but thanks for playing.

[Beetwasher]

53. Of Course It's Not Helpful for you and Your Persecution Complex

Why don't you go nail yourself to a cross and just get it over with already?

[kanrok]

59. Subject: Hmmm...let's see

Let's explore your use of language: first, the ever popular (popular for those who cannot express themselves in a normal fashion, that is) use of "WTF." Second, you manage to call anyone who may believe in the potential utility of exorcism an "idiot", again showing absolutely no facility for nuanced or intelligent discussion; third, you suggest (likely because I am Catholic and believe in God) that I should nail myself to the cross. Yes, I would say that your rather poor attempt at discource "not helpful."

[Beetwasher]

62. LOL!

Let's explore your inability to use logic or rational thought.

WTF is used quite regularly on this board, so, WTF is your problem w/ it? Get over it and welcome to the internet. :eyes:

Secondly, yes I did indeed call anyone who believes in the potential utility of exorcism an idiot for the same reason I would call someone who believes in using "bleeding" as a technique to cure a fever an idiot. You wouldn't know nuanced or intelligent discussion if it bit you on the ass if you're defending exorcism as some sort of valid treatment for anything. That's anti-intelligent, or, I'll say it again, complete idiocy. Why don't we just forego modern medicine altogether and just pray for everyone to get healthy? Pathetic.

Third, I said you should nail yourself to a cross because of your persecution complex, not because you're a catholic and believe in god. Learn how to comprehend what you read.

[Modem Butterfly]

64. That's just cause your humours are all out of whack

What you need are leeches, and plenty of 'em!

[kanrok]

70. Interesting

When I see posts, like yours, that try to make a point (poorly) by using invective and strident tone, it usually means the poster is an empty suit. Enjoy your insecurity.

[Beetwasher]

93. Uh Huh

Last refuge of someone who has no argument; whine about invective and strident tone. Wahhhhh! Enjoy your delusions of persecution.

What's really interesting is you've yet to point out how MB's post is actually CATHOLIC bashing as opposed to being critical of idiots who believe in the efficacy of exorcism. Still waiting for you to do that. Instead you whine about bad language and "tone". I guess it's easier to whine than actually back up your bullshit. :eyes:

[Zhade]

106. Intelligent discussion?

YOU'RE the poster who can't even grasp the simple fact that ARAMAIC IS NOT A DEAD LANGUAGE.

:rofl:

Seriously - you're not being persecuted. Get over yourself already.

[expatriate]

72. Crucifixion as suicide never works

No matter how hard you try, you just can't pound that third nail in ...

[shaniqua6392]

5. Maybe we could get one of those exorcists to come to America

for GWB and all of his friends.

[mrdmk]

10. For some strange reason I always thought that the Vatican kept a

cover on these activities. People will be leaving the church on the account of weirdness and witch burnings.

[noonwitch]

11. I don't necessarily believe in satanic possession, but....

There are mentally ill people who do believe that they are possessed. An excorcism, if done in conjunction with mental health professionals, could be therapeutic for that person if he or she truly believes it can help.

I'm not ruling out the possiblity that people can be possessed by some evil entity, I just don't believe that there is a devil.

[Modem Butterfly]

12. Or it could just strengthen the delusion

Remember that exorcisms are supposed to have a high failure rate.

I doubt that many people seeking the help of an exorcist would do so in conjunction with a mental health professional...

[greyl]

28. They believe they are possessed because their religion

'sanctions' possession.
The religion is ill.

[Az]

36. It doesn't really work that way

Patients that believe such things are typically suffering from neurological abnormalities rather than a simple delusion. The stress and added delusions of an exorcism would simply exasterbate if not seriously endanger them.

[greekspeak]

14. If they throw holy water on Benedict, will he melt?

Or just spit up pea soup and scream that "your mother blanks blanks in blank?"

[Modem Butterfly]

17. Spike TV had a very funny ad for their premier of "The Exorcist"

It was that infamous "Yo mama" scene, only they showed it about three times with different rhyming phrases dubbed in like "Your mother sews socks in hell" and "Your mother sets clocks in hell". Then they announced they'd be showing it unedited after midnight. Hi-larious.

