Talking to my Southern Baptist mother on her birthday...

[jab105]

Usually when my mom and I talk, its about nothing...literally...hows the weather? Oh, spiffy here, thats great...yeah...hows the dog/? Oh, love th dog, he's cute...random story about the dog...hows the car?

We basically have, and has always had that "perfect" relationship, looks perfect to the outside world, but it full of absolutely nothing...

Basically, what it comes down to, is that shes a fundamentalist Christian, and no matter what I do or say, she believes that the Democrats are all going to hell, and that I'm not a Christian because I'm not a Republican...I do admit that I've strayed from the fundamentalist Christian church, but geesh!

I have never ever addressed politics with her, even though for a number of years I've been getting progressively more interested in politics...but, today I did(after I said happy birthday and talked about nothing for a while)...only because I'm so tired about talking about nothing...I'm tired of not saying anything that matters because then you maintain the happy vaccuum of knowing nothing about the other person...

So, it started...

Remember, she is fundamentalist, southern baptist Christian...

First I talked about working with Big Brother Big Sisters...I do it about 10 hours a week...and I was talking about the kids, how they weren't as lucky as I was growing up...and, of course she agreed...then it got into how the parents work long and hard, but live practiaclly on minimum wage...again, she agreed...

Which then led into a living wage, how it wasnt fair that this woman was working 50 hours a week and couldnt even keep the phone on half the time cause she was only making $6 an hour...she offered the excuse when this came up that she didn't really care much about politics because she was old, and she "wouldn't be around much longer"...

I then mentioned that I plan to be around for a lot longer, and I plan to have children one day, which would be around a lot longer so she should care...then she said...

Well, the rapture will happen soon, so I wont have to worry about it...

Ok, what kind of logic is that, the rapture will happen soon, so forget about the world? This makes no sense...

Anyways, she said that she will just vote Republican because they dont kill people...now, by this, she was referring to abortion, my mother is vehmently anti-abortion, becuase her mother (not the nicest person) used to tell her that she would have aborted her if she could have (probably messes with a persons mind)...I tread very lightly around that subject...

So, I say, well, what about the people who have the baby, if 40% of the people living in poverty are children, and the mothers who have those children are "being responsible", then shouldn't society have a right to give something to those children, if the mothers are doing everything in their power to support their children? (I was trying to bring the topic back to a "living wage" which I think would really help with a lot of societies problems)...but no...

Then comes the craziest thing, she says, well, if they cant take care of the kid, they should give the kid up for adoption...the example she gives is that when my parents had me, they put a lot of time and savings into it...

Well, thats great, but how can we legislate who a child should be with or not...I ask if Elian Gonzales should have been returned to his father, even though we (the US) could have given him a "better" live here, she agrees that he should...

Well, isn't that the same thing? Shouldn't a single mother who works as hard as she can have the right to keep her kid even if other more "wealthy" people could take "better" (notice the quotes) care of them...

Well, she says its not the same thing...I go on a bring up the whole Bush administration killed 10s of thousands of people with this war, and she says its not the same thing...

The hypocrisy is blowing my mind...I feel like banging my head against a wall, how is killing "born" people a good thing, but unborn an unforgivable sin...how is the Christian thing that its easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle then a rich man to see the kingdom of heaven, but when a poor single mother needs help, its not up to us to take care of them (personal responsibility matra inserted here)...

I dont understand this, I respect my parents so much, but how can they be this blind and hard headed about something that is SO important...

My father is even worse, he said that we should just kill all the muslims...

GAACK!

[madmax]

1. You're wasting your time

She's already set in her ways and her mind is shut. My brother in law is just like your Mom.

[jab105]

6. Its so hard for me to think that way...

Because when I was growing up, she always told me to be the opposite...

Remember, shes fundamentalist Christian, always trying to "open people up" to the Christian mindset...she wanted THEM to open their minds...

I guess I never learned that we were supposed to close them once we were indoctrinated sufficiently...GEESH!!

[madmax]

9. You're a good person, jab

Working with Big Brother/Sister, caring about women and minimum wages. Use your talent where it will do the most good.

:loveya:

[jab105]

23. My dad got on me for that one...

I sell antiques on ebay and I dont have to work, cause rich people buy them...so since selling antiques for more than I bought them for doesnt make me feel "good" I do the BBBS thing...which does make me feel good...

He thinks I should be working in a job that uses my education, makes me miserable, and yet at the same time makes me rich...

