Friend upset over Pledge of Allegiance and wants me to sign a petition.

[tinfoilinfor2005]

One of my dearest friends is a conservative bush fan. (I know.) We don't discuss politics much, but we are both Christians. I got an email today because she is upset over the fight eliminating the Under God from the Pledge of Allegiance.

I'm a little flummoxed over this one. Even though I have a very deep belief in God, I do believe in the separation of church and state. I also remember (and so does she) when this was not a part of the Pledge of Allegiance in this country.

Even though I question her priorities during this time following the worst storm this country has ever seen, I am starting to wonder whether this Pledge thing isn't just another smoke screen to continue to divide our citizens.

1. What do you think? 2. How should I respond? (Keep in mind, we are friends and I could be mean and right but I don't really want to go there.)

[belle]

1. Try neutrally asking her why she feels this is so important, first.

Listen to everything she says before you start to respond. You may find an opening based on what she's *actually* concerned about--a point where you can start to explain that you may share the same basic concerns (if you do), but you disagree that the Pledge is something that needs to be kept, and here's why.

If you can, or want to, post her response here before you answer her.

[tinfoilinfor2005]

19. see #17

[AirmensMom]

2. Don't sign.

You can be a Christian and still think it's wrong to force other people to practice your beliefs in a country where we're supposed to have freedom of religion. The Under God phrase doesn't offend me, but I realize that it offends others. Remember, these are the same people who get all up in arms about "taking Christ out of Christmas" ... never bothering to educate themselves about all the pagan rituals they perform during the holidays. I have a friend of the same persuasion and I take the opportunity to point her towards educational material whenever she rants about things like this.

[tinfoilinfor2005]

20. see #17

[0007]

3. Be honest about it and you'll never regret it. You may find

that you didn't indeed didn't have a good friend.

I think they should ban the Pledge of Alleginace. What good is it?

Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all others because you were born in it. William Shakespeare

[tinfoilinfor2005]

21. see #17

[MindPilot]

4. Nothing like helping the right spin the issue

How is it a smokescreen and who or what is the malevolent force creating it?

[matt819]

5. Just say no

I don't think kids should be asked to say the pledge of allegiance every day in school in any case. Think about it. Do you pledge your allegiance to your spouse every day? How about to your employer? When I worked for the federal goverment some years back I took an oath to protect and defend, etc. I took that oath very seriously, and lived it for the time I worked for the USG. But no one asked, and I didn't volunteer, to take that same oath every day of my working life.

Taking the so-called pledge of allegiance every day cheapens the meaning and value. I would go so far as to bet that if you asked kids who take the pledge to recite it without reference to the group mumble, they would get it wrong.

So, if you like, use this as the basis for your refusal. Or just be honest. You're not comfortable incorporating a religious conviction into a secular pledge.

[tinfoilinfor2005]

22. see #17

[baldguy]

6. Belief in God isn't based upon an oath authored by a human being.

And forced recitation of that oath won't make people believe. No matter what the christo-fascists say, The Freedom of Religion set forth in the Constitution DOES mean, for some people, Freedom FROM Religion.

on edit: Aren't false professions of faith blasphemy?

[tinfoilinfor2005]

23. see #17

Freedom from religion. That is true.

[nyhuskyfan]

7. I say leave "Under God" in it...

Just don't ask anyone to say it. Especially children who have no clue what they are saying. It's a disgusting loath oath of loyalty to a large patch of land that has proven time and time again it deserves no such "blind" loyalty. I refuse to pledge allegiance to America -- if America does right, I will support it. If it does something wrong, like oh, let's just throw something hypothetical out there for shits and giggles, wage a war on false pretenses, I am not marching in lockstep behind the flag.

Now if they want children to say "I pledge allegiance to the planet", I'll give that a thumbs up.

I absolutely HATE the pledge of allegiance. I find it to be the most decisively un-American activity in this country -- it should be in the dictionary under "tragic irony."

[Tamyrlin79]

14. No, that misses the point.

The pledge has been passed as the official pledge by congress with those words in it. Indeed, it was congress that amended the original pledge and put "under God" in. Congress shall pass no law respecting the establishment of religion--and that includes establishing monotheism, generally, over polytheism or atheism.

