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Minstrel Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-05 03:27 PM
Original message
You want to attack Hugo Chavez?
Edited on Fri Sep-16-05 03:32 PM by Minstrel Boy
You choose, at this hour of this world crisis, to expend your energy bashing the most progressive and inspirational statesman with the greatest democratic mandate? The only leader who doesn't mince words or actions about the illegitimacy and criminality of the Bush White House and the venality of neoliberalism?

At this time, as we totter on this precipice, it's Hugo Chavez you call a "Fascist" and "Dictator"?

April 22, 2002: the announcement Chavez has "resigned"


From Chavez's closing remarks at the 2005 World Social Forum:

"If we don't make that better world possible, if we fail, and through the rifles of the U.S. Marines, and through Mr. Bush's murderous bombs, if there is no coincidence and organization necessary in the south to resist the offensive of neo-imperialism, and the Bush doctrine is imposed upon the world, the world will be destroyed."

A soldier loyal to Chavez as the people converge on the presidential palace


"One day the decay inside U.S. imperialism will end up toppling it, and the great people of Martin Luther King will be set free. The great people of the United States are our brothers, my salute to them.... We must start talking again about equality. The U.S. government talks about freedom and liberty, but never about equality. They are not interested in equality. This is a distorted concept of liberty. The U.S. people, with whom we share dreams and ideals, must free themselves… A country of heroes, dreamers, and fighters, the people of Martin Luther King, and Cesar Chavez."

Chavez greeted, after the coup is overturned


But it's Chavez you attack?

History's most celebrated constitutions are revolutionary documents. From the 1999 Constitution of the Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela:

Article 132 states that everyone has the duty to fulfill his or her social responsibilities through participation in the political, civic, and community life of the country with the goal of promoting and protecting human rights as the foundation of democratic coexistence and social peace. Article 133 repeals forcible recruitment into the armed forces, but recognizes everyone’s duty to perform civilian or military service as may be necessary for the defense, preservation, and development of the country.

Article 135 says that the state’s obligation to the general welfare of society does not preclude the obligation of private individuals to participate according to their abilities. These duties describe participation much beyond the electoral process. They compel the public to see themselves as not so much the governed masses, but as active builders of their own society.


Venezuelans and their constitution


And yet, you attack Chavez?

Recently the Venezuelan government distributed a million free copies of Don Quixote to celebrate its 400th anniversary and the success of its literacy program. "To some extent, we are followers of Quixote," said Chavez, as he encouraged Venezuelans to "feed ourselves once again with that spirit of a fighter who went out to undo injustices and fix the world."

But it's Chavez who is the enemy?



Who might your friends be?
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understandinglife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-05 03:30 PM
Response to Original message
1. Well done. Recommend. Thank you.
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Team44Car Donating Member (114 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-05 03:32 PM
Response to Original message
2. Hugo just gets better and better. Amazing fellow.
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asthmaticeog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-05 03:34 PM
Response to Original message
3. Who on DU has been attacking Chavez?
I want names, my ignore list has lots of room for growth.

Nominated for "Greatest," BTW. You did an excellent job building this post.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-05 03:36 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
dhinojosa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-05 03:42 PM
Response to Reply #6
10. Hey don't attack someone just because they want to know more...
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Bouncy Ball Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-05 03:43 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. I hardly think that's the poster he's referring to.
You wrote the OP warning us about Chavez (LOL)and Blackwater is in there saying Chavez is a fascist.

The guy asking for more information isn't saying one way or another, it seems, so I don't think MB is talking about him.
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dhinojosa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-05 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #11
17. The post I linked has "I have no evidence, but -"
Is there another post that has that?
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Minstrel Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-05 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #17
44. That is the one I intended.
The poster wrote "He is a dictator. I have read about cases where he has had people disappear. He is no progressive." and when challenged replied "I have no evidence." Sorry, but the "convince me I'm wrong, I'm open minded" line doesn't convince me. That mind has been made up, in opposition to a mountain of contrary evidence.
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-05 05:14 PM
Response to Reply #10
57. "don't think Hugo is a good guy", "Radical" "assholes...wee widdle dicks",
"like this asshole (pic of Bush)"
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=4794597&mesg_id=4794597

And now you're saying you just wanted to know more about Chavez?

Bizarre.


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Bouncy Ball Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-05 03:37 PM
Response to Reply #3
8. No kidding, I mean what the fuck?
The guy who was told he only had five minutes to speak at the UN and said screw that if bush can speak for 20 minutes so can he. Rock on Chavez.