Who'da thunk it:)

[loudnclear]

41. They are just plain racist. Forget it!

You will never change their minds. A pure racist is society's most ignorant, dangerous and lethal WMD.

[alcuno]

2. Yikes. We're Catholic and I've moved my mother off the

abortion issue by reminding her that the Republicans have held the presidency for 15 of the last 23 years and abortion still exists. The Republicans will always keep it on the table so they can use it as an election issue.

[jab105]

7. But, abortion is about the judiciary...

She thinks that Bush would support a Christian God-fearing judge that would overturn Roe. V. Wade...

I agree, I think abortion is a non-issue on both sides used to yank the chain of the people who vote on one issue...

But she thinks that when O'Conner retires and another comes in, that it will be overturned...thats certainly what the church would have you belive......

[madmax]

11. I have no doubt about that

Channel surfing during the 2000 campaign I caught Pat Robertson telling his flock to pray for a bush win because the 'big prize' was the USSC - not the WH but, the court. :mad:

[qanda]

3. You may be interested in Chuck Baldwin

He is a Christian, very conservative, but also very anti-Bush*. Here's part of an article from his site:

Why Do Conservatives Continue To Support The Republican Party?
By Chuck Baldwin

August 1, 2003

It should be obvious to every rational person that the Republican Party has totally lost whatever conservative moorings it had. Since seizing control of the federal government and many state governments, Republicans have consistently promoted bigger and bigger government, have betrayed virtually every conservative cause, and have broken virtually every conservative promise. Even columnist George Will observed that under President Bush, conservatism has developed "an identity crisis." However, the greater crisis is the willingness of grassroots conservatives to continue to support such a party.

(more)

http://www.chuckbaldwinlive.com/bush1aug03.html

http://www.chuckbaldwinlive.com/bushrecord.html (Link to more articles from Chuck Baldwin)

Now, I know you will not agree with his position on most issues, but he gets to the heart of why Bush* is far from good for America. I hope this helps you talk to your mom.

[jab105]

14. never heard of him...

reading the links now...

[jab105]

16. I'm not sure if she knows enough about the Republican party...

To respond to that...

She would support democratic causes (at least I have to insist that she would because I cant believe that she wouldnt)...

She just has no way to defend conservative positions, she supports them because of the abortion issue, and nods her way through the rest...

[Maple]

4. It's a black and white

view of the world...no grey...no moral questions...very clear cut.

Some people need that in order to survive.

[tedoll78]

5. What I love to do with my Republican family re: abortion -

I tell them this:

"it's be over 30 years since Roe v Wade was decided, and every Republican president or nominee has pledged to appoint judges that will reverse this ruling. Since then, of the 9 judges sitting on the Supreme Court, 7 are Republican-appointed. And yet Roe still stands as the law of the land. You've been snookered. You've been used. They know that you're going to show-up to the polls like a good little voter, and as long as you do, they'll get to stay in power and do nothing for your goal. How do you like that?"

"And by the way: even if Roe is overturned, abortion will still be legal. Sure, maybe 30 states will place limits on it afterward, but there will always be those 20 or so states where girls will go for their abortions. They'll take day trips for their abortions, rather than a drive to the city. Face it.. you're fighting a lost battle. An amendment is the only answer, and you'll never get one. Sorry."

That always gets them (especially the Supreme Court nominee part). Because they know it's the truth.

[jab105]

10. I didnt know that?!?!

7 are Republican appointed? Really?

How was Roe V Wade decided out of the 9, how many for it how many against?

I'm bookmarking this one you put that very well...

PS-Wasnt Bush (41) pro-choice before he changed to pro-life to become Ronnies running mate?

[tedoll78]

24. Yup!

1: Rehnquist was appointed by Nixon.
2: Stevens was appointed by Ford.
No one was appointed by Carter!
3,4,5: O'Connor, Kennedy, and Scalia were appointed by Reagan.
6,7: Souter and Thomas were appointed by Bush I.
8,9: Ginsburg and Breyer were appointed by Clinton.

I can't remember what the Roe breakdown is on the current court. It's somewhere around 5-4 or 6-3 in favor of upholding.

[jab105]

25. Wow...for some reason I always picture them as being there forever...

So...Stevens, Souter, Ginsburg, and Breyer are the more liberal...

Kennedy and O'Connor are swing (O'Connor more so on abortion)...

And then Renquist, Scalia, Thomas are the conservative ones...

I think it is 5-4 on it, so the O'Connor changed to a conservative REpublican (and Bush would be sure to avoid Bush(41)'s Souter "mistake") would change it over....

