Is anyone here that experienced Vietnam era and

[Seansky]

that could tell me how the current mood of the country resembles the one then, from the ordinary people's point of view?

[Art_from_Ark]

1. The right-wingers back then were called John Birchers

and they were "America: Love it or leave it" types.

On the other hand, there was a sense that the country was trying to do something to help the less fortunate and that things would get better. This was exemplified by lots of neat "Great Society" commercials.

At least, that's how it appeared to me in my little sheltered part of the country.

[Seansky]

36. thanks everyone, now I can discuss the similarities

with my very argumentative friend...

[Art_from_Ark]

210. In small-town America, at least where I was in Arkansas,

people really didn't notice the war unless they had a family member in the service. Two of my friends had much older brothers who were in Viet Nam. One was a pilot who was shot down several times, but survived. The other, well, I don't remember exactly what happened to him but apparently he wasn't as lucky.

When I was in Junior high, the end of the war was still nowhere in sight, despite the Paris Peace Talks, but I don't think many of the boys were thinking about the draft unless they had an older brother who had already been drafted or had a low number.

And in town, one would never have known there was a war going on. No one seemed to talk about it, except those who were being affected by it.

[Bozita]

2. today's mood reminds me of late '67, early '68

Public was starting to pay attention. Protests were growing in size and number.

Protestors ringed the WH (That'll never happen today) and chanted taunts at LBJ.

[MADem]

9. YEP...the SILENT MAJORITY turned their backs

and when they spoke up, they said THIS WAR SUCKS!!!!

The malaise, the anger...

It feels very much the same.

[RagingInMiami]

24. I've read about that

They chanted "Hey, Hey, LBJ, How many kids did you kill today?"

[KerryOn]

35. We are going to try and ring the WH on Sept 26th

It will happen again.

http://unitedforpeace.org/article.php?list=type&type=91

[proud2BlibKansan]

155. A big difference is that

we criticized BOTH parties when protesting the Vietnam War. We were definitely less partisan than we are today.

[StellaBlue]

165. I criticize both parties

Almost equally.

Anyone who voted for the Patriot Act or the war in Iraq deserves to have their US citizenship revoked, IMHO.

[proud2BlibKansan]

170. I don't think most of us

(at least not here at DU) are willing to criticize the Dems. The political climate is very different today.

[StellaBlue]

195. Hmm

That hasn't been my impression at all.

I am a registered Democrat; I will always vote; and I will always vote for a Dem, NEVER a Republican. But if I have the opportunity to vote for a progressive third party whose platform/candidate I like as a protest vote, I will unhesitatingly do so.

Edited to say: or if the third party has a viable chance of winning. AND, those scumbags in DC are a lot farther from our interests than our Democratic candidates and even our elected reps at the state and local levels. Different ballgame.

I am proud to have voted Nader in 2000. I was in Texas, so my vote didn't count. In 2004 I voted Kerry because a) I knew the Greens had no hope, after 2000, of getting that magic 5%, and b) I wanted to get the Dems as high a percentage in Texas as possible, to send Shrubby a message that we don't ALL live in 'Bush Country'.

:)

[shadowknows69]

162. that's precisely what needs to happen today

n/t

[bigbrother05]

3. Tin soldiers and Nixon coming

were finally on our own. This summer I hear the drummin FOUR DEAD IN OHIO. KENT STATE UNIVERSITY.

[Child_Of_Isis]

15. We definitely had better music then.

"the poets down here they write nothing at all, they just stand back and let it all be." B.S

[bigbrother05]

29. The topic is a bit too real now

Have had music from the 'Summer of Love' on British Sky's music choice channel on all day. Lennon's 'Give peace a chance' is playing as I write this.

Graduated from HS in 1970. Grew up outside of an Army base, Dad and brother both served in Nam. Pulled #301 in the lottery, was able to have a choice about school a lot of my contemporaries didn't get. The same rage against the injustices is apparent now, but as another poster has said, it depended on your age a lot back then. The draft made a difference, spread the pain across a wider demographic, but the Bushes & Quayles of the world could get their kid in a safe NG/Reserve slot, and the student deferment helped some from the middle class.

There was a lot of heat in the discussions, very much a For/Against world until after things like Kent State made it impossible to ignore the price being paid at home as well as on the battleground. The gangrene of the war had joined the open wounds of the Civil Rights movement to split families in ways that would make the current L/R situation almost seem tame if it weren't for the creeping realization that we are truly at risk of losing our country.

The revolution may not be televised, but it is damn sure being web cast!

[Jeanette in FL]

40. We also had a very different media then too

Radio stations were mom and pop independent businesses where they could pick the music and speak about the hot topics of the day. Not corporate owned station that plays the same old songs and has play list and not to play lists. There didn't seem to be such censorship on the news. Every night at supper time we watched the evening news with our families. What we saw was raw and real. We saw death on the battle field. We saw the bodies come home.

[Child_Of_Isis]

76. Spot on! eom.

[malaise]

106. Profound point

The media was very different in those days.

[daninthemoon]

163. Nightly news with Walter Cronkite. Vietnam war was televised

graphically into every living room every night. There was no hiding from that war, or the protests. Today, if a network newsman challenges this administration, they quickly lose their job.

[immoderate]

177. Sponsors were more tolerant too.

Probably for the same reasons.

--IMM

[rzemanfl]

4. Here's the scoop, a person's impression of the "mood of the

country" is colored by their age and the passage of time. I can tell you this, I never hated Johnson or Nixon as much as I hate Bush. In the sixties I could throw a rock a good long way, march for hours without a potty break and run when I had to. No longer can do that.

[Blue_In_AK]

56. I was thinking that, too...

Back in those days, I just knew I hated the war and the "establishment" and I hated that people I knew and loved were being very adversely affected by their service time or were dying, but I was going on my feelings more than my intellect. And with the optimism and idealism of youth (I was 21 in 1967), I really did think we could "change the world." Now with a more mature understanding of what's "really" going on, and with 20-20 hindsight looking back over the last 45 years or so, it's very difficult to maintain any hope. It's terribly frustrating to be able to visualize the possibilities of a nation and a world at peace, with our human and technological resources being used to improve conditions for everyone, and then realize that those in power don't seem to want that, that all they want to do is wage war and oppress the poor. It's so overwhelmingly sad.

[Seansky]

63. I am 38 (born 67) and I share your

comments 100%. And I can't stop feeling the sadness, helplesness and at times dispair for the future. One thing my friends and I concluded the other day (as an optimistic view of the current nightmares) is that we could find ourselves looking back at this time and realize that this was the period when world equality really started to take ground (globalization, US loosing empire position, poor nations getting better standard of living, etc) but we know we are just kidding ourselves and pushing our sarcasm to the limit...

