Thanks again SF!!! Rally up the conservatives for '06!!!!

[sysoprock]

I think Mayor Newsom's conducting of Gay Marriages really helped mobilize the Republican base to get out and vote in '04. By putting a Gay Marriage prop on just about every state's ballot, tons of people got out to vote that normally wouldn't have.

DING! Bush wins.

I don't agree with this decision, if the family doesn't want their child to be subjected to the pledge of allegiance they have the right to remove their child from the classroom during the time that it is said. They also have the right to home school their child, or send their child to a private school.

Saying that the entire school cannot say the pledge because of the words "under God" is bullshit.

Even if I agreed that this is a good decision, don't you think there are bigger and more important things to be taken care of?

Poverty in this country is going through the roof, the cost of living is skyrocketing in comparison to increases in wages. Does Mr. Newdow care, does he even know?

Newdow, an attorney and a medical doctor, probably has no fucking clue about what it's currently like to poor. So while he stands up on his soapbox and get a little bit of press coverage, millions of poor Americans could potentially be paying for it with a highly mobilized response against them in the '06 election.

Newdow's daughter had to say the pledge of allegiance, boo fucking hoo, mabye when we stop pulling the bodies of other little girls out of the streets of New Orleans and Baghdad we can begin to address Newdow's little problem.

[Name removed]

1. Deleted message

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[sysoprock]

2. Is this Free Republic now?

Is this Free Republic now? I wasn't aware that a somewhat dissenting opinion wasn't tolerated here at DU.

For the record, I support Gay Marriage, I just think that Newsom made a bad move and fired up the Republican base because of it.

For the record, I support a separation of church and state. However, just so that A COUPLE PARENTS can sleep well at night knowing that their kids are saying the pledge of allegience, AN ENTIRE DISTRICT OF PARENTS are going to look at this decision as "Democrats attacking Christianity."

I know that UNDER GOD was added in the 50's, and you know what, I don't care. There are WAY bigger fish to fry than this issue right here.

When you and me are sitting in a Humvee in Syria, mabye we can discuss it further.

P.S. I'll work on my post count for you.

[QC]

6. No, but it's often Free Republic's mirror image.

Sad, but true.

[Name removed]

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[QC]

33. Wow! Did you study rhetoric at the Sorbonne or under the Jesuits?

Such a fiercely learned refutation as yours is truly a marvel to behold. I am properly chastened now. :eyes:

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[libertypirate]

20. Political philosophies only mirror in your mind, in reality they oppose

on different facts, set of circumstances, and don't at all have anything to do with one an other.

So my question is how can one be a mirror of the other if common ground is expressly forbidden by their respective marketing groups?

[Name removed]

9. Deleted message

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[sysoprock]

18. You completely missed my point.

My point, was that GETTING DRAFTED after a couple more terms of Republican control, and getting sent to Iran or Syria poses a bigger threat to us all than two words in the pledge of allegience.

[Atman]

22. If that was your point, I did completely miss it.

My apologies for a misplaced rant, then.

However, I still strongly disagree. We've sent thousands to die in Bush's petro-religion war. The result; a fundamentalist Muslim state where there was once a secular state.

This was done in that name of God you want my kids forced to pledge to. Fuck that. Fuck it all to hell. I will not lie to my kids and to myself just so we don't make the extremists in our country uncomfortable.

[T Wolf]

5. I think -sysoprock- believes that Dems would be successful

if only we acted more like repukes. Oh my, let's not antagonize them.

That has worked so well, hasn't it?

[sysoprock]

11. I'm all for antagonizing them

Let's just antagonize them on issues that really matter.

Take your pick:

Iraq
Social Security
Tax cuts for the rich
The defecit
New Orleans
Dependence on foreign oil

and countless others.

Are you telling me that two words in the pledge of allegience are more imporant than any of the above?

[Atman]

19. It's called "education"

If millions of Americans are unaware of the McCarthyist roots of the GOD line, they should be educated. Opening up a dialogue presents the opportunity to educate the ignorant (and I only mean that in the dictionary sense of the word, not as a put-down). It won't happen overnight. It will take some strong willed, hopefully Christian, leader to take the charge. We are WE supposed to not care about the God line? Why aren't you calling on THEM to not care?

Don't you see this? Why is it always US who have to roll over and take it up the ass, just so we don't upset the GOP base? I just don't get that line of thinking. I DO understand why you think it shouldn't be brought up, and should be ignored. But you know what? I and millions like me are Americans, too. I am looking at thousands dead from Katrina, because of an idiot who panders to ignorant Christian fear, because all of our troops are in Iraq dying to establish a Muslim state who will spend the rest of its days attacking us. And I'm thinking, who the bloody fuck cares if we upset the religious right? It is like the PC "craze." Who are we protecting? It is about time we start pushing back, dammit, or soon you won't have a choice whether or not you get to say "Under God."