[Merlin]

29. Excellent!

I saved it.

[AnnabelLee]

8. My blood pressure was rising just reading your post

You could have been describing a conversation with my mother, & she's an Episcopalian! The only difference is that my mother doesn't talk openly of the rapture...I think she realizes on a certain level how nutty it sounds.

[jab105]

13. My mother eats sleeps and breathes the rapture...

1988 was a big year for rapture predicters...I was in 6th grade, and I seriously thought that this was the end, I would have nightmares about how all these people were going to be left on earth for the tribulation, and hell...fun fun...

My mom's favorite Bible guy is Hal Lindsey, who has been predicting (and profitting) on the rapture predictions for the last thirty years...

My dads latest "present" to me was Lindsey's book "The Everlasting Hatred: The Roots of Jihad"...hate filled spewing forth...and hey, you can even look him up on armageddon books...

http://www.armageddonbooks.com/190hatred.html

Glad to know I'm not alone...it was a three hour conversation between the time I talked to my mom and dad...and am just so frustrated...not necessarily because they have different views, that would be fine, but because they cant back up the reason for the views, and while claiming the moral highground, they are a model of hypocrisy!

[AnnabelLee]

18. I sympathize with you

Each of us knows what the other goes through.:hug:

[jab105]

20. Thanks!!

:hug:

[neebob]

27. Oh, my gosh

I sat and listened to Hal Lindsey, whom I had never seen, for about half an hour yesterday. I couldn't believe it. My mother would probably agree with him, if only he were Mormon. And speaking of hypocritical books, she said she was going to buy "Who's Looking Out for You?" and send it to me when she's done reading it. Sadly, no, you are not alone.

[Classical_Liberal]

35. You need to debunk Lindsey

There are many websites that do this. http://www.google.com/search?q=Hal+Lindsey+dispensationalism&sourceid=opera&num=0&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8 His predictions are way off, and have been proven wrong over and over. You also can't argue logic with a fundamentalist. You have to prove things biblically. They will believe there is a pink elephant in the sky if they believe it is written in the bible. Ask her where the term rapture is mentioned in the bible? The bible actually says that no one can predict the end of the world. In one part of the bible Jesus when asked to predict the endtimes said, "No one but my father knows when that day will be." In another part he says, "It will come like a theif in the night." If no one can predict it, how can Hal Lindsey? It is also very clear that the endtimes in no way justifies callous attitudes toward the poor. Just look at the final judgement where Jesus is seperating the sheep from the goats. He says "You fed me when I was hungry. You clothed me when naked. You didn't feed me when I was hungry. You didn't cloth me when I was naked. I don't know you." This means Jesus takes the way we treat the poor personally. James clearly states that faith is proved by works. We could go on and on about what the bible says about the poor. It doesn't mention abortion in any chapter. http://www.ncccusa.org/poverty/biblespeaks.html

[jab105]

37. In honor of my 700th post...

I think I'll call it a night, thanks for letting me vent:)

THIS will definitely come in handy...tomorrow, my poor mother will get an email...cause I dont want to get any more of those books for Christmas...

Had mistakenly read it because I didnt think they would give me such hate, boy was I wrong!!

[Classical_Liberal]

32. What kind of episcopalian believes in rapture?

?

[AP]

12. If I were you, I'd seriously consider taking everything you wrote here and

put it in a letter and send it to your parents and tell them how much it would mean to you if they would consider the issues a little more, and that you find it distressing that they feal this way because...etc...etc...etc.

It might make a difference.

[Solly Mack]

15. Just love them

Nothing profound here...but you will never change them so you have to change how you react to them.

It's either that or wait for a miracle...or continue to frustrate yourself with the question "why?"

[jab105]

19. But that puts us back to talking about nothing...

this was my attempt to make the relationship go deeper than that...

[Solly Mack]

21. When I first read your post

all I wanted to do was hug you. I don't mean to get so personal, but your hurt was evident.

I could tell you that sharing ideologies doesn't always make for intimacy or for deeper bonds but it seemed such a moot thing to say.
My heart wanted to hug you so I thought in terms of unconditional love.

[jab105]

22. thanks:)

:hug:

[sandnsea]

17. "They had to take the baby"

How many of you here remember those words from the 60's and before? An aunt or friend of the family had complications and 'they had to take the baby'.

Well what in the world do our mothers think that meant??? It was a sad tragedy, not something to attack women over. 'Partial-birth abortion' is actually a way to 'take the baby' that doesn't harm the mother as much.

