Corporate Hollywood Murdering TIVO

[iconoclastNYC]

In their new software release, TIVO has voluntarily instituted a version of the FCC mandated broadcast flag. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broadcast_flag)

Henceforth your Tivo will automatically delete copyright flagged programs seven days after the program was recorded. It will also prevent you from writing it to a DVD or portable device.



TV when you want, where you want? Big business says: NO!

Don't think that because you have a Time Warner box you'll be spared from this sorts of restricts on your recordings. In addition to owning the second largest cable provider, Time Warner owns the copyrights on a lot of content. They have more motivation than TIVO to cripple thier DVR units with digital rights management(DRM) garbage. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_rights_management



There are people who would rather spend hours of their time copying every new episode of the Family Guy to DVD-Rs than spend $38 to purchase the season on DVD. Corporate Hollywood can't let this small bit of revenue slip thru its grubby fingers. Therefore all of us have to suffer with DRM restrictions. Rich corporations are using technology to destroy your fair use rights (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_use) for the sake of greed.

This is the future folks. Corporations are going to use this DRM technology and laws like the (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Millennium_Copyright_Act) Digital Millennium Copyright Act (written by the servile Congress they bought and paid for) to dictate what you can and can't do with their "intellectual property". So much for Freedom. Hollywood isn't happy with X billions, they demand X+n billions.

R.I.P. Tivo. You really rocked before corporate Hollywood destroyed you

[Teaser]

1. That software will be hacked

in 2 weeks flat.

[iconoclastNYC]

8. So 1% of the country can have FAIR USE?

That's still wrong. Hacking is illegal, BTW under the Digital Millenium Copyright so those 1% would then be criminals.

Recording something on TIVO to a VCR = CRIME

Recording something off the air to a a VCR = A OK.

Corporate Hollywood is taking rights away from us.

[Teaser]

48. solution

<i>That's still wrong. Hacking is illegal, BTW under the Digital Millenium Copyright so those 1% would then be criminals.</i>

Just make sure the number is a lot higher than 1%. High enough so that the social cost for throwing people in jail is too much.

[FreedomAngel82]

49. That's the thing that gets me

I record things all the time on my VCR. I record movies and the Daily show and in the 90's I used to record songs I heard on the radio I liked onto a cassette tape and would listen to it on my cassette player. So are they going to throw me in jail for that? :shrug:

[Downtown Hound]

12. Yep.

If they really think this is going to stop "pirating" they're dreaming. And I'm confused as to how someone copying a Tivo-recorded program to a DVD is illegal anyway. How is it different than recording onto your VCR, which people have been doing for years?

[iconoclastNYC]

22. The difference is the DMCA

From wikipedia:

The act criminalizes production and dissemination of technology that can circumvent measures taken to protect copyright, not merely infringement of copyright itself, and heightens the penalties for copyright infringement on the Internet. Passed on May 14, 1998 by a unanimous vote in the United States Senate and signed into law by President Bill Clinton on October 28, 1998, the DMCA amended title 17 of the US Code to extend the reach of copyright, while limiting the liability of Online Providers from copyright infringement by their users.

[Born Free]

52. There is alternative software already available

Tivo is a small player, they are under a lot of pressure from the big guys, being squeezed out by all. The good news is, if you don't need the fancy installed software and all it's features, you can use the alternative software that is readily available. Although some of this software is designed to make it easier to steal, the majority of it is designed to give you more control and in some cases more features. The big guys love to spread bad PR about TiVO because the more they can make people think TiVO isn't different than other digital recorders, the more customers they can get to buy their inferior products. Even Direct TV has been dumbing down their TiVO powered recorders to make their in house alternatives look more attractive, meanwhile TiVO keeps plugging away their programmers love what they have and are always working to improve the TiVO. As many of you know from following politics, the truth doesn't always win, some times the people with the most media control are able to spin the message to their advantage - such is the case with TiVO.

[mainegreen]

2. When will hollywood learn...

that if it outputs a signal, it CAN be recorded?

[Melodybe]

3. They just hate us being able to put all their lies on the internet

quickly and easily.

[Jawja]

4. So I can no longer

transfer my great UGA DAWG victories to tape to enjoy at later date - when I'm feeling down???