It will be required by The Secretary Of Religion. A Bush crony, of course.

[Atman]

12. Yeah, apparently we didn't roll over enough the last 5 years.

Sheesh.

[blm]

8. Actually, the poster is saying what some gay political strategists have

also said. They saw the pushing of gay marriage as a GOP political ploy even while they agree with the concept as a basic right.

Barney Frank is one of the sharpest minds in politics, and he thought the issue should take a back seat in an effort to thwart the GOPs exploitation of it.

He thought the issue would be more successful only when it could be better presented to the public WITHOUT the fog of election year politics.

[longship]

3. Indeed, A clueless post

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."

We're talking about protecting our *first* freedom, that to not have government unnecessarily entangled with religion. This was a good decision.

There is no unopportune time for the U.S. Constitution to be defended. It's what this country is all about. This decision is a good one.

[txaslftist]

4. Just when we've got them (shrub's base) thinking, this butthead...

...gives them a reason to put on the damn blinders again.

"Liberals are against Gawd! See, honey, I todju so!"

Agreed this will be ammo to use against us in '06. Any liberal who thinks this is some great victory is just not seeing the big picture.

"One nation under God"...

Who gives a shit.

[lapislzi]

15. Sorry, but I do

I give a shit.

The constitution exists to protect ME, the atheist with the unpopular belief.

If people don't like atheists...well, to paraphrase the OP...boo fucking hoo.

There are always bigger fish to fry, but this is a classic case of not letting *them* (the religious nuts) get a toe hold. The issue will come back again like a bad penny in any case. Along with flag-burning, it turns up reliably and often. I don't kid myself that anything's been settled--either this time or next time, or the time after that.

[Modem Butterfly]

7. Oh, if only we could adopt the RNC's platform...

...then we'd win elections for sure!

:sarcasm:

[Lars39]

10. What a crock.

[leftupnorth]

24. TO ALL

RED MEAT: Liberals hate God,

Jesus Christ, you folks will nitpick and needle each other to fucking death. How about some good old objectivity? Look at it this way, what is more important right now - neutering Bush and taking the House/Senate back in '06 so we can make some actual LAWS about this sort of thing or are we going to allow the people who are so blinded by the desire to "Beat the Fuck out of the Right" at all costs that they lose sight of what we(Democrats) are trying to accomplish(winning elections).

I'm not saying that under God belongs in the pledge, in fact i think it doesn't, but is right now a productive time to debate that?

This issue is just like abortion and gay rights; it is used to divide people and keep us distracted from the real agenda and the important things we should be asking our politicians about.

It's this kind of shit that keeps the PEOPLE from truly taking POWER. It is absolutely by design.

If you lose sleep over the next two years becasue Johnny has to say under God once a day, you are obviously a single issue voter, just like all those pro-life repukes that will only vote for a pro life candidate, no matter how attractive the alternative would be.

Bigger fish, you bet your ass!

Big picture people!!!!!!

[Lars39]

30. Got news for ya, bud...abortion rights and civil rights(gay rights)

are important to a lot of people.

[sysoprock]

35. Abortion rights and Gay Rights are more important than the pledge.

That's what I'm trying to say.

[Lars39]

38. People can do and accomplish more than one thing at a time.

[leftupnorth]

41. More important than winning?

so we can actually MAKE some change.
Gay rights and abortion, flag burning, etc. WILL NEVER GO AWAY!

Democrats will NEVER win on these social issues alone.

Social Security, Iraq, getting these neocons out of office, War on Terror, OIL,etc are VASTLY more important than my step mother's pro-life voting habits or my gay cousin's pro gay marriage voting habits.

Fact is, the people who are on either side of these issues have already made up their minds about it, the only ones who haven't are the one who DON'T vote because we keep bringing up the same old TIRED SHIT. Wedge issues.

Cons won't overturn Roe, too disastrous.
If they did that there would be a huge backlash against it.
This Republican Congress has had plenty of time to pass a law banning it, but has failed to do so in favor of CAFTA, Bankruptcy, Deficit Spending, etc.

Man, I just hate Social issues, they hold us back.

[Lars39]

48. Yea, separation of church and state, civil rights is just old tired shit.

:eyes:

[leftupnorth]

54. I give up

if we DON"T win we cant change SHIT!!!

I'm not after republican votes, half the goddamn country didn't vote!