[stlsaxman]

100. Seansky, go buy this book-

Worth every penny. All my heros are pictured. Some good stories regarding the times as well. David Fenton was right there in the middle of it.

Anyone who was around at the time will really appreciate this book.

"SHOTS: an american photographer's journal 1967 - 1972"

[Seansky]

103. will get it from Lib. tomorrow...let you know my experience with it

txs. I also appreciate people sharing their own perspectives on this.

[Laughing Mirror]

148. Taking a dip in the Reflecting Pool, recreation for many hot protesters

Sometimes protesting was a party on the National Mall. Anybody could just come along and jump in.

[H2O Man]

178. Good book.

Also, I love the Yippie! button.

[shadowknows69]

164. don't lose hope Seansky

Now is our time. Those like you and I who were born on the fringes of the vietnam war. We must carry that torch now and not only learn from the movement back then but improve upon it. It is time to make our egotistical, imperialistic country part of a more peaceful global community and that is going to have to involve telling the "old guard" they are no longer viable in this time. Their philosophy of greed unbound is harmful to the community of man as a whole. It will take sacrifice on a level none of us are used to but the time is possibly now or never. No more easy ride. Time to stand or hide.

[Seansky]

167. i see our generation changing quite a bit with regards

to the materialistic pursue. think it is because we ended up becoming pawns of our greed and found ourselves betrayed by the corporate America. Think also we got disappointed that the American dream either cost too much or brought too little satisfaction. Of course, I am generalizing, but I hear something in this lines from my friends.

[rppper]

193. i agree 100%.....i'm 38 too......

...and i can't remember times and people being so divisive, unfriendly and disrespectful...the air is thick with tension. we have become an apathetic society, and we are polarized idealogicly...at least a great number of people anyhow...something is going to happen soon...i don't think it will be anything good either. you can feel it...i remember the early 70's, although i was young. i remember cronkite reporting the war...the pictures of the protesters. my older siblings remember the strife...they all think it's worse now. i'm of the same mind......

[klyon]

66. yes the weight of the sadness gets heavier every day

to think of what could be and what is is crushing me.

KL

[leanin_green]

93. I can still throw that rock, though. Just alittle more accurately.

And I don't run anymore either. Since age and injuries have taken their toll, I've gotten braver(or a little more pissed)and I turn and fight. And believe me, 6'2" is still 6'2" no matter what the age!

[welshTerrier2]

5. totally different ...

during Vietnam, there was an incredible idealistic energy ... we believed the old systems were failing and should be replaced with a new vision ...

today, i'm afraid Americans are slowly coming to learn that the empire is dying ... if they haven't learned it yet they will ... today's national consciousness does not feel hopeful ... it feels more like a growing despair ...

i just don't see a movement of visionary idealists ... oh, t'were it so ... perhaps from the ashes a new spark will eventually emerge ... i don't see one yet ...

[Beam Me Up]

14. I agree w/ wewlshTerrier2. We believed we could change the world and

we weren't wrong. Apparently we -- by which I mean those who had a vision of a better world -- were right-on and our vision of a renewable resource infrastructure and a world free from warfare really ruffled some fascist feathers. They put Reagan in office and things have gone down hill ever since. This is the WORST PERIOD not only in American history but in the history of the world. We're going to be very lucky if we get out of this without major disasters far greater than anything we've seen thus far (economic, military, social, environmental or some combination there of).

[July]

60. I agree with both of you.

We were perhaps misguided in having so much hope, but at least we had some. I think Bush's will leave a long, destructive legacy, so even if he's out of office, we're screwed for many years to come.

[Lorien]

113. Yep. We are without the visionary leaders of the

Vietnam era, plus, the media is far less free and independent then it was then.Also, environmental meltdown is right at our doorstep-not in some far away future.

[TahitiNut]

16. As I said elsewhere ...

... America's body politic had a "leftectomy" 20-25 years ago.

[RagingInMiami]

26. So what the hell happened?

Did many of those former hippies/anti-war protesters/baby boomers become republicans? They were supposed to be ruling the country by now.

[Bozita]

31. The chickenhawks of Vietnam are now running the country

Racism, religion, abortions, guns

Those are the steps of the Repug rise to power.

[TahitiNut]

34. In a nutshell? The transition between being a "flower child" and ...

... a "flower parent" was never accomplished -- it was NEVER mainstreamed. The precept of "don't trust anyone over 30" never escalated to "over 40" to "over 50." Philosophy was never mainstreamed. Politically, we (all of us) got corrupted by Nixon's "Southern strategy." The personal computer arrived and we became binary robots. Chicago 1968 scared us. McCarthy lost. McGovern lost. America lost.

Only the civil rights movement incorporated the goal of participation and mainstreaming. "Anti-war" folks eschewed the "establishment" with some notable exceptions: Tom Hayden and Jerry Brown. The "flower power" was not a perrenial - it died in the winter. It was relegated to the "fashion world" and bell-bottoms became passe.

I think the most important issue was that "flower power" became antithetical to service -- it really wasn't about "what we could do for our country." Civil rights was about that. "Anti-war" carried the baggage of being antithetical to national service. In abolishing the draft, the warm waters that fed the hurricane of protest were cooled and the storm died out. I think it's as simple as that. That's why we got the "Me Generation."

[Beam Me Up]

67. That certainly is part of 'what happened' to the Sixties generation...

but I also think there was more to it. By the mid Seventies many of us were engaged in a variety of 'alternative' ideas -- spirituality, ecology, alternative energy, community building and so on. I point to Stewart Brand and the CoEvolution Quarterly as examples of what I mean. The problem is we did not understand or completely underestimated the 'opposition' to 'new ideas'. NEW IDEAS such as we had lead invariably toward a decentralization of economic power (through decentralized and renewable energy sources). Fascists didn't want that.

[klyon]

68. we were sold the me generation by clever advertisers

they still control what you buy and also what you think if you let them.

KL

[Cleita]

179. I think we had better leaders then. These were people who

weren't afraid to roll up their sleeves, get into the trenches and put their lives on the line. There was Martin Luther King, the Chicago Eight of which Abbie Hoffman and Tom Hayden were a part of. I can't really remember all their names off hand. There was Angela Davis, Joan Baez and Gloria Steinmen. There was so much leadership and today the only person who comes close in the passion and will to face all opposition is Cindy Sheehan.

[Seansky]

181. the only reason I have been able to find for the lack of leadership

is that people (good and not so good) have bought so much into the "need to have welth to be somebody" that there is just too much to loose since becoming involved represents being exposed to attacks, ridicule and so on, which tends to translate into loosing your status or something of socio-economic value...