:banghead:

[crispini]

5. Seven days?

That's ridiculous. No point in buying a Tivo now. Guess it's time to get serious about that whole build-your-own DVR since there will be no alternative.

[iconoclastNYC]

11. Yes and you have to get the right tuner card

The FCC mandated that tuner cards that can decode a digital signal must respect the broadcast flag. This means the compliant tuner cards will tell your computer : "you cannot record this signal" and if you hack it with software: you are a criminal under the DCMA.

[crispini]

24. Psssht!

Of course. :eyes:

[Qibing Zero]

6. Fuck, I'm all for copyrights and all,

but in recent years with technology moving like it has been, it's gotten way out of control. Apparently it was only okay to have copies of your favorite art mediums if they were less than what the company selling them could give you. Figures.

[Pithlet]

7. Damn it. I just bought the Series II with DVD recorder.

This is fucking ridiculous.

[Pithlet]

29. Okay, after further research

Aparently the restricion is only for pay per view and video on demand. Except that the example they give is not one of those, which is confusing. I will say that I haven't had any problems with recording, keeping and transfering to DVD any of the shows I've picked so far. I hadn't attempted it with PPV or VOD, but all the shows outside of that have so far been okay.

If the restrictions are kept to PPV and VOD, then I'm not so upset. I still think it's ridiculous as people I'm sure have always recorded that stuff on their VCRs and many still do. But, I'll still be able to use my TiVo II with DVD the way I intended.

[NYCGirl]

31. They're speculating over at tivocommunity.com that this was a bug

triggered by the Tivo owner's local station.

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=259169

BTW, did you get the Humax TiVo with DVD recorder? Even though I have a standalone Panasonic DVD recorder which I've been using with my TiVo for years, I've been lusting after one of those Humax models.

[Pithlet]

We bought ours last weekend.

Our third unit. My husband did notice in our manual that TiVo would have certain recording and transferring conditions, so before we continued to take everything out of the box and set it up thus making returning it more difficult, we decided to check out that link to see if anyone was having problems. We could find no evidence that this was a huge problem, so we decided to go ahead and set it up. But, when I saw this thread with the example being a show from a broadcast network for crying out loud, that scared me. I hope you're right and that further restrictions aren't in the works. I'll reserve panic until I see evidence of it.

I've had TiVo for over four years, and love it. I hope it isn't gutted by copyright laws. The copyright laws in this country have become ridiculous.

[NYCGirl]

36. I love TiVo too. Couldn't stand to watch TV without it.

Hopefully, this will be limited to PPV and stuff like that (I guess they're really getting ready to do the downloadable films from Netflix soon).

I'm saving my pennies for the Humax DVD model — right now I can't watch anything else while I'm dubbing a DVD...and everyone I know keeps asking me to make them DVDs of everything!
:evilgrin:

[Pithlet]

39. If I had to pare down the family budget right now

TiVo would be one of the last things I'd give up. I admit that I belong to the Cult of TiVo and can never pass up an opportunity to tell others just how great it is. My parents finally gave in after I wouldn't shut up, and now they don't know how they lived without it either :)

[Ioo]

9. I thought Broadcast flag was shoot down?

I thought it was killed in court.

[iconoclastNYC]

13. That ruling will be going to SCOTUS

And we know how thats working out for civil liberties protection.

Anyway TIVO did this voluntarily to make kissy face with Hollywood. I've put all the blame on Corporate Hollywood but yes Tivo deserves some of the blame as well for being a coward.

[aquart]

10. So, if you're gone for two weeks, you don't get to see what you tivoed?

[iconoclastNYC]

16. Bingo...because Fox and Time Warner need to get paid MORE

If you miss an episode, wait for the reair or buy the DVDs.

Jerks.

[FreedomAngel82]

50. And I'm guessing

if it isn't on a dvd then too bad eh?

[NYC Liberal]

14. Note TIVO is VOLUNTARILY doing it. Complain to them.

The mandatory broadcast flag requirement instituted by the FCC was http://news.com.com/Court+says+FCCs+broadcast+flag+is+toast/2100-1030_3-5697719.html |struck down> in May:

update In a stunning victory for hardware makers and television buffs, a federal appeals court has tossed out government rules that would have outlawed many digital TV receivers and tuner cards starting July 1.