Will we win votes from NON VOTERS by rehashing all the same argumentws about morality from the last thirty years or are we going to try a differnet approach and attack where we can be assured of winning? We can push through gay rights, abortion legislation, and other moral issue legislation if you really want - after we win with an energy plan that will free us from oil, a foreign policy that combats terror with precision rather than blunt force, and an immigration policy that makes sense for EVERYONE.

On these issues we can win votes, social issues are TIRED SHIT, in terms of public debate, the ONLY WAY to settle these issues is to gain control and pass laws.

Can't you see, that America is being raped by the neocons while we debate about what color lipstick she was wearing rather than punching the guy who's raping her.

A clumsy analogy, i know, but come on!!

[sysoprock]

56. You and I are in the minority here.

I completely agree with everything you are saying.

[leftupnorth]

57. I sometimes wonder

if people are so concerned with their own issues, however important, over the good of the whole party/country. I believe the Democratic party can do great things for America, among them is gay marriage, preservation of privacy rights, freedom of/from religion. Equally or more important changes like ebergy independence, a smart foreign policy, a smart immigration policy all lend themsleves to the goals of gay rights, abortion, religion/no religion, etc.

It's like baking the apples before you make the crust.

[Touchdown]

46. We can walk and chew gum at the same time.

Talking about all issues in an election year is not a problem. If you think it is, then stand back and let someone competent do the talking for once.

If we let them control the debate, then we are always on the defensive. We attack them, then they have to defend their bigotry (gay marriage) and their hatred for the Constitution (Under God pledge).

If you are truly for gay marriage, then you say "Yes I am. You got a problem with equal rights?" Anything less self assured, they will smell the red meat, and that's exactly where they want you. The problem isn't the whackjobs who hate gays, it's the wimpy Democrats who "explain" their positions with qualifiers, and look like deer in the headlights when asked about something they really are bigotted about like "gay marriage", even though they say "I agree with gay marriage" when in the right company... these are the ones who want to sacrifice atheists and gays to the altar of electability, because they truly don't believe in freedom and opportunity for all. They're just paying lip service.

These zealots think in absolutes. Fight them with absolutes. Equivicators like you are the problem with us losing elections, not the inconvenient timing of the issues.

[Lars39]

50. Well said!

:thumbsup:

[gratuitous]

13. Yeah, judges should just ignore the law!

That whole "establishment of religion" thing in the First Amendment is sooooo 18th Century, you know? Overrated.

And why don't people check in here with anonymous posters before bringing a lawsuit, so we can decide whether or not the picayune little problems in their insignificant lives is worthy of consideration in our society.

It just makes me so mad. !!!

[Hamlette]

14. It's always a good practice to segregate people who are "different"

let's make sure they feel like this is not their country, that they cannot even participate in the McCarthy era pledge.

Let's go back to when kids who didn't pray in school were treated differently, beaten up on the school ground.

Because if we don't, we will surely lose the White House, we might even lose one or both houses of Congress and if that happens, the GOP religious nut cases might take over the courts.

Doing republican light didn't work. Maybe its because we didn't stand up for what we believe in.

Going along to get along does not work with these guys. They will not stop until the American Taliban is flying jet planes into the Eiffel tower, women are in red white and blue Burkas and gays are back in the closet.

We can chew gum and walk at the same time. My grandpa used to say a man who dies with no enemies has lived a useless life. Stand up for what you believe in or you'll lose more than you bargained for.

[Atman]

27. Bravo!

We can chew gum and walk at the same time. My grandpa used to say a man who dies with no enemies has lived a useless life. Stand up for what you believe in or you'll lose more than you bargained for.

[ken_g]

17. I just don't think we should back away from

core principles like separation of church and state so as not to give the RNC ammunition. If they don't have the ammo, they'll simply invent out of whole cloth. Isn't that one of the great lessons from the '04 election?

[Dawgs]

21. sysoprock, you are 100% right...

It's like voting for Nader in 2000. It may have made some feel good about who they voted for, but it still got us Bush and his administration.

"Under God", gay marriage, and abortion have hurt the Democrats more than anything.

[Atman]

25. ""Under God", gay marriage, and abortion have hurt the Democrats"

Or so we were told. In reality, that bullshit excuse used to explain away Bush miraculous victory had not held up to polling and research. We were all forced to buy into that line o' crap back in November. I didn't buy it then, I don't buy it now.

If religion was the big enchilada y'all claim it to be, every retail store in America would have a God section. You'd have twenty Christian book stores in your town instead of twenty video shops and pornoramas. This religious crap is a total sham, contrived by the right to whip up emotions in politically sensitive areas of the country.

