Uninformed question - A better nation for women where??

[whatever4]

Uninformed question - A better nation for women where??

I have to admit to real ignorance. Is there any nation on this planet with better law and culture for women? I'm seriously asking, it's not a flippant question; is there anywhere better? Better rates of violence against women, reproductive rights, better infant mortality rates, equality under the law, and trends indicating there aren't a bunch of powerful groups out there jumping to erode these gains as soon as is politically possible?

I look at our nation, with all the problems we face, along with the agenda of so many of our "leaders" that aren't concerned about ANY womans issue and never will be, and I realize our rights are a ripe, juicy target. Something to be exploited, even used as a political smoke screen, and fairly well laughed at sometimes by the conservatives. I believe our welfare will NOT be a priority, and frankly, I'm just sick and damned tired of it. I look at all the oh so pretty women around me, and I don't even want the fight it anymore. Just tired of it, it's just too stupid after a while, and not even worth the discussions. I think we're being slid right back into the "home", and do not even want to see the ugliness and violence sure to come to "keep" us there.

I do not care to argue with anyone that does not agree, and that is not the point of my post. I do not care if one believes I am "wrong"; this is a matter of my perception, and if I am wrong, I will be overjoyed, but I will not argue over the rightness or wrongness of my irritation, exasperation and worries over the future.

Is there a better place for women than the US? I'm under the impression there is not, but if I'm wrong, I'd REALLY like to know.


btw, anyone wants to slam me over any of my statements (I've run into interesting attitudes even here a few times, over gender issues), be aware you'll deserve the bashing you'll receive, and when it comes to sheer man-bashing, I'm as evil a queen bitch as you'll ever meet. I'd advise in advance that you to find a better, weaker, more ego-forgiving target. Be warned.

[BooScout]

1. The UK springs to mind........

And don't bash me.....I'm a woman and a feminist myself.

[whatever4]

3. Thanks, could you tell me more?

Information is appreciated ;)

Please forgive the strong tone of my post, it's a preemptive attack. I'm not out to slam anyone, and don't even want to waste the time in doing so.

[BooScout]

8. Start with universal Healthcare....

Everyone in the UK has healthcare. Here in the states we have what? 44 million without? That's despicable IMHO.

Yes the UK has poverty but their welfare safety net is much better than ours. Not near as many live hand to mouth.

Public transportation. Better.

Education. Better.

Relations with the rest of the world. Tenfold better than ours (of course Russia's relations with the rest of the world is better than ours these days).

[whatever4]

14. Yes, but their gun laws are strong

Which in my humble opinion makes women weaker. Who needs superior firepower more than we do? I know that hot-break-ins (robbery of the home while the occupants are IN the home) are a lot more common than here. Their crime rates are...different than ours. It worries me, but then again, as long as I can have a baseball bat, I'm not as worries for myself as I am for other women. I'm wondering about their rape statistics and others, and doubt they're any better than ours.

But, I don't want to start up with gun rights. It's not popular with most women, or most progressives, and I think in this crowd, my concerns over the issue are, well, contrary...and there's nothing I can do about it. I really, really don't want to argue. ONLY looking for advice. I certainly don't want to insult anyone. Not at all. Please forgive it my answer even seemed argumentative; I don't mean it that way.

It's the woman-hating, woman-deriding, womans-issues blindness that I want to escape. The culture. The endless jokes about how we look. Last night, on a new tv show, there's this guy, and every other joke he's telling is about how this woman is fat (Kelly Clarkson?), that one is a slut, and on and on. It never ends. And this guy, he was as ugly as they come, going on and on, it's just too sick after a while. Typical of fascism, but even when the fascism ends, I think this gender-attacking attitude will not. It's just too damned much fun, and too handy to have second-class citizens around. It might stay that way for decades, hundreds of years even, before it changes. People like their slaves, and never give them up willingly.

I'm wondering if there is a place that puts real emphasis on the rights of women. Not only is it important for me personally, but also, in my mind, it's part of larger problems affecting both sexes, affecting everyone, but most nations are too blind to realize it, and have placed no priorities on women as a group, being subjugated, stereotyped and marginalized to the point that most nations believe a young woman, a girl basically (girls, 12 year olds, always called "women" when they get pregnant, they loose the right to their youth at that point), can be forced to reproduce, after having been raped, being expected to be an adult, but denied the adult choice in the matter. What a life sentence. Minors and abortions. It just friggin passed in my home state of Missouri yesterday, and I am so damed sick and tired of these self-serving monsters I could just scream.