[greekspeak]

21. I need to get the Exorcist on DVD. I loaned my VHS & never got it back

I laugh my ass off at the movie, and probably spend more time wishing I could live in that cool house. Lots of fun 70's fashion in that film! :)

[Modem Butterfly]

22. I love old horror movies

I once got stoned and watched Suspiria in college. It was showing at an art house and there were lots of film majors. Those of us who were in an altered state giggled our asses off, while the sensitive artists took great offense. The funny thing is, I watched that movie a few years ago without any kind of chemical aid and it was still hilarious.

[greekspeak]

86. Try Flesh Eating Mothers sometime

I have honestly never seen a worse horror film in my life. It made me sick...because it was so rotten that it isn't even CAMPY!

[Dorian Gray]

90. With THAT, I agree! :)

Suspira may be one of the most unintentially funny movies to ever be filmed! And for some reason, it's on IFC quite often!

[progressoid]

16. I guess that's the cool thing about being a Catholic.

You can ignore discoveries in mental health and medicine and pretend you not living in this century. Except for the reference to video conferencing, this could easily have been an announcement from a hundred or two years ago.

[Zhade]

108. Now THIS post is a kind of bash.

Come on, we know Catholics here who aren't like that.

Not a certain Catholic on this thread, apparently, but there you go.

[Matariki]

23. can't believe i'm defending the catholic church -

but they have a very, very strict set of criteria for doing exorcisms. they *don't* just do them routinely.

the criteria they use includes phenomena that is not explained by mental illness - the ability to speak foreign languages of which the possessed has no prior knowledge (such as ancient languages); supernatural abilities and strength; secret knowledge of a person's life, especially regarding the exorcist, which the possessed has no way of knowing - and so forth.

i'm not defending the validity of exocism here, just saying that your concern for the mentally ill in this arena is unwarrented.

[Modem Butterfly]

25. Citation please

Thanks!

[MetaTrope]

40. At least the rite of exorcism has been updated after nearly 4 centuries

http://www.ewtn.com/library/Liturgy/ZEXOR.HTM

[walldude]

26. Yet they have enough Exorcists to hold a convention?

I'm just sayin....

[htuttle]

24. Did the Witchsmeller Pursuivant show up?

[Callalily]

30. This may help . . .

http://www.catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=2824

Exorcisms are not taken lightly in the Catholic Church, and now mind you this is only my opinion, I suspect rarely done.

I'm not just too happy with my church concerning many top issues, social as well as moral, but I guess, "once a Catholic, always a Catholic." As with anything else, if you don't like it, change it, although with the Church, that's truly an uphill battle, and just may be an impossible battle.

[Modem Butterfly]

33. From your article

"The following are signs of possession: a sudden capacity to speak unknown languages; abnormal physical strength; the disclosure of hidden occurrences or events; and a vehement aversion to God, the Virgin Mary, the saints, sacramental rites and religious images, especially the cross.

In difficult cases, while always respecting the secrecy of the confessional, the exorcist may consult with spiritual guides or Church-recommended physicians and psychiatrists before deciding to perform an exorcism."

Not comforting, IMHO. It sounds like someone who has glossolalia, adrenaline, and a couple of good guesses are candidates for exorcism, provided that the church-endorsed doctors and psychs agree...

[MetaTrope]

43. Either that, or a course of state-mandated electroshock therapy and zoloft

:shrug:

[giant_robot]

38. Maybe they can exorcise an evil presence from the White House?

THE POWER OF CHRIST COMPELS YOU!!!
THE POWER OF CHRIST COMPELS YOU!!!
THE POWER OF CHRIST COMPELS YOU!!!
THE POWER OF CHRIST COMPELS YOU!!!
THE POWER OF CHRIST COMPELS YOU!!!
THE POWER OF CHRIST COMPELS YOU!!!
THE POWER OF CHRIST COMPELS YOU!!!
THE POWER OF CHRIST COMPELS YOU!!!
THE POWER OF CHRIST COMPELS YOU!!!

