So I'm a freeper now cause I hate the Clintons being in kahootz with Bush?

[Melodybe]

Give me a break, I feel like Cassandra over here, these people do not care!

They have had 5 years to speak up for America and they didn't, the Clintons instead decided to chummy up to the big evil.

Sorry if it offends you that I am happy to point fingers at corrupt politicians, DEM OR REPUB!

Where is our election reform? Where is the talk of impeachment? Where is a fucking bill that demands that we have an auditable paper trail with all voting?

Wake up!

Bill and Hill don't fucking care.

Give me Clark, Give me Dean, Give me Gore, Give me Edwards, Boxer, or Conyers, but give me a democrat cause I am totally sick of the fascist-corporatists that would rather defend Bush than the truth.

[Freedom Socialist]

1. Well...

Many of our Tories are less conservative than the Clinton and his buddies, and I find our left-wing NDP too conservative.

So...

[Melodybe]

3. I'm not far left!

I am a democrat not a corporatist!

[SammyBlue]

46. Yes, I had a lobotomy

I am a Freep-tard!

[Qibing Zero]

2. Ignoring partisan tunnel-visioners is healthy.

No need to worry about them - preach on. :)

[SaveElmer]

4. Oh please...

You are being accused of being a freeper because your irrational hatred of the Clinton's has led you to repeat the odious talking points of Richard Mellon Scaife and his ilk running the "Arkansas Projoect."

As you Progressive purists like to say "If you lie with dogs you wake up with fleas." Well that is what is happening to you.

[Melodybe]

6. Look the stuff I read on Iran Contra and Clinton implicated both

It totally eviserated Bush and implicated Clinton.

How that is a RW talking point is beyond me, especially if it makes Bushco look way worse.

[omega minimo]

44. Hey MB did your thread get deleted?

What was the info?

I agree with your call for guts and action, but I missed opening your thread a while ago and don't see it now.

:hug:

[MissB]

5. You're a freeper?

Good fuck, you had me going for SO LONG! :7 just kidding, of course.

[Mr_Spock]

7. You're entitled to your opinion

You just get nuts when people disagree with you about Clinton. I disagree with you concerning the Clinton's - and this isn't the first time I've defended them against your vitriol.

[JuniperLea]

8. It's called finesse and knowing when to say something

and knowing when to keep your cards to your chest.

You have no idea what their strategy is and you have no idea what cards they hold. You have no idea why they have acted in such a way as to appear to some that they are being chummy with the Bushites.

Sometimes keeping one's mouth shut and keeping a very close eye on the enemy is the best course of action... that's a very loose translation of I Ching advice. Old stuff; still valid.

[Melodybe]

9. If they cared they would do something by now

Hillary will never be president with Diebold.

So waiting for Hill to be the first woman president is a pipe dream.

[JuniperLea]

22. Just because you haven't seen them do anything doesn't mean they haven't

Like I said, it is very possible that they just aren't showing their cards just yet.

[Mr_Spock]

33. You can be 100% sure they haven't shown their cars yet, election time

will tell - I bet that they are more active when it really matters the most. We need to win, not love our politicians from dawn till dusk.

[JuniperLea]

38. Right. That would be too much like the cult of personality

we see with Bush.

I'm keeping the faith. So many are just now waking up to smell the "Chimppuccino". It will be time.

[Mr_Spock]

15. Your perspective speaks for me as well.

They aren't two of the most powerful people in the world because they are stupid. I don't know their strategy, but I do know that Repukes cozy up to Dems all the time just before they hit them over the head. We have to stop being so transparent and naive.

[JuniperLea]

27. Yep

Like a scorpion who kisses and bites at the same time;)

[Mr_Spock]

48. Haven't we been suckered enough yet to know?

How many times have the Dems cruised into the final weeks only to be derailed by a carefully orchestrated smear campaign? It doesn't matter nearly as much what we do right now as it matters next year around this time...

[Qibing Zero]

Any moment now,

our dems in office are gonna pull some impeachment out of their ass. Any moment now! Oh, the administration can't live past this one, no sir! They're just talking the talk right now so no one sees it coming!


Heh. What's progressive about this again?

[JuniperLea]

35. Childhood war analogy...

Far better to keep making snowballs and get them all stacked up and ready for a massive attack, than to throw one ball at a time. A slow assault only serves to numb you with the cold so much that you forget how much that first snowball stung.

