Evan Thomas On Imus...And Thoughts

[KharmaTrain]

Anthrax Coultegeist's favorite socialist was on and made some real solid points of the real magnitude of the Wilson situation. And, sorry, kids, as I suspect, it will be an irritant, but not the bombshell we were hoping for. No Monica, No Watergate...possibly a Whitewater at best.

The smell of this scandal will linger for a while and remain rampant (probably falling into conspiratorial cultism on the internet) in Dem circles, it will fall off the front pages and those who barely got a whiff of this scandal will be on to "the next big thing". Thomas put it in perspective that this story is very complex and is removed from most people's lives...there isn't the connect that sex or terror brings. Also, that many people start to get cynical when the term "Gate" is thrown around...it's like "here we go again". Granted the stakes in what happened here far outweighs any criminality in the Clinton Administration, but after decades of non-stop Gates, it's like Chicken Little...each call resonates less than the previous time.

The underlying story here is the D.C. establishment. For days I wondered why Novak was the one to out Mrs. Wilson. It made even less sense considering Novak's not a BushCo team player on the Middle East. Now it looks as though using Novak was a safe conduit. He's Washington establishment 100%...one of the oldest survivors in that shark tank and virtually beyond reproach. It was a smart move to use him to protect the cover of other reporters who don't have the armour Novak does. Plus, it's certain Novak won't give up a source unless he's frog-walked to do so...and that's highly, highly unlikely. It was even more obvious watching him yesterday with Russett and David Broder...it was the "good old boy network" on parade.

Someone once described the beltway as DC ON/DC OFF...The ON part is the one that's partisan and a blood sport. DC OFF is happy hour and cocktail parties and personal status and social climbing/career advancement. Novak is at the top of this ladder, others don't want to knock him off his mantle...just want a seat next or nearby.

The only way this small scandal builds bigger legs is, just like Watergate, it begins a series of leaks and revelations that start to unravel other scandals in this regime. But that's going to be far tougher than in 1974 without control of either house. The Rove machine knows it and they could just get away with it again.

Hoping for the CIA to be our savior is faustian...I'd be happy if it ties up Rove, Chenney and others so they can't pillage our treasury, destroy our few remaining civil liberties or kill our young men/women as much.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

1. well i think you're wrong and so is the repuke evan thonmas

this is a national security issue...and treasonable period!...of course thomas is gonna say it's not such a big deal...that's his job and why the hell are you here on DU promoting and supposrting the repuke talking points?

[KharmaTrain]

2. I Think It's Very Big...But

Yes, it's treasonable to out a NOC...and I hope there are a bunch of the hoodlums in this regime who face charges on this and have their lives and careers ruined.

My point and for discussion, is the game that Washington is or could play to kill/stonewall this serious issue and how it's starting to unfold.

Yep, there are definite GOOP talking points in here and we should discuss and be aware of them. Have a problem with that?

[MarkTwain]

7. Precisely...

.. and, I thank you for posting a rather coherent, albeit depressing, analysis which one is welcome to either accept or debate.

I'm getting damn sick and tired of challenges to members on this board who post items that might be counter to the prevailing "bandwagon" hysteria with them finding themselves either directly labelled or suspected as "repuke" sympathizers.

I, for one, am not a member of any chior excpet that which is progressive - and I don't think that DU is supposed to be exclusively for those who preach to such while asking us to put our blinders on.

My regrets, IMR, that you were abused for presenting a rather interesting perspective on precisely what you termed it to be: the dynamic, with its pecking order, of the DC machine and how it may very well effect the outome.

Irrespective that it was from the mouth of a "repuke," one could very reasonbly argue that the fact that they now control all three components of our government with a choke-hold on the "fourth estate," their insights into such dynamic merit attention. If only from a self-serving strategic perspective on our part.

Thanks again.