[hunter]

39. I know someone who needs an Exorcist...

[Team44Car]

96. Lord Voldemort!

I'll bet he speaks parsal tongue

[Az]

41. A further problem

Is that the Vatican condoning exorcisms lends an air of acceptability to the practice. Its not just a Catholic practice. And not all that try their hand at it are as cautious as the Catholic Church. Thus we have cases of children being abused or worse at the hands of those that see demons far easier than neurological troubles.

[onager]

44. W-A-A-H Redux...

The whiners griping about "Catholic-bashing" are probably just embarassed that their Church got caught openly resorting to medieval nonsense. Again.

(Since the believers feel free to read my mind when they post anti-atheist hokum, I'm just returning the favor.)

"The following are signs of possession: a sudden capacity to speak unknown languages..."

I grew up in the Appalachian South, where Fundamentalist church services often featured the congregants rolling around in the floor and babbling in the Unknown Tongues.

Wonder if they would have qualified for an exorcism? The thought of a Vatican Exorcism Strike Team barging into the Fire-Baptized Pentecostal Holiness Church strikes me as a good reason to...

:rofl:

[Modem Butterfly]

45. I had a friend who was a Pentecostal when I was in high school

I went to church with her once. Being the only person in the room NOT speaking in tongues was very alienating. I remember wondering how anyone could think that people were actually speaking an intelligible language, it sounded like a room full of homeless people jabbering. One guy, I swear, even sounded like he was saying "yabba dabba doo" over and over again, at varying speeds and pitches...

[Bridget Burke]

67. So you have been alienated ever since....

Perhaps you should see an Alienist?

[CarbonDate]

77. People's capacity for self-delusion is amazing.

I frankly can't believe that I didn't stop believing in God around the time that I stopped believing in Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny, but I guess the reinforcement I was constantly receiving from all around me lended itself to an air of credibility. I guess if everybody around me believed in Santa Claus into adulthood, I might have continued to believe in Santa, as well.

Seriously, from that perspective, these people probably do believe that they're saying things. To what end, I'm not sure, but that's half the fun of religion.

[charlie]

46. Hey!

Welcome back, Az! :hi:

[mvd]

49. They are actually one of the things the Church does that..

I find neat. I have many gripes, but this is not one of them.

ON EDIT: certainly, traditional means of therapy should not be overlooked.

[Sgent]

61. In my experience

the Catholic Church tends to treat this most seriously, and requires local physicians and mental health professionals to clear the patient first.

Its not the Catholic Church that I have a problem with. Its the ultra right wing protestant faiths that tend to go off the deep end, and most of the deaths and other problems are caused by them.

[mitchum]

63. Cue up the theremin!

Boy, some people believe some crazyass stuff

[Cats Against Frist]

81. LOL n/t

[Cats Against Frist]

80. I'm sure most have seen this, but if this isn't the thread, no thread is:

http://www.angryalien.com/0204/exorcistbunnies.html

Exorcist in 30 seconds, staring cartoon rabbits.

[bee]

95. roflmao

:rofl: thank you. I needed that.

[Zhade]

109. HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

That was awesome!

[Taxloss]

84. Faith-based psychotherapy, resulting in faith-based Thorazine.

Thorazine: a pharmaceutical blunt instrument to shut you up.

Faith-based thorazine: a literal blunt instrument to shut you up for good.

[bee]

94. when did the Catholic church start recognizing exorcism?

I thought they always kept in on the DL... even denied that they conducted them. Didnt they? :shrug:

[Modem Butterfly]

98. I think they've always recognized it

It was just down-played until lately.

[MileHiStealth]

100. I had an exorcism once ......

But I didn't pay my exorcist so I
got repossessed ....

[Zhade]

110. Wah-wah!

*rimshot*

[Zhade]

101. You've GOT to be kidding me.

Adults still BELIEVE in demonic possession?

:crazy: