My son's 7th grade class was given a lecture on how to say the Pledge

[in_cog_ni_to]

of Allegiance yesterday. I guess the entire class was, uh, shall we say, lackadaisical when saying the Pledge of Allegiance yesterday and the teacher told them that the next time they say the pledge they should be a little more sincere and put more feeling into it because it could be one of their family members over in Iraq fighting for them. :grr:

I told him he was under NO OBLIGATION whatsoever to say the pledge and if he didn't want to say it at all, he had my permission not to. He said last year he never said the pledge, he just stood up and said NOTHING. I told him if that was what he wanted to do, he could. I also told him she had no right to lecture anyone on saying the pledge of allegiance because there's no law saying the students HAD to say it. In fact, THAT is the whole RW argument in favor of keeping "under G-d" in the pledge, is it not? No one has to say the pledge? I feel a fight coming on with this teacher. :(

[rfranklin]

1. Wave you little Red Book with gusto, comrade, or...

you will be sent for reeducation.

[nothometoday]

95. I believe in

Saying the pledge of allegince.
I LOVE my country.........but HATE this adninistration

TWO VASTLY DIFFERENT STORIES.

[baby_mouse]

2. I have to say

That I can't quite understand why this has suddenly become such a hot issue.

[Serial Mom]

4. distraction ... that always happens with this mis-administration

The congress tends to waste taxpayers money being PAID to them on a lot of useless things that don't matter - instead of spending their time READING bills that contain a lot of pork!

[FreedomAngel82]

51. Exactly

They don't have anything else.

[Freddie Stubbs]

61. Congress and the administration did not file a lawsuit challenging

the constitutionality of the Pledge. Some Athiests did that.

[Freddie Stubbs]

60. Because some athiests filed a lawsuit and

a judge said that the Pledge was unconstitutional.

[CBGLuthier]

105. not a true version of events

Several judges, last year or the year before at the apellate level ruled the pledge as now written to be unconstitutional.

The SC did not rule because they found the father who sued did not have custody and therefore did not have the right to sue.

Then, last week, a judge hearing a new, properly filed by custodial parents lawsuit and found that the prior rulng was still in effect.
ANd now my own two cents.

The phrase under god makes the pledge unconstitutional when it is done in a school and led by school (government) officials. Period.

[hootinholler]

72. Umm, I think the court ruling in Ca. had something to do with

Stirring the pot.

-Hoot

[MissMarple]

3. East Moline mom had issues with the pledge,as well.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x1785703

The schools need a heads up on this, it's "settled law". :eyes:

[NuckinFutz]

5. I told my kids pretty much the same thing..

If they don't want to say it, don't. I have a hard time reciting, myself, these days...with or without the 'under god' part.

[in_cog_ni_to]

7. Same here. I don't say it anymore. Knowing what I know

makes it impossible. :(

[TwilightZone]

6. And, the Pledge has what to do with soldiers in Iraq?

I don't recall the Pledge including "and to the soldiers in Iraq". This teacher apparently doesn't teach history.

This does, however, show how easily people buy into blind patriotism and how difficult it is for some people to separate being patriotic from being pro-war or pro-Bush. Support the war! Say the Pledge!

I like the way you handled it. I think your son will grow up knowing how to think for himself.

Edit: typo

[in_cog_ni_to]

10. She's his English teacher.

From what she said and how she said it, it sounds like she has a relative in Iraq? Maybe. At any rate, she has no right to shove her patriotism/support for the war down anyone's throat.

[titoresque]

14. damn straight!

I've been lucky so far especially considering the fact that my kids go to a primarily white Mormon school. My daughter who's in 8th grade sadi that this year her home room teacher doesnt even have the kids say the pledge at all. I was shocked. But I've always told my kids that they do not have to say the pledge and they do not have to stand for it either, and I will back them up if they get in trouble. Most times kids in the elementary/Jr. high age do not want to make a scene so even if they're uncomfortable they will still go along with what the teacher wants....oh to have the opportunity to go back for just one day!!! I'd give some of those teachers a peice of my mind!!!

[in_cog_ni_to]

20. This teacher had better tread carefully.

That's all I'm gonna say. ;)

[Walt Starr]

West Virginia v. Barnett

That's all you have to say. It's settled law. Tell her you will sue her personally for violation of civil rights.

[tanyev]

58. Check your local Republican party website.

She sounds like a very loyal party member.

[tinfoilinfor2005]

91. This isn't an argument, but I belong to the my local chapter of the

Democrat Party and we start every meeting with the Pledge. It is a tradition for us and I enjoy reciting it. A lot of us grew up in times when it was comforting to use traditional symbols as patriotic pride. I don't think anyone would be upset if someone in our group didn't say the pledge, but it certainly isn't a purely republican tradition.

