I just lost it with a freeper and I feel bad that I didn't control myself.

[ncgrits]

This guy I know only casually came into my office today and after taking care of business started in on "the democrat party." The diatribe involved Satan and the "money-spending democrats" to start. (Not sure what Satan's got to do with it!) I pointed out that the Democrats are the party that brought us the government surplus.

He didn't want to talk about THAT so he started in on how people shouldn't depend on government--every man for himself. And the people in NO should have planned ahead blah blah blah. And I asked him just how a single mom with 3 kids and a diabetic mother at home, who takes public transportation to her job . . . just how is she supposed to evacuate the city? If our government can't take care of the "least of us" what the hell is is for? (I thought that "least of these" allusion might actually resonate with his fundamental Christianity. . . .)

He said that's what a communist would say. And that's not what government is for. And then I lost it and started yelling that Bush is an incompetent moron and that he needed to get out of my freakin' office!

I let him get to me and I feel bad that I actually yelled at the idiot. Somebody without a rational argument at his disposal made me lose it.

I rarely post here. But I lurk a lot and knew you folks would commiserate.

ugh.
ncgrits

[iconoclastic cat]

1. Yeah, it is tough. Try being related to people who think like that! n/t

[HEAVYHEART]

2. Well you're not alone

I certainly could relate. I've been getting into it with freepers myself for the past couple of weeks. You did the right thing. Don't back down, EVER.

[Berserker]

6. Never Ever

put up with their shit. You did the right thing, I would have done the wrong thing by helping the bastard out of my office.

[raccoon]

12. You did the right thing.

Is this man a co-worker? If so, you could speak to somebody higher-up about him. You don't have to listen to that crap if you don't want to.

[Child_Of_Isis]

3. He said that's what a communist would say.

Any time a freep brings up the "commie" word, I always remind them that China pretty much holds the mortgage to our country and how do they feel about that? I usually only get a stutter in return.

[ncgrits]

7. That's a good one. . . .

I'll have to remember that. I got so pissed off that I couldn't summon up any of my comeback lines.

He really got under my skin. He's African American and I know it shouldn't make a difference, but hearing a black man spout that crap seems even worse. He is a lower income black man and he is supporting people who do not have his best interests at heart. When I'm not pissed off, it makes me really sad.

[Child_Of_Isis]

14. Remember to include

that it was their president who mortgaged our country....to the "commies"

[skypilot]

40. Oh, Jesus.

I'm black and you're right, it shouldn't make a difference but it does still give me pause when a black person talks that shit. If he'd been a tourist stuck in New Orleans after Katrina he might have gotten a real eye-opener. But then again, he might not have. He sounds pretty damned thick.

[mzteris]

4. you held it together

longer than I would have.........

When he talked about how "people shouldn't depend on government--every man for himself" - you should have asked him if he sent his tax cut back........

[1932]

5. If you need to read some books that can arm you with rational

arguments with people like that, I suggest God's Politics, Moral Politics, Confessions of and Economic Hit Man, The Health of Nations and Development as Freedom.

It's better to exhaust all the arguments and let them start the yelling.

[MN ChimpH8R]

37. Robert Reich's "Reason"

is another good one for refuting Repuke slogans.

[chalky]

8. The "least of us" is "what a communist would say"???? Ohhhhkayyyy....

So much for reaching his "Christian" side. The dude obviously doesn't have one.

[interupt]

9. It happens mate

You can be completely in control and someone out to derail your proposal can ask or make a comment that is so silly on the surface, but completely throws you and you lose it.

You win some you lose some, and you break even some. Dont let it get to you. In your heart you know this guy was winding you up for a reaction, and he got it. How about all the times you can happily claim victory huh?

[PATRICK]

10. Bent hnau

C.S. Lewis writes of the arrival of one evil man on an innocent planet leaving a pathetic trial of solitary destruction bent on taking down everything. No one barely gets through to any doubt or shred of humanity, though that is mostly what is tried for a long time.

If your friend read the book he would only remeber the guy was an atheist and scientist.

They need a tainted but decent human to stop him. In our world it really is a daunting task and we are not 100% up to it. The other side must pretend to be 100% in the right to put off reality. What percent must we be to simply survive their choices?

