Sitting in an empty Apartment.

[cyclezealot]

Our dreams are about to come true..We have no furniture. We are lucky enough to retire early and hope the Gopers will not destroy our pensions/ social security.
OUr home is gone.OUr furniture is in storage waiting our purchase of a home in the south of France..Our plane is out of New York mid October as we are about to cross the US by car seeing Yellowstone and WOunded Knee...
We have given up on the shame of the American Dream and with ROberts about to fulfill the Scalia mandate in regards to your civil liberties, we wish you well. Our new French COnstitution has a greater number of Bill of Rights including one something about the right to housing..Can you imagine that here...Good luck. We will hope to help you as "Democrats Abroad."

[valerief]

1. I'm right behind you!

Well, I hope to be someday.

[Seedersandleechers]

3. That may well be the "American Dream"-leaving the country..

[calimary]

27. The NEW "American Dream" you mean.

That would be MY "project for a new American century," anyway.

What I hate is spotting the American flag, or a facsimile of it, and feeling nothing but shame and sadness. What these bastards have grafted onto it, in terms of meaning, is just really sad. How dare they pervert MY flag!?!?!? I'm 52, and I have NEVER felt like this before. And I can remember Vietnam.

PS: Travel safely!

Peace back atcha!

[FreedomAngel82]

66. Yes

Somedays I just feel like leaving. But I don't have the money and I know my parents don't want to leave our family here and all that. *sigh* So the only other thing I have to do is try to fight any way I can. :(

[Lars39]

2. And good luck to you!

You aren't the only DUer to have made the move to France recently. :)

I can't help thinking,though,that you are just postponing the inevitable, and not just avoiding it.

A right to housing...Wow! :jealous: :)

[Bluerthanblue]

4. I, for one, wish you

safe journey, and a happy future. There is a time for everyone of us when we must choose what is best, regardless of what others may say or think. Perhaps this country is too broken to salvage. I hold no grudge, nor pass any judgement upon you for your choice. I wish you only contentment and fulfillment of your dreams..

blu

Bon Voyage, pour maintain. Au demain, mon amiees.

(pardon my rusty, poor handle on your new home tougue)

[chaz4jazz]

5. Deja Vu

It was 1968 and we left, a few days after MLK was assassinated, for the South of France (the Var) and moved into a relic farmhouse in Entrecasteaux. We had given up on the U.S.A.

Ironically, naturally, the French riots of May '68 began while we were there. France became a police state for a few weeks. Our farm was situated not far from a French Air Force Base and Mirage Jets buzzed the place, roaring in low and screaming past overhead.

All in all, it was a great adventure but we returned in time for the Nov election and tried to add our votes to Humphrey's tally only to see Dick Nixon elected. The cycle began again.

And now you are completed it. Good luck. Open the sea urchins with a sissor and scrape them out with a spoon (mind the prickers).

[cyclezealot]

9. Deju vu.

Hello Deju Vu...OUr region will be ROussillon , somewhere near Collioure..We are to look for a home November, December..My wife has dreams of a Gite? Don't know what I think..Will cater to cyclists/divers should her dream come true...
Cycling..Far more friendly in France than USA..for sure..Been to France / Europe 18 times..Five of them bike tours..We host French student exchanges...Have many friends there...
Plan to become socially active in Socialist Party and be what we really are Socialists..Don't know the words of the International yet.

[kestrel91316]

30. Wave HI to the village of Lourmarin in the south Luberon for me...........

I spent a week there in 2001 and it transformed me.

The food and wine ain't bad, either.

[europegirl4jfk]

56. Great! You will be my neighbors!

Well, sort of. I live in the Languedoc region. I came here from Germany some 15 years ago to study at Montpellier University and never left again. It's a great country!

[cyclezealot]

10. Deju Vu

Do you live outside of Viason La Romaine..Stayed at a B & B outside Vaison..Did we stay near you...Love Provence..Favorite French food too.....Movers have our furniture, so we are on our way... Loved the LUberon..Did a bike tour there and climbed the approach to Mt. Ventoux from Sault..What a beautiful area.

[Fleshdancer]

6. Living in the south of France has always been a dream of mine...

If you have internet access in your new home, I hope you'll keep posting on DU. I would love for you to share your experiences.

[mike_c]

7. best wishes, and au revoir....

--sigh--

[StellaBlue]

8. Vive le cyclezealot!

Vive la France!

:woohoo:

[cyclezealot]

11. thanks all for all your well wishes

OUr hopes will be with you and hope we can help you in your struggle for liberty and equality..With so many states with rigged elections..Hope others will take head.

[ninkasi]

12. My best wishes go with you...

If I were single, I would leave today. My husband refuses. All I can do is to stay, and try to make a difference wherever I can. Maybe many of us who have ancestors who came here once from Europe will be deciding that it's time to cross the ocean again, and go back. Mine came here from England, and Scotland, in the early 1600s and settled in Va.

