stupid election question, please don't shoot me

[KenCarson]

i'm a sporadic poster on this board, but here is my query


if you listen to some people, our elections are a complete sham, totally controlled by the right. if so, how did clinton get elected? and what has changed from keeping someone like clinton from getting elected again?

is it just the voting systems? or is there something else beyond that?


while i find all of the various threads very entertaining, my real concern is with the idea of putting up with this regime for any longer than required, since it will take decades to undo the damage they have brought

[Coexist]

1. Diebold machines weren't around then, or if they were,

not very widespread. You might want to check out the Election Results and Discussion on DU - lots of great information there.

[truedelphi]

12. But there is a HUGE amount of control...

It might not be total, but what we have in this country
is voting machinery purchased maintained and updated
by two that is right count em, TWO companies. These
companies are owned by brothers.

Call up your local Registrar of Voters office (It will
be a County listing in your phone book.) Ask for the
Assistant Registrar and then ask that person what the
brand name of the machinery that is being used.

At least half the polling districts in the USA use Diebold
or ES & S machinery.

If you live in Illinois, you are lucky. Due to the many
determined Illinois residents who were familiar with the
corruption that existed under Mayor Daley Sr's reign, the
polling places in Illinois are mandated to have about the best
equipment. The election there in Nov 2004 had voting results
matching exit polls almost exactly. (And Kerry, of course,
carried the state.)

However due to the Federal Voting Machinery Laws (HAVA),
Illinois is gonna have to scrap this system and is gonna
have to sign on to somethhing else rather soon.

[ramblin_dave]

2. No one is claiming total control

just widespread rigging and other techniques that can swing an election if voters are almost evenly split.

[garybeck]

8. yes we are

diebold and sequoia counted over 90% of the votes. an election does not have to be close to steal it, if you are counting 90% of the votes in secret.

the exit polls were over 5% off from the "official" count. That's a pretty significant deviation right there.

[KenCarson]

9. thanks, that makes sense, so avoiding an even split is very important

.

[walldude]

3. After Regan and Bush the Neos

thought they had everything under control. Then came Clinton. After his election to a second term the neos had to make sure that wouldn't happen again. So they started on the voting. Gore won the 2000 election. If the recount hadn't been stopped * would be a footnote in history...

[KenCarson]

16. so how does one get that done?

....

[garybeck]

4. electronic voting

has made election theft much easier. when clinton was in office, there was barely any electronic voting. Now we have two republican controlled companies - Diebold and Sequoia - counting our votes in secret. That's over 90% of our votes being counted by them. So the answer to your question is, things have changed in the way elections are run since Clinton. There was fraud back then but not on this scale.

I would like to send you a free copy of a CD-ROM that has videos and documents on this issue. If you would like a copy please PM me your address. the CD-ROM is described here:

http://solarbus.org/election/cd

one thing to raise your eyebrows - here is a list of the executives at Diebold and who they contributed to in the last election:

http://www.solarbus.org/election/articles/0330-diebold-bush.shtml

and one more thing for now -- there are no stupid questions. your question actually is very intelligent.

peace
gb

[thoughtanarchist]

5. This should tell you just about all you want to know...

www.house.gov/judiciary_democrats/ohiostatusrept1505.pdf

edit to correct link

[GreenPartyVoter]

6. I have a page on election reform with links to sites about all this stuff

:)

http://www.geocities.com/greenpartyvoter/electionreform.htm

[David Dunham]

7. Clinton won because Perot split-off some of the right wing vote

[sui generis]

10. Clinton was elected before black box voting was widespread

And Clinton was elected with a nation not as ideologically divided as we are today. A lot more people were more prone to vote on issues than on party, and Clinton resonated with more people.

Clinton was charismatic, held up well in debate and in the press, and the religious right was mostly un-empowered and less well politically organized than it is today.

Today we give preferential grant money to "Faith Based" organizations in a baldly political tactic. We yield to conservative religious values about the so-called morality of sexual orientation in determining our political priorities. The republicans play the fear card, and they fight better than we do, not more nobly, just better.

It's voting systems AND beyond that it is that we have empowered a traditionally conservative and traditionally irrational segment of society to be hugely politically active, and they ARE active, make no mistake.

We can't dump the regime until enough people are fed up with brute stupidity and incompetence to landslide past "voting irregularities" and until enough people are fed up with being told what they can and can't do with their peckers and lives as adult Americans to tell the religious right to shut the fuck up, and until enough Americans are so sick and tired of hearing messages of fear that they will associate desperation, fear and incompetence with republicans exclusively.

[KenCarson]

14. so if it's fear/morality/etc, what type of disaster is it going to take?

or is it going to be just people getting worn out like i imagine vietnam was...(please don't slam me, i was born in 75)

[sui generis]

21. people getting worn out

and the republicans getting sloppy - appointing stable boy interns to be heads of FEMA; getting caught lying, cheating and stealing in every single aspect of government.