The guy who fights for the poor in his country. How the hell can any liberal have a problem with THAT?

Of course I don't understand how ANYONE can have a problem with that, but there you go.
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asthmaticeog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-05 04:52 PM
Response to Reply #8
50. Hey, Bouncy Ball!
Have you not been on in awhile? I don't think I've seen you in some time. :hi:
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donheld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-05 05:53 PM
Response to Reply #50
60. I think you're right about Bouncy Ball being AWOL
how shall we administer punishment? :evilgrin:
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-05 03:35 PM
Response to Original message
4. Bravo!
Edited on Fri Sep-16-05 03:35 PM by redqueen
:applause:

Thanks, MB... you always put these things so well...

Puzzling that, as you said, the ONLY leader to speak the plain truth about Bush is being called into question on this site... puzzling, indeed.
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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-05 03:36 PM
Response to Original message
5. You want to attack George W. Bush?
The man who is protecting freedom against those who wish to destroy America? The only leader who stands up against bin Ladin and Saddam Hussein?

3000 people died in the World Trade Center. But it's Bush who is the enemy?

Who might your friends be?
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Just Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-05 03:50 PM
Response to Reply #5
15. Bush neither protects my freedom or my security,let alone my interests.
He has sacrificed my freedom and security and interests in order to serve the corporacrats who exploit our people and our nation.

Bush IS an enemy to our democracy, to equality, to our nation's security and growth, and to opportunity for all Americans.
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fujiyama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-05 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #15
35. The sad thing is
I can't tell whether the post you replied to was sarcastic or serious.
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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-05 04:19 PM
Response to Reply #35
42. Sarcastic. n/t
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fujiyama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-05 04:41 PM
Response to Reply #42
46. That's good to know
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LincolnMcGrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-05 03:37 PM
Response to Original message
7. K & #5R
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Jon8503 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-05 03:38 PM
Response to Original message
9. Alright; Go Minstrel Boy - Thanks & Recommended/N/T.
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Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-05 03:44 PM
Response to Original message
12. There's like, 2 or 3 people here who consistently grind the anti-Chavez
Edited on Fri Sep-16-05 03:45 PM by impeachdubya
axe, that's it...

(For some reason, they're the same names that turn up in threads about how the poor Pope is misrepresented when people call bullshit on things like his bass-ackwards stances on Gays and contraception. Who knows, maybe there's a connection there...)

As far as I'm concerned, he seems to be doing good things for the poor of his country, and he's democratically elected, which is a fuckload more than I can say for Bush or some of the goons, like the Family Saud, that he sucks up to.

And I have no doubt that the attempted coup against Chavez a few years ago was Chile redux, and I'm certain Bush's grubby prints were all over it. So much for "spreading democracy", eh?

Anyway, nice post.

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Qibing Zero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-05 03:46 PM
Response to Original message
13. Very nice!
I just posted a thread with a little bit of a rant about this too, but yours reads better, and has pictures! ;)
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meganmonkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-05 03:49 PM
Response to Original message
14. I am glad you posted this
I think it is difficult for some to get their brains reprogrammed from the way we learn history and world events in our schools.

A fact or two may help clear things up.

:toast:
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dhinojosa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-05 03:50 PM
Response to Original message
16. Sorry my allegiance is with my country, the USA
For better or worse, I love my country, and I love the democratic party. I also know that's how you feel too (otherwise you wouldn't be here) ;)

Because I love this country and my party, I don't see how declaring love for Chavez is the smart thing to do. Venezuela is very volatile, and such overjoy for Chavez can hurt all of us if things go wrong between our two countries.
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killbotfactory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-05 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. If the US wasn't covertly trying everything to take him down
by any means necessary, you might have a point about the relations between the two countries.

I know Chavez hasn't tried to violently overthrow our government. I can't say the same thing about Bush in regards to Venezuela.
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Bouncy Ball Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-05 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #16
20. How?
How can an individual American saying "hey, yeah, that guy's got some great points" hurt our country?


It's not like anyone on this website is in any kind of policy making position for the US. Or Venezuela.

You go ahead and feel scared of voicing opinions. I'm going to point out good when I see good and bad when I see bad no matter what country it belongs to, and that includes mine.