Maybe it's time to go home again.

[bikebloke]

44. Same here

Some ancestor settled in Virginia from Scotland in the 1600's. I wish I could plant the seed else where. I certainly tried, starting back in the ReagaNazi error. Whether it was due to honesty (for not hunkering down illegally), bad luck, refusing to marry some woman for residency papers because I didn't feel for her, who knows. Here I'm stuck. At work, we have a London office. And a couple colleagues over there suggested I come over. Europe's turf I'm quite at home in, but I'd sufficate in London.

[Window]

13. How wonderful!!

The very best to you and yours.

Thanks for sharing some GOOD news!

Peace

[Straight Shooter]

14. I hope I still have the choice to leave in 2 years.

That's my timetable for going, because I want to learn the language first, and learn it well. I just hope there aren't fences, visible or invisible, around the borders of America which prevent my leaving.

Best wishes to you, safe journey, and may your new home bring you joy and contentment.

[CrispyQ]

109. Straight Shooter,

Are you taking a class or learning French on your own? If on your own, can you recommend good learning materials -- software, books, tapes? I would like to learn it in preparation for a possible move to our neighbors to the north.

[spindoctor]

15. Bon voyage

Far be it from me to rain on your parade, but you will find that France has its own set of issues.

Salut maintenant!

[Ariana Celeste]

16. Beautiful.

Good luck with that, I'm envious~ lol. The man and I have considered moving to Germany, where a good chunk of his family lives, but we just don't think we are ready.

[Deja Q]

17. Bye

Be sure to piss on our gravestones as you walk out the door...

BTW: Ultimately, nowhere is safe.

Oh, did you check France's unemployment rate? I hope it isn't higher than the United States'...

[cyclezealot]

21. We lie out our arse in the US about Unemployment.

One day off unemployment compensation and you are no longer legally unemployed..Consider the abandoned citizens-I am sure the US unemployment rate is every bit as high as Europes.

[U4ikLefty]

78. Wow..."Be sure to piss on our gravestones as you walk out the door"???

That was just nasty & mean!!!

[Arugula Latte]

18. Wow. What an adventure.

The south of France. God, how beautiful. And the food. And the architecture. And the scenery. And the history. Oh man.

It would be hard for me to leave this country -- it would mean leaving family.

[donco6]

19. Hope to join you someday.

Good luck to you.

[bluestateguy]

20. As long as you stay registered to vote and vote

As I always say, these red staters like to breed, so we need every vote we can get.

[Mairead]

22. How does this compare to White people fleeing New Orleans?

Any similarities? 'Sauve qui peut'?

[cyclezealot]

23. DearFellow Kucinich supporter.

Dennis Kucnich gave us inspiration..But, as Studds Terkel says. Someone like Dennis Kucinich can't be president. It is not DK's problem; but the United States..DK got such a lousy chance to present his case...In part we have given up on this country,ever since..
Rigged elections in probably three larger states..
DK can't have a chance -we have no role here..ONly sell-outs can win. Plus, as People for the American Way says- Scalia's agenda will put civil liberties over the edge..Their constitutional lawyers have done analysis of Scalia's opinion..American's don't know what they are up aginst. Too many freedoms are in limbo and we can't be a part of such events..Good luck..We can still give financial support to peoople like Dennis or to Dennis Kucinich.And vote in primaries in our native state of California and vote . But, that has a difficult time countering the slander of organizations such as MSNBC.
as to the smoothness of the move..Movers hopefully make the move easy. Just fly over and meet up with our stuff..
You are right...The parallels with New Orleans...More economic treason with the likes of Cafta and it's stringpullers. Feel we are leaving a sinking ship..

[Mairead]

100. I'm not really criticising you, CZ: I think it makes good sense, at

least on a personal level, to flee while you can.

In bringing it up, I was alluding to the same thing KatInMN does: to flee is an option enjoyed almost exclusively by the young, White and educated, or the well-off. Other countries don't want people my age no matter how skilled and educated unless we also have lots of money. And they don't want poor people in general, unless the poverty has some 'good' reason and the person is young, White, and educated. Countries, even Canada, are not in the humanitarian business. Which, all by itself, should tell us who's running things, and that, while it's bad in the US, the problem exists everywhere else (except maybe Cuba) too.

So, mapping it all onto New Orleans, you have money and a car, and can leave. We don't, so we can only try to ride it out.

As someone down-thread points out, fascism in the US will only grow and eventually engulf the world unless stopped (which is more like global warming than a hurricane, really). And the stopping will come at a price in blood and tears. The sad part is that it's always the poor who do the bulk of the paying.

[katinmn]

38. If I could afford to go to Norway or Sweden I'd go there

As it is if I cash in my retirement I can live in some poor country for a little while. Then what?