[MuseRider]

11. I find that

if I get really angry I am unable to be rational. This sounds like he blindsided you. I tell them that if they want to have a discussion I would be happy to do that but that attacks out of the blue are not welcome. You were at work? Ask him to call after work or go out for a beer and have a discussion. The minute they start yelling over you and not allowing you to talk or not listening I call them on that and leave. There is no point if they will not listen or even think about what you said. Classic bully in the mode of Hannity. It is bullshit and they are baiting you. Rarely will you ever find one of them to take you up on the offer to discuss. They just want to yell at you, don't waste your time.

[Skidmore]

13. I never give peopl like this a hypothetical about some

third party. I make it personal to them. "What type of help would you want for yourself, a parent, a child should you find __________ in similar dire straits? There for the grace of God go you or any member of your family."

Don't feel bad about your response to him. He'd likely be among the first asking for help.

[pansypoo53219]

15. seeing that democrats have NO POWER

and the relemmingcans have all the power, how are THEY spending the money? how aboiut the BILLIONS that have been LOST in georgie's iWaq? remindd him that's HIS money.

and WHERE'S OSAMA???

[Jeanette in FL]

16. I always ask them "What do you know about PNAC"

You usually get the deer in headlights look. If they say "Nothing", then I say well then that is the end of this conversation.

[zanne]

17. Katrina and my racist brother.

When Katrina hit, my brother and his wife (both like-minded) were staying with us. (Actually it's been five months, but who's counting?) I cautioned myself before they arrived that I shouldn't ever, ever, ever react to any political statements they make, especially my brother, who will never admit he's a racist. I was good about it for four months, three weeks and two days. It practically killed me, but I actually managed to hold it all in. Then Katrina hit, and the first images to appear on TV of black people wading through waist-high water appeared. It took my brother about two seconds to say "Those people just don't know how to take care of themselves". I lost it. I really, really lost it like I've never lost it before; everything that I had wanted to say for almost five months came out of me like a dam bursting.
I think everyone on this board understands exactly what you went through with the freeper, and I'm sure you weren't the only one who "lost it". Please don't feel bad. Maybe we should have a contest here and call it "Who can sit on their hands the longest"? Anyway, I hope the rest of your day is good. And wish me luck with my brother. He'll be here for another two weeks!

[Straight Shooter]

24. Any time I hear the phrase "those people" ...

... I know some sort of bigoted or judgmental statement will follow. *sigh*

[ncgrits]

27. Man, you may win the prize for tongue-biting!

I know I wouldn't have lasted nearly 5 months!

I'm with you though, when he started in on how it's the victims' fault they didn't help themselves, it lit my fuse! And, although it shouldn't make a difference, this guy is black--which made it doubly hard to take.

Anyway, thanks zanne (and all who have posted), I feel better just venting about it. Not big on confrontation!

[RagingInMiami]

35. Dems have been sitting on their hands way too long

From the ones in office to the ones at the grassroots levels. It's time to stop.

[quisp]

18. I'm with you...

I'm usually able to rationally discuss issues and so on, but you reach a point that it doesn't get through and we are living in desperate time.

I hope the freep got the message.

[jobycom]

19. Man, if I can stop before they wind up in intensive care I feel restrained

Especially now over New Orleans, which is highly personal to me. Even my spouse, who normally wants everyone to like her and rarely stands for anything launched into her sister-in-law for defending Bush over New Orleans.

They have no consciences, no souls. It's hard to not feel anger watching someone who looks like the should be a human but who can't act like one.

[whatever4]

20. Sorry about that, it feels lousy, moral support here

It's so hard to argue after a while, isn't it? The nonsense reasoning is impossible to follow.

He thinks people should not depend on their government? Well, does that mean that we pay taxes without being represented, if the American people WANT, strongly WANT to take care of our people? To say, if I, or YOU, want our government to use our resources to ensure no one starves, freezes, drowns or suffers in natural disasters, he believes this ideal is unwarranted, unreasonable, too costly...and we shouldn't want it in the first place?

But...what matters more?? What matters more than thousands of people being so badly damaged?? I can't think of anything worse.

It's not just the victims that want it. It's US that want it, and it's not a friggin hand out, we WANT those people to be okay and we think they DESERVE to be okay. Not just them. All of us.