Woman as murders are NOT the problem of ANY nation, town or village, yet these fools see fit to spend MUCH time, resources and political attention over the issue of abortion. And minors. As if THEY have any choice in this matter, even voting over it, they have none. Sick. Sick and tired of it.

[GinaMaria]

2. Canada

[whatever4]

6. Thanks :)

I guess what I need to do is have a look at the laws and attitude of Canada and Britain. Those were the two countries I thought about, but to know if it's really better or not is a more difficult question. I'm asking for information from other women (and men, of course) who have facts and issues that indicate to them that the country is better. It's easy to surf the net, trying to get information, but what I'm looking for is a direct answer to this exact question, from those who might know. Those who might know firsthand, or have wondered and researched this question themselves.

What I'm thinking is that the answer is a resounding NO. But you never know until you ask.

[sweetheart]

4. The top few seem to be

Denmark, sweden, the netherlands, canada

France, Germany and the UK are quite patriarchal, but as well, the
youth-culture takeover is less progressed, so being old is not such
a sin, a relief for the majority.

[whatever4]

7. Thank you :)

Thanks very much. Also, any specifics would be appreciated, if ya got any on hand?

[sweetheart]

12. Here are 2 significant statistics

of tremendous sigificance to womens equality:

http://www.aneki.com/richest.html
http://www.aneki.com/women_parliament.html

[whistle]

5. Cuba, China, Russia, Antarctica.....

[whatever4]

9. do wha??

Ya know, those weren't nations I thought of. At all. Could you tell me more?

[NewJeffCT]

29. China

China has the 1 child policy, which restricts children to one per family. However, this has also had the side effect of increasing opportunity for women. In the past, if a family had 10 children - 5 boys and 5 girls, the family resources would most likely be devoted to promoting the educations & careers of the boys. Now with the one child policy, the family resources go towards promoting the career of the one child, boy or girl. Unfortunately, in the countryside, you still have a lot of problems with abortions & unwanted girls being 'gotten rid off'... (I'm sure they have other problems, too)

However, in the more modern eastern part of China, men often do more housework than women (in Shanghai, men supposedly do ALL the housework.) and women usually make most of the major household decisions and control the money with an iron grip. This area encompasses Hong Kong & Guangzhou in the South & stretches up the east coast up to Dalian.

[whatever4]

33. That is perhaps worthwhile and interesting

But I don't think I could live happily in a nation or community with (I believe there to be) many families that abort their daughters in order to have a son. Coupled with that, in the end, I have no idea what it's going to do to their society, but it's looming soon, the outcome of that policy, and having far fewer females, well, it doesn't sound good to me. Not so good for my boys either; I'd like to have grandkids someday. Maybe even a granddaughter too, that would be cool. But not here. Not there either. Where?? I just don't know. There aren't enough base-ball bats in the world.

Poor kid, I'm going to be an embarrassingly outspoken grandmother.

[NewJeffCT]

47. True

I always wonder what is going to happen. But, China has moved the equivalent of the US population out of poverty over the last 25 years and are at least moving in the right direction.

And, right now, it is still very cheap to live there - DVDs are 75 cents to $1; you can feed a family of 4 at a nice restaurant for $10-$20; my sister-in-law in Nanjing just bought a top of the line webcam for like $12.

[whistle]

32. Those are the countries or perhaps political systems or lack of

...political systems where opportunities for both genders are equal and wide open. The traditional countries that people think off (Sweden, Canada, UK, etc.) first off are loaded with females who are highly educated, qualified and very competative.....and mostly well established in their social, political and economic roles.

Breaking into those societies as an outsider (especially if you are an American female) would be extremely difficult, if not impossible, without considerable support and influence. Oh sure, you'll find a source of livelihood for sure, but you'll be limited how far up the scale you'll go based not so much on your talents and abilities, but by how much you are perceived as fitting to the system (socialism/corporatism/conformism/what-ever-ism). In these societies, you remain female no matter how gender-blind the societies claim that they are. They may be more female gender-favored than the U.S., but only by a marginal degree.