Oh hell. I'm going to stay and fight.

Vive la revolution!

[shadowknows69]

24. Flame away if you must but I say

Don't let La Guardia hit you in the ass on the way out. Some of us have chosen to stay and fight for our country. Don't do us any favors "Democrats Abroad".

[cyclezealot]

25. Rigged elections in Ukranine

resulted in lots of noisy people who could not stand what was done to them..Here after the Delay riot in Miami vote center. No one cared.
Good luck to you instead.
Americans have been brain washed by being "Outfoxed." Seems too hopeless to me..Hope you do not feel too repressed when Scalia rules your bedroom.

[LisaL]

91. And WTF did these people get in return? Those protests were

orchestrated, not as spontaneous as you obviously think.

[BlueJazz]

31. If they are retirement age, they have probably been fighting....

..for America half of their lives....and 40 percent of Americans STILL think GW is doing a good job.

I don't blame them....we're to fucking stupid to exist...

[Boomer]

41. Short memories

>> Some of us have chosen to stay and fight for our country. <<

The only reason you are here in the first place is that your ancestors chose NOT to stay and fight for their country.

We are all immigrants, even American Indians, who are the descendents of Asians who left their land in search of a better life.

[shadowknows69]

42. So that's the best way to cause positive change is to flee?

Just abandon the experiment and everyone that is still fighting for rights you enjoyed all your life.

[Bluerthanblue]

53. is your concept of freedom

one that would dictate to another that chosing to live in another country makes them your enemy? Makes them the target of disdain? Traitors?

Sorry, and I sincerly mean you no offense, but that's exactly the mentality of this administration that makes me sick- and makes me believe there ISN'T hope for 'America'.

Freedom, means allowing others to make choices in their lives that don't have to meet OUR expectations, or desires, in order to remain allies. At least in my opinion.

I can understand the feeling of abandonment, and envy- but don't let that control you- Everyone has their own breaking point- their own 'tipping' moment. That doesn't make them an enemy. Or a 'traitor'.

peace.
blu

[shadowknows69]

60. I don't recall

using the words traitor or enemy so please don't put them in my mouth. I used the word cowardly and that was rash of me.

[Bluerthanblue]

68. you are right in that

you didn't 'use' those exact words- and since you edited your post, I can't quote you exactly. I use the words traitor, because in my 'take' on your words, you imply that you are the 'noble' one for staying to 'fight'- and enemy, because the way you spoke, was in words that I wouldn't choose to use to someone I considered my ally.
But you are correct, those were not your words, and I apologize for offending you by speaking to MY 'reading' of what you were intending to say. That was not my purpose. Rather, I was trying to point out that we ALL have to decide for ourselves when, and what is 'right'. THAT is a freedom that is being taken away from us more and more by this corrupt administration. And when someone says "I'm headed out, but I will stay with you in spirit(my paraphrase)" saying don't let the door hit you on the way out is not something very ..... supportive? or kind. I'm fairly certain the OP didn't post what she did to rub your nose in her liberation, or to belittle YOUR choice to stay and fight. Simply to share her excitement, and say bye for now.

I mean you no offense-
peace,
blu

[Boomer]

54. There is no right answer for everyone

Some people are leaving, most are staying. In a country this large, that kind of shift in population is negligible. Why does it bother you so much, enough to scorn the people who want something different, perhaps better, and have the means to reach for it?

If a DUer posted that he had fallen madly in love with a French woman and had decided to leave the U.S. to live with her, is that an "acceptable" reason for leaving? How about a great job offer than beats anything he's gotten in the U.S.? What if he just likes the climate or the countryside better?

Are all these people required to remain living in the U.S. because this is where they were born and we need their liberal votes? Or is your scorn reserved only for those who leave for political reasons?

[shadowknows69]

62. reasons

"If a DUer posted that he had fallen madly in love with a French woman and had decided to leave the U.S. to live with her, is that an "acceptable" reason for leaving? How about a great job offer than beats anything he's gotten in the U.S.? What if he just likes the climate or the countryside better?"


Absolutely acceptable. I find it hard to stomach the "leaving a sinking ship" crowd, I'm sorry. For people who have been the member of a country all their lives and indeed one that has been good to them to run from it in its darkest hours is unfathomable to me.

[FreedomAngel82]

69. The thing I always tell myself

is how we've been through worse in this country. We've still overcome. I do have some hope even when most days I don't. I just watch old video's of those who have fought before me to get my strength. Sometimes I wish I could leave but then I think of all the future children and my family who is still here who I couldn't leave. I remember all the women who have fought before me and I can't let their work go unappreciated and die. I have to fight even for them. Same with those of the past who have fought like MLK, Robert Kennedy etc.

[shadowknows69]

70. Well said angel

and how I would have said it if I were a more eloquent writer. I do apologize for my earlier tone. I speak from the gut too much sometimes and Blue you are absolutely right. We are and should all be allies and act like it. No hard feelings I hope.