The U.S. Court of Appeals for the D.C. Circuit ruled Friday that the Federal Communications Commission did not have the authority to prohibit the manufacture of computer and video hardware that doesn't have copy protection technology known as the "broadcast flag." The regulations, which the FCC created in November 2003, had been intended to limit unauthorized Internet redistribution of over-the-air TV broadcasts.

[iconoclastNYC]

18. The were forced to do it by Hollywood

What's it in for TIVO? Nothing expect getting Hollywood of thier backs. The same reason TIVO doesn't skip commericials with a single key stroke. They fear big Hollywood.

Tivo interview, in Wired, url :
http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/12.11/view.html?pg=3


WIRED: TiVo has always been about empowering the viewer. Why change now?
ZINN: Macrovision changed its policy. So the question was, Do we want to have a Macrovision license with certain restrictions, or none at all? We decided that as long as the restrictions were limited to pay-per-view and video-on-demand, consumers would still have the choice. If they don't like a narrower window in which to view programming, they won't purchase it. That'll send a message to the content owners.

You're not legally required to have copy protection. Why not tell Macrovision to stuff it?
That was an option. But if there was no Macrovision license, we would run into a lot of copyright problems with things like remote access and "TiVo to Go" functionality. To innovate and give people more flexibility with broadcast content, we decided it was acceptable to allow content owners to apply protections to higher-value content.

What if the higher-value content is just the beginning? This could be a Trojan horse.
That would be a violent blow to consumer flexibility. You could end up in a situation where different products by different manufacturers would have different rules. I don't think we would go along with it.

With the cable companies in bed with the studios, TiVo could be the last line of defense for the DVR as we know it.
Sometimes I feel that way. We're aware of the danger, and the slippery slope. The danger is that DRM can tilt the balance of copyright so that ultimately there's no concept of fair use, because the content owners dictate what the rules are. But I think content owners are beginning to recognize that if you make things too restrictive, then consumers will find nonlegal ways to achieve what they want.

[NYCGirl]

21. They either do that or get sued out of business like what happened to

Replay TV.

[aquart]

15. So no one can save soaps?

No one can watch soap edits over and over?

They just destroyed the genre. Oops.

[NYCGirl]

33. Looks like it's only for PPV and Video on Demand stuff.

http://customersupport.tivo.com/knowbase/root/public/tv2186.htm

but the guy who it happened to might have been victim of a bug triggered by his local station.

[aquart]

17. Why doesn't the wikipedia link work?

I'm suddenly doubting the truth of this.

[iconoclastNYC]

19. I fixed the links.

DU does its HTML screwy. I replaced the < > with < > and it still didn't work right.

[NYCGirl]

20. I have a Series 2 TiVo with a separate DVD recorder, and I've never seen

this message. Had them both for about 2 and a half years

[iconoclastNYC]

25. It's a new update, and you probably haven't got it yet

It's the 7.2 software upgrade. They roll it out slowly and then you have to record a show that is flagged, and the flagging isn't in wide use. YET.

http://www.gizmodo.com/gadgets/home/index.php#tivo-os-72-aka-screw-you-launched-125480

[NYCGirl]

28. I have 7.2. Have you read this thread at tivocommunity?

Clears up a lot of stuff, as well as lots of crap from the newbie Chicken Little posters...

Seems there was only one complaint so far, and TiVoPony (who works for TiVo) is checking into the problem...

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=259169&page=1&pp=30

[aquart]

23. If it's true, would the show tape directly to a vcr or dvd

without the intervention of TIVO?

[iconoclastNYC]

26. I'm not sure.

The message says it can't be copied to a VCR or a DVD but I'm not sure how they can prevent that with today's technology. The same signal that goes from your TIVO to your VCR goes to your TV....but in the future if the FCC gets its way the connection to your TV will be digital and will have a flag that tells anything that can decode it : "You may not record this."

The new 'blueray' DVD format even has the ability to make the unit self destruct if they think you've tampered with it (hacked) to ignore these do not record signals. The new blueray units mandate that they connect to the internet for various copy control reasons.

I don't intend to buy a blue ray system for these reasons.