Are you aware that the tiny number of Blue states on that infamous election map, are home to far more Americans than all those Red states? We were sold a bill of goods by the GOP and their media whores. It is about money and whipping up their base, not GOD. It is time to put a stop to it.

[Dawgs]

32. How do you think they whip up their base...

They do it with fear. The fear of gays, abortions, and taking God away from them.

I'm not sure where you live, but all I need to do is travel into the rural areas to see and here the fear.

Just last week I was driving to our lake property and saw no less than twenty "ten commandment signs" in peoples front yards. I live in Georgia.

Go ahead and fight this fight, but I'd rather fight the bigger ones. If we fight yours, then the Democrats lose. Just look at the past 15 years.

[Atman]

39. "the Democrats lose. Just look at the past 15 years."

But we haven't been fighting this for fifteen years. And Clinton was president for 8 of them. So I don't get your point. Even if what you say is true, you seem to be advocating doing the exact same thing that has kept us from office (according to you)...nothing. Rolling over. Giving liberals nothings to believe in and no choices in government.

There ARE no bigger fights than our Constitution.

[Rainscents]

23. Do anyone know the judges who voted for this, are they all dem's

republican's or split. This would be good one for someone to investigate.

[TahitiNut]

26. Heaven forbid we should ever actually EXERCISE our rights!

Golly! Let's never make the knuckle-draggers angry! :eyes: :eyes:

That posture mirrors abused spouse syndrome almost completely. Appalling! (Pardon me while I go burn a flag.)

[Dr Fate]

28. If you like mandatory pledges so much, move to Cuba.

n/t

[QC]

34. Careful--you'll offend the Castrophiles! n/t

[sysoprock]

37. Who said it was mandatory?

If they were forcing kids to say it that would be a completely different issue.

Nobody is forcing anybody to do anything.

This is an issue of NOBODY can say it because a couple people don't like it.

[Dr Fate]

45. My 12th grade homeroom teacher, that is who. n/t

n/t

[sysoprock]

51. Your 12th grade homeroom teacher is an asshole.

n/t

[Dr Fate]

55. Exactly- and there are assholes in classrooms across the nation.

Who make Jehova's Witness or Atheist kids feel like crap everyday.

Even still, I agree with you strategy wise- now is not the time to focus on this issue.

I just dont like the way you presented it.

[Dr Fate]

49. Students can say it on their own, around the Flag pole- can they not?

Just like they do when they have prayer circles.

Anyway, I basicaly agree with you, strategy wise.

I disagree with you constitution wise.

If I were A DEM- I would dodge the question and say- "Lets improve civics curriculum in classrooms- let's teach the Bill of Rights- pledges are meaningles without the histroy behind them."

[democracyindanger]

29. Your welcome.

By the way, Newdow's suit started a looong time ago, and blaming him for the geologically slow federal appeals process is dumb.

And the GOP was going to make gay marriage an issue regardless. The fact of the matter is that Newsom did what he did because of a speech he saw Chimpy give--which in itself was a reaction to what was already happening in Massachusetts.

Thanks for the kudos, though. Where's your hometown? I've always wanted to visit Perfectville, USA.

[sysoprock]

31. Uhhh... what is "thank you?"

"The Supreme Court dismissed the case last year, saying Newdow lacked standing because he did not have custody of his elementary school daughter he sued on behalf of.

Newdow, an attorney and a medical doctor, filed an identical case on behalf of three unnamed parents and their children. Karlton said those families have the right to sue."

After having his case dismissed last year, Newdow found some other parents to use in basically the same suit.

As for the Kudos and hometown thing, I don't understand what you are saying.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

36. Oh Boy!! Yet another let's just cave to the fundies post.

How inspiringly insipid.

[mitchtv]

40. tough shit

what's right is the right thing

[The_Casual_Observer]

42. Pledging allegiance to a flag is idiotic.

Particularly when most of those who do this pledge have no interest in "Liberty and Justice for all".

[MadHound]

44. OMG, how dare we offend the RW fundie wackos

Now they won't vote for us in '06! Give me a break, and stop being so blind. The people who are going to get all whipped up about this are votes we never, ever will have. We could run Pat Robertson himself, and if a D was behind his name, these people won't vote for him.

So stop getting so frothed at the mouth about this. This may not be an important battle to you, but it is to many many people, and by all means, seperation of church and state is a battle we need to fight now even more than ever.

Besides, if you let the sensibilities of the RW fundies dictate which battles you choose, guess what, you've already lost.

[WI_DEM]

53. it worked both ways certainly

I have no doubt that the gay marriage propositions brought out many voters on both sides who may not have voted in '04--certainly in Ohio where voter turnout was way up and Bush's and Kerry's votes were much higher than in '00.