[Bluerthanblue]

82. no hard feelings

at all. I DO understand, I've said goodbye alot- especially over the last few years. It always hurts, but I've learned that folks have to live their own lives, and missing them means that we care, and are connected.

Sorry I spoke back so harshly-
peace,
blu

[calmblueocean]

75. Amen.

I'm sick of these quitters abandoning the country.

[expatriate]

84. Don't forget

they remain American citizens - and as American citizens, have the right to vote, campaign, speak out, and work for America to be better. Just from a different address.

Being shitty to "Democrats Abroad" is really uncalled for. Many of us have logged thousands of hours campaigning, phone banking, otherwise trying to help get Democrats elected.

Such an exclusionary attitude will only result in your isolation, eventually. You may need the help of "Democrats Abroad" someday, when you find out that your country that you're staying to fight for, won't allow you to fight any more.

[BlueIris]

88. No flames here.

As regards the OP--I don't hate you or anything, but:

"'Democrats' Abroad"?

Please. If you're giving up, you're giving up. Spare us the empathy--you don't have any.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

26. Bonne chance, mes amis!

Amusez vous bien avec votre bicyclette!

[Liberal In Texas]

28. Good luck.

However, I must tell you about a fellow I met last weekend when I was out of town at a conference.

He was living in France and has just moved back to the states. He was working for US companies and was being paid in US dollars. The dollar is doing so poorly in the rest of the world you have to have a lot of those dollars to be able to afford to live. In his case it just got so bad he couldn't stay any longer, and he had been there for many years.

I trust you are aware of this and have factored this into your budgeting.

The repugs have screwed up the economy so badly, it makes it even harder to throw in the towel and move out.

[sweetheart]

29. Welcome to the expatriot club

We get to sit around on our left-asshole and drink cappucino in paris
until it all blows over, having lots of sex and rolling in infinite
socialist pleasure domes. ;-)

I found leaving the country like surfing, and that everything i ever did
in life before walking outside the US was "catching the wave." now
once you move to a better governed nation state, that's "riding the
wave"... and then catchin's long in the past. There is no turning
back, and wherever them 40 acres iz, is where the magic will happen.

[Tace]

32. Go For It -- But I Am Staying

I'm putting my ass, that those of my wife and two small girls, into staying here.

Enjoy. You'll come on back when we've spent our blood saving the joint.

[expatriate]

85. If you're allowed to save the joint, that is.

And don't be sure they'll be back. Many Americans, once they get outside of the propaganda machine and find out how free life is in other countries, where the government doesn't poke its nose into your bedroom or your gonads, don't want to go back. Believe it or not, there are many places in the world better than America to live in. Americans don't want to believe it, but it is true.

And many people who immigrate to America go back home, or immigrate elsewhere after spending some time trying desperately to make a living and finding out that they can't afford health care. They find out that the American Dream is only for some Americans, not all Americans. The standard of living in America is steadily declining, while in other nations, it is going up rapidly.

Don't be so sure that the present administration is going to allow you to "save the joint". Don't be sure at all.

I see people here invoking the names of Martin Luther King and Robert Kennedy - remember what happened to them?

Is living in any country worth that to you - losing your life? If it is, fine - but don't denigrate those people who feel that there is a time to try to do better elsewhere. Not everyone is made out to be a martyr - and "martyr" is just a fancy word for a dead person, isn't it?

[shadowknows69]

105. and where would we be without them?

"I see people here invoking the names of Martin Luther King and Robert Kennedy - remember what happened to them?"

Hell don't forget Malcom X, Ghandi, William Wallace, any signer of the Declaration of Independence, Nathan Hale, Crispus Atticus etc. etc. I shudder to think what our world would be like without these historical figures who gladly stood and were willing to give all. All I ask of expatriates is to please honor our blood as you do theirs.

[NJCher]

33. congratulations, cyclezealot

I wish you all the very best on the next chapter of your life. Wow, living in a country with a real government. I so wish we could have that here.

Anyway, don't let the "door/hit" people bother you with their remarks about staying to fight. Our government is corrupt, our media is corrupt and even the American people are corrupt. You are indeed leaving a sinking ship.




Cher

[Tace]

34. And Those Of Us Who Save This Sinking Ship Will Say "Bahhh"

[shadowknows69]

35. I can't believe Tace and I are in the minority on this

Not only are you cowardly but delusional if you think that the US left unchecked won't come to affect whatever hideaway you flee to.

[Selatius]

36. Many people left Germany to fight the good fight against tyranny

One of them was no other than Albert Einstein, for instance. To say that they are running away and simply not looking back is disingenuous because although reality would say some of them, indeed, will do that, others will fight and contribute, and I have faith a good deal of them will.