And what about miscarriages in the bathroom (need I go further)? Were fetuses really sacred years ago?

Maybe we just need to remind our moms of the way things REALLY used to be and hopefully they'd wake up a little bit.

[neebob]

26. I feel your pain

My mother is a Utah Mormon. I can't talk about anything of substance with her, either, and lately we can't even talk about the fluffy nothingness without her saying something that I either have to let slide or spend another hour or two in the same old argument ending in "Well, everything is unfolding as it should" and "President Hinckley says blah blah blah" and "This has all been foretold" and "You'll see" and "I'll pray for you." So, see, I really do feel your pain.

Actually, there are two same-old arguments. This evening we had the other one that doesn't start with politics and focuses on a personal matter. I won't bore you with the details; suffice it to say it's some serious dysfunctional-family stuff. I had already passed on an hour's worth of ridiculous statements that would have led to everything unfolding as it should.

For example, my mom mentioned her cable had been out since yesterday and she hadn't read the paper and didn't know what was going on (as if the Deseret News would tell her). When I said Israel had bombed what they said was a terrorist training camp in Syria, she said, "Good!" Then when I told her about Roy Horn and expressed my opinion of his show - which has to do with animal rights and the obscene amount of money Sigfried and Roy have made off their act - my mother added, "And they're fruitcakes!" Which led to a brief exchange about the homos taking over the world (read: being on TV) and censorship vs. the right to change the channel. (My mother donates to the Parents' Television Council.) I was giving myself big points for not veering off into politics and Armageddon.

Then she said she just recently found out her friend's husband, who had committed suicide and whom she had almost dated but ended up with his brother instead, had been molested by his father. This is a huge suprise to my mother. She didn't think she knew anyone that had happened to, blah blah blah, and on to one of our family secrets, which led to Ted Bundy (because one of the parties to the secret had known him), which prompted a comment from me that brought on the thing that led to the icky personal matter.

Well, it pissed me off more than usual, because I'd recently read a book that made me realize the religion I'd merely stopped believing 25 years ago really is a cult. I found myself feeling angry at having been subjected to it. It wasn't an issue until I read this book, and here's my mother - who fell for the most successful scam in history - questioning my judgment and telling me I'm wrong about this, that, and the other thing. Somehow I managed to avoid saying that. I didn't bring up the book, and I don't plan to.

But now I'm sitting here going okay, my mother is stupid. It wouldn't surprise me if she ends up donating her estate to the LDS Church and/or the Republican Party.

[jab105]

28. You have significantly more talk in there than I do...

I live about 5 hours away, and my mom lets me talk (i.e. doesnt really participate in the conversation much)...

I can just picture it...ok, I'm talking...she'll go clean the microwave, play with the dog...I stop talking, she hears the last thing I said, and responds (missing everything that led up to it)...so I feel like I have to repeat myself...over and over...

I have NEVER done it to this extent before, the last time I came close was during the Florida Election circus of 2000 (she lives in Broward county which was where a lot of it took place)...I suually just hold my tongue because I know that she wants to talk about nothing...

I wish that she would even participate in the conversation to that extent, but I'm not even there yet...I've emailed her about it before, I've begged her to go to: http://www.liberalslikechrist.org but she doesnt go there, she thanks me for the link, explains that she just doesnt have the time, and smiles in blissful ignorance, and talks about nothing again...

Funny thing is that for some reason, growing up, I could swear that she taught me to be OPEN to new things, maybe I just didnt learn that I should close up once the church proclaimed "right way" is shown to me...

This coming from the same parents that sent me to a church camp at Jim and Tammy Faye Baker's big water park/hotel/camp place in North Carolina when I was young...

[xxqqqzme]

31. this is so telling - I'm sure it it common 'family lore'

My Dad was/is the big 'think 4 yourself', 'weigh the facts', 'there is no dumb question' person in our family. He is also the person most responsible for my environmental attitude. So, it follows, he is the one most perplexed by my progressive political leanings. I took those 'be your own person' lectures 2 heart. I am most perplexed by his rethuglican stance since his (& my Mom's) comfortable pensions & healthcare are a direct result of their union membership. They would not B in the position they R 2day w/o their unions. How they can support the conservative agenda is beyond me.

[jab105]

33. Ironically...

both my parents are TEACHERS...youd think that alone would make a difference?!?