Your question was: "...A better nation for women where?".

I perceive "better" as where opportunities are to better serve the needs of the society in which one lives by giving away the gifts and talents one has been given, in order to continue having and keeping them. I don't have any idea what you do for a living, what talents you have, what work you are qualified to do, how open you are to those around you, how you wish to be treated, etc. But I sense from the question you've asked that you may be seeking "better" than what you seem to have here in the U.S. So find a place where the recognition and rewards will be as great as your contributions to society. Sort of like this:

Be channel of peace –

Where there is hatred bring love –
Where there is wrong bring the spirit of forgiveness –
Where there is discord bring harmony –
Where there is error bring truth –
Where there is doubt bring faith –
Where there is despair bring hope –
Where there are shadows bring light –
Where there is sadness, I may bring joy.

Seek to comfort than to be comforted –
Seek to understand than to be understood –
Seek to love than to be loved.

Know that the great universal truth is:

- by self-forgetting that one finds;
- by forgiving that one is forgiven;
- by dying to one's old self that one awakens to eternal life.

Practice these in your daily life and who knows, you may not want to go anywhere else.

[whatever4]

35. Oh what a good and worthy post

Good words and true words, that was really nice, thank you. I'll keep it all in mind.

I just have this fear that our nation is, pardon me, but fixin' to get a lot more ugly. Worse than it is now, on it's way down. I agree with the feelings you express, and can't say we won't just be staying here, I just can't say either way. But the more time goes on, I guess in some ways I'd rather feel like an outsider in a nation in which I really AM an outsider, rather than here, where I feel out of place, though it IS my place. Abortion rights? I grew up thinking they were a given. Religious freedoms? When will these jerks start telling me I have to wear dresses and skirts, like they did in PUBLIC school when I was a child. Mid 70's, and I remember that history, even if others don't, or don't' care to.

We aren't so far away from ALL the double-standards. It's just too sickening to watch it start to turn back that way. Health care? This asshole nation provides insurance coverage for impotence, but denies for contraception, and pharmacies fight over handing out morning-after pills, though they know the pregnancies are not only in their first few DAYS of conception, most likely prescribed by a doctor due to a RAPE, and even with that, science tells us that the newly forcefully fertilized egg likely hadn't even attached to her at that point, free-floating fertilized eggs - have more rights than we do. At that point, there may not even BE a pregnancy, but this fact about reproduction just another one ignored. Immaterial to their philosophy...life changing for every woman the law can reach.

And it wouldn't be so bad if these issues were history, but these issues were yesterday and it makes me so mad I could spit nails.

I'd almost rather live in a nation that is moving TOWARD those goals from a lower place than US, than live here and watch it sink.

[whistle]

42. Thank you, nations are made up of people, people are a collection....

....of individuals, each individual who does their part, seeks the truth, gives the best they can and takes only what they need can't help but contribute to making a better society. As one with democratic ideals, don't be swayed by the issues of distraction and deflection from the other side. Do your part and do your best, beginning with yourself.

A young unmarried couple confided in me a few weeks ago because they were filled with fear and desperately in need of some direction regarding the issue you outlined above. Although I have certain principles and guidelines I try to follow for myself, I believe it is not my place to impose those on any one else and to judge and preach to those who are in need of help. So I provided information and several alternatives for them to choose. Then I let it go and gave it to God.

The couple's crisis is over and hopefully through their shared experience they've learned a lesson from life. I am grateful that alternatives where available to them, which 20 or 30 or 40 years ago most certainly would not have been available.

[whatever4]

48. Yes, I agree

But the law is the law, and current trends in our nation are nothing about bringing fairness to women. I think, my humble opinion, that we're not only targets, but at this point becoming favored targets. I don't think it will stop, I know I can't stop it, and I don't even want to see it happen. Not firsthand.

I'm happy your friends were able to work out their problem. I know what you mean about 40 years ago. I'll always be proud to tell my children, no matter what happens to abortion rights, that when THEY were born...it wasn't an accident. They were wanted. No one made me have them. No one stopped me from having an abortion. They were chosen, wanted, and no law "made" me have them.