The fact is that by amending the pledge in the way it did, congress went beyond its prescribed powers and violated the constitution. It cannot be upheld as valid as it is.

[tinfoilinfor2005]

see #17

[Az]

8. Sign it if you believe in it, don't sign it if you don't

Read the 1st ammendment though. Note the very first thing mentioned in the very first ammendment. Dunno. Seems they thought it was kinda important if its the first thing in the first ammendment.

[tinfoilinfor2005]

25. see #17

[Leeny]

9. We're not losing the pledge

Most of the front page headlines I saw said "Pledge unconstitutional" or something along those lines. They make it sound like, perhaps intentionally, that the entire pledge of allegiance is being denied. Not just the part about "under God". Perhaps if you make sure that she understands that the pledge is still intact, and is returning to it's original form, she would be able to accept?

Being an agnostic/borderline atheist/generally non-commital on the subject, it is not emotional for me. Well, let me rephrase. I get very emotional when I see the separation between church and state being blurred. But losing "under God" doesn't bother me. Hey, I never said it anyway. Even when I was a kid. I just stopped at that part and looked down.

Good luck.

[tinfoilinfor2005]

26. see #17

[Der Blaue Engel]

10. Why should you sign a petition you don't agree with

just to not hurt a friend? (If that's what you're saying.) Surely there's nothing "mean" about just saying you don't agree.

I think all of the cries of "smoke screen!" about issues that don't seem so important to everyone are a huge mistake. There are issues that matter to some and not to others, and lots of these issues have been in the works for a LONG time...this one in particular. It has nothing to do with trying to divide anyone.

No one should have to "give in" on seemingly small issues just because there are more obvious ones, and I think anyone who claims that dems lose because of this is doing us all a disservice. I always bring this kind of thing back around to civil rights; should dems have dropped such issues as desegregation back in the 60s because a majority of white bigots might vote against them in the next election?

Picking your battles at the right time is one thing, but running away from battles to appease the fundies is the wrong thing to do.

[msongs]

13. flag is a FALSE idol ...do not pledge allegiance ->

to a piece of material. that is kind of silly is it not, and violates your own expressed religion belief of creating false idols linked to your own god view.

Msongs
www.msongs.com/clark2008.htm

[tinfoilinfor2005]

27. see #17

[scarletwoman]

11. The Pledge was originally written by a Socialist.

The words "under God" were added during the height of the "Red Scare" in the 50's -- to distinguish the U.S. from the "godless" communists -- they were not part of the original Pledge.

Personally, I find the entire notion of pledging allegience to be an objectionable exercise in any case. The "under God" part only makes it moreso.

Good citizenship does not grow from rote recitation of some nationalistic chant, it arises out of teaching critical thinking and social involvement.

Mandating the recitation of the "Pledge" is anathema to a free society. Such forced nationalism is a feature of totalitarian states, and has no place in a healthy democratic republic.

And even if such a recitation were somehow acceptable -- say, in a context of a deep analysis of what "liberty and justice for all" really means -- mandating a reference to "God" in the mix is wholly inappropriate and coercive.

It's egregious enough to be shoving statism down the throats of our children, shoving theocracy along with it is absolutely unacceptable.

sw

[tinfoilinfor2005]

28. see #17

[silverlib]

12. Here's my take -

I get this kind of stuff, too. I have replied that although I pray for our country, I do not think our constitution and government was designed to protect Christians independent of other religions, that it protects the citizens' right to worship or not to worship in the way we see fit. I also talk about my concern that it is a smoke screen and keeps us from taking care of important moral issues that are not inherent to only Christians.

Good luck - it's hard for me not to blow a gasket. I just got one from an eighty year-old uncle about a vote coming up on the Texas Constitution marriage amendment - guess which side he's on. It's hard not to bash his opinions, but I have to know I am not going to change this man's mind.