[KharmaTrain]

9. And I Thank You

Honestly, I'm seriously considering ending my posting on DU. While I've been a long-time reader (I used to post on other forums) and paid and proud member (which I will continue to be...supporting what DU truely stands for), I also am not here to be "one of the crowd"...or need to be accepted in this "online community". I'm almost 48...worked my first Democratic campaign in 1972 (I was 16 and did polling for Abner Mikva) and am a very proud Progressive.

That said, I want to see an open dialogue that can look honestly not only at our opponents, but at ourselves. To put our differences in various lights and present opinions. Isn't this what really makes Democrats and Progressives so much better than others? I sure hope so.

[bearfartinthewoods]

13. if you leave, they win and we all suffer

i think of this place as a giant see-saw. if too many people abandon one end, the other drops like a rock and the whole thing doesn't work anymore.

[loudnclear]

4. Their performances are very subtle, but they are out there in droves.

The RW talking heads are out in force on all the main morning shows including C-Span. They say just enough negative about the Bushcos to make the viewer think they are 'fair and balanced' and then they will slip in the real message the administration wants to put out there. The main message has at least four points that I have detected.

1. The people who blew Wilson's wife's cover (WH staff and Novak) did not REALLY KNOW if she was 'undercover.' (IMHO, ignorance of the law is no defense where treason is concerned.)

2. This story will be short-lived and is not of the magnitude of Watergate or Monicagate. (They are right. It MUCH BIGGER! It treason and has the gravity of what the Rosenbergs were executed for, as well as the crimes performed by Ames and others.)

3. Bush cannot be held responsible for what his underlings do. (However, it was ok, in the past, to hold Clinton and others totally responsible for whatever their staffs and supporters did).

4. Blame G. Tenent and the rest of the CIA for getting Bush into such trouble over these unfound WMDs. And keep pumping the notion that the world is better off without Saddam (eventhough all the evidence and current events demonstrate that this is not true.)

[ElsewheresDaughter]

5. re:point 2....

Woolsey and 6 other former CIA directors including GHWB have publicly stated "this leak has compromised national security and is treason"

[SpaceCatMeetsMars]

21. I had sort of a sick fascination with the Imus show last winter and

I watched it enough to notice that his MO is having people on to raise issues that hurt Republicans and pretend to be interested in the "true" facts and then to conveniently lay them to rest.

I know avid listeners who will then say that they heard both sides of the issue and they have no problems with Bush and the Republicans. They feel thay are keeping their eyes on Bush because they are such critical, savvy citizens, but conveniently, they always believe he is never really to blame for anything.

[Armstead]

3. Don't listen to Evan Thomas

He is a classic inside pundit rype. I saw hom once on TV and he was so dismissive of Bush critics that I could never even watch the TV when he's on.

[Aries]

6. "Elephants wrestling under a blanket"

That was the metaphor William Safire used on the Lehrer show on Friday to describe the Wilson Affair (to quote a real Republican and not a lite one like Evan Thomas). With the CIA being one elephant and the other being the Bush gang, I imagine. Meaning that the real battles are just barely visible to the rest of us, apparently including Safire.

It seems highly possible that with elephants wrestling, some valuable Republican china may be broken.

[KharmaTrain]

8. There's Some Serious Spinning Here

I use Thomas as an example as one of the "go-along/get-alongs" that are willing to be used by the regime so they can keep their access and bylines. He's not "in the loop", thus his spin is at least reasonable than one from any of the dozens of GOOP spinmesiters we know are trying to kill this story as fast as they can.

Unfortunately it's the treasonous matter of this affair they are going all out to kill. Yep, someone musta spoke off the cuff and created a small crack in that iron curtain that surrounds this regime and it's put Rove personally on the defensive...and from all I've read about this guy, he's ruthless and relentless in getting his "message" out as the final one.

Honestly, I think that shot over the bow Wilson stated that was intended for the intelligence community may also be one over the puppy-dog press...especially now. You have to think there are a bunch of reporters in that town who are wondering if they will be hauled down to the FBI or loose that coveted access.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

10. intimigate/retaligate.... not only other agents but also the press

2 birds with 1 stone ...so to speak :shrug:

C-Span is discussing it right now

[KharmaTrain]

12. They Can't Figure It Out

I'm watching C-SPAN as well. And the more I hear, the more I see the "fourth estate" is hunkering down...combination of damage control and utter confusion.