197. I agree

- also it seems the 60s were about bringing equality for blacks and women, and there was a draft. It seems now society is about class issues, whether you are making a lot of money and what your status is.

[hippywife]

194. We won.

Our generation helped end the war and win civil rights. After we won, we went on to build our own lives individually. Get our piece of the American Pie, if you will. We became materialistic and lazy. But absolutely the worse thing that we did was fail to instill in the next generation the knowledge and understanding of what had been fought for and won.

Now we are having to do it all again and I hope all of the generations coming together to fight this one together will remember to tell the tales so those that follow later don't take for granted the peace and prosperity they find themselves living in.

[Tsiyu]

211. Best answer so far

People weren't so loaded down with material crap as I recall, born circa 1959.

I would not want to go back to the days of seeing civil rights leaders sprayed with high pressure hoses on the nightly news.

Still, I feel the same sense of outrage seeing the people in NO left to die after Katrina and it makes me wonder how far we haven't come.

I see the same young faces listed among the war dead and it hits me in the gut in the same way. We made a lot of progress, but we let the bloodthirsty warmongers come back to power. We are a distracted nation as well as a forgetful one.

[sarahlee]

216. Not completely

Many of us continued to work on environmental and health issues, have stuck around to continue lobbying for the legalization of marijuana, and against the drug war. For years I spent two Saturdays a month escorting women past Randall Terry and his follower into abortion clinics.

I never stopped. My kids grew up attending meetings at the Peace and Justice Center and helping paint protest signs. My daugher is picking up as I taper off.

[daninthemoon]

237. Jerry Brown was California Gov for awhile. Tom Hayden was

a congressman, I think. I don't believe too many turned Repug.

[Seansky]

37. wow, this resonates with what I am sensing

[goclark]

110. Now, IMO,college kids may not have the same kind of energy

I was in college in the 60's and that was during the same time as the Civil Rights Movement.

MLK was there to give us a moral focus.
We have no such leader today.

The Civil Rights Leaders gave the world a picture of what was going on in America.

The Black students and older adults were doing sit ins and all kinds of things to rebel against the oppression.

And, the White students, the brave White students from Kent State and every where were going to jail, beaten with clubs and saying NO!! really saying NO! to the Vietnam war.

So many songs were saying, " What's Going On?" and students and young adults were REALLY Listening!

It was the Best of Times and the Worst of Times!

Today, we don't have the Black Marches. They(the KKK/NeoCons) killed MLK, JFK, and RFK and MALCOLM X and all the rest.

Who is our leader?

Kerry? Clinton? Edwards? Dean? Cindy? Rangel? Conyers?

[NuttyFluffers]

125. exactly. because the youth know the final solution. entropy.

the leaders refused to listen to the idealism and far-sighted wisdom from back in the 60s. in the 80s we watched hypocrisy and short-sighted selfishness embodied. in the 90s we see wholesale homogenization of all outlets of expression. that leads to the end game, the fall of empire, death by entropy. it is the final solution to all failed structures. inescapable and invincible.

when a nation dies in a people's hearts that nation dies. powermongering bastards won't obey the people, want to destroy everything, hoard all wealth and spur suffering. to these evil people in power we say fine -- now run a country that doesn't care if it lives or dies. you can't. and it will collapse. and you will die or be killed. and we the majority will still live and pick up the pieces and undo your mistakes. and your names will live on as curses upon the breaths of the living and the pages of history. that shall be the legacy of the neocons and their apocalyptic death cult enablers.

if there's an infusion of hope, of undoing the cancer that has this nation, well, have at it. more power to you. may you be victorious. but the american people now are disconnected from society and feeling wholesale, in a large part due to soulless suburbia. nothing will wake them, make them rise and act. not even the eradication of an entire city by negligence. we are a 3rd world country waiting to happen. our time is ticking. we are waiting to die. and we all know it.

fine, let the right have their shallow victory, rail against their last hurrah (bless your heart -- may you succeed), in the end it shall all be erased. you must show the youth that there is hope for change and progress, and 2006 is the last time. otherwise, oblivion waits for america... and apathy the executioner.

[OneBlueSky]

6. in the Vietnam era, the resistance began on college campuses . . .

and slowly spread to the larger population . . . there was also an active civil rights movement that gradually moved against the war . . . and, possibly most importantly, corporations did not have the stranglehold on Congress that they do today . . .

today's college students have been raised with an entirely different ethos, and the civil rights movement is but a shadow of its former self . . . the impetus for change will have to come from somewhere else, and it won't be the corporate Congress . . .

[Ptah]

22. That's an important point you made, OneBlueSky.

The success of the civil rights movement gave me hope
and courage. The civil rights movement showed to me
the effectiveness of civil disobediance. I gained hope from
the rewards of paeceful protest.
We don't have a recent success to build on,
so the cllimb will probably be more difficult.

:thumbsup:

[Seansky]

38. Do you think the baby boomers will awake

again since their rights and expectations (SS and everything they have worked so hard for) are been tampered with?

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

7. When spin stopped working, violence and death started happening

re: Kent State.

The end of the Republican stranglehold was not far behind.

They have learned from their mistakes.

The spin has been better and more controlled this time. The media is owned by the people who seek control and power, not by those who want to inform.

It seems the majority of the youth are either too dumb or too apathetic to start any kind of movement today.

[Seansky]

39. so our main hope is the baby boomers awakening?

[klyon]

70. the boomers are too old to rise again

It is up to the grandchildren to save this country from the corporate control(fascism), our children were raised to go along with authority. I would like to know what happened to the free spirit boomer thinking, I guess we had kids.

KL

[ewagner]

74. No! No we're not too old

see this:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=4389101

When we married and tried to start making a living for our families, we stopped taking to the streets and the repubs took control again.

[YvonneCa]

111. 'Scuse Me ? ? ?'

Baby boomer, here...who's too old? :D

I'm doing everything I can to get my children and grandchildren to pay attention. :patriot:

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

77. We are already awake... It's up to our Children to tilt the scales again.

I marched against Nixon and for Civil Rights in the early 70's and have been active again. There's not enough baby boomers who feel the way we do to make the difference that's needed.

It's time for people to realise that the "Greed is Good" mentality will destroy America if left unchecked.

Of course, a little education might go a long way as well.

[Seansky]

79. "Greed is Good" mentality

I agree 100% with your comment. let me ask you about another thread I just responded too about greed/materialistic driven society:

my friends and I talk about this (greed/material society) all the time, yet seems no-one is willing to give up any of the luxuries. Anyway, if giving up money (which represents giving up the illusion of material value) would equate to giving up everything that possesses a material value, would you do it?

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

81. More easily than most.

I've been homeless before. It's an amazing teacher.