I think future kids won't be hearing that from their mothers. A lot of future kids won't be wanted at all.

And it's only one problem. Just so tired of it, if there's a better place. I have far less identity tied up in my nation, now. I am not "proud to be an American" anymore. Our nation has done so much damage, while so many Americans couldn't even be bothered to notice, it makes me nauseous. I would have no problem leaving it behind. I'm not even Christian; there are millions of voting Americans that would boot me out of this country just for that, and consider it a victory.

Sure.

They win. Rather be elsewhere then.

[charlie]

10. Norway, perhaps?

They're smoking everybody in worldwide quality of life assessments right now.

[Zynx]

11. I was going to say Norway or Denmark.

[whatever4]

16. Ah, that looks like a good candidate

Thank you :)

[charlie]

22. Another thing to consider

If you're of a mind to regard the looming worldwide oil shortage as reality -- they do too. They're Europe's 3rd largest oil exporter and they're currently socking away an enormous amount, rather than let it go to market, as insurance.

[whatever4]

26. Oh, that is so right, a good thing to keep in mind

I hadn't even thought of that one, but yes that's got to be a real consideration, with peak oil and global warming. Sounds like those folks are planning ahead, unlike our own nation.

Thank you so much, I might have never run into that aspect of this multi-topic question of mine.

[theHandpuppet]

13. Let me address your post one issue at a time

First, a list of countries whose infant mortality rates are lower than the U.S.

Taiwan
Cuba
Korea, South
Faroe Islands
Italy
Man, Isle of
Aruba
New Zealand
San Marino
Greece
Monaco
Ireland
Jersey
United Kingdom
Gibraltar
European Union
Portugal
Netherlands
Luxembourg
Canada
Guernsey
Liechtenstein
Australia
Belgium
Austria
Denmark
Slovenia
Spain
Switzerland
Macau
France
Germany
Andorra
Czech Republic
Malta
Norway
Finland
Iceland
Japan
Hong Kong
Sweden
Singapore

[whatever4]

18. There are so many issues

I agree, and I guess I'm looking for the summarized opinions of others.

What's your best pick, in terms of women's rights?

[theHandpuppet]

23. Sorry, you're going to get facts, not the Cliff's Notes version

You referenced specifics in your OP, you're going to get specific responses complete with facts. You can draw your own summary from there.

[whatever4]

27. Why? nm

[theHandpuppet]

31. Well, because I find it interesting...

... that to those who offered summarized opinions, such as in posts #1 and #4, you asked for facts; when presented with facts, you ask for summarized opinions. Which exactly do you want?

[whatever4]

36. I want both, I want everything

I want anything you'd like to share on the subject, facts and opinions.

I'm not about telling anyone they're wrong, in their responses to me, and I place as much value on your opinion and experiences as I do any official study or list of facts. Your opinions may be based on facts in a way that ties it together better than anything else.

I'm looking for wisdom, and appreciate anything you care to tell me. If you don't have or don't care to offer your own ideas of what is a better place, I understand, and meant no insult.

[theHandpuppet]

52. I'm just trying understand the point

Are you looking for facts to rebut a particular argument? Thinking of emigrating? I mean, the type of answers you get will depend on the point of your question, which is not clear to me.

[whatever4]

55. Emigrating is what I have in mind

No, there is no argument. I'm searching for any wisdom you care to share on this multi-faceted question of "is there anyplace better than the US". Someplace markedly better, not just better in some ways and then worse in others. Offhand, I don't believe there are any, but I thought it would be a question to ask. I have many assumptions, which likely aren't very well informed at all. Your opinion is worth as much as any links you might provide, and I appreciate all of it.

[nickinSTL]

15. Here's one study

http://www.management-issues.com/display_page.asp?section=research&id=2144

A study by the World Economic Forum (WEF), the first to assess the gender gap by assessing the economic and political participation of women as well as their levels of education and health, places Sweden, Norway, Iceland, Denmark and Finland as the five nations which have had the greatest success in reducing inequality between men and women.

The survey scored nations on five criteria, including equal pay and access to jobs, the representation of women in decision-making structures, access to education and access to reproductive healthcare.