[tanyev]

96. Does the leader of your party admonish anyone they think

is not reciting it sincerely enough? Do they tell you you should put more feeling into it because it could be one of your family members over in Iraq fighting for them? I'm not questioning the recitation of the pledge; I'm questioning the jingoistic demagoguery.

[tinfoilinfor2005]

98. No. Everyone in our group is more interested

in the cookies and punch afterward. :) (just kidden')

[kestrel91316]

111. That would be the "Democratic" party. As any member should know.

[FreedomAngel82]

52. Yes

Especially young kids.

[morgan2]

81. never use the word patriotism about Iraq War lovers

The correct word is nationalism. Patriotism has to do with loving ones country and wanting it to do what is best, not wanting it to be the biggest toughest country on the planet and supporting it no matter what.

[in_cog_ni_to]

101. Good point! I'll remember that.

Thanks. :hi:

[Cha]

131. Yes! Good POint!

They certainly are NOT patriots~

[Veronicrat]

8. Bravo!!

well this country was founded on freedom of religious worship.
It is against the nature of America itself to limit ones individual right to choose which god, if any, we worship.

We of so many races & religiouns, colors & creeds, Bless America. Not God.
we, the people bless America.

I mean whcih god?? there are quite a few. If the teacher gives you a hard time, ask her to which god they are referring?
and what happened to the old gods? to mithras to Isis, even Zues???
Many gods- one universal man-
prehaps we created god in our own image, afterall. & if one has this need it is legitimate.
If you believe, well I believe in you- so I believe your god is true for you. But that is a choice one makes too.

It is very hard, both politics and god should be kept out of the classroom. People who pull "their God" over yours really should rethink the strength of their arguement.
I wish you luck !!
please let us know what happens.

[noonwitch]

9. I had a teacher like that

In fifth grade. He was a man who led his family through Hungary to escape under the Iron Curtain to the west. I respected his love for this country, considering what he risked to get here. His story, which he shared with use, was harrowing and amazing. He had also been a POW of the Nazis in WWII.

When he told us to behave respectfully when saying the pledge, I did so, out of respect for him, too. He was really mad about MIAs and POWs in Vietnam, also, and felt that Washington had forgotten all about them when they exited the war. That was a big issue and he had bumperstickers on his wall that said "MIA/POW Only Hanoi knows", if any of you remember those.

This teacher was profoundly conservative and shared his philosophy with us. As an adult, I don't agree with everything he taught, but he was a valuable teacher who had much wisdom to impart to us.

[brindis_desala]

26. You would think someone with his experience would be more

critical of groupthink and uber patriotism.

[Brother Buzz]

11. My ten-year-old resolved this to his satisfaction

Soon after that Sept. 11 thingy, the American Legion came to his school and instructed (indoctrinated) them on the pledge. Instead of saying Under God, he substituted the line with Under Guard. Oh, to this day, he still uses his own version, he gets it.

[in_cog_ni_to]

13. Smart kid. I'll have to tell my son that one.

He tends to be a little rebel and will love that one, I'm sure.

[bunkerbuster1]

43. or, just think of this cute superhero fella: "One nation...

[in_cog_ni_to]

44. LOL! Oh man. THAT is GOOD! One Nation Underdog.

:rofl: That's good.

[FreedomAngel82]

53. LOL

I love Underdog.

[Cha]

132. We are becoming our

own Underdog!

[Gidney N Cloyd]

12. Anyone remember an old Red Skelton record about the pledge?

(For that matter, does anyone remember 'records'?)

I had a grade school teacher that used to play it for us when we seemed a little less enthusiastic than suited her.

[in_cog_ni_to]

15. "Does anyone remember records?" I do and funny you should ask

because my son and I were in a "collectibles" store one day and we came upon racks of old records. He asked, "What are these things?" LOL! Damn, that made me feel OLD! :)

I don't remember the Red Skelton record about the pledge though. I missed that one. ;)

[Gidney N Cloyd]

16. Time to rent "High Fidelity."

Little father & son movie night.

[in_cog_ni_to]

17. Mother and son movie night.

;)

[FreedomAngel82]

54. LOL

I remember records too (I'm twenty-three). I have an old record of Seasme Street or something like that but I never had a record player though. :( My mom's family though had one and I've heard records from my grandfather that he had and stuff.

[annabanana]

69. you're 23 and you barely remember records?

..........gawd I feel old..........

[kestrel91316]

112. Betcha these young pups don't know about keeping them out of

the sun if they still had the clear plastic wrap on, huh??? LOL

[FreedomAngel82]

124. LOL

I still own one but I never owned a record player so it just stayed in the box LOL. I think I only know records cause my grandparents had one. My mom always told me how she would sit in their living room and listen to records all the time when she was my age. :) She also has one of those really old 8 disc tapes or whatever they were called. I have a really old 80's recorder too that my dad got me once when I was a little kid. Me and a friend used to use it all the time. :)

[TankLV]

86. Thanks - now you've made me feel real old. Thanks a lot.

Sigh.