Even here, to suggest one give up or boycott insurance in protest will get you stoned in the electronic square. A lot of people like to talk, but when it comes to actually giving up creature comforts, that's a different story.

[Seansky]

82. great..we already started.

our friends and I have made a resolution (buy used clothes, avoid starbucks, change our carrer paths, and so on) even though most of us are former computer geeks making good money and just got fed up with it.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

84. Don't do it for some strange act of penance, believe me,

being homeless is vastly overrated (LOL).

If you feel your heart is where it should be, act on conscious and there's a pretty good chance you'll do the right thing.

Karma's a bitch or a blessing depending on what you make it.

[Seansky]

87. no, we have been feeling serious burden

by living our life based on the money required to keep our life style...We have slowly become fed up with the vicious circle and for the last 3 years or so have started to make changes...We are very different (some conservatives, some ind. and some liberals) and all have agreed that giving up so much to the corporate world has made us kind of slaves to it and put us in positions we felt trapped...Many of us have kind of found new alternatives for making a living that didn't require us pawning our souls...we'll see how it works out.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

88. Good for you. Best of luck and keep us posted.

[stlsaxman]

105. Jesus H Christ- you sound JUST LIKE the youth of the '60's!

I felt that EXACT same way while I was growing up. All the "kids" my age did as well.

I nearly wept tears of joy.

Think globally and act locally.

Look to us for guidance, we're here for you. Ask us to join you in the struggle, we will comply. We are in this together. WE WILL BE HEARD!

ps. I know it's hip to hate Starbucks, but forgive my indulgences. ;)

pps. I have noticed a LOT of young people wearing thier hair long these days, is it just me?

[hootinholler]

130. My last haircut was Nov. 1 2004

It was a flat top, now shoulder length.

I'm one of the last of the boomers born in 60, youngest of my family.

-Hoot

[melody]

154. If you were born in '60, you're not a boomer

The boomer birth years ended at 1957 (this according to the author of the book from which the term comes). You're with me, at that awkward age, too old for Generation X, too young to be a Boomer.

[hootinholler]

172. In my mind, It's a generational thing not a date thing.

The boomers were the offspring of the returning WWII vets (I am). But you can call me what you will, everyone else does ;)

-Hoot

[Seansky]

182. How about this? The generation that followed the "flower"

bought too much into the "I want my children to enjoy total freedom" (for lack of a better phrase) that the generation that they created had to much and lack the opportunity to think for themselves and had little reason to question anything...

198. too much freedom

agree with that from my own family experience. Some of my siblings went to a "Free School", and the students got so full of themselves they fired most of the teachers. We all need disciplined mentors to lead the way.

[hootinholler]

199. I think it was more a

We won and collective sigh of relief that that couldn't happen again. I'm really not the right person to give this assessment, as I'm relatively young graduating HS in 1978. I was 11 when Nixon resigned.

I know I've raised my kids to be critical thinkers, and they often make me proud questioning *my* authority, presenting well reasoned arguments.

When I graduated, the economy was shit. I lived in what's now referred to as the rust belt. Steel mills and coal mines were closing left and right. I joined the navy to learn more tech, I was in a tech program in HS.

My siblings were raising their kids and trying to make ends meet, and things seemed on an even keel until the Shaw of Iran was exiled, the embassy hostages were held for a year and Carter was Ray-gunned by a deal cut with the Ayatollah.

So the sad reality was that the boomers thought they'd won, but, sadly, the neocons went into stealth mode. Back then the fundies (talibornagain) were simply funny to watch. I mean how could something so stoopud be a threat?

What should have been (and still should be eye-openers) were by and large shrugged off. After all the Iron curtain came down didn't it? We were safe. Oral Roberts, Pat Robertson, Contract on America, Bush the elder and BCCI, the Franklin incident. Clinton pardoning BCCI targets to save the economy (I just learned that one last week). All of those things should have gotten my attention. The demise of the 'fairness doctrine' should have gotten all of our attention.

Personally, I thought if I voted for the best choice I had, things would be ok. By this time (early '90s) I'm paying a mortgage and raising kids, fixing up the old money pit, trying my hand in business (it failed).

It took the 2004 election Ohio debacle to really awaken me into becoming active. My first protest was Jan 6 2005 to support Barbara boxer and those brave representatives who cried foul!

9/11 didn't do it. But I did get a bit suspicious about that before Iraq, but nothing concrete to rest my suspicions on, or maybe it was a it will work out attitude. I wasn't all that upset about the start of Iraq, after all I have a lot more respect for British intel than ours. That dossier swayed me.

Right now I'm pissed off at all politicians with few exceptions. I can't understand why Dems didn't get the word out about the PNAC. I mean what a gift to your political opponents! They publish they plan that they are clearly implementing, it was obvious by 2004, and you don't use it to kick their ass?

I guess I've strayed far enough off topic for now, but maybe this rambling will give you a little insight.

-Hoot

[Seansky]

203. wow, although no kids, that's pretty close to what has happened

my partner, particularly with regards to the time it took him to pay attention (he is 42). Because I grew up under dictatorships, I was able to see some of the red flags and had some influence on his realization that things weren't going on the right direction, but he was mostly, I'll say, indifferent. Now, he is more pissed off than I am. I imagine there are many, many out there sharing this experience.

[melody]

201. hey, it's my one hope of not-feeling-like-an-antique here, folks lol

[Seansky]

204. guess we got carried away on the generation comment

[daninthemoon]

187. Different dates from different people. I was born in 62 and usually

find myself included in the last of the boomers. Might be more a state of mind than an exact date, anyway.

[Blue_In_AK]

186. Funny about hair...

I'm old and female, but I haven't cut mine since the "election" either, and I don't plan to until the Neocons are out of the White House. It's silly maybe, but just my little protest. It's almost down to my waist now.

[daninthemoon]

238. Let it fly in the breeze, and get caught in the trees...

[Jeanette in FL]

91. So true

Before the 2000 election I would speak to groups of young kids, 18-20somethings, telling them what our country had gone through. How important it was to vote, to know what is being done in their name. They had so little knowledge of the Vietnam era, the draft, women's rights, abortion rights, civil rights, MLK, RFK, central America. They knew so little of what we had already done to keep this democracy on track. They thought I was just a hippie freak.

I was telling them if George Bush was elected that they would have to face wars, face a draft, face poverty, face racial divide, face womens rights going down the toilet. They looked at me as if I had landed from Mars.

So my friend (OP), we have and are still fighting the battle, come on board and as this poster said, help us tilt the scale. I am so glad that you asked this question. The replies have been so interesting to read. We have all had such similar experiences. I guess that is why we are hear.