[Qibing Zero]

49. Bleh,

call me what you will, but I believe we're past the point in human enlightenment where we'd still need to play around with politics and lie and lie and lie to get things done. I just can't stand for that - it's not a damn game at this point. If the past few weeks haven't shown you that playing politics is folly when people's lives are on the line, I don't know what will.

[Mr_Spock]

55. Are the Clinton's playing politics with peoples lives on the line?

I see Bill raising money for the victims.

I see Hilary getting shot down today trying to get an independent commission to investigate the governments mishandling of the Katrina emergency.

Where are they lying? How are they playing politics? How are they putting peoples lives in danger?

[deadparrot]

10. Don't feel bad. I hate it too.

I think the Clintons are, simply put, professional politicians. They do things with an eye to power and influence and damn the consequences. Clinton did a lot of good things during his time in the WH, and I'd give just about anything to give it back, but I'm far from a purist. They're far from my ideal Democratic politician, to be sure.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

11. I agree with you Melodybe and I recall being torched because I wasn't

a Kerry fan, and it's a bitch. I loved Dean from day one, and thought that Kerry blew it.

Clinton has also been far from a favorite of mine. I had expected a great liberal president and health care, and saw him too often pander to big biz, and his liberalism became center of right and left. And he disappointed the shit out of me. And now that he has become part of the Bush family he turns my stomach. That he hasn't half the balls of Al Gore to talk out burns me up. Clinton sees America being torn apart and sold to the highest bidder and he doesn't say boo.

[libertypirate]

12. Thank you.... Your not alone

[etherealtruth]

13. What do "they" say about the Clinton's (esp. Hillary) ... ?

Its either love or hate, there's no in between. I don't think you are en exception to that rule.

[xynthee]

14. I'm with you!

I don't think we help our cause by constantly defending the Republican Lites and refusing to concede that they're a HUGE part of the problem!

I personally use my disdain for the Clintons to try to bond with people I'm trying to "save". They're always so taken aback when I agree with them about the Clintons that they would feel RUDE if they didn't listen to me get in a few shots at the BFEE (and they're much more likely to think about my points later (at least I hope that's the case)).

[Melodybe]

21. Me too, it works wonders with freepers

makes them talk about liking Dean, it's fun.

[pitohui]

16. whatever

actually it is not appropriate for an ex-president to lead talk of impeachment or election reform

that way leads to endless revolution & i don't mean in the maoist sense i mean in the south american sense

an ex-president cannot take leadership in such an area

we have term limits

he served

for him to speak up & demand impeachment is the path to civil war

too many of us would step up, arm ourselves, if only to fight to put bill back in office & bring back the good times, even if against his will

bill DOES care, he very much cares, but he is not going to start a civil war and get a fuck of a lot more of us killed

there is such a thing as protocol

bill is doing the right thing

[Mr_Spock]

24. I agree with you 100%. He has honor - don't shoot him for that.

We can't have him going off half-cocked like some of the congressmen do - it would be unseemly and dangerous. And Hilary is a Senator and they too are a more statesman like arm of the government - very few Senators are wack jobs.

[Melodybe]

39. There is no honor in defending criminals

[JuniperLea]

40. There is if you get a damn good plea bargain out of the deal

And use it to put far more in jail... or to death, which is what this murdering president and his cronies deserve.

[Melodybe]

47. I'm still waiting for the Clintons to do the right thing

But Bill was playing golf with poppy and Hillary was having dinner with Rupert Murdoch, they forgot.

[Melodybe]

32. What about our voting system then?

If he cared about democracy both him and his wife would say something, but it's mums the word frim Hillary.

Hillary's election reform bill was a joke.

[Individualist]

17. You're not alone, melodybe

Ignore those who encourage lockstep thinking.

[cry baby]

18. I'm with you on this!

[hiley]

19. Well if you are a freeper for knowing the truth

about the Clintons then I am too.
Hugs

[Skidmore]

20. Mbe, you are a gal after my kidney (or however that old

expression goes). Yer not alone, girlfriend.

[stlsaxman]

23. yeah, "the Clintons" no longer have my respect. they'll have to earn it

back. but earning it back will be MUCH harder than losing it in the first place. i gave them enough rope...

they don't care about us anymore, so neither do i care about them.

you'll find no beef with me, Melodybe

[LoZoccolo]

25. No, but you're acting obnoxious and Bill's spoken against Bush* before. nt

[Mr_Spock]

37. We've been here before haven't we?

What else is new? :D

Same players, the naive angry people vs. the take it one day at a time and don't show all your cards at once people. I know we are right and so do they.