[Tace]

39. You've Got A Good Point

I've been considering my options as well. I'm just such a stubborn idiot.

Consider that I'm simply a guy manning the ramparts as others flee. That's all.

[shadowknows69]

40. I'm not trying to generalize anyone

but I'm not seeing a lot of "I can't wait to get to france to start the foreign resistance" I'm seeing a lot of people happy to be crawling over people to get to the last lifeboat on the big T.

[Boomer]

45. If all the Jews had stayed to fight...

...they'd have died in concentration camps. At what point does courage become suicide? At what point does it become "acceptable" to leave and join another culture that is more in line with your values? Only when your very life is in danger? And how do you tell when that critical time has been reached without risking it being too late?

It was rich Jews who were able to flee Germany, but no one holds that decision against them now. The shame is that others might have been saved if they'd also had the resources. Kind of like the evacuation of New Oreleans.

As a gay person, I really wonder whether I'm insane to stay in this country, knowing that the RR is growing in power and influence every year. They hate gays with a passion that could well spill over into a "final solution" of some kind.

I don't blame anyone for leaving. There are more than enough people in this country to bring about a new era if they wanted to. The fact that they don't means there's a hell of lot more wrong with this place than Bush.

[Tace]

46. I've Often Thought That If The Jews Had Fought, Instead Of Fleeing

That Hitler may not have had the "success" that he had.

[LisaL]

90. Gee, or they all would be dead.

:eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes:

[shadowknows69]

48. Boomer they have a final solution for all of us by now.

this coming weekend is where we can definitively show them we are serious but its going to take a million in the streets. Pipe dreams? Why? If 50 million voted against bush in 2004 and more disagree now than we have to all go sit on his front lawn and say we're not going until you walk out with your resignation in hand and let the chips and a lot of our bodies fall, but your trucks won't roll, you dinners won't get cooked, your planes won't get flown, your clothes won't get pressed and your houses won't get cleaned until you give us our damn country back.

[FreedomAngel82]

71. Bush isn't killing anybody *yet*

Unless you join the military of course.

[expatriate]

86. Let's not forget those Bush just killed through neglect, shall we? n/t

[Binka]

47. Indeed! I Am Fighting From Abroad

I give buckets of money and support to noble US causes but I will not live in the US ever again. I am currently in Italy but have plans to purchase a place in Lisbon. My partner and I home school our young daughter and we cry and pray for our son in Iraq. The very fact that our son is in Ramadi is fucking sacrifice enough for us. We have given more than our GD share for the corporate joke that is Amerika. We support the good people that stay behind but we are not giving one more thin dime to the fascist that have run the US into a fucking trash can.

BTW life abroad is BEAUTIFUL. Full of all the same shit you get anywhere in the world but WO the strip malls, and Wal Mart, and crap TV.

[shadowknows69]

50. I know your family's sacrifice Binka and wouldn't question it

and as I said I shouldn't have generalized. Was just feeling a little abandoned by a few posts.

[Binka]

55. Forget It Shadow No Biggie

Do you need help getting to DC next week? Let me know. You would be standing for Benjamin. PM me your addy and I will send you a check. For real.

[Tace]

37. Thanks For The Support

Damn it. I'm staying. And these motherfuckers are going to have to get past me. That's all I'm saying.

[FreedomAngel82]

72. Same here

While some days I get tired and weary I still would rather die fighting then give up and let them take over easily. They still haven't gotten me and they won't. Look at the black Caucus! They are a wonderful example of a group of people who continue to always fight no matter what!

[progressivebydesign]

79. And you may find the racism in France to be unbearable. n/t

[SlowDownFast]

81. Agreed. Running away is cowardly and that's that.

I'm not afraid to give my life to save this country and fight fascism if it comes to it.

And if the fascism isn't quashed in the US, you can bet France ain't gonna be safe, or anywhere else for that matter.

[Violet_Crumble]

95. I can...

Because the OP is neither cowardly, nor delusional. You act as though they're running and hiding, but I don't recall them saying they were giving up their US citizenship and wouldn't be voting ever again in an election. I don't recall them saying they were turning their back on US politics - in fact it was just the opposite...

Is it maybe a bit of jealousy because they're heading off to live in another country and you can't?

To the OP, I wish you and yr family all the best in yr new life in France :)

Violet...

[marions ghost]

101. excellent point

--it's the global equivalent of moving to the restricted access 'gated' community and thinking that now finally you're safe and free...

The world is too small.