Pick up the baton and help keep us in the battle.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

92. Kudos, Jeanette.

[YvonneCa]

112. I'd bet there are a lot who feel the same...

...and are waiting for an opportunity to get involved.

[newspeak]

224. newspeak

one of my professor's had a different take on Kent State. Students were mostly from middle-upper middle class families, he thought it was the threat from the government, that we will kill your children. After all they were white, not black, and that all were fair game.

[jedr]

8. there are many parallels;

But two major differences are that 1. The media was not controlled by the whitehouse as it is today, Good Old Walter got on the one of three news channels that you had( no 24hr news cycle) and told you the truth each night....2. There was a draft and working peoples kids were being drafted and coming home in boxes...it touched evcryone.....I'm sure there is more to be said but I have to go, someone else can pick up from here.

[Missy M]

11. The news media also showed the dead coming home in boxes...

musical artists with protest songs were not boycotted and Dixie Chicked as they are today. The college students protesting was a huge influence and much of it due to the draft. Most finally saw the light that we were fighting an unnecessary war and sacrificing so many of our soldiers for a lost cause.

[Seansky]

41. So you think that if the X generation doesn't play a role in the changes

change might not occur or be limited?

[jedr]

75. we were the boomer's, and for the first time a political force;

that had to be delt with; we were the biggest age group ever to have been....up until that point we were just used as a money maker, everything was geared to us...then we got pissed and said "hell no we won't go" so Nixon tried to shoot us on campus....that backfired big time and the rest is history ...The more who become involved the faster it will change, so let's go X'ers your time has come.

[nonconformist]

95. X'ers are in their 30's and 40's now.

Not that we don't need to get our (I'm an x'er) shit together, but the college students are ones that can really cause a stir.

[jedr]

117. we need all of you. Hope many are there next weekend;

BTW,great discussion, when a thread runs 4 or5 hrs. without a bunch of flaming it's great.

[nonconformist]

118. I had plans to go, then got served with jury duty for the 26th

Still debating on if I can go for the march on Saturday and come home Sunday.

Yes, I agree, wonderful discussion. Very thought-provoking.

[Missy M]

86. Absolutely, I think their is so much complacency with the young...

generation now and they are the ones who should be screaming the loudest. I don't see it happening at all right now. Maybe during the Viet Nam War so many calls for changes were occurring at about the same time, those being the Civil Rights movement, the Women's movement and of course opposing the war and the draft that more people became involved. I wish I would see more opposition to this horrible war we are in now, from the college students and high school students.

[political_invader]

109. What I see is people are in comfort zones

as long as they keep to themselves and there fellow man/woman keeps to themselves all will be fine. They go to soccer games, they go to dance and that is all they have time for. They listen to the MSM who tells them what is right and what is wrong. Then you have people like Jerry Farwell that tells um to vote "CHRISTIAN" :rofl: . Thats what they are told to do, Drink this KOOL-ADE, pay your taxes and defiantly don't ask any questions of your government like good little sheep.:spray:

Television is a vast wasteland. Most people view the sitcoms, action movies, action (violent) cartoons, game shows and the evening news. There is nothing in these programs that can educate our young people to make them realize the individual power they have under our Constitution.

Public Education is a "mis education" as it also does not inspire students to research further those avenues open to them to make a difference in this changing and corruptible world. A good portion of our young "graduate" without being fully literate in the big 3 (reading, writing, arithmetic).:grr:

So I am with you I also would like to see opposition to this horrible war we are in now, from the college students and high school students. However, all they seem to care about is the video game they are playing.

Peace from a Blue State!!

[daninthemoon]

239. Complacency, maybe. More like blind acceptance.

[MissWaverly]

10. I think that it is a darker mood now

There was a feeling that the government could be turned around during Vietnam, the media was more objective, and the young people were altruistic and worked for social change, now America is "poorer" in that so many people are caught up trying to keep up financially. The baby boomers usually had someone at home for them, both parents working in the 50s and 60s was unusual. I do not think there was as much rampant corruption as there is now in government. There was a feeling that at least we went into Vietnam to fight for a noble cause, it was not an oil grab. I do think that the realization that we are on a downward spiral is the same as people felt after the TET Offensive that we had to withdraw. I think that the "gut" feeling is that we must do this now as well. Honestly no matter what you believe about the Iraq War, if it is being managed as badly as New Orleans was; then it is hopeless. It will not matter if we are there for 10 years or 100 years; it will not be resolved successfully. I am not blaming the troops, I do think many down there in New Orleans gave 1000 per cent but if there is no coherent plan, leadership or organization then you have chaos.

[Seansky]

42. so how do you think this time it is going to end?

have any predictions or theories about what next?

I don't know how to see this whole thing w/o being pesimistic...

[MissWaverly]

73. I think it will be for the best

You realize that when I was a kid, people that were working to register
blacks to vote in the South were being murdered, but I think that Americans seeing black marchers (live on television) beaten and being intimidated by dogs brought about change. Americans stood up and said no, now we are seeing Katrina victims being brutally treated. Americans will not stand for this. Even the hard core repugs are squirming, I know they are thinking what is happening, America is turning into something I never wanted, I just wanted a free ride with no taxes and unlimited gas, I think people are realizing that the we are in deep water folks, if there was another terrorist attack we would be caught flat footed. I look for the repugs to do damage control, Cheney will be out due to health reasons, they will appoint someone like Giuliani to come in as VP, then Bush will be out, Delay will be out, they will try to put the lid on everything but it's too late.

[Seansky]

80. thanks for that..thinking about it I can see it as possible.

[Coastie for Truth]

12. Some observations

1. There is much less "hatred" of the individual troops. The individual GI's are not being blamed for the war. I think a lot of that has to do with the (excessive) use of the Reserve and Guard, and the (excessive) drawing down of the Guard to the extent where the response to Katrina was seriously compromised.

*There was job discrimination against returning veterans - which employers blamed on "affirmative action."
*There was discrimination against returning veterans in college, grad school, law school, and medical school admissions - which was also blamed on "affirmative action."

2. The blame is now correctly directed at Bush and Cheney and Rove and Rumsfield. The scapegoating of the war onto other issues is slowly being recognized as a "weapon of mass diversion."

*People are actually downloading the craziness from and seeing that once you get past William Kristol's wet dreams - it is all about oil, oil hegemony, oil imperialism, oil colonialism, and wars for oil.
*And some people are actually beginning to connect the dots about oil and SUVs and gasoline prices and "Peak Oil" and PNAC and Halliburton's primary business (oil field services) and the more recent source of Bush family money (oil).

3. When you get past my town - San Francisco - the anti-war movement is targeted and mainstream -- unlike Viet Nam when "The movement" went all over the map and could be represented by the "Theater of the Bizarre."