[expatriate]

122. Young whippersnapper! n/t

[political_invader]

18. Here is the audio to that pledge from Red Skelton

http://www.poofcat.com/july.html

[in_cog_ni_to]

38. Thank you. I can't say I ever heard that and I grew up

watching his show.

[bunkerbuster1]

41. That senile, unfunny clown?

No, I don't remember him whining about not being able to say the Pledge at all. Nope.

[WePurrsevere]

19. Went through the "Pledge" battle w/ a school system 15 yrs ago...

we won.

It all started when my eldest DD (then in junior high) refused to say it because she felt that the "with liberty and justice for all was a lie" and because she knows this country is not under "God" but many and none. The teacher called me up and told me about DD's refusal to say the Pledge, to which my response was "Okay, she has the right not to say what she believes to be a lie. Did she at least stand quietly with her class?" The teacher (brand new & young) said yes but "it's school policy for the children to SAY the Pledge". I told her I understood that she's bound by policy and would call the Principal which I did. Round and round I went with this pompous idiot and got absolutely no where (except the medicine cabinet for 2 aspirins and a Valerian Root). The next morning I called the School System's Supervisor but this time I didn't pull any punches and made it very clear that I would make a "federal and constitutional case out of it" and that I had no problem with contacting a few folks and lawyers that I knew at the local ACLU (at that time I was helping run the Speakers Bureau). At that point the tone changed dramatically from bullying and cajoling to major back peddling and pacifying. :D

Hopefully they'll be happy with him just standing quietly. As long as he doesn't disrupt the class they should be fine since that should truly be their primary concern. It's good that you're willing to go to bat for him if needed. My DD who is mentioned about it 27 and still remembers that incident and considers it one of the highlights of her life because I took her side and went to bat for her on such an important issue.

[in_cog_ni_to]

27. My son's school already knows we will involve the ACLU because of

some religious bigotry we went through last year (he's Jewish) and if I say anything to the Principal about this, the issue will be solved quickly, I'm sure. ;)

I always back my son up on these kind of things. He's free to have opinions too. If he believes in something, he has every right to do what he feels is the right thing for him.

[Behind the Aegis]

129. I remember that "gem!"

Do these people not realize you are the WRONG mom to mess with?! Go get'em!!!

[kath]

74. I'm not sure they can even make the kids stand up. Seems to me they

should be able to sit quietly in their seats if they want to...

[WePurrsevere]

88. No, they can't make them really but standing quietly was something...

my DD felt she could do at the time to show that although she couldn't say the Pledge in good conscience she still loved all her country, it's rights and freedoms and respected those who have fought and even died for it.

This was one of those times that as a parent my "child" actually surprised and truly impressed me. Although she was a rather "normal" semi-obnoxious teenager she actually handled this whole incident quietly and with a lot of restraint (especially for her ;) ).

She's in her late twenties now and is expecting her first baby, and my first grandchild, this Spring. Even though it won't be easy financially for her and her SO I know she'll be a wonderful, loving and supportive Liberal mother. B-)

[FreedomAngel82]

125. Bravo for you!

:) I remember when I was in tenth grade once in a biology class (my first class of the day) there was this guy who didn't stand up and the teacher got a little pissy at him (this was a black lady too :shrug: usually I don't think of them getting quite so pissy). He just stated how he didn't have to and that was it. Nobody in my class really cared either way. We were a really laid back (sorta lazy) class I think.

[Arugula Latte]

21. Arrgh! Damn Pledge.

I also tell my kids they do not have to say it. I don't think I'll have a battle, because we're in Portland public schools, but we'll see ...

[MsTryska]

22. Have him tell the teacher

he wants to do an extra credit report on the pledge.....really play up how folks should take it more seriously and whatnot.



and then explain the history of the pledge, and how it originally didn't have under god in and it was written by a socialist and it was the DAR (i think) who wanted under god put in because they wanted to differentiate us from communists.


and let your son do his report in front of the whole class.

[spuddonna]

25. That's a great idea! Make sure he includes this pic...

This is the Bellamy salute. Francis Bellamy was that socalist author and Baptist minister who wrote the original pledge. The Bellamy salute was dropped when the Nazi's began using the same type of salute...

[MsTryska]

29. wow......

i never knew that salute existed.


that's classic.

[in_cog_ni_to]

31. THAT is unbelievable.

What year did they change that salute? It had to be before my day. I don't remember ever doing that in school. That's sick. :(

[Walt Starr]

34. It was changed in 1942

The year prior to WV v. Barnett.

Yes, little children were forced to issue a Nazi salute and give a loyalty oath daily, until 1942.

[in_cog_ni_to]

42. That's sick. Really.

I cannot believe OUR country forced students do that. :grr: It's so Hitler-ish. :( Damn.