1. Sweden
2. Norway
3. Iceland
4. Denmark
5. Finland
6. New Zealand
7. Canada
8. United Kingdom
9. Germany
10.Australia
11.Latvia
12.Lithuania
13.France
14. *
15.France
16. *
17.United States

*- The article did not mention the names of the countries in 14th and 16th place.

[whatever4]

19. Ah thankyou thankyou thankyou

That's the stuff I'm looking for. Although I want to add, the individual personal opinions of the posters here is also being solicited. What's your best picks?

[nickinSTL]

25. I don't really know...

I'm partial to the Scandinavian countries, myself, but that's based on perception more than knowledge.

[whatever4]

28. You and me both :) nm

[Bassic]

17. I hate to blow my own horn, but Canada? eom

[whatever4]

20. Right at the top of the list, thanks :) It's a good horn to blow too, imho

[Bassic]

34. Well thank you very much

:hi:

[theHandpuppet]

21. Reply, part 2: Women and children in poverty, U.S.

www.epinet.org/books/swa2004/ news/swafacts_international. (This is a pdf)

The International Comparisons chapter of The State of Working America 2004/2005 compares the economic performance of the United States to the 19 other rich, industrialized countries that also belong to the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD). Countries in this comparison are: Australia, Austria, Belgium, Canada, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Ireland, Italy, Japan, Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Portugal, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, the United Kingdom and the United States.

The US had the highest overall poverty rate (17.0%) of the 17 OECD countries where data was available. Australia (14.3%), Italy (12.7%), the United Kingdom (12.5%), and Ireland (12.3%) had the next highest poverty rates after the US.

[whatever4]

24. Thank you, you seem very informed

I appreciate ALL this information. I'm bookmarking all these :) Could you also give me your own personal opinion, if you were to pick the top few?

[etherealtruth]

30. World wide stats

Woman (and children, the issues intertwine IMO)in the US fare "pretty well" when using worldwide stats (ie We are better off than a woman in Somalia, Afghanistan ...).

US women do not fare so well when compared to women in the industrialized nations.

For a world wide perspective:

http://www.un.org/ecosocdev/geninfo/women/women96.htm

http://www.un.org/womenwatch/

[whatever4]

37. Thank you :) Bookmarked and going to read that too nm

[MojoXN]

38. The Netherlands

[whatever4]

39. That does seem pretty popular nm

[radwriter0555]

40. I am finding france is a great place to be a woman. Health care is great,

you're not disparaged for having a kid and staying home, or having a job and not having a kid, or for doing both!

Men participate in the household much more than in the US. I rarely see a woman out alone with a pile of kids, almost always dad is right there, attentive to the kids, engaged, participating. Women are more relaxed and happy here. They dress great too.

one of our employees hurt her ankle after just a couple weeks on the job; the state will pay her 70% of the wages we were paying to stay home for 2 weeks while it heals; I hear that day care is paid for too, but haven't confirmed it.

I just don't see poverty here... beggers are limited to the professional gypsies; even if you don't have a job, you still have food, a home, education, health care and so on. Socialism is GOOD. YOu can't tell who is rich, middle income or poor. Rich women drive scooters and take the bus... luxury cars are considered silly and usually driven by the british or americans; there is little classism or obvious disparity between the haves and have lesses.... it's pretty cool so far.

[whatever4]

43. hmmm, that sounds worth considering too

Thank you for your personal account, it means a lot.

[Finder]

44. France has similar if not identical problems...

to the US as far as wage gaps and gender issues.

http://www.eiro.eurofound.eu.int/2005/04/feature/fr0504106f.html

Gender equality at work: Where do women stand?
Despite several pieces of legislation, a gender pay discrepancy of around 25% still exists in France. Even though analyses of gender pay discrepancies have highlighted the various types of reasoning behind gender differentiation and segmentation, both in terms of jobs and education and training programmes, they have also stressed the existence (all else being equal) of a kind of residue or pay gap of between approximately 6% and 13% that cannot be explained by these factors.