4. The "social issues" (choice, gay rights, evolution/ID, stem cell research, flag salute, Ten Commandments, ...) have been subsumed into the broader Red-Blue division within society -- and no longer define the anti-war movement.

[Beam Me Up]

18. Good points!

:hi: from Oakland

[Seansky]

43. very good points that I completly missed.

What implications, if you thought that far, would this differences might have once this admin is out? If you have any comments (trying to enlight myself so I can discuss this subject with an older friend who is constantly arguing about the differences between now and V)

Txs.

[Coastie for Truth]

55. The real implication.issue

is the sharp division in the "faith" community.

During Viet Nam the Left/Progressive faith community was our strongest ally. They shrunk in size and influence and allowed their attention to be diverted to many, many, many other issues.

But I think the Right/Conservative faith community still backs Bush (and to some extent the war)

Since I strongly identify with the Left/Progressive faith community, I am not sure how to peel away members of the Right/Conservative faith community -- but that is a challenge (and we don't have to convince them on all of the issues that divide us at this time - just the war).

[Seansky]

61. wow..you are the 5th person in the thread to point out

to the significant implications of the religios aspect...

[hootinholler]

131. Ok, here's why it's important and the monster we face

On the one hand you have the PNAC folk (and associates like the AEI, etc). They don't give a shit which way the country goes. Really. All they care about is that they will continue making money. Obscene amounts of money. In fact they are making such obscene amounts of money, they believe they personally will be able to buy their way out of any problems ahead. They look at Iraq similar to the way a stock broker looks at profit taking.

On the other hand you have the talibornagain. Check out theocracywatch.org, somewhere they have a 40 min presentation that lays out their motives and modus. Basically these people believe that God has commanded them to rule the world for Christ's return, thus the name Dominionist.

The PNAC people have realized that by acting imperially they gain the support of the talibornagain, and have leveraged that to no end.

Add in plain old greed and corruption on the other side of the aisle, and don't forget to add the media was overcome by the repeal of the 'fairness doctrine', which enabled the corporate wealth to snap up all outlets, to this equation.

The few democrats that haven't been bought or blackmailed have been refused their voice. The only one in congress that really seems to get it (about the media) is John Conyers.

Another that I don't think has been touched yet is Dr. Dean, he appears to be a man of integrity, but the DNC Chair is heady stuff and the primary function of that position is fundraising. Time will tell about him I guess.

-Hoot

Edit because I can't effin speel

[bigbrother05]

99. The role of the 'faith' community has really changed

You had Billy Graham, et al from the "God's on America's side" Amen corner, but there was a great vibrancy of outspoken religious types and leaders who helped to support and rally the opposition, the Berrigans were a good example. Think a part of it was in many ways an extension of the role churches played in the Civil Rights movement. You see much less of that now, but the corporate blindness of the MSM could be minimizing coverage.

[watrwefitinfor]

13. Important leaders spoke out against that war.

MLK, Malcolm, RFK - they all came around to a different way of seeing the war and took major positions against it.

Oh, wait, maybe that wasn't so smart of them.
They're all dead.

Wat

[Seansky]

44. man, it's so sad to notice that...Wonder about

if good ever wins...

[symbolman]

17. When the middle class started noticing that there was

a dead kid on every block the subject at Tupperware parties changed, all of a sudden their other LIVE kid in college protesting was taken seriously and the middle class joined the fray..

Nothing happens until the middle class gets it, but they are wiping out the middle class and the media is tightly controlled and death is sanitized..

When I was 16 and nearing the age of draft (draft forced me to join the USAF at 18) I would watch REAL News on TV, at 6 pm while eating dinner you'd see soldiers proudly holding up STRINGS of EARS they'd cut off of Vietcong (tho some admitted that it was hard to tell one "gook" from another - the test was that you fired on them, and if they RAN then you killed them..) and I sat there thinking, "shit, two more years and they'll be making me kill these poor bastards and I'm not mad at anyone.." as a kid I would catch moths by lamps in the house and release them so they wouldn't fry on the light bulb..

Every person who advocated peace and sanity was being murdered or assassinated, and the front page brought nasty stuff like that each day.. I would only read the funnies as I couldn't handle the rest of the paper..

Without BODIES being shown it will be harder for people to realise the HORRORS of war.. my cousins would come back and stay drunk and dive on the ground when a car backfired, or they'd sit and stare at family events.. that's when it became PERSONAL and older folks started saying, "Hey, this is BULLSHIT.."

It's all about PR folks, it's really a PR war and the only way to fight it is with PR, when they get enough people thinking negative thoughts, like the reality of NO THEN they are screwed..

THat's why I keep making flash work and films as best I can with donations and a spent mortgage, it's the only way to wake people up..

There's some light at the end of the tunnel, Bush has pissed off just about everyone so maybe they'll take their trillions and LEAVE, it's how they operate, "Just keep the MONEY and GO.."

And so they get away with it..

But I won't stop, I've seen the horror and I'll keep hammering until they pry my flash animations from my cold, dead fingers..

[Seansky]

45. can i help?

and where do I see your work (sorry about being ignorant on this)

[symbolman]

135. Go to Takebackthemedia.com

and have a look at all the work we've been doing for about 4 years now, most of our work isn't even mentioned on the site, should do a timeline to show how we screwed Limbaugh out of Millions, or else tons of sponsors, etc..

We've kicked some major ass, but there are some HUGE backsides out there so it takes a lot of kicking :)

Thanks for your response

[Seansky]

137. oh, I even have that site bookmark

nice meeting you.

[Botany]

19. different .....

No draft
CBS, ABC, NBC, and many papers reported the news.
They counted the vote too.

Morely Safer reports from Vietnam were spot on.

How many Americans know that we napalmed Fulujha (SP) right
after bush "won" his second term?

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

20. I remember people being polarized then as now but with a difference.

I don't think it went down party lines. Remember, Johnson had more to do with our mire in Vietnam than Nixon did.

[barb162]

33. remember: hey, hey LBJ, how many kids did you kill today

it was anti-war versus a political party

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

90. Exactly! One just has to recall the 1968 Democratic Convention.

[barb162]

136. I remember that so well

I had 2 finals the next day and couldn't study as I couldn't help but watching the coverage. How I passed the two classes I don't know!

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

180. I remember it all very well too. I remember attending

a Yippie meeting at the New School in Manhattan that was held to plan the demonstration. I don't recall how I wound up there, although I was very active with my HS anti-war group. The HS's name was John Bowne, who was a prominent Quaker in Flushing, Queens. Our newsletter was entitled "John Bowne Was A Pacifist". I believe we made the spirit of John Bowne proud. :-)

To get back to the meeting. I remember at some point there was a dispute and arguing insued. I was bored and decided to blow-up balloons and started to tap them around. Pretty soon, everyone was playing. Then someone recommended using condoms instead of balloons at the demonstration. I will never know if they did, as being only 16 and still in HS, there was no way for me to go. I like you watched it on tv.