[spuddonna]

47. I was just thinking about that...

I guess if you were alive at the time, the connection between the salute and nazism wasn't as strong as it is now. I guess as some people have referred to it, it was reminiscent of the 'Roman' salute. (Talk about 'empire envy'!)

Wikipedia's entry is even updated with this week's legal proceedings...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pledge_of_allegiance#Versions
2005 District ruling
"On September 14, 2005, U.S. District Judge Lawrence Karlton ruled that requiring the recitation of the Pledge of Allegiance illegal. The judge said he was bound by 2002 precedent of the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals. The finding said that the words "one nation under God" violate the right to be "free from a coercive requirement to affirm God."

[FreedomAngel82]

56. Apparently that's why they changed it

[TahitiNut]

45. The changeover from the "nazi salute" wasn't immediate all over the US.

Some places didn't change for many years, since the teachers did it the way THEY were taught. I even recall doing it after I entered school in 1948 -- but I went to a LOT of schools, since we moved quite a bit. My parents and uncles all remembered the "Roman" salute.

[spuddonna]

46. Thanks Walt!

I kept finding general statements like 'stopped when Nazism became popular' but really could find a yr or date...

[kestrel91316]

113. Wow, I bet my MOM had to do that salute. She was born in 1935.

And my DAD too. OMG

[FreedomAngel82]

127. Maybe that's where the Nazi's got the salute??

[FreedomAngel82]

55. That picture always scares me

[Bouncy Ball]

77. Texas schoolchildren held their

arms out like that while saying the Texas pledge. Then they changed it to arm out, but palm UP. Then they changed it two years ago to keeping the hand over the heart like with the US pledge.

It's so recent, you still see some older kids hold out their arm straight with their palm up when the Texas pledge starts:

"Honor the Texas flag: I pledge allegiance to thee; Texas, one and indivisible."

[MsTryska]

109. hah!

they should just change it to hook 'em horns....

[kestrel91316]

115. Texas - doesn't surprise me. Looks a lot like the religious thing they do

with both hands/arms raised.

[FreedomAngel82]

126. Sounds like a good idea

I'm sure a lot of people don't know a lot about the pledge. I don't remember learning the history. Of course I've been out of school in a while so I just might not be remembering.

[LostinVA]

23. Saying it daily makes the Pledge rote which makes it meaningless

I'm totally against having the Pledge in school period -- it's nationalistic to me, and even worse with the K of C "under God" tacked on. However, the Faktriots demanding the Pledge being said don't even realize that they themselves are turning it into a jumble of muttered, meaningless words... just as the "Hail Mary" became for mw when I said my Rosary when still Catholic. Rote=No Meaning.

[Jack from Charlotte]

59. Is this what you mean.......?

"I plead alignment to the flakes
of the untitled snakes of a merry cow
and to the Republicans
for which they scam
one nacho
underpants
with licorice
and jugs of wine
for owls"

[PermanentRevolution]

70. Hah!

I do believe li'l Bongo gets tied to his chair shortly after that...

[Bigmack]

120. I loved that one....

I had my HS students read the "High School Hell" with Bongo. We all loved it!

I loved Groening's stuff ... especially Akbar and Jeff.

[Walt Starr]

24. Print this out and send it to the teacher with your child

West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnett, 319 U.S. 624 (1943)

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=319&invol=624

This is SETTLED LAW.

[in_cog_ni_to]

30. Thanks Walt!

:hi:

[Walt Starr]

35. Nothing pisses me off more that forcing a kid to say the pledge

Nothing in the world.

It's unfortunate that parents must be scholled in caselaw in order to preserve and protect the rights of their children.

[Ms. Toad]

73. I am confused...

Isn't this your thread?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4769839#4770005

What do you expect a "save the pledge" law would do other than force (or increase the coercion) on children to say the pledge?

Similar laws have mandated saying the pledge daily, mandated that schools make a decision to say the pledge daily or to ban it, and other similar pledge coercive variations which stop just short of requiring our children to say the pledge.

Either it is an appropriate fight and we support our children who do not want to say the pledge by empowering them with knowlege of the law, by educating their teachers, by taking their cases to court, and by working against laws that encourage school districts and teachers to believe it is appropriate to coerce/require the saying of the pledge or we sacrifice it to political expediency.

I don't understand promoting laws that make it easier to force our children to say the pledge and then expressing outrage when a misguided teacher crosses the thin line between coercing and requiring.

[Walt Starr]

92. My proposed law does nothing of the sort

A "Save Our Pedge" act would do nothing more than to affirm what the pledge is.

The purpose fo the law would be nothing more than political cover for the Democratic Party.

It's settled law. One CANNOT force anybody to say the pledge.

If you cannot understand the difference, then you need to go back to school.