The sword of Damaclese here is the names of the reporters who could be outed by either the investigation or "slimed with it" by Rove. Given "journalistic integrity" and CYA...you know what takes priority.

[childslibrarian]

11. Please do not stop posting

I also think you need to listen to all sides..if for nothing else to know how to fight them...

[JNelson6563]

14. The reason I disagree with this conclusion

is the bottom line of this. On one side you have the WH, let's call them the Mayberry Machiavellis. On the other side you have the CIA, we'll call them the Manhattan Machiavellis. The choice of town is self-explanatory and clearly indicates the level of sophistication and shrewdness.

My money is on the CIA. They are pretty angry and in spite of Tenet's willingness to take the bullet for Jr the rest of them plan to do no such thing. I think of two previous presidents who pissed off the CIA who did not finish their terms. Within my lifetime even and I'm only 40. Of course the Mayberry Machiavellis have little use for history. Only the bits that serve their propaganda needs.

Team Bush is in big trouble.

Julie

[KharmaTrain]

16. Good Analogy

However, I'm looking more at the role of the media here and how it's being manipulated right now either by the regime or the CIA or the RNC. To me it's an observation that most of the "mainstream" media was dragged into this story and can't wait to find their way out.

Yep, there appears to be a serious rift between the CIA and the WH...just like Tenet played games with Clinton. "The Company", as I'm sure you are aware, is a world unto it's own, and to be honest with you I don't feel comfortable coming within a country mile of those spooks. Putting our faith in them to destroy this evil regime is not something we want...even for these bastards.

All that matters to the "Mayberry" (or shouldn't that be "Ewings" since these evil goons reminds me more of the cut-throats on that show than of loveable Otis Pike & Barney Fife) is their power and the control and exercize of it. Yes, history is of no use, neither do rules nor limits.

What I think we're seeing is Rove really cracking the whip. And this also includes getting too cozy with CIA contacts or giving it too much ink.

[MarkTwain]

26. Bravo ...

...."Mayberry Machiavellis."

Priceless - with all due respect to Aunt Bea.

[alcuno]

15. This story is not "very complex"

I saw Fred Barnes try this tact yesterday and it failed miserably. It's anything but complex. Unlike Whitewater, it's a story that can be explained in one sentence.

"In what some are calling an act of treason, a CIA operative's identity was made public by officials of the US government after her husband, a former ambassador, reported that the president's SOTUS contained false information about yellowcake sales to Iraq."

Try and explain Whitewater in one sentence.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

17. alcuno exactly!

[DemNoir]

18. You are so right!

What scares Republicans is the fact that this is a very simple story to understand.

[pansypoo53219]

19. unlike

Enron and the other Bush crimes.

[KharmaTrain]

23. But Have Enron and Other Scandals even gotten any traction?

Look at California. The issue there should have been Enron and how their price gouging and manipulation is the root of the raise in taxes that led to the GOOP-inspired recall.

Sheesh, how much more simple can you make it to people who had their power cut off and are now paying for it. Unfortunately Davis is failing to make that case and Ahnold's bimbos and Nazi stories are "sucking the air" even further.

Millions lost jobs, pensions, investments and we're still paying in lawsuits and the recession Enron didn't cause, but sure hasn't helped...causing a ripple that hit almost every stock. Yet, Lay and Skilling are still living the loca vida and these bastards are even suing to get money for services they didn't deliver. Sheesh.

Are people that numb? I know what answers to expect...:hangover:

[KharmaTrain]

20. Freepers Do It In A Word...Clinton

Honestly, do people really understand what treason is? I'll be honest to say my impressions are of the Aldrich Ames/Jonathan Pollard Spy vs. Spy variety.