[LisaL]

94. This ship seems to be just like the Titanic.

[gulfcoastliberal]

43. No flames from me. Good luck & best wishes.

Those who are "fighting" don't seem to get the military has nukes, tanks, guided missiles and they do not. They also don't seem to get the dems allegiance is to the same paymasters as the repukes. Where are the dems on the scandalous, outrageous, repuke-corp privately owned e-voting machines? Not a peep from them, let alone meaningful action. They're also probably the ones who get upset when people criticize the Vichy Dems who are total sellouts just because they have a (D) behind their names yet have the same right-wing ideologies and vote with repukes on most legislation and budget appropriations. Who gave us NAFTA and GATT? Who gave us media deregulation? Who gave us welfare "reform"? They're the ones saying the dems should "save" the filibuster for use - on what? (Guess super-extremist Roberts as Chief Justice of the US isn't important enough.) Apparently nothing is worth filibustering anymore - if * wants it, it's rubber-stamped by the dems. I'm 29 and would love to escape. This is a facsist state ruled by the corporatocracy. And all empires fall.

[Boomer]

51. I'm feeling pretty fatalistic these days

Germany rode a wave of fascism to the bitter end, and anyone who tried to oppose them was crushed. If all the people who fled had remained, I really doubt the outcome would have been any different except that more people would have been crushed.

The Bush regime is just a symptom of much deeper, intractable societal trends: fundamentalist religious fanaticism, coporate/capitalist greed, consumer-driven values, ignorance, political apathy. The list goes on and on.

At some point I don't think individuals can fight these underlying cultural trends if there isn't sufficient momentum, sufficient sympathy in large numbers of people. If America could be turned around, someone like Cindy Sheehan should have sparked the necessary flame. If America could be turned around, the Plame outing or the Downing Street memos would have led to Bush's ouster.

I've seen small flickering sparks at each of these event, but not the conflagration that would have occurred even 30 years ago. We're not the same country anymore, and our progression toward a militaristic, fascist country has been inexorable since the 1950's. We won't see the end of it until this movement has run its course and we're left with ashes and dust and bones.

So I can't begrudge anyone the desire to leave and the means to do so.

[nonconformist]

52. Ahh... but WHERE will those nukes and missiles land first?

Not here, I can tell you that. We'll be the ones flinging them.

I don't blame anyone for leaving. I've considered it. For now, I stay.

[Tace]

49. Cyclezealot -- Best Of Luck, Really

As I mentioned in earlier replies, I've been considering my options as well. Best of luck. : )

[Ksec]

57. Im wishing I was going along ,also

Have a great, safe trip and have a glass of French vino on me.

[Imagevision]

58. Good Luck and be attentive when strangers ask if you're american...!

[loudsue]

59. Good luck, my friend. Have a good life.

:cry: I wish I could go, too!

:kick::kick::kick:

[Tace]

61. By The Way -- Is This Lance Armstrong And Cheryl Crow?

Just wondering.

[RevolutionStartsNow]

80. LOL

That cracked me up. It could be, you know... :)

[BiggJawn]

63. Well, must be nice....

When the shit finally hits the fan, raise a glass for all of us left behind like so many black people watching Katrina bore down on them...

I think a feature of the "New Republic" ought to be to deny re-entry to anyone who bailed before the fight.

[Tace]

64. Bird Song -- Garcia

All I know is something like a bird within her sang
All I know she sang a little while and then flew on
Tell me all that you know
I'll show you
Snow and rain

If you hear that same sweet song again, will you know why?
Anyone who sings a tune so sweet is passing by
Laugh in the sunshine
Sing, cry in the dark
Fly through the night

Don't cry now
Don't you cry
Don't you cry any more
La da da da

Sleep in the stars
Don't you cry
Dry your eyes on the wind
La da da da da da

All I know is something like a bird within her sang
All I know she sang a little while and then flew on
Tell me all that you know
I'll show you
Snow and rain

[shadowknows69]

67. knew there was a reason i liked you tace

one of my favorites from garcia. first got to see it live in oakland on a new years run of shows.

[Tace]

73. Jeepers -- We May Have Shared... Women And Wine!

Cheers

On Edit: Dang, I'm feeling sexist. Really what I meant is that we may have been at the same shows. : )

[shadowknows69]

74. 1989 was that you?

that sold me that humboldt county shit? man that made the third night's drumz/space something to remember ;)

<edit> got ya on the "Jack Straw" reference you sexist you.

[Tace]

76. Nah, Wasn't Me -- But, I Really Appreciate That You Got The Jack Straw...

reference. It's really wild that we're together in our hearts. Bravo!

[shadowknows69]

77. some of the best friends I ever had

we're the ones I can barely remember from shows lol.

[Greyhound]

65. 2010, Baby!! France as well.

I just hope it can (edit) hang together that long. :scared:

[Blue_Tires]

83. good luck

i plan to make a new start elsewhere as well as soon as i can save away enough $$$$ and deal with other 'entanglements'...until then i've got to stay

[expatriate]

87. All the best of luck to you, Cyclezealot.

I left America in 1998, for what one poster in this thread deems an "acceptable" reason - met and fell in love with an Australian man. Have been living in Australia ever since. Once you are free of the culture of America, and start to see it from outside - well, your pain over what it has become will be even more intense, but you will have the clear head and vision that will help you to continue to be Democrats and do whatever you can to help salvage your native land.