[Ms. Toad]

93. So far as I know, you did not articulate any specific act.

The acts I have seen (and that is quite a few) have all been coercive in nature. At the end of the day, every law I have seen either forces or permits local school districts to impose daily recitation of the pledge. Generally these permit non-participation (although some do not expressly permit non-participation). As you must be aware, even just from reading DU, permitted non-participation in the face of daily mass recitation still involves coercion, which in many cases either requires acquiescence on the part of the unwilling child or litigation to resolve.

Under the current court composition the child will ultimately win, although there are no guarantees after the second Bush appointee changes the composition of the court. Nonetheless, I don't think it is appropriate to place the burden of litigating bad law on the backs of the parents of these children just because enacting an unconstitutional law will provide political cover.

If you expect folks to understand that you are proposing something fundamentally different than the vast majority of laws that have been passed on this topic, you might want to articulate it beyond reciting a title.

[Walt Starr]

100. You had better cite the acts

because I'm calling you on this bullshit. There has not been any law proposed in the United States Congress that would coerce students to say the pledge since WV v. Barnett. Stating so is false on its face.

It's settled law.

[Ms. Toad]

103. You are misquoting what I said.

Here is what I said:

Similar laws have mandated saying the pledge daily, mandated that schools make a decision to say the pledge daily or to ban it, and other similar pledge coercive variations which stop just short of requiring our children to say the pledge.

and

The acts I have seen (and that is quite a few) have all been coercive in nature.

I did not indicate (and frankly do not know) whether there have been any federal laws along these lines. Here is a summary of the many similar laws to which I was referrring.

http://www.ecs.org/clearinghouse/47/20/4720.htm

As you can see, as of the date of the summary, seven states REQUIRED students to recite the pledge (two may be excused by parental request) Most of the states mandate regular recitation in school.

In addition, regardless of whether participation is formally required. when regular pledge recitation is mandated it is coercive in nature. Putting children in a classroom, particularly children in elementary school, with a teacher telling them to stand, place their hand over their hearts, and engage in a group recitation of the pledge is coercive unless the teacher/school explicitly invites those children who want to participate to do so - or explicitly permits those children who do not want to participate to avoid doing so. How would a child in elementary school distinguish between being required to line up to go out for recess from being required to stand to recite the pledge unless the teacher specifically indicates s/he may choose not to participate (I believe informing children of their right not to participate is only required by Arkansas and Oklahoma).

The fact that it is settled law does not mean that legislative bodies respect it. When a legislative body enacts a conflicting law, the burden falls on the shoulders of individual families to conform the statute to the settled law.

As indicated, if your "political cover" act would be substantially different from these it would have been appropriate to share something about its substance, since these laws were (for the most part) enacted in an effort to "save our pledge."

[Walt Starr]

104. It DOES NOT MATTER WHAT THE FUCK STATES DO!!

This is SETTLED LAW. No matter what acts some fucked up Texas Lagislature decides to pass, it does not trum,p SCOTUS precedent in WV v. BArnett.

I proposed Federal legislation that basically does nothing. YOU are the one who stated that would cause COERCIVE pledge requirement. YOU WER EUNDER THE BURDEN OF PROOF.

You misdirected and failed the debate.

I win.

[Ms. Toad]

110. Hardly.

You asked for proof of my "bullshit." I provided it, including references to statutes which not only coerce, but require, participation in reciting the pledge.

You have, so far, declined the invitation (a few posts up) to distinguish your proposal from all of the others that have been passed in the name of saving the pledge.

If your proposal is not different, it is just a federal layer of the same unconstitutional state garbage that individuals (and their parents) will have to go to court to have declared unconstitutional before they are able to exercise their constitutional right to refuse to participate in reciting the pledge.

From my perspective, dumping that additional burden on individuals is not an appropriate price to pay for any political cover gained by jumping on the save the pledge bandwagon.

[Walt Starr]

137. You provided nothing except a redirect

Prove it to me. CITE THE DAMNED FEDERAL LEGISLATION WHIC COERCES A CHILD TO SAY THE PLEDGE.

You can't because your claim was BULLSHIT.

[Ms. Toad]

138. It'a a tad hard to defend something I never said.

Let me know when you can provide a link to any post in which I claimed federal legislation coerced children to say the pledge and I'll go research federal legislation. I won't even limit your search something I said to this thread.

Until then (or until you actually provide some detail about your proposed legislation) there's not much point in continuing the discussion.

[Walt Starr]

139. Yes, you ABSLUTELY DID say it

My post dealt with strictly the Federal level, ergo, any response to that post deals strictly with the federal.

Either that, or you redirected earlier.

[Ms. Toad]

140. As I said,

Let me know when you can provide a LINK to any post in which I claimed federal legislation coerced children to say the pledge and I'll go research federal legislation. I won't even limit your search something I said to this thread.

Until then (or until you actually provide some detail about your proposed legislation) there's not much point in continuing the discussion.