[neebob]

34. My mom does most of the talking

She recounts the complete history of everything in excruciating detail, and I just sit there and go uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh until I can get a word in edgewise and have thought of something that won't engage the wingnut. I'm often wrong. Sometimes I just ask questions about whatever she's going on about and pretend to be more interested than I am because I know she's lonely. (My dad died six months ago.)

My mom and I do have some common interests, but they're things like cats (she weighed one of hers while we were talking earlier) and cute cartoons. If the subject evokes any degree of passion on either side, it's a bad idea. Even if there's a point of agreement, it will probably end up somewhere unpleasant. I can't even talk too much about what's going on with my son, who she adores, because she can't resist the urge to second-guess my parenting or throw in some goofy moral comment. Like tonight she said she was going to buy these pocket telescopes for all three grandsons. I said great, my son will love that. He'll take it snowboarding and use it to see his buddies up the hill and stuff. Then she adds that it's engraved with the kid's name and has a quote by Walt Whitman or somebody about keeping one's goals in focus. Uh, okay. Everything has to have some big point behind it. She'd be hurt if she knew the dopey little book she sent my son for Christmas, "Way to Be!" by I forget which Mormon General Authority, is outside on the deck, propping up one side of a potted plant that tends to tip over.

So my mom and I can talk, but it isn't very satisfying. I wouldn't try to change her views, and after tonight I'm resolving to stop trying to get her to respect mine. It's not worth having her upset or me sitting around stewing until 2 in the morning.

[jab105]

36. My mom never wants to start fights...

Shes very non-confrontational (probably because my dad's personality is similar to the 1950s male, my mom waits on him hand and foot, he's the boss, shes the servant)...

But, it leads to so much distance between us...I mean she honestly thinks I'm going to hell for my political views, that just baffles me, and is probably the main reason why I try to argue my case (I dont want her to think I'm going to helL:))...specailly since I have thought about my political views a lot more than she has, and desperately wish that she would actually HEAR me...

Wehn my friends from high school come over when I'm down there(most have kids at this point), my mom always gets them Bible books, or a stuffed animal that says Bible verses...something similar...that I definitely understand what you mean...

I definitely dont hate God, I just hate the idea that God is a Republican!!

[neebob]

38. Going to hell for your political views?

That's harsh. Even the Mormons will let you have your political views; just keep them to yourself if they conflict with church teachings.

I've often wondered what my mother thinks will happen to me, since only women who are married in the temple and are called from their graves by their husbands and know the secret handshake and have permission from Joseph Smith can get into heaven and be goddesses and stuff. I'm afraid to ask. I guess I'll just float around at the lowest of three levels, which is so much better than here on earth, you'd kill yourself to get there. The hell is knowing you could have done better. Or maybe I'll be cast into Outer Darkness with the homosexuals for having an abortion when I was 22. (My mother would have a stroke if she knew this.)

I think Merlin's advice is very wise. Maybe you could ask your mom questions about whatever she's interested in (besides the church). Then she'll have to respond, and eventually you may find some common ground.

[Merlin]

30. It's odd to find out your parents aren't the people you thought raised you

I grew up a Democrat. (In the third grade my Dad gave me a button that said "A Vote for Ike is a Vote for Tricky Dicky!" I wore it to school every day for a week. At the end of the week, a bunch of 6th graders (5 of them I think) waylayed me after school and told me never to wear it again. That was my intro to politics.)

Since my Dad was such a good Dem, I assumed my Mom was too. She did always tell us to be tolerant of people of other races.

I loved JFK, MLK, RFK. I had coffee with MLK and worked for RFK and told my Mom stories about it thinking she was a supporter.

When I got older, I began to realize she was an ardent right wing Catholic. She loved Nixon, loved Reagan, loved Bush.

I used to argue with her. But I've come to realize it is pointless. She is simply an unenlightened person, and no amount of arguing will enlighter her. She is who she is. It's her problem, not mine.

My problem--or my challenge--is to live up to the injunction to love your parents. Love is easy when you like someone and agree with them. But it's much harder when you argue and disagree. I'm still working on it. Mom is now 84, and I'm nearly 60.

I surely love her for all her hard work raising us. But that was long ago. Now, sadly, I find myself not wanting to call. We have little to discuss, and it's tough avoiding politics and philosophies.

I respect your situation, jab. You sound like a fine person. Hang in there. You won't ever change her. Just work on accepting her for who she is. And look elsewhere for conversation.

[jafap]

39. is proselytising part of the problem?