[The_Casual_Observer]

26. I was never happy with Clinton.

Stupid cave-in on NAFTA, bad judgment getting involved with the intern, and whatever else, and now this chummy shit with bush.

[cynatnite]

28. So those who don't agree with you are Clinton apologists?

I like Clinton and always will. He's still a politician and like any other politician, he still had to get elected and stay in. Name me a politician who doesn't do some ass-kissing to get elected.

Is he corrupt? No, and if you've got evidence of it, I'd like to see it. This doesn't mean I agree with everything he did while in office and I would have prefered him grow some bigger balls on some issues.

Prove to me he's corrupt.

[LittleClarkie]

30. That's all I asked for

proof.

Don't just shout it. Prove it.

[JuniperLea]

41. Right!

Shouting instead of proving might be why this person is being accused of freeperish behavior.

[cynatnite]

53. I don't have a problem with the shouting...goes on a lot

I don't have a problem with those who don't like either of the Clintons. I like Hillary, but I don't want her in 2008.

It's the line up that freaks me. GHWB, Bill Clinton, GWB, Hillary Clinton.

I don't like it one bit.

That's my gripe about Hillary in 2008...other than that I like her.

What I do have a problem with is wild speculation that gets pulled out of someone's butt with nothing to back it up.

[Mr_Spock]

52. That's all I ask for as well. Less screaming and more proof.

I'm tired of seeing Dems bashed for not being obnoxious enough.

I don't support ANY accusations against either party unless the proof is presented. I catalog the info and move on "maybe that will be proven later" I think.

What's with the personal vendetta and how is it helpful?

[LittleClarkie]

Where's your thread?

Did you get deleted?

Did you offer proof? A link? Something?

You're not a freeper. You just may have a documentation problem.

[Melodybe]

42. Yeah, the mods got rid of that one

but the book where I got my info is listed in the post below.

[LittleClarkie]

50. Thanks

I wrote down your sources.

Just so you know, they tend to lock the threads that refer to locked threads as well. But I appreciate you quoting your sources.

[flordehinojos]

29. i stand with you.

[Minstrel Boy]

31. Iran/Contra was Bush/CIA all the way, but Clinton

agreed to look the other way in return for an infusion of covert dollars into the Arkansas budget.

Starr dwelt on Lewinsky to the exclusion of Mena because in 1982 he was part of the French-Smith special staff which negotiated excusing the CIA from reporting narcotics violations.

It wasn't the Right's absurdity of "Clinton running drugs." It was VP Bush and the CIA, with Clinton providing cover. There is much to support this, though Clinton partisans will never hear it. I recommend books like Compromised, Whiteout and Boys on the Track for more info.

Clinton, Barbara's "other son," was pretty much Bush 42.

[Melodybe]

34. That is the one I read parts of!

Go read that and then call me a freeper.

[Minstrel Boy]

45. Which one?

And I hope you know I agree with you. :hi:

Here's something I wrote a while ago you may like to read:

Bill and George, Happy at Last

[Melodybe]

56. Compromised, I read parts of it while I was at my dem table

[Tiggeroshii]

36. I hope it's some part of a really elaborate conspiracy the Clinton's got

then i'll be upset. It is good to keep your friends close and your enemies closer, it may even have somethign to do with doing what they can to keep their idealogy alive. Who knows? It better be good, or else... umm..

:shrug:

[devilgrrl]

43. Too bad all the allegations have been proven false.

Read Joe Conason's "The Hunting of the President"

[Sapphire Blue]

51. Not offended in the least.

The question, "How can repubs still support bush?" is often asked. Some insight might be found by asking & answering the question "How can Dems still support Clinton, given some of the policies put into place under his administration?" What is the price of loyalty?

This country would do well to take off its political blinders and demand that both parties live up to their obligation to represent 'we the people'... and stop supporting those worthless politicians of every political stripe who fail in that obligation.

[Geek_Girl]

54. I think Bill and Hill are Players

They know how to play the game. But in the end I do think their heart is in the right place.

For them the end justifies the means.

[leeroysphitz]

57. You are?

Oh wait. I missed the question mark at the end of your thread title.
nevermind.

[Moderator]

58. Lock

From the Rules:

Constructive criticism of Democrats or the Democratic Party is permitted. When doing so, please keep in mind that most of our members come to this website in order to get a break from the constant attacks in the media against our candidates and our values. Highly inflammatory or divisive attacks that echo the tone or substance of our political opponents are not welcome here.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/forums/rules_detailed.html