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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-05 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. How?
How can an individual American saying "hey, yeah, that guy's got some bad points" help the Bush* regime?
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dhinojosa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-05 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. I don't have a problem with "Hey those are some great points"
All leaders have those. I have a problem with the overbearing shit like "I wish Chavez were our president"

That's all.
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Bouncy Ball Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-05 04:28 PM
Response to Reply #23
45. Nothing wrong with wishes.
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0007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-05 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #23
52. I'd gladly give Venezuela ten junior's for one Hugo Chavez
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lostnfound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-05 05:08 PM
Response to Reply #52
55. Or one junior for ten Chavez's!!
Either way, it works.

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Minstrel Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-05 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #16
24. well, first of all,
I'm a Canadian. But most of all, I'm an internationalist. In a round about way, that's why I'm here.

But your response kind of alarms me. Are you saying that "if things go wrong" between the US and Venezuela, that its more important for Democrats to be lockstep, dittoheaded America Firsters than on the side of justice and truth?
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dhinojosa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-05 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #24
28. Nah,
There is always potential that Venezuela can slip into a dictatorship. Its a new regime and it go either one way or the other. If Venezuela slips into a dictatorship where political opponents are tortured, killed, etc. I don't want words like "I want Chavez as our president" to come back at us.
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Just Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-05 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #16
37. I love my country and my people, too. The BushCo/neoCON regime,...
Edited on Fri Sep-16-05 04:11 PM by Just Me
,...exploits both rather than serves the interests of "the people". I embrace Chavez because he is quite earnest about his service to "the people" of his nation. Moreover, "if things go wrong between our two countries", it will be due to our corporation-sucking frauds in charge who hold no respect, whatsoever, for democracy here or abroad.

I, for one, resolutely refuse to support corporate-driven force based upon unleashed greed for power and profit.
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-05 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #16
53. It's better for more Venezuelans then ever before
The wealth of natural resources is shared; schools and hospitals are repaired, poverty is being eliminated, literacy is improved, the army is used mostly as a public works force. There's freedom of the press, freedom of religion, freedom of politics. Chavez put an end to the rule of the wealth-hoarding corporate elite that created the poverty and illiteracy in the first place.
Governments of other nations including the US should follow the example.
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arcane1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-05 03:51 PM
Response to Original message
18. and this:
Chavez Gives Land Titles to the Indigenous

By THAIS LEON, Associated Press Writer
Tue Aug 9,10:02 PM ET

Six of Venezuela's indigenous communities received title to their ancestral lands on Tuesday in a ceremony that Venezuela's president said reversed centuries of injustice.

President Hugo Chavez said he hoped the government would be able to turn over titles to 15 other indigenous communities by the end of the year.

"What we're recognizing is the original ownership of these lands," Chavez said during the ceremony. "Now no one will be able to come and trample over you in the future."

He was joined by Kari'na Indians wearing traditional dress, face paint and strings of colored beads.

But Chavez warned that the process of granting legal ownership must respect Venezuela's "territorial unity," and he urged other indigenous groups not to ask for "infinite expanses of territory."

"Don't ask me to give you the state's rights to exploit mines, to exploit oil," Chavez said. "Before all else comes national unity."

The documents recognize land ownership by six indigenous communities with some 4,000 people and territory covering 314,000 acres in the eastern states of Anzoategui and Monagas.

One woman from the Kari'na community thanked Chavez, saying: "He has been the first president who has kept his word to a people who have been stripped of their lands."

An estimated 300,000 Venezuelans belong to 28 indigenous groups, many living in the country's sparsely populated southeast.

South American countries have made various efforts to grant indigenous groups legal ownership and control over their traditional territories.

In neighboring Colombia, indigenous groups in officially recognized communities can administer justice, receive state funds and have their own government.

Brazil has set aside more than 12 percent of its territory for indigenous communities, and in Peru various laws declare the rights of indigenous groups to ancestral territory in the Amazon.

But problems have arisen in some countries as miners and loggers have moved onto Indian lands. And in various countries, a key debate has revolved around the state's rights to what lies underground, such as oil and mineral wealth.


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Moderator DU Moderator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-05 05:46 PM
Response to Reply #18
58. arcane1
Per DU copyright rules
please post only four
paragraphs from copyrighted
news source and provide
a link to the source.

Thank you.


DU Moderator
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donheld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-05 05:58 PM
Response to Reply #18
61. Arcane1 That should be shouted from the house tops
Thanks for posting. Can you provide a link?
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earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-05 03:54 PM
Response to Original message
21. Thank you Minstrel Boy! You TOTALLY ROCK!
:yourock:
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Just Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-05 03:56 PM
Response to Original message
25. Thank you for putting these matters in perspective.
Our military-backed corporacrats have a "history" of overthrowing democratically elected leaders who serve the interests of "the people" rather than corporate socialism.