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[proud2BlibKansan]

30. Can you still make a VHS tape?

[ComerPerro]

32. OMG, this is fucking hilarious

I know a conservative who, despite being very very right wing, likes to pretend that he hates big businesses and corporations (although it hasn't stopped him from supporting Bush and the GOP). He's mad at the music industry and oil companies especially.

He loves his Tivo, and this will just make him go absolutely insane!

Of course, I bet anything that he will blame Clinton.

[Az]

34. The changing nature of technology

Is making the idea of intellectual property rights increasingly difficult. The tech level we are at right now could extend so many more abilities and advantages to the people but they are held back by corporations because they would interfere with more lucrative products. Thus while small start ups make trouble by introducing these products the large corps fight them in the courts.

As it stands right now the media battles are a sign of things to come. As fabrication techniques and distribution methodoligies increase we will see the problems faced by the multimedia industry repeated in harder forms of commerce. And the corporations will continue to maintain their stranglehold on the flow of technology coming to the people.

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

There is coming a time when improving the general welfare of We the People is at odds with the welfare of corporations if we have not already reached that point. Change will have to occurr. Its a question of who's favor it is in. We the People or Them the Corporations.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

41. Little people (real people) are content producers too

People love to rant against corporations, as if the copyright laws were an evil big business conspiracy. They don't think about people like me.

As an individual producer of copyrighted material, I can tell you that people do not have the right to use the "sweat of my brow", my intellectual and physical labor, to use my product, without paying me. The copyright laws are what keep me going. If people used my material the way they want to use movies and TV shows and music, then I would be out of my profession that I am trained for and experienced in. Thank goodness the copyright laws give me some tools to retain my right to make an ethical and reasonable living.

It is easy for most people to steal from an abstract corporation because it is easy to call them evil or to say they will never notice. This is the slippery slope that ends up with people justifying to themselves that it is easy for them to steal content rights from me. It is a battle for my livelihood I fight every day.

It is not simply "We the People or Them the Corporations". That is simplistic black/white crap.

[Az]

42. I agree, and disagree

As things stand now the means by which you are compensated is dependent on older distribution techniques. The fact is we have the ability currently to have distribution systems based entirely on consumer production. But this winds up with no rewards finding their way back to the content producers.

There is a miss match between our societies abilities and our economic systems.

I believe you are a content provider should be rewarded for your work and effort. I believe that the current economic system creates a system where truly superior content is penalized and inferior content is promoted. This is simply because superior art is often more difficult to understand or as corporations see it to market. Corporations naturally trend towards lowest common denominators and in the world of creative art this tends to create garbage.

The problem is going to continue to become worse. THe means of distributing your works shall increase while the industries dependent on the old means of distribution continue to try to strangle any advances. The more the war grows the worse it becomes for the content providers. And currently the corporations are winning the legal wars.

There has to be a better way. Intellectual property rights are out of control. The ability to disperse information and content to people is far outpacing corporations ability to readjust.

[Ioo]

35. I called Tivo to cancel my account...

He told me, We were told it would only be on HBO and that is it. "You are telling me that Fox has added it to King of the Hill!"

The CSR was pissed, he said that his TIVO has been rendered useless if a bunch of programs have it.

So he gave me 4 months free, told me that if it does not change in 4 months, call and cancel, he is sure other will do the same.

[NYCGirl]

37. Interesting. I have both The Sopranos and Rome on my TiVo, made a DVD

of Rome for a friend (2 episodes), and have had no problem. ???

[RevolutionStartsNow]

38. This is only PARTLY true

The broadcast "flag" component is part of the newest TiVo software, and was intended to prevent reproduction of pay-per-view, video-on-demand and other pay shows.

Regarding King of the Hill, apparently there's a bug in the software that causes the flag to show up on some broadcast shows (or maybe it's not a bug, and that's just TiVo's excuse, who knows?).

Also, this only applies to stand-alone TiVos, not DirectTV Tivos.

Here's a brief interview with the Matthew Zinn from TiVo:
http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/12.11/view.html?pg=3

[leeroysphitz]

40. Just get on USENET...

Where you can "obtain" more T.V. shows, movies, music and software than you could ever want or need. It's anonymous (for downloading) and they will NEVER find a way to hijack it...