Far from disappearing, the gender pay gap is still going strong, and even widening inter-generationally. This growth in the discrepancy over a 20-year period for new entrants into the labour market is mainly due to the status of the jobs held by women (especially part-time work). The income gap stigmatises all the jobs occupied by women, including managerial posts: 'a female senior manager earns one-third less than her male counterpart' (Insee Première, March 2004 ).

[Finder]

41. It depends on the culture...

and the individual and is relative to religion, economics, politics. There is no utopia for females as a whole.

I think some countries are better domestically for women while others are better politically or economically.(compared to the US)

As another poster mentioned, most industrialized nations are patriarchal and that in itself involves gender problems. Countries like Sweden(true democracies)have true potential but no diversity of choices.

In the US it seems gender equality is often dependent on the individual's economics but unlike other countries the choices and opportunities are diverse and legally enforced although the fight to keep it that way is ongoing. As you stated, a constant target.

Relative to what I require in a culture as a feminist woman, I think the US is one of the best. We have come a long way and have a long way to go but at least we can fight the battles. In some countries women don't even have that opportunity.

[whatever4]

45. I think you're probably right

I had the feeling there isn't really any place "better", all things and aspects considered. Still not sure, but how to know until one gets there? The real challenge.

I think in some ways what I'm doing is trying to run from the fight. Just tired of fighting. Be nice if there was a place we didn't have to fight. Not to downplay racism, not at all and I'd be a fool if I tried, but to say simply that for many minorities, they may not ever WANT to go to another nation, but yet they HAVE the reality of knowing if they wanted to they could live in another land where they might not be any better off but they wouldn't be a minority. It seems like we're the "minority" no matter where we go, and that's a step above racism. Far more pervasive.

I just wondered if there was a place better than this, and not looking to slide backward, as I think we're doing, and will continue to do, down to unthinkable depths. It's the current trend, mind-bending ideas seeing the light of day and then even passing laws.

haha I want to get out while they'll still LET me have the free will to get out. If there were a place to go, that is.

It's tricky. I'm not even Christian, and as a feminist, I feel surrounded in this nation, surrounded by people who, frankly, don't even want the likes of me around. And, it's not so much whining, as that I'm just plain sick of it. Drains my energies in the frustration, when there are worse problems and more important issues.

Then my idiot state passes abortion restrictions on minors. Same state that saw fit to ban gay marriage in one of the first, early salvos what last year, the year before? I'm just tired of the fight.

[Finder]

46. Fight locally...

I have found it is more effective and less frustrating. "It takes a village to raise a country."(okay, I changed the quote a bit)

[whatever4]

49. I guess that's just it

I...just don't want to fight anymore. My locale, well, the church my son's public school evening band performance was held at...had to go if I wanted him to participate...their pin-up board had only a few things on it, and most prominent were the flyers about the man outraged because his son was exposed to a story in school about a gay couple.

With a war going on, all that church cares about are homosexuals being discussed in public school. And MY public school student son has to be exposed to it, exposed to it all, the bible and Christians are right. Somehow, this is not a violation of church and state? Sure. Fight for them? NO They can keep it, far as I can see, it's going to take a lot of pain and lawsuits and riot type stuff before it changes, narrow-minded puritanical trends meant to strengthen "family values". That is our world, now, and there isn't a damn thing I can do about it.

This is how they want it, this pervasive conformist lifestyle agenda. Looking for people who want better things, for everyone, men and women, straight and gay, not just themselves. Not just for their selfish, self satisfied, fat dumb and happy selves.

[whatever4]

50. Thank you everyone for this discussion, it helps more than I can say nm

[whatever4]

57. And as if I didn't need proof of the overall damage, here's this today

Just had to add this to the topic, show how it hurts everyone. Hating, hurting and discrimiating against women doesn't just hurt women, it creates an unhealthy climate overall. Not just our problem. Not just women.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/hsn/20050915/hl_hsn/sexismmayshortenmenslivesstudy
Sexism May Shorten Men's Lives: Study
THURSDAY, Sept. 15 (HealthDay News) -- In a somewhat unexpected finding, societal male dominance over women -- patriarchy -- may help explain why men have a lower life expectancy than women worldwide.