In the sense that you do not just want to discuss things with people, but you are angling for a conversion? I am not averse to a lively disagreement, and it is rare for me to be so certain of my own viewpoint that I can write the other off as "unenlightened". My only problem would be with people who do not just disagree with me, but find our disagreement a reason to condemn or disparage me.
I am afraid, however, that I would find things like belief in the rapture to be as goofy as believing in Nostradamus. When I was a teenager, I used to find it comforting to hear Billy Graham, et al. talk about how soon it was going to be. That meant I would never have to face death. It might be kinda comforting to think of my nieces and nephews being raptured rather than having to try to solve humanity's problems. Another thing I always thought was funny was how it is okay for God to cause a woman to miscarry, but it is wrong for us. From a Christian viewpoint - an innocent murdered baby surely goes to heaven (or are they re-born on earth?) whereas if they were born into poverty many of them, the vast majority, would not follow the straight and narrow, but instead lead lives of sin and desperation and end up in the lake of fire. Aren't they better off aborted?
At least you can be thankful that they did not convert you, nor are they actively trying to. You might try to show them that they do not need to walk away from the Republican party, because the Republican party neo-cons are extremists who have perverted the party of Lincoln, Grant, and Ike. They even make Reagan look like a moderate.

[Lexingtonian]

40. sounds quite familiar

Something similar to this happened to my grandmothers, and to some extent has happened to my mother. It began to happen when their own peers and parents and such died, and they couldn't really find anyone else with whom they had mutual understanding.

The way to think about may be that these people live in a world so different from the one they were born into, and that they've lost real connection to, that they have chosen to live in psychological bubbles.

The Biblical commandment is not to love your parents; it is to honor them. Honor them for what they stand for perhaps more than what they are. That is not the same thing as respect, though it entails some of the same reverence- for things no longer much in evidence.

I've concluded that fierceness about abortion for my elderly female relatives isn't about the practical issue. It's mostly a way of talking about being valued as women in a world where they've been made to feel in essence worthless in all other respects- a way of talking about childbearing and how it gave them dignity and importance of a kind.

The rapture/end of the world stuff is similarly a way of talking about the end of their own lives and discounting of others'. The crude, extreme-sounding racism is a way of talking about the society they considered themselves part of (a long time ago).

Joan Didion (age 67 then) says of her mother, who died in 2001 at age 91, in "Where I Was From" that 'in her last years, she expressed many extreme opinions that she did not really hold'. And the rest of the book is about the world from which her mother came (and raised her into).

If you really want/need to fight about the bottom line, you will inevitably have to fight with her proclaimed version of Christianity head on. If you want to research it, the overriding argument on your side is that groups like the SBs teach a version of Christianity corrupted with the beliefs of the pre-Christian pagans of northwestern Europe. That is where all these notions of what is sexually permissible and what must be killed as perversions, etc, come from. The basic line of attack is on the way they (the SBs) account for everything that goes wrong in human affairs as either demonic possession or a transcendental deity's desires.

And do tell her that if she drops the fear, the hatred, the denial, and the excuses she makes for herself and the corrupt others (Republican, SBs) who dominate her life, then she may find a great deal more of worthwhile life shared with her.

[Merlin]

43. This is such a brilliant and eloquent post, Lex. But raises some questions

"these people live in a world so different from the one they were born into, and that they've lost real connection to, that they have chosen to live in psychological bubbles."

Excellent insight.

"...fierceness about abortion for my elderly female relatives isn't about the practical issue. It's mostly a way of talking about being valued as women in a world where they've been made to feel in essence worthless in all other respects- a way of talking about childbearing and how it gave them dignity and importance of a kind."

Ditto!


"The rapture/end of the world stuff is similarly a way of talking about the end of their own lives and discounting of others."

Again! Excellent!


"...SBs teach a version of Christianity corrupted with the beliefs of the pre-Christian pagans of northwestern Europe. That is where all these notions of what is sexually permissible and what must be killed as perversions, etc, come from."

Very interesting. Would this apply to Catholicism's similar oddities? Any references to this theory?


Finally, do you genuinely feel it's possible to convey a new outlook on a very elderly person of such fixed beliefs?

Thanks for a very interesting post.

[LittleApple81]

42. On a totally different vein, congratulations on being in the 700 club. n/t

[devinsgram]

44. This is why I stay away

from any kind of organized religion. People like Robertson and Falwell have made very good livings from brainwashing and selling religion. They are the top salesmen in their field.Personally I feel there is something spiritual out there, but it is for us to find it on our on, not to have it shoved down our throats.