[Straight Shooter]

21. What I remember is that silly slogan, "America, love it or leave it."

The one in our times which has replaced it is of course "Proud To Be An American." *gag, cough, gag*

"America, Love It Or Leave It" was eventually countered with "America, Change It Or Lose It." It was true then, it's more true, now. I feel like America is dying for lack of insight into its soul.

[Agnomen]

23. We didn't change it enough

so we lost it. These days I feel like I live in a Bizzaro world.

[Seansky]

47. that reminds of "with us or against us" * line

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

78. I had that screamed in my face more than once...

And actually had one of Nixon's SS come to my aid when I was being ganged up on. He had a big mischevious grin on his face when he gave me back my "Dump Dick" sign and got in this guy's face and said, "Back off. Everone's got an opinion."

[KharmaTrain]

25. Two Different Worlds

I've given up on comparing Iraq to Vietnam. We're in a totally different time and mindset.

Also, age plays a part. Being a young and idealistic in the 60's and 70's gave way to exprience and cynicism of growing older. The outrage I felt then is a completely different one than I feel now...and the reactions of others is far different as well.

Lastly, who is "ordinary"? I sure as hell don't like to think I'm ordinary and most people I know don't either. Everyone I encounter has different takes on what's taking place and how important it is in their lives. Many who don't like this war or regime are muted in their comments as they feel it's nothing they can control so why even talk about it.

[Seansky]

48. you're right about the ordinary comment...will

keep that in mind.

Do you think the baby boomer generation as a whole has developed same views/cynicism?

[KharmaTrain]

62. A More Complex & Different One

I discuss this with my kids constantly. They question things a lot more than I did and are a lot more sophisticated in the choices they make.

This doesn't mean they're any better, just different. There was a naive atmosphere (more so in my parents generation) that made one more accepting of the advertising messages and peer pressures. It was more uniform...everyone grew long hair, everyone wore nehru shirts and so on. Now it's far more diverse.

Politically, there's been a major tune-out in this country for decades. One half prefered to go along/get along, the other half bought into a myth of American superiority and their own right to be always right.

Hopefully we're starting to see the pendulum swing in the other direction. There's a slow but growing awakening happening in this country. Whether it will lead to another revival or more disappointment will be the legecy and/burden of their generation.

Cheers...

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

27. We were trying to overthrow the corrupt system - not "fix" it.

Today, it seems to me, the "liberals" want to tinker with the system thinking they can somehow make it work.

We, of the '60s, saw the system itself as unfixable and wanted to rid the country of the power of the wealthy, white, elite and their "traditional" values and ideas.

It wasn't just about "the war" it was about a whole system of power that made the war, perpetuated racism, sexism, nationalism, hypocrisy, and materialism.

[Seansky]

50. do you think there was

any success? Seems that the sex, equal oppty. battles have had some progress.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

69. Yes, some "successes" but the system remains.

America is a very different place from the stagnant pool it was before the '60s. But, most of the establishment remains in place. Same bosses, different faces.

[VPStoltz]

28. Nixon and his bunch created the "silent majority."

One of the differences was that they did link their supporters with God's word. Nixon, a totally conceited maniac, never said God sent him to his job. Yes, there was the "patriotism" thing then too BUT they never implied, that I can remember (I was a teenager), that those against the war were "anti-Christ" as well. This bunch in D.C. now is so self-righteous as be mentally defective.

[Seansky]

51. hmmm. interesting. I wonder when all the

fanatical points of views really started to infiltrate the social mind to define anti-war as anti-Christ...would that just happen overnight with this admin or was it being built overtime?

[TahitiNut]

30. The political alignments were different ...

... and the domestic economic conditions were far less severe.

In the 60's, there were "anti-war" constituencies of all partisan types: Democrats, Republicans, and Independents. The congruency of "left" as Democrat and "right" as Republican was far, far less clear. There were liberal Republicans and conservative Democrats. Viet Nam, rightly or wrongly, was largely seen as "Johnson's War" -- and was a huge, shadowy monster looming over any guy born between 1940 and 1952. The draft was almost universally seen as unfair and inequitable - highly variable from community to community, exempting women and favoring the sons of the well-connected and wealthy who could afford to get student ("professional students") deferments or occupational deferments. Even those medical conditions which might disqualify a guy from serving were far more likely to be detected in guys from families able to afford good care than guys from working class families. (It turns out that my congenital scoliosis of the lower lumbar would've probably gotten me a medical deferment - but I never knew I had it, other than by implication, until I was in my forties.)

Economic equity was approaching the best we had, it turns out, in the history of the country. The "War on Poverty" had a positive impact; the "middle class" was vigorous; and the progressive tax structure kept the obscenity of wealth in check. The federal minimum wage (see below) was higher in 1968 than it has ever been before or since, the income tax structure (see below) didn't favor capital gains and dividends while penalizing earned income to the obscene degree seen today, the federal debt as a percentage of GDP (see below) was at a post-WW2 low due to increased productivity and fiscal responsibility, and the Gini Coefficient (see below) was at 0.36 and getting better.

The concentration of media within heterogeneous global mega-corporations had yet to arrive and its regulation "in the public interest" was strong. There was a limit on the ratio of commercial/content time, a "fairness doctrine," and tight control on broadcast bandwidth.

Most significantly, the WW2 GI Bill was yielding massive returns. Prior to WW2, only the affluent upper class (and some maverick working class families) sent their kids to college - with the exception of "teachers colleges" which were actually regarded more like nursing schools: trade schools. The GI Bill made a college education (and a professional career) accessible to more than twice as many high school graduates. In less than ten years after WW2, the size of the college and university system in the US had more than doubled - a growth that continued into the 70's. Upward class mobility was the greatest in this nation's history! And the Baby Boomers were damned well going to take advantage of it! (An advantage that has been steadily eroded since 1972.) Viet Nam threatened this aspiration. Boom! The civil protest legacy of Civil Rights was in-place and ready to handle the activism. Campuses exploded in protest and it spilled into the streets.

It was successful. We abandoned Viet Nam. The "left" stopped speaking out and the "right" took over. We were fed a steady diet that associated the "left" with Bobby Seale, Patty Hearst and the Symbionese Liberation Army, and all manner of extremes. The moderate "leftists" never harvested the legitimate underlying issues and continued its efforts to make progress. After all, times were good, right?