[CBGLuthier]

106. I think maybe you are the one needing schooling

Just as it is OK for a student to pray but not for the employees of the school to lead prayer it is OK with me if anyone wants to say the pledge in a school, so long as it is not an activity led by school (government) officials.

It's that damn pesky first amendment again.

TYhere are two solutions for people.

Revert to the old pledge or school your kids yourself either privately or at home.

But so long as MY tax dollars pay for schools I want the lie-filled, government endorsed religion pledge out.

[zanne]

28. But...but....nobody's FORCED to say it!

Every time I hear a Republican say that, I want to hit them with a stick. I'm sure that most kids, in most schools, DO have to say it or be rebuked by the teacher. There was an audio going around a few months back of a kid being threatened and manhandled by a teacher for not standing up for the plege...does anybody have it?

[in_cog_ni_to]

32. I remember that! The kid took a video with his phone as the teacher

abused him. I remember. :(

[progressivebydesign]

33. 7th grade? That teacher really knows how to make their own life miserable

You just don't lecture 7th graders that way, they hate it. And, they'll hate you. One thing if it's 4th graders, but by 7th grade the kids usually have their own beliefs and ways of doing things. That teacher is being pretty stupid.

[EstimatedProphet]

36. I got one of those in 9th grade

Civics teacher was a real blowhard. Insisted that everyone say the Pledge with "correct pronunciation". The actual meaning of the Pledge was lost on him.

[EnfantTerrible]

37. I would already be in a fight with that teacher.

The fight has come, IMO.

[in_cog_ni_to]

40. I'm patient.

:) I'm waiting to see if she's persistent on this issue and THEN she will wish she hadn't been.

[EnfantTerrible]

75. Well...

Patience is not my strong suit. This much I know about me. :evilgrin:

[lapislzi]

39. My daughter (6th grade) doesn't say it

I have had words with the principal over it and the singing of "God Bless America," which makes me :grr: when perfectly appropriate and wonderful songs like THE NATIONAL ANTHEM and "This Land is Your Land" :7 are passed over.

Oh yes...they know me in school. My daughter has no trouble over not saying the pledge.

[young_at_heart]

48. Go to the principal or higher

As a retired teacher I can tell you that strategy will (hopefully) get results. Principals HATE to get reports of problems with their teachers. There are, unfortunately, many teachers who get carried away with their "power".

[Bill McBlueState]

49. a lecture on how to say the pledge???

You know what would be cool? If seventh graders were learning ALGEBRA and doing SCIENCE LABS instead of this crap. In Europe and Asia, school is for learning things, not for stupid little patriot games, and they're kicking our asses in science and technology.

[yankeedem]

63. Yea really

No wonder we are falling behind the world. Between pledge and fundies trying to argue with science, it's amazing any jobs requiring a brain are left.

[FreedomAngel82]

50. I guess they forgot the first amendment eh?

[Dorian Gray]

57. If he's in a public school

you are 100% correct. If you are in a private school, however, the school will have to right to lecture the kids re: this, unless changed legally.

[in_cog_ni_to]

65. He is in public school. n/t

[Left_Winger]

62. I am a public school teacher and a veteran

I do not force my students to recite the pledge and I never have. I inform them that if they really mean it, then do it. If they choose not to say it, then remain seated and be respectful of those who do. Also, to those who do recite the pledge, be respectful of those who choose otherwise. I believe that if one is forced to say the pledge, then it looses all meaning and becomes an instrument of totalitarianism. When I explain this to them most agree with my position.

I teach in a very republican area and there are some rather zealous individuals who attempt to belittle those who do not do as they do. Personally, I do not say the pledge, I simply stand there and remain silent. One of these overly "patriotic" individuals called me unpatriotic in my class. I ignored him until the next day when I brought my old USMC uniform to class, complete with ribbons, and hung it next to the flag in my room. I then looked this young person in the eye and asked him to call me unpatriotic again. He did not. The other students looked at him and I think it "clicked" in their minds just what was happening.

[in_cog_ni_to]

64. Great story.

I bet the kid felt about 2 inches tall. :) I hope he learned a lesson.

[Bouncy Ball]

79. Good for you.

I wish all teachers had your attitude. I didn't force my students to say it, either.

[Parche]

66. pledge

The troops are not fighting in Iraq for our freedom
that is Republican propaganda!!

[in_cog_ni_to]

67. Exactly.

And that is precisely what the woman will hear from me if she continues this crap.

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

68. most free countries do not force people to recite pledges

'Most countries that call themselves "free" do not force people to recite pledges. A German reporter* recently interviewed me for a story on American patriotism. I asked her if children in Germany had to recite a Pledge of Allegiance. She gasped. Absolutely not. "We don't do anything like that in Germany."

Children in Germany are not required to sing patriotic songs or to salute their government. German schools have not had such rituals since the days of Hitler. This journalist was born after World War II, so she never witnessed anything of this nature until she came to America and visited a grade school to research her story.