Black man,white man: Rip the system. (50 bucks is just WAY too much for THE MUNSTERS)

[WhiteTara]

46. thanks! I just bookmarked that

:hi:

[Generator]

43. It automatically destructs after 7 days?

Ha! that's so "mission impossible." I say the VCR is looking better than ever. Plus I can still record two shows at once with two VCR's and since TIVO can't do that we said forgettaboutit. I know it's hard werk getting up to do it..but such are the trials of life in America.

[Pithlet]

45. Actually, TiVo can do that.

I know there are ways to set it up so you can record and watch something else at the same time. You can also opt to keep it for longer than 7 days. In fact, I kept an episode on my TiVo for over a year once. Nothing wrong with choosing VCR over TiVo; just thought I'd clear those miscnceptions up for anyone else that might be reading. Also does a lot of other things a VCR can't do. I thought it was frivolous to switch to TiVo, and thought VHS was just as good, but after my husband surprised me with it, I would never go back to VHS.

[LeftyMom]

51. Some TiVo units can

I can record two shows and watch a third with the DirecTv model with the dual tuner.

[Armstead]

44. It's a good argument for keeping the old VCR

Not as sexy as TiVo, but you can tape a show and not mess with all that crap.

[Born Free]

53. We'll never go back to VCR

We have had 4 dual tuner TiVO units ( orginal Dtivos series 1) for a few years, although we never had a need to do it we can record 8 shows at one time while watching another. It is all incorporated into a video switch and all is done with a click of the remote, no tapes to mess with, no need to get up and look for anything. We have some movies on the drives for long periods of time. The Tivo software is stable and easy to maintain, requires no intervention and if a drive wears out, it is relatively easy to replace. Actually, we went through vcrs a lot, they did not hold up well under much use, unlike the TiVO that runs all the time.

Actually a DVD burner using +RW disks is better than a vcr, the standalone units are realtively cheap and some are upgradable via software upgrades that give you more time choices and macrovision elimination.

Of course this is all relative, the new High Definition setups with all digital connections will no longer be as easy for the end user to control but the digital nature will give the corporations more control over what you view. The vcr will be dead by that time - already; Wal-Mart has annouced this is the last year for VCR sales.

[Flubadubya]

55. Or just get a stand-alone DVR...

I have a Panasonic DVR, no Tivo. I don't think there is anything in it that will restrict any recording. It has a 120 Gig hard drive and will record anything as far as I know. Works just like a VCR.

As for the "bells and whistles" that come with Tivo... I don't even know what they are. DVR suits my needs.

[VolcanoJen]

54. The sad little Tivo guy is killin' me, iconoclast!

I've long been a Tivo fan and have posted about it for years on these boards.

This is the suck, the absolute suck.

I've moved to Time Warner's DVR, but I retain my Tivo membership on a second TV. Not for much longer, though.

The death of Tivo, the greatest invention of all time, if you're a TV lover.

:-(

Poor, sad little Tivo guy.

[NYCGirl]

56. Here's another, less hysterical article that separates fact from fiction:

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20050914-5307.html

So now we're left wondering why "King of the Hill" had content protection applied to it four days ago, in a certain TV market. In short, it was a bug. TiVo interpreted noise for a flag, and mistakenly applied the lock to a regular old re-run. It was an error, but it also is foreshadowing the future: TiVo will obey Macrovision DRM on pay-per-view content. We've known this for almost a year, however. This isn't anything new.

That said, the takeaway from this is as follows: if you think you're going to escape the encroachment of DRM in the US, you should think again. Yes, yes, rave and rave about BeyondTV, MythTV, ReplayTV, etc (all fine products, I'm sure, but it misses the point). The cable and satellite providers are building this stuff into their boxes, and the FCC is trying to slap it onto over-the-air signals via the Broadcast Flag. The content industry is moving slowly but surely in one direction: get DRM into the source. Once it's there, whether over-the-air, from your DirecTV tuner, or your Comcast cable box, it's going to be harder than most people think to circumvent these access controls in a legal way. I'd predict that exercising your fair use rights will make you an "outlaw," but sadly, that's already the case.

So what are you going to do? Whine about TiVo, or contact your representation in government? Hit that link, yo!