Or, we get a picture of Lindh or the Shoe bomber. The problem is to connect how losing not only Mrs. Wilson's cover, but now that of her company (and that's what could really do damage...and another shot over the CIA bow, I believe) to "Joe 6-pack"...and then trace it to the inept fool who squats in Al Gore's White House. Can you give me a way this can be done simply? And to break through a media that is has been extremely compromised by this regime.

Actually this story was summed up in 16 words and see how that died until the CIA asked for an investigation this week? Now that it's in the "capable" hands of our beloved attorney general you know it's headed for a long, long, dark final conclusion. Repugnicans are so good at hiding their scandals around elections.

[UTUSN]

22. Unfortunately, the Wingnuts Are Waging

their usual scoundrelism with the help of their media tools. There's a Will ROGERS quote out there, something like, Both parties have scoundrels in them, but the Dems aren't smart enough to catch the Repukes in the act of their scoundrelism. THOMAS talked up Tweety calling WILSON about ROVE's saying his wife was "fair game." Those words sound more like Tweety paraphrasing. It was odd that Tweety, later in the ANUS circus, played DOWN his involvement, preferring to let understatement, for once, speak louder, to make the point of how connected he is, talking both to ROVE and WILSON----and preferring to play up his infatuation with Ahhhnuld. Tweety said it was simple, that electronic logging of calls does the trick. But it all seems MOOT--------Shrub KNOWS, CHEENEE knows. Why do 200 people need to be interviewed. Above all, the two people know and are not sweating bullets because they did what their capos WANTED them to do. All that's going on is working out how to get everybody off scotfree.

[alcuno]

24. The 16 words didn't die. They live on in Bush's poll numbers.

Why do 54% of Americans now believe that the Iraq war was not worth it? Maybe it's because they know they were lied to.

As for people knowing what treason is, of course they do. It's simple. It's betraying the security of your country. Trying to complicate the matter is what people do who want Americans to be confused. Because if they are confused, they can be better manipulated.

The job of the Democrats is to keep this stuff simple.

[blm]

27. Yes. Bush's credibility is what needed to be punctured.

Those Senators who pushed him to present evidence to the UN and to the American people and Congress, set him up for that major hit. If he hadn't been forced to over-reach on the evidence, he would be in pretty good shape with the public at this time, with no need to live up to any proof.

[MarkTwain]

28. I agree...

..."Actually this story was summed up in 16 words and see how that died until the CIA asked for an investigation this week?"

I have been asking for the last two plus months since this first broke, where the hell is everyone? Does anyone understand what has happened here and what is being alleged.

The silence was deafening over such a profound issue.

[BeFree]

25. What we've got here...

Is a failure to communicate.

The mega-press will not communicate with us until they know their backsides are covered. They are not really free. They fear being free. This is why 'we' know so little, and most of what we do know comes not from the mega-press but from from free individual reporters.

So, yes, you are correct: We cannot depend on the mega-press to accurately communicate this story, or any others.

What we can/must depend upon is the Justice system. WE know laws have been broken. There is a communication system in the WH based on emails and other electronic means and recording. The system by it's very nature produces redundant copies.

Justice investigators are pouring over these copies as we speak. The CIA is pouring over all the data. This is how this story will be played out: Piece after piece, player after player, official after official, will be exposed and hung out to dry, one after the other until the WH is totally crippled.

My two cents. Peace

[KharmaTrain]

29. What? No Instant Gratification?

I hope you're right that we'll get an honest investigation by this Justice Department, but I'm highly cynical. And if there is anything that does come to light, you know it's going to be supressed til after next year's elections.

I'm seeing various WH officials covering their butts by using the media and the media playing right along to cover theirs. Downright incestuous.

Given your scenario we would be treated to "starts and stops" here with the story heating up every so briefly when an indictment is handed down or a verdict is reached...not quite the thunder a lot of us would love to see. Also with the short-term attention span of this country, will anyone really care, treason or not?

The burden to prove treason is very high, and rightfully so. You'd have to have such definitive proof that the leaker deliberated compromise national security and that would require making public lots of Top Secret material. That's a pretty tall order.