She told me of her experience. With her voice barely above a whisper, the reporter confided, "It seemed weird to me." Watching the American grade school children, she said, reminded her of the old images of Hitler Youth. '

http://www.geocities.com/hatredsucks/pledge.html

[proud2BlibKansan]

71. It's a law in MO and in many other states

that the kids at school have to say it regularly. MO's law is once a week.

[Solon]

123. I remember doing that stupid shit in elementary school, and first year...

of middle school in Missouri, but it pretty much stopped there. Didn't say it since, in a classroom setting. Maybe its school board discretion?

[Bouncy Ball]

76. Put it in writing.

In Texas it IS a state law, and the parent has to write a note. I don't think you're in Texas, but write a note anyway. Send copies to the principal and assistant principal. Keep a copy for yourself. Explain that as an American living in a free country, your son doesn't want to say the pledge, he shouldn't have to, and you support him in this.

If there is any fallout (and that is a very real possibility) be prepared and prepare your son to deal with that. Let school personnel know you will not tolerate your son being treated badly by teachers or administrators for this very valid decision.

Period.

If you need to, there's quite a bit of legal support for your son's side of this. You can bring that up.

[Bouncy Ball]

78. Oh and btw, I have worked with teachers

who got up in kids' faces (middle school) and screamed at them to stand up and SAY THE PLEDGE NOW.

I'm not kidding, screaming an inch off their face. Then bragging about it to other teachers later.

Pretty sick stuff.

Most older kids just mouth it or don't even bother to mouth it.

[LWolf]

80. Wow.

22 years in education, and I've never made a kid, or seen anyone make a kid, say the pledge who didn't choose to. I guess I've been lucky!

I did work for a principal for a few years who got a little testy; he insisted that the abstainers "stand to show respect." I passed this directive on, and just never "noticed" the kids who may have sat politely rather than getting up.

While my school says the pledge every morning, and I stand with them, I rarely say it myself. I don't choose to make that pledge, as a private choice. I don't pledge anything on demand. I've never been censored in any way for that choice.

[Bouncy Ball]

84. I see you're in Oregon.

Here they say the pledge, then the Texas pledge, then a full minute of silence. Even the rare child who has a parent note on file that they don't have to say the pledge still has to stand for all three of those things.

To get around it, like I said, most kids just mouth it or stand there with their hand over their heart and don't even move their lips. Some teachers choose to make an issue of it, some look the other way.

[LWolf]

90. I'm in Oregon now,

but spent most of my career in CA. Always in conservative areas. I credited the right-wingers surrounding me all my life for shifting me even farther to the left than my natural inclinations, seeking some sort of balance.

That there are places in the U.S. that are more extreme than those I've lived in is truly disheartening.

[Telly Savalas]

82. Shouldn't your son be conjugating verbs and learning algebra?

It is a goddamn school, right? Not a Patriot Youth Indoctrination Center?

[Left Is Write]

83. Soldiers in Iraq are fighting for people here?

Interesting.

Even if they WERE fighting for our freedom, which is obviously not true, wouldn't that freedom include the freedom not to say the Pledge?

[newspeak]

85. stand

my friend was on the front lines in Vietnam, he will stand, but he will not say the pledge of allegiance. He stated that he saw how they did the body counts and after being burned from Agent Orange, they would stack the bodies like wood. They were counting children, the elderly, sometimes our own soldiers. He knows what happened in Vietnam and refuses to pledge.

[notadmblnd]

87. I asked my son yesterday what happens with the pledge in his school

he said it's not an issue, they don't say the pledge of allegiance at his school nor is the national anthem played. We live in Michigan and he attends school in a very democratic city so I don't know if this is a regional issue or what.

I remember the pledge when I went to elementary school in the 60's but by the time I was in Jr. high school and high school it was not an issue for me either.

[etherealtruth]

99. Don't know where you live ...

That has (and is) my experience in Suburban Detroit. My 7th grade daughter and 4th grade son report that their schools do not say the "Pledge."

I am so glad you posted as I was wondering what the experience of other residents of the state have experienced ... i wonder what the schools do on the west coast of the state?

[notadmblnd]

102. we live in Auburn Hills

but he attends school in the West Bloomfield School district.

[Stang8az28]

130. On this side of MI

It is an issue. But the grand rapids area is notoriously uber-conservative. thank God my son lives with his mother in the detroit area. He is special needs and when they tried to force him to say the pledge ( in the grand rapids area) and he couldn't he was reprimanded. his suspension was rescinded real quick when i threatened to involve the ACLU and the press.

on another note. I have a problem with the pledge of allegiance, not because of the phrase "under GOD", but because of a much more important issue. I will fight until my dying day protecting my son from any government propaganda, liberal or conservative. He has as much right to an opinion as anybody else, all children do. Indoctrinating kids who do not realize they have options is the first step in creating a state where their personal civil liberties and rights can be chipped away slowly until there is nothing left.