You are right, it will take tragedy for the media to sell advertising in the spaces between the "controversy" stories they usually manage to manufacture on behalf of Swift Boat Veterans. It will take competition for Pulitzers for them to realize there's a lot more blood in the republican turnips than the democrats.

After that it will be a feeding frenzy in the press - but it takes momentous events with great tearjerker photo-essays to get the press to be interested, not out of any sense of humanity but because they get to increase their advertising revenues so profoundly over the long term when they have overwrought people glued to their sets periodically on "tragic" news experiencing strong emotion. I know that's cynical but it's a pretty even scale right now and a lot of things have to be added to our side for it to tip decisively.

[KenCarson]

22. i think the term is

"emotional masturbation"

if people can't get worked up in some form about a topic, it won't sell ads, make revenue, and justify coverage, no matter how many people it affects to NOT cover it.

[meganmonkey]

11. Some people above have provided some good links for you

I will add a simple factoid:

Diebold, ES & S, and Sequoia together counted approximately 80% of our votes in the 2004 federal election. They are very partisan Republican companies and there is no way to audit most of the votes. That little fact, in and of itself, is enough to tell me something is wrong with our system.

[KenCarson]

13. so what is going to be done about it?

or will it be like the electoral college. where people forget about it until it matters, then resolve they really need to do something about it NEXT TIME....

[tom_paine]

15. The truth? NOTHING is going to be done about it.

The Democratic Leadership fears to bring the subject up. Like the German Social Democrats of 1933, this will ultimately cost them and us everything, but in a kinder/gentler way.

The Imperial Subjects of Amerika have lost their/our ability to effect change withing the System at the National Level. I wodner how long the Imperial Family will allow us to elect our own dogcatchers, because Tyranny is the only part of "trickle-down" that works.

Does this mean I am going to give up? NO WAY! I will be working & donating my ass off in 2006 and 2008, but I have no illusion of what the outcome will be.

Predetermined.

[meganmonkey]

17. The wording of your question is very passive

I don't know 'what is going to be done about it'. I know what I am doing about it, which has included attending various events (including rallies, a symposiom, a teach-in) in Ohio and Michigan, writing about the bills that are being introduced for election reform, being in contact with my county board of elections (and probably irritating the hell out of them ;) ) and contacting my own senators and representative about it various times.

[KenCarson]

20. true. i'm looking for places to put my efforts that will actually some

chance at having effect. since i'm often behind the loop, someone has most likely already beaten me to it, but that doesn't mean there's no point in finding/helping them.

[meganmonkey]

24. Right now, the most effective work is being done on a local level

County Board of Elections are generally the starting point - in most states, decisions are made on the county level as far as what sort of machines to use. Some states have laws that regulate this too, as they figure out how to become 'HAVA compliant'.

There is some national legislation in the works, some better than others but none that will really solve all the problems (IMHO) - plus most of it wouldn't be implemented for at least a few years even if it passes soon. So nipping it in the bud on a local level is the best idea. And even that is sort of just a matter of trying to convince your county to pick the lesser of many evils.

It's not an easy road.

[garybeck]

25. if you want to get involved, check this

http://www.solarbus.org/election/links.shtml#action

list of action items.

i would highly recommend getting one of the new CD-ROMs on the stolen election. PM me and I'll send you a free copy.

gb

[garybeck]

23. check this website for your answer

http://election.solarbus.org

the election justice center

you will find out what is being done.

[mod mom]

26. If you are an Ohio voter, we have 4 voter initiatives on the Nov ballot:

Issues 2,3,4, & 5 were sponsored by Reform Ohio Now and will address

* bipartisan administration board to oversee elections (as opposed to a very bi-partisan SOS-Ken Blackwell, Co-Chair Bu$h/Cheney '04 who oversaw one of the most corrupt elections in history)

* campaign finance (go from $20,000 per individual OVER AGE 7-REALLY!) to $2,500);

*fairness in re-districting plan

*early voting (meant to alleviate long lines but leaves open time in which fraud can occur)

If you are in Ohio, I encourage you to get active and work on educating voters and GOTV to get these initiatives passed!

We are also working on a HCPB (Hand Count Paper Ballot ) initiative which we hope to get on the ballot in '06.

PEACE.

[libertypirate]

18. The computers are the icing on the cake...

They use multiple techniques to avoid a smoking gun

[Bridget Burke]

19. Let's not forget the media's role.

They didn't start attacking Clinton until "Monicagate"--when a bit of consensual whoopee became the biggest scandal in the universe.

Next, they painted Gore as "stiff" & repeated all the lies & half-truths floated by the Republicans. The media also handled Bush Jr with kid gloves--no hard questions, no investigation of his background.

Let's not forget the Florida "recount." The media got really bored & just wanted it to end. (And Florida WAS stolen--as was belatedly realized.)

Since then, Bush has been lauded as Our Inspirer after 9/11 & "a popular wartime president." But Katrina has made some of the media-bots notice his feet of clay.