People who have never lived outside of America cannot possibly comprehend that there are places that are truly better, because they've been told all their lives that America is the very best. It is not - and for most people, it never, ever has been. And now, with Republicans what they are, and elected Democrats, for the most part, nothing but self-serving flunkies who want to keep their cushy jobs, and will rubber stamp just about anything that Bush wants, America is truly a frightening and dreadful place.

What many people don't want to understand is that the world is walking away from America economically. Other nations have developed economies that are very strong, and they are leaving the weak American dollar behind, and aligning their economies on the Euro. America is in decline. I hope it will rise again, but with the way things have been going in the last three decades, I cannot see how things will be reversed in any of our lifetimes. People here talk about the Clinton years as some kind of golden era, but in reality, they were not. Yes, he left an enormous surplus - at the expense of many, many social programs, which has helped to deepen the always present poverty in America. I can remember when he just closed down Social Security for weeks on end, so no-one could get a Social Security card - so if you needed to present one to get a job, that was just too bad. The Clinton years were in no way a wonderful time for many, many Americans.

It's going to get a lot worse in America before it gets better - and what a lot of people here don't seem to understand is that one reaches a time in one's life when all of a sudden, there are fewer years ahead of one than behind. You hit the age of forty, or fifty, or sixty and realize - hell, you have a predictable number of years left, and it's getting shorter all the time. And if, like me, you have been active in politics for decades, yet see little, if any result for all your efforts, you have to begin wondering if you should not have some time for yourself. Particularly when the years are just winding down.

In my case, after thirty-six years of contending with abuse, poverty, prejudice, underemployment, lack of health care, watching America go deeper and deeper into the darkness - yes, I had few regrets about leaving for personal reasons and going to another place where life promised to be better, both personally and politically.

That's not to say that there won't be warts in your new country of residence. There are in mine - and yes, I'm active politically here, working to make things better. Just as I'm active politically being a Democrat Abroad.

People think that as soon as you change addresses, you are no longer an American citizen, and that is so very wrong. You can still vote, you can still campaign, and you can still care. Anyone who disses you for leaving is being far too simplistic and narrowminded - the very attributes that have allowed Americans to get into the terrible situation they're in.

Enjoy your new life. You'll be surprised at how very free you feel.

[marions ghost]

93. if PM John Howard and co get their way ...

Australia will be in the exact same boat as we are. Some Aussies I know call Australia the 51st state because of Howard's regressive agenda. Without getting into a big debate, I would think you would acknowledge that the danger is there.

[Violet_Crumble]

96. No, we will not be in the exact same boat...

The US Republicans are way further to the right than our conservative govt. The Liberal Party tends to contain a mix of fiscally conservative but socially liberal types, and also the conservative on all fronts types. I think yr making the mistake of seeing the way the current govt hitches its wagon to that of the US (something done by all govts, be they Liberal or Labor) as meaing everything's the same as the US. While there's some truly regressive stuff being attempted with workplace reform, we're miles ahead of the US in other areas, and it's not likely a Howard govt can do much about that....

I've referred to Australia at times as the 51st state, but that's solely to do with the Australia-US alliance, which places a way too high value on the US, and ignores regional ties at the expense of the US...

Violet...

[marions ghost]

97. I'm not up on all the issues

but I've heard about the stripping of power from the trade unions and the gutting of some of Australia's famed social programs. Also about the detainment camps. There are Aussies who would disagree with you about the level of danger, but I will take your opinion into consideration. Certainly I'd rather think it's better there than I've been led to believe, as I have family ties to Australia.
I don't think you can argue that Australia's not taking a big conservative whacking which is having serious repercussions. Many Americans aren't aware of that. What do you think is the worst regressive policy of the Howard administration so far?

[Violet_Crumble]

99. I get yr point...

We have been taking a conservative whacking for a long time, it's just nowhere near the same level as in the US. Without a doubt, the most disgusting regressive policy of the Howard govt is mandatory detention, but the sad thing is that it was the previous Labor govt that introduced it, and Howard just made it bigger and nastier. The Free Trade Agreement also rates an honourable mention as a real shocker....

The Howard govt now has control of the Senate, and there's some truly horrible stuff that they'll attempt to push through, like their workplace reform policies, and the full sale of Telstra. With no minor parties holding the balance of power, it's up to Liberal and National Party backbenchers to vote against their own party in the Senate and put the brakes on this stuff...

Also, it depends where you live and where yr employed - I'm cushioned from a lot of stuff because I live somewhere where there's a state/territory Labor govt that isn't some pitiful and useless thing like one or two other state govts, and I also work in the Public Service, which so far gives me protection from any nasty workplace reform issues that are going to arise...