Chavez survived and is focused upon "the people" whose interests he serves.

Whereas, our Corporatocracy serves the interests of profiteers - a fascism in the midst of a nation, our nation, which is suppose to be a beacon of democracy. What an unfortunate fraud these greedy bastards are imposing upon the USA and smaller, democratic countries around the world.
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Balbus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-05 03:57 PM
Response to Original message
26. Do I want to attack Hugo Chavez?
In other words: Do I want to get banned?

No.
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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-05 03:58 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. Oh geez.
No, it's not like that here. Probably a good 70% of my posts go against the grain here because I don't like to post things unless they are novel.
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Minstrel Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-05 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #27
36. And even though, maybe, 70% of the time I disagree with you,
I still appreciate your posts. Maybe because they piss me off thoughtfully.
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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-05 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #36
40. Thank you. n/t
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Qibing Zero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-05 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #27
39. I can attest to this, haha. nt
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-05 04:46 PM
Response to Reply #26
47. You don't get banned for attacking Chavez
But you may get banned for making disgusting remarks.
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peekaloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-05 04:01 PM
Response to Original message
29. Wonder which approach Ted Koppel will take tonight?
Thanks MB.

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KG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-05 04:01 PM
Response to Original message
30. some people on DU just don't get it.
:eyes:
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killbotfactory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-05 04:03 PM
Response to Original message
31. Things I can say about Chavez that I can't about Bush
Edited on Fri Sep-16-05 04:04 PM by killbotfactory
He has allowed free and fair, internationally monitored elections, and has won a majority two times.

He hasn't invaded or bombed another country based on lies and motivated by greed.

He has enacted reforms to help the poor.

He wants education and healthcare to be free.

He's intelligent.

He served in the military and didn't go awol.

He is using oil money to enrich his nation as a whole, and not just a few billionaires with political ties.

He's friends with Castro.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-05 04:24 PM
Response to Reply #31
43. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
LittleClarkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-05 04:06 PM
Response to Original message
32. Actually, I could give a flying fuck about Chavez
I don't attack him. I don't worship him. I don't pay attention to how he governs. If he's a good leader, then bully for the Venezuelans. I hope the CIA leaves him the hell alone. But I have other fish to fry. Congressmen to elect in 2006. Kerry's to apologize for. Bush's to rant at. Busy, busy, busy.
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dhinojosa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-05 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #32
34. Hmmm, I should've taken that angle
Oh well, pandora's box needed to be opened. ;)
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Qibing Zero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-05 04:18 PM
Response to Reply #32
41. International policy is quite important,
or hadn't you noticed these last four years where we've gone from the French saying 'Today we are all Americans' to our current position today?
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LittleClarkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-05 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #41
48. But that doesn't mean I'm interested in either fawning over him
or chasing after him with a pitchfork. I have neither a poster of him on my wall, nor a Chavez voodoo doll with pins in it.

Foreign policy is important as a whole. Why the focus for and against this one guy, dreaming of him as our president when it will never happen etc.

I am aware of him and that he could be the next lucky winner in the "who do we attack next" game. But I don't wish I was in his country or anything.
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damntexdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-05 04:06 PM
Response to Original message
33. No -- I'm applying for a CITGO credit card.
That's already where I fill up.

Join the buycott of CITGO, run on Venezuelan oil, and help a progressive country.
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dhinojosa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-05 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #33
38. CITGO Credit Line is run by Citicorp which donates heavily to Bush
Just pay cash if you feel strong about it.
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burythehatchet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-05 04:49 PM
Response to Original message
49. thank you MB. Well said.
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welshTerrier2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-05 04:54 PM
Response to Original message
51. wonderful !!
thanks for a truly great post ... we pay so little attention to things beyond bush's poll numbers ...

Chavez is a hero because he speaks boldly against American imperialism ...
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Kralizec Donating Member (982 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-05 05:00 PM
Response to Original message
54. Anyone who speaks Truth to Power has my support! n/t
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lostnfound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-05 05:10 PM
Response to Original message
56. And the best thing is, he's not dead yet. Not like Torrijos or Roldos
or Allende or Mossadegh...

Live long.
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donheld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-05 05:50 PM
Response to Original message
59. Minstrel Boy
:yourock:
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Moderator DU Moderator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-05 05:59 PM
Response to Original message
62. Locking...
This is a continuation of an argument from a
thread that has been locked.
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