Or does he not believe in nursing homes? The elderly that live in them?? Further, the folks that couldn't get out, it was worth a death penalty for being poor? Not having a car?

THEY shouldn't depend on the government to help them?? Well what about ME, what about us, what about what WE want??? What about what I want, and you want? WE are the people and WE make the government, and WE WANT to help them...so can we the American people not depend on our government in ANY way either??

Not to help us. Not to represent our wishes. Not to use our resources wisely. Not to provide to the people what WE believe should be provided?? Even when they're DYING???!!!!!!!!!!

Have to ask him which government is his. MY government should do what I want it to do. Does his operate under the same constraints, or is that "of the people, by the people, for the people" a problem now?

Funny; he believes people should not depend on their government, which as a libertarian I can understand, but not as he applies it. We believe people can do better for themselves than a government will typically "provide" for them, and so, never ever want to see people held down to lower levels by that system. A system of stabilty...a system where everyone "stays in their place" is what we fear, what we hate. But damn, in a disaster, a community pulls together, and our government absolutely MUST be a proactive part of that. Anything else does not serve us.

Funny too, because if the people should not depend on the government, then it should follow that the government better get used to not "depending" on the people, if it sees little worth in caring for them. Disenfranchise enough of them, and there won't BE a tax base to depend ON, won't be any funds if the people can't work or even live. You can't HAVE your nice vacation in wild NO if you don't even recognize the poor folks that work to provide that "fun".

Yeah, we like the fun times in NO, we LOVE New Orleans, vacationers depended on the poor and those dirt cheap lifestyle of the people there, but we don't care about the people when they're dying? Insane and selfish. Cannibalistic.

Depend on the government? Hardly; the government failed to meet it's most basic contractual obligations to our people, and we damn sure should have been able to depend on that.

If, for some crazy reason, he wants to believe that our federal government had no responsibility in this disaster to save our people, then I submit they should have never TAKEN the taxes and resources and should have never committed the FRAUD in saying they WOULD take care of the people.

Perhaps had the people realized how little effort and money would be expended on their behalf, they would never have depended on it in the first place. For those who, as he implies, had any kind of a CHOICE in the matter.

Perhaps if our government hadn't lied, people wouldn't have died, and that's just all there is to it. At the very least, they would have been more aware of the dangers they faced. They thought all they had to do was make it thought the hurricane, and I, for one, thought that too.

Turns out the hurricane was the least of their worries, but I fail to see how they could have anticipated that, if the WH itself sees fit to say they "didn't see it coming?" That's what I want to scream at people sometimes; they survived the hurricane damnit! We all thought that was enough, to get through that hurricane. No one thought they'd leave people in flood, if the levees broke. NO ONE thought that would happen. How could we have? In our nation, transport was unavaliable? Hardly. They were left, and not a one of us thought that would happen.

If they'd been the least bit honest about what the survivors could expect, maybe they could have faced the disaster better, more prepared. At the least, at the VERY least, if they'd been honest, those poor people would not have been left hopeless as well as helpless. Demoralized in a rich nation that let them die, needlessly. At least they'd have know that true danger they faced, which was that they were on their own. They had no idea, and I can hardly see how THEY can be blamed for it. How could they have known?? No one knew how little they would be helped by this farce of a government. We were all shocked, and still are.

Hope any of that helped at all.

[ncgrits]

28. What is government for . . .

This fellow is a black, lower-middle class, fundamentalist "Christian" who (I think) fancies himself as a Libertarian only to the degree that he doesn't want to pay his taxes.

He holds that we are all on our own (with a little help from Jesus, I reckon!) and those folks in NO "should have planned ahead."

When I called my husband and told him about the whole thing, he reminded me that we gave this guy $500 a couple of years ago when he nearly lost his house. He said that maybe we should ask for it back now--hell, he should have planned ahead for the possibility he couldn't make his mortgage payment, huh?

Still feelin' pissed off some, but you guys have made me feel much better about it.

Thanks.

[whatever4]

29. Right with you on that

I'm as libertarian as the next libertarian, but I don't agree with him. Feel free to throw that back at him too ;)

No, we don't want insane government controls, we don't want our nation to believe it lives on "hand-outs", as if we are all beggars and should STAY that way. We believe everyone should believe they can strive for better, and that it is their right to do so, their god-given right to try to achieve a better condition if they so choose. No one gets to say how much you "can have", only how much they will give you. We fear those who want to say "how much we can have", because when politicians decide those things, we wind up with bare minimum social security checks, with income limits, and very, VERY poor elderly, they're just one example.