But my hint to any Americans who think coming here would give them a respite from Bush, I'd say think again. Here you get the sickening and continual sight of Little Johnny sucking up to Bush and agreeing with everything he says, even when it's to the detriment of this country. New Zealand's the place to live in. They've got (still, I hope after the election yesterday) a truly progressive govt...

Violet...

[expatriate]

98. Of course I acknowledge that the danger is there.

However, as Violet Crumble has pointed out, that's an extremely simplistic viewpoint, and does not take into account the fact that there is a wide diversity of viewpoint in the Australian Liberal Party.

I did say that Australia has its warts, did I not? There is work going on to change this - and Mr. Howard is about to make a massive error, as all conservative politicians in this country always do. He's about to go too far, and screw around with people's workplace rights. And that has spelled the end for many an Australian politician.

Unfortunately, the Australian-American alliance is something that is grating on a lot of Australians - and when the American dollar and economy get weak enough, believe it or not, the alliance will weaken as well. Is weakening. Howard has noticeably been distancing himself from Bush for some time now. Not nearly as kissy kissy as they were a couple of years back.

And Howard might just be on his way to saying bye bye in a couple of years - might even be gone now if the head of the Labor Party at the last election hadn't been a foulmouthed hotheaded bozo that many people simply couldn't bring themselves to allow to become Prime Minister. It has been said that if the ballots had been counted where people just simply didn't vote for either the Liberal or the Labor Party, that would have been the majority.

Best of all - fundamentalist religion has not got the grip on Australia that it has in America, and probably never will - and believe it or not, fundamentalist lunacy is running America right now. After all, if you believe in the Rapture, no point in preserving anything or keeping the future viable, right? Thankfully, Australia just doesn't have that crap going on in enough strength to ever get a toehold. Your average Aussie goes to church three times in his life - to be baptized as an infant, to get married (and now that there are secular marriage celebrants, most opt out of that) and to be buried (and funeral homes are now providing those services too, and lots of folks don't have a church funeral).

So nice to live somewhere that isn't a theocracy. Howard tried to appoint some bishop to a political position, and ended up with a massive scandal when it turned out the guy had covered up for pedophiles. Once burned, twice shy - no more faith based nonsense.

[marions ghost]

102. OK, hope you're right about the legacy of the Howard regime...

I will be following it, esp as I come from a large Aussie-American family. Thanx for your input.

I have to DISagree about America being a Theocracy. Make no mistake--the God of America is Money, and we are a Corporate Oligarchy posing as a democracy. The Oligarchy has taken great advantage of religious fundamentalists to further their own power. But 'fundamentalist lunacy' is not running America, though it gets a lot of press. A cold ruthless machine fueled by greed and over-consumption rules, while Americans are distracted fighting ridiculous smokescreen battles such as whether evolution should be taught in schools and whether gays should marry. It's all intentional deflection from the real looting going on at the highest levels. That's the real agenda.

[NightOwwl]

89. What can I say...

I'm a sucker who loves my country. I hate what Bush is doing, but I'm going to stick around. I don't do much...write the occasional LTTE, call my congresspeople, sometimes even try to educate people.

If it were me I'd feel like I was deserting my family in a time of desperate need. Couldn't do it.

But hey, enjoy your new life.

edited to add: After I re-read my post I realized I came across as sounding like I was insinuating you do not love your country. That is not what I meant at all. What I meant was this: I wish Bush hadn't put you in the position where you felt you had to make a choice one way or the other.

[Lethe]

92. will you take me with you? i'm house trained

please?

[ignatius 2]

103. A practical question about moving to France..how did you get your

visa?

[marions ghost]

104. Why

does your smug tone make me feel like one of the "Left Behind" ??

Must be the references to 'your struggle' and 'your civil liberties', and 'OUR new French constitution'...indicating that you left us strugglers a long time ago.

But hey, Enjoy the Rapture! :hi: Hope your French is excellent.

[Seansky]

106. yours has been the only post I read that generated such

mixed emotions--from should I also plan on living to this is just a cycle we are going thru...Closed the laptop after I read it so I wouldn't get depressed.

It is even more discouraging that the farewell posts..

Wish you the best.

[cascadiance]

107. My sentiments too...

[Cocoa]

108. say hello to Richard Perle

who has a home in the south of France, and who also has given up on the American Dream.

[CrispyQ]

110. Will you become French citizens?

Great idea to cross the nation & take in the many sites of America the Beautiful. Such a beautiful & majestic land, tragically & slowly being auctioned off to the most connected cronies.

The best to you & your family. It must have been a heart wrenching decision. :hug:

[YOY]

111. I'm so far off but I wish I was there too

We just want to leave this so called 'land of opportunity'.

Maybe it was for my father and his father but not anymore. I cannot make a living here on the 'career' this country is willing to afford me.