Keep fighting the good fight

Dan

[Kellanved]

89. there are numerous reports about exchange students forced to say it

Either by direct request of school personnel or by group pressure.

Personally I don't see the point.

[Redstone]

94. Don't back down. Kick ass, take names.

I salute you, and ESPECIALLY your kid...he's a good independent thinker.

Hang in there.

Redstone

[Jamastiene]

97. Ooooooooh. That totally pisses me off. If someone feels it,

then they should show it, but if they are being forced to say it, faking it is disrespectful. I won't tell my aunt about that one. She's a vet. She'll be furious. To tell the truth, I'm :mad: too. They should be taught that America is a place based on the idea of freedom and dreams of ideal principles and then allowed to make their minds up at that point. Other than that, making them say the pledge with no meaning behind it and being told to fake it is repulsive. Considering the fact that most of the time they are saying it with the American Flag in the room with them, they should either mean it or don't say it. There is no reason to make something undignified by faking it. That's horrid.

[warrens]

107. under god is unconstitutional

Tell the bitch that until she follows the constitution, no pledge for your kid, who should be able to leave the room if he wants to.

[in_cog_ni_to]

116. I just asked my son TODAY how she's been and he said, "fine"

I asked him what he's doing during the pledge and he said he's just standing up and saying nothing. I reiterated to him that he is under NO OBLIGATION whatsoever to say the pledge and if the bitch says one word to him, I want to know about it. He said one kid was standing and saluting the flag (since her little lecture) during the pledge. He thought that was hilarious. ;)

[leftchick]

108. they say AMEN at the end of the Pledge here in NC!

at least at the ball games I have been to. :eyes: :puke:

[Bouncy Ball]

114. They should say RAMEN!

PARMESAN!

I was touched by his noodly appendange...

[in_cog_ni_to]

117. AMEN? Oh no. That would send me over the edge!

:crazy:

[Cha]

118. Sounds like this teacher(?)

needs a little mano a mano with you, incognito!

She's brainwashing the kids.

Edit~to say..and that's kinda unusual cause all the teachers I know think this War On Iraq was Bogus from the get go.

[in_cog_ni_to]

119. Yeah. That's why I think she has a family member in Iraq.

From what she said and HOW she said it, makes me think she has a son, daughter, nephew, niece, grandson, or grandaughter? in Iraq. She's an older lady so I don't think it could be her husband. She'll hear from me if she says one more thing about it. :) So far, she's kept her mouth shut about my son not saying the pledge. We'll see what happens.

[NotHappyGal]

121. Pledge

You should be teaching him that he should be happy to be an American and have the right to say or not say the Pledge.
Just because you don't believe in god should not be a reason not to believe in American. Things like this give liberals a bad name and leave us open to be called unamerican.

[Bridget Burke]

133. We need a committee to investigate Unamerican Activities!

Call your Senator & Congressional Rep today.

[Cha]

134. Excuse me, where does it say..

incognito, "does not believe in God"? And whether she does or not as no bearing on her son's choice not to say the pledge of alligence.

And as for giving "Liberals a bad name"..the fascist mudering snouts are the ones always trying to do that and I could give a shit what they have to say.

Liberals are the only ones who have done any good for this country. Pass that on.

[ladylibertee]

128. Oh Snap....Keep us posted

[cbear70]

135. both my children had lectures

The teachers told them that the pledge is for our freedom and that is to be celebrated, the war is for our freedom and that is to be supported. And then yesterday they celebrated Constitution day...the entire school, every teacher is preaching to the kids about the pledge..

so frustrating.. I sat down and talked with both of my kids too.

[Danmel]

136. Have him recite it one of these ways- that should get his teacher going:

Spanish:

Yo prometo lealtad a la bandera de los estados Unidos de America, y a la Republica que representa, una Nacion bajo Dios, entera, con libertad y justicia para todos."


German:

" Ich gelobe Treue auf die Fahne der Vereinigten Staaten von Amerika, auf die Republik, die eine Nation unter Gott ist, vereinigt durch Freiheit und Gerechtigkeit fur alle."


The ever popular French:

"J´engage ma fidelité au drapeau des États-Unis d´Amérique et à la République qu'il répresente, une nation sous Dieu, indivisible, avec liberté et justice pour tous."


Portuguese:

" Eu prometo lealdade à bandeira dos Estados Unidos da América, e à República a qual representa, uma Nação abaixo de Deus, indivisível, com liberdade e justiça para todos."


Dutch:

"Ik Zweer Trouw aan de vlag van de Verenigde Staten van Amerika en aan de Republiek waarvoor zij staat, één Natie onder God, ondeelbaar, met vrijheid en gerechtigheid voor allen"


That should piss her off.