In the end, we want representational constitutional government PERIOD.

Libertarians believe in the good will and intentions of the populace more than they believe in those ideals in politics, and in looking at Katrina, it's easy to see why. Government with all the resources, money and authority that not only does not serve the people, but by it's actions and lack of action, actively hurts the people. Libertarians believe governments in general tend to attract power, people who want power over other people, and without careful maintenance, become too large, greedy, and corrupt.

However, none of those ideals justified withholding our resources from our people in this disaster, none of it justified their blatant disregard for all the responsibility that was accepted (complete with our hard-earned tax dollars) but then failed to meet them, by even the most meager of measures (savng human lives), and NO ONE that tried to go down there to help those people should have been TURNED AWAY by those government authorities who were, themselves, unable to help. Power plays and shared authority. That is where government is heartless, and hurts people. Sick in their control, after Katrina they meet every negative expectation of "government help" we fear. Yes, it's a libertarian concern, abuse of government power, and THIS tragedy can be seen as stemming from bad government.

But it was bad because it didn't represent us. Period. Matters not what political party one believes in; these people (and I use the term losely) do not follow any ideals of a viable political party in our nation. Not reps, not dems, not libs, for themselves only - wealthy. They were the actions of a disdainful government. Complete disregard for the welfare of the citizens. That isn't anything we ever voted for. It IS what we fear in government; rob us blind, then keep all the money. Even when people are dying.

I feel so tentative discussing this here, because I know how prevalent other ideas are here, and I'm nothing close to a good representative of libertarian ideas to counter. I'm still learning myself. But when I hear about libertarians saying stuff like that, how those poor souls had no RIGHT to even expect assistance, I have to try to say something. THIS libertarian does not agree.

[skypilot]

42. WAIT A MINUTE!!!!

This thread gets more and more interesting the further into it I get.

You loaned this asshole $500.00 A COUPLE YEARS AGO and he hasn't "planned ahead" enough to pay you back by now? WTF?!

[ncgrits]

46. We gave him (not loaned) the money because. . .

he needed it. But now we kind of wish we hadn't. My husband was saying maybe next time this guy should plan ahead for when he might need money!

We won't ask him to repay it; it was a gift to help the guy out. But part of us wants to say something about it, just to drive home a point--you're on your own, pal.

(Sorry for the slow response--just got home and online.)

[hwmnbn]

21. ncgrits, you did fine....

He realizes he doesn't have a rational argument, yet he tries to "debate" you anyway. All he was doing was wasting your time.

IMO you could have thrown him out at the first hint of RW rhetoric. I commend your restraint.

[Patiod]

22. Tell him Jesus was a big Commie and refer him to Matthew 25

Feeding the hungry? Clothing the naked? Visiting prisonors? Sounds like Communism to me!!!

[mopinko]

23. i try to never shut up. it keeps the freeps away

i always wear buttons, my van is covered with supersize bumperstickers, it scares the freepers away.
that said, a case of tile ended up left on the counter because i had butted into a discussion between two clerks, and slammed the guy who was playing the blame game--> nagin, blanco. i told him that was a lie, gave him the facts, told him about hurricane pam, and told him to get the latest newsweek. i said it was a national disgrace, and he did agree that it was wrong. he was not nasty, but he was shook up. at least the tile got overlooked altogether, and i didn't pay for it, then leave it on the counter.

[movie_girl99]

25. that stinks...

it's so hard not to go off on them sometimes because they are so fucking arrogant and stupid. SOmetimes i find it best to just reply with one of these "bummer, too bad, that sucks man." To me it's a lost cause and gets my blood pressure up for what? They will never change the way they think...not from anything I say because i'm a damned liberal who listens to "Scare America". I find it easier to just let it go.

[abluelady]

26. Don't Worry About It

You are right! I recently told someone they were Republican because they looked as people as losers. A hand up is not a hand out. You know those who complain about anything are the first to eat their words when they are affected. It is pure selfishness on the Repugs part. It is much nicer to be a Dem!