British researchers analyzed rates of female murders and male death rates from all causes in 51 countries in Europe, Asia, Australasia, and North and South America. The prevalence of violence against women was used to indicate the extent of patriarchal control in each of the countries. Socioeconomic factors were also taken into consideration.

The study found that women lived longer than men in all 51 countries. The study also found that those countries with higher rates of female murders (indicating higher levels of patriarchy) also had higher rates for male death and shorter male life expectancies, compared to countries with lower female murder rates, the researchers said.

In fact, statistical analysis showed that variations between countries in rates of violence against women accounted for close to half (49 percent) of the variation in male death rates, the researchers noted.

[seabeyond]

51. what you dont get. that isnt good enough

just isnt. at any point some man tells me what i am suppose to do or think about me the woman, is the point it is just not good enough.

my father in law says, count yourself lucky, look at other countries.

so what

so what

i am suppose to ignore some man tell me i am worth 2 dollars less than a man, cause some countries stone women for being raped?

what sense does that make

i just simply dont give a shit about some male platitude i should be thankful that a male may get in a "little" trouble for raping me

or some religious freak thinks i should feel the pain of my menstraul cycle because bible talks about womens original sin.

what world are you in?

[whatever4]

53. I feel your unhappiness

though I can't tell if it's directed toward me, as far as "what world are you in"

There just isn't anything like working with men, and listening to them discuss these issues. Like the rape case against that boxer, years ago, they pondered how it could possibly be rape if she willingly walked into a hotel room with him. This was, what, ten years ago, I don't even recall the name of the boxer.

All I remember is hearing how, if she went into the room, she must have wanted to have sex with him

As if rape is sex

As if she wanted to be attacked, in her desires, as if she was asking for THAT

As if walking through the door meant she had no right to say no

To scream no

To tell us all she said no, later, only to find out so many men, most of whom I respect and like, didn't care to hear her any more than he did. Who was it, Tyson? I ought to look it up, but I'm sure you remember and know what I mean.

They thought that since she went with him, she was entitled to any sexual thing he wanted to do to her

As if an 18 year old girl has any idea that a man who is attracted to her wants to hurt her. The girl should know he has other, far more violent things in mind, somehow. She could tell he was "turned on"... and so it was a license to do what he wanted?? Absolutely insane.

But everyday conversation, and it was her fault for being there. Because she should have "known" better. Don't ask me how. I know I certainly would not have. I would have walked into that room easily, as almost any 18 year old would. A famous boxer, one obviously able to overpower me with one arm...why would a woman think he'd want to rape her, when he could have anyone anyway, and the crime would certainly be brought against him?

But no. They blamed her because she didn't realize the danger she was in.

Because we hide the ugly realities of rape. And how it happens, to whom, and how.

They "ought to know better". Though no one is TELLING THEM ANY BETTER, but for some radical feminists who are put down in general, by all sides. The truth of how it all works is discovered too late for the victims to avoid being victims.

Oh, you know, it still hurts my feelings. The guys name was Randy, and older gentleman and such a nice guy. He did crosswords, and I do them myself too, now. He figured if she went into the hotel room with him, she must have wanted to have sex. He said that. He just didn't get it that painful forced sex isn't likely what she wanted at all, and could have had no idea that was what he wanted, until it was too late. When I heard this guy blaming her, a part of me died that day, because I realized how pervasive this is, how meaningless our feelings are to them, and it's not changing one bit. Just so sad. Just so sick of fighting people, many men I respect and care for...they just don't get it. It hurts in many ways, but what hurts the most is the hopelessness.

[seabeyond]

54. to be honest i couldnt read far into your post

just the point of arent we lucky in the u.s. that is all i was addressing in your post. with religion, republicans and male taking us back decades. jsut cannot go back. doesnt work that way. once i know my worth, well hey, i know it. a man isnt going to be able to change my mind

i have all males around me, nephews, sons, husband, brothers and father. no women. lol lol. i am the queen bee, but, i also see the male thinking, a lot. in our house, we work thru it all. what the female abuses, what the male. we talk about it much. many of world problem is hte old battle of male/female

just enough. time to go beyond.

thank you for the reply. very heartfelt, very smart. i didnt read the whole thread either, wink

[whatever4]

56. Thanks, well wishes, keep the toilet seats down ;) nm