[tinfoilinfor2005]

29. see #17

[pitohui]

15. well i'm not her friend

i would send her a letter saying i just lost a good friend & my house & if she has nothing better to do than worry abt the pledge of allegiance she can go to hell because real ppl are suffering & dying while she masturbates over some words said to a fucking piece of cloth

& since you are too polite to do this, you have my permission to email my post w. a comment pointing out that she is masturbating over nothing while ppl are dying and other ppl are losing their communities and their entire history

[OnionPatch]

16. I don't understand

a faith so shallow that it would somehow be damaged or weakened if we didn't see "under God" on our money. The same with the pledge; is anyone going to forget about God if they don't say the pledge with His name in it? It's almost insulting to me that anyone would even think my faith would be so shallow as to need constant reinforcement from the government in this manner.

[tinfoilinfor2005]

30. see #17

[FlaGranny]

32. I'm with you, and I think it is

an insult to your God to put his name on money - the root of all evil.

[tinfoilinfor2005]

17. Wow. What an amazing group of people here at DU.

I think that my best response would be to just email her this entire page. I see no snarkiness or sarcasm here. Thanks to all.

[Double T]

18. Our country is in a shambles, the world is falling apart........

and we are worried about the damn Pledge of Allegiance and whether it contains the words 'under god' or not. This IS absolute insanity!!!!!!

[pitohui]

24. yes it is insanity

you know, if god cared what we thought, he's god, there is stuff he could have done to help us out here

he abandoned us

he hasn't earned our respect much less the right to violate our separation of church & state

if you are all-powerful & you can't be arsed to do anything to improve matters, then you don't deserve my respect, i'm sorry

[shrike]

40. What you said

I just can't believe this has come up again.

I think we should just throw out the pledge. That way, I'd never have to hear about it on the news again.

[mmonk]

31. Tell her

you are an originalist ;) . The original pledge didn't have God in it.

[oppositionmember]

33. Why can't we all just get along...

and put in something inoffensive like, "one nation under Allah," then everyone can relax.

OK?

[krkaufman]

34. Could try this... "Relative to other national priorities, ...."

"... this issue isn't worth my time fighting for, or against."

[melv]

35. Under Allah?

Ask yourself this question - what if it said "Under Allah or Under Buddah, or even Under no God at All?"

Under God excludes those Americans who do not follow the same religious beliefs as those who like the Under God phrase.

Why on earth would we want a phrase in our national pledge that excludes a part of the population?

[OnionPatch]

39. Right, it seems to me

like it's just a matter of courtesy. Why would you want to force your fellow Americans to say something in the pledge they didn't agree with? The pledge is something that all Americans should be able to say together from their whole hearts. It should be all about the ways we are in unity as Americans.

I wouldn't have a pork roast at a dinner where I knew people were vegetarians and expect them to eat it just because most of the guests were eating it. Out of courtesy, I would make sure the menu was appealing to everyone at my table. Like I said, it's called courtesy.

[chaska]

36. The wall between church and state protects the church from the state.

[really annoyed]

37. It's your decision

Personally, I think we need to worry about the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina at the moment. If you share the same opinion, maybe you could pass that message along to her.

But like I said, it's really your decision. I think you should stick to your opinion but be polite about it. I've been in the same situation as you. I often get letters that are of a political nature from my best friends. I think as long as you are kind, you shouldn't have a problem.

[progressoid]

38. My latest favorite is that saying the pledge breaks a Commandment

To say that we are "one nation under God" is a lie (false witness). We aren't. No matter how much Amurikans want to believe it, it just ain't so. Even if you discount the 10-15% of us that don't believe, you should say that we are "one nation under Gods".

If you want to get impudent, tell her that she shouldn't pledge allegiance to a flag, but to God.

[Rabrrrrrr]

41. Because you can't be Christian and pledge allegiance to anything

that isn't God. For the Christian, the ONLY allegiance is to God.

Allegiance to a country is heresy.

Allegiance to an OBJECT (the flag) goes BEYOND heresy.

And I say this as a very serious Christian. This Christian (me) refuses to sing the national anthem, AND refuses to pledge allegiance to a flag, whether that flag is under God or not. Because no matter how much hypocritical lip service is given to the flag being under God, it isn't. So to pledge allegiance to it is not only to violate our prime directive as Christians (to pledge allegiance to God only), it's also A BLASPHEMOUS FUCKING LIE.

[funflower]

42. You are not required to respond to every piece of e-mail political spam

your right wing friends send you. My guess is she sent the same mail to a number of people, and most of them will smile and delete it.