[Hardrada]

30. I used to tell Reaganites to leave my business

Years ago. I felt I had a right since they were staining the bright radiance of eternity not to mention affecting my work by pissing me off. I treated them as I did Xian leafleters and solicitors. Thank heavens my biz is online now!

[OneGrassRoot]

31. You're not alone....I had a complete hissy fit and a breakdown

last week with my ex-husband (* supporter). He was quietly and logically trying to defend * and the lack of response to Katrina, and I completely freaked, jumped up and screamed, "Get out of my house. If you support this bunch you have blood on your hands. They're criminals and anyone who supports them are criminals in my eyes!!!!"

He looked at me like I'd lost my mind, but that's what this bunch has driven me to.....they've scared the crap out of me since day one and hopefully, finally, more fence-sitters are seeing why we've been so alarmed.

[Lars39]

32. Don't feel bad at all! He was on your turf, didn't know you well,

and decided he was going to "educate" you. In short, he is a fool, and deserved whatever tongue lashing you gave him.

[Seabiscuit]

33. Just thinking about engaging a freeper makes my blood boil.

So I just ignore them. If they say something and I'm in a situation where I have to respond I just change the subject or leave the area. Arguing with them is like beating your head against a wall - you can't expect rational discourse.

Occasionally I'll give them a really disapproving/disgusted look, but nothing verbal.

[RagingInMiami]

34. Good job

Every time a freeper calls you a commie, call him a fascist. That always shuts them up.

[samsingh]

36. i don't think you should feel bad

[northzax]

38. point out that the people proposing hundreds of billions

in new spending over Katrina are currently located at 1600 Pennsylvania Ave, NW.

Democrats have been the minority party in the house and senate for almost all of the last decade and a half. Republicans have held the white house for 17 of the last 25 years.

if the country is in trouble, it's the fault of the people running it, and for the most part, those people are republicans. Q.E.D.

[skypilot]

39. Rugged individualism, blah, blah, blah...

...pull yourself up by your bootstraps, blah, blah, blah...communism, blah, blah...socialism, blah, blah... tax and spend liberals, blah, blah, blah, fucking blah...

I swear to God if these neocon pricks ever had an original thought it would die of loneliness. This is what those children in "Village of the Damned" would sound like it they grew up conservative in America. They all seem to share the same brain and the same base of "knowledge". After talking to a guy like that you don't even have to bother talking to any of the rest of them. Everything he said was pretty much, in a nutshell, what they all seem to think.

[GreenPartyVoter]

41. I hate fake Christians like that. Jesus never walked past needy peopl

saying that had to do for themselves. He stopped to see what needed to be done.

------------------------------------------------------
URGENT yet easy! Hold the government accountable for Katrina's aftermath
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4736062

Save the gulf, then save the nation! http://www.geocities.com/greenpartyvoter/electionreform.htm

[Zinfandel]

43. Read the post on this forum now, and see how it can be done...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=4778329&mesg_id=4778329

[Strelnikov_]

44. Ask Him If He Is Planning Ahead For When We Run Out Of Natural Gas

this winter.

Will he stay in his freezing house with is family, in lieu of going to a warming shelter, bacause it is "every man for himself".

[tsuki]

45. I lost it with my right wing county email site. All those retired

colonels of the most socialist system in America shilling for the corporations. They posted Jack Kelly's lies, I marched over to media matters and posted the rebuttal. I basically called them all traitors, racists, told them to listen to American News, and turn off Rupert/Saudi network. And if they were the premier military force in the world, where the Hell was Osama? And get me off their list.

I felt bad about it for about an hour. Then, I thought about everytime that I had tried to bring up problems, like the courts okaying naming American citizens "enemy combatants" and suspending the Constitution. They are closing down the VA. Our boys are not being supported when they return. All I ever got was you're what's wrong with America. Bush is God. The Republican are real Patriots.

I am out of patience. After Cindy Sheehan and Katrina, we are all out of patience. Blessed are the meek, but I feel like kicking *.

See ya in DC

[ncgrits]

47. you betcha! see you there! n/t

[Opusnone]

48. As soon as the word COMMUNIST is said, you've won

They have lost control.
If they say the word SOCIALIST, you've also won.
If they mention anything about Lenin or Stalin or Trotsky, or Chavez for that matter, you've also won.

When they start name calling they've lost.