That's when (1980 and later) the American body politic began to go under the knife and have a "leftectomy." We've been regressing ever since.

[Seansky]

54. thank you so very much for

providing this detailed response. Could you forward me to some links? I do like facts/stats/numbers when discussing any topic and if you have additional resources to educate myself on this, I would really appreciate the info...

[barb162]

32. the mood is not the same at all

back then things were changing fast, people were getting outraged, people were having huge demonstrations, etc., and now they basically aren't. College students were activists, and then the soldiers joined and then more and more people joined. Now, Cindy Sheehan and a few others....

[Onlooker]

46. We're moving in a similar direction

What happened at the end of the Vietnam era (when I was 15 in a politically left family), the right-wing started to retrench. They retrenched as a result of an awesome onslaught by the anti-war movement (and further pressure from powerful feminists and civil rights activists). The right-wing was so defeated at the end of the Vietnam war that they (to their discredit) hardly even welcomed the Vietnam vets home.

As I see it, it's kind of like we're in the early years of the civil rights movement. People like Cindy Sheehan are poking the beast, and a confluence of events (such as Katrina, Iraq, globalization) is making people more restless. Soon, I think, a real movement will form (anti-war, anti-poverty, anti-racism, who knows), and then other movements will form, and things will turn around.

[Seansky]

57. what about the economic outcome...

seems this time we might have lost more than what we could gain, in comparison of that era...I am 38 so have not background to compare the present situation with back then and come up with theories of the consequences...

[Onlooker]

71. I think it really was the dark ages before the civil rights era

Liberalism has mostly won. Go back to 50s, when blacks, women, gays, union workers, leftists, and others didn't have many rights, and were regularly treated in blatantly unfair ways. We're nowhere near that bad. Despite 25 years of moderate to far right leaders, we've gone back very little. I think the stench of Reagan and Bush could be erased in one term by a progressive president.

[confludemocrat]

96. Actually in 50s unions were stronger and their resources fueled the Demos

and ushered in Kennedy and LBJ, with LBJ being the President who made the 1964 and 1965 Civil Rights Act and affirmative action happen. That consigned Democrats to losses in the south, but changed the climate so that feminism could become mainstream quicker and not be a "protest movement" for a long time. And so other movements followed and you're right we have not only not gone back, but these social changes have been unstoppable, but could move forward sooner and with less strife if unions could be revived. I can see that labor was the straw that stirred the drink, despite that some of the labor movement parted ways with most liberals over Vietnam. And labor is now under assault from both sides, regretfully. But it may be the key to fueling new mass movements if it can be rebulit.

[Seansky]

97. but seems there is no longer a real labor force

no manufacturing, no organized groups and so on...at least I don't see it or hear about it.

[confludemocrat]

114. They are the UPS drivers, the Northwest mechanics, the UAW, you've seen

them, but in retail for example with the rise of Walmart in groceries, they are being eliminated and with them a driving force and power for change and mostly a living wage.

[confludemocrat]

116. in 60s race and war and class issues met in a perfect storm that was like

now. They were on a collision course because the old assumptions and new imperatives coming from the powers above were being laid bare in their internal contradictions and that their actions contradicted their stated ideals.
Woops, meant to post this at the bottom.

[Seansky]

134. been thinking about your collision course comment

Hate to sound depressing, but don't you think that today we do have also many socio-economic issues that have already collided, but which consequences haven't yet surface to the public eye?

i.e. no manufacturing left in U.S., no unions, no education, no protection for the elderly, no health care, only services job left, dollar devaluation, uncontrolled immigration, constantly decreasing in tolerance among ourselves. How, and this isn't a rhetorical qs., do you see those issues and the confused mood we currently experience because of them, relate to the mood back then? I can't seem to grasp a collective understanding of what is going on right now...

[confludemocrat]

166. I hoped I had said that those 60s conditions are like today because, it

became obvious that while expending US lives and destroying a country (Vietnam in the name of freedom then ) and killings millions of them, we had massive problems of poverty and racism at home that were not being dealt with. As Vietnam was going on full blast, race riots occurred at home all over set off by police misconduct and the grinding poverty and frustration of black people over their continued place at the bottom of the ladder. We had then as now a growing repression of dissent and domestic spying. Things are worse now but riper for change because in the 60s the middle class was in relatively good shape because of unions and manufacturing jobs, and as you mention a bit, access to healthcare and generally higher incomes so that one parent could work. Now they are on the brink of decline because of Bush economics in all areas. No way in this space to flesh it out fully, but yes, there are more problems now of bigger magnitude for common people than then,
while a failure of a war is going on. Katrina has laid bare the poverty and racism that has not been addressed and both parties are to blame but Republicans FAR more.

One more thing: Check out "Grand Expectations, the United States 1945-1974" by James T. Patterson, Oxford University Press, 1996.

[Seansky]

168. txs. I am guilty of what I am going to say...

but would you consider the possibility that not only the parties are guilty of today' state of the nation, but also the baby boomers and Gen X for so completely buying into the "more/bigger the better" consumerism environment that sparked after the 60s?

[confludemocrat]

173. Reaction against that materialistic consumerism made the hippies, I was

there, growing up in northern california in the sixties, I met and knew many of those people through my older brothers, their ideals won every argument, they were right about so many things, but drugs got them off-track and became synonymous with them-too bad. But like me, many baby boomers hold those alternative ideals somewhere in a corner of their thinking and their influence lives on. Mixed in with that consumerism is a belief in technology, "appropriate tchnology": the green movement: local food, organic ag., hybrid or low emission vehicles, all of these are unstoppable forces people have bought into concerning what people want as consumers as are computers and high speed info. But consumerism has meant bigger cars and cheaper (factory farm-produced) food with pesticides and chemicals. In other words consumerism is not inevitably bad, but can bring change that is helpful if done right. Look at Europe, they are great consumers, they even have better goods in thir stores, but they have a consensus about the importance of the environment and they use far less energy per capita than we do.

[Seansky]

183. hmm...I should look for more good in from the consumerism

trends. It just seems that it is the exact reason why US is loosing ground. Kind of like a chicken/egg situation from where I see it.

[confludemocrat]

202. one last thing: in 60s there was revulsion at militarism, not as much now

--big difference. But that may be coming back.

[Catchawave]

49. No clear and passionate leaders today :(

The Chicago 7 comes to mind ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago_Seven

[Seansky]

58. well, that I agree with

although I'm 38 and didn't experience the Vietnam era, I can easily see there isn't a leader to follow (I'm dying for some strong leader to help us out)

[Paranoid Pessimist]

142. I wish we had an Abbie Hoffman today n/t

[Catchawave]

196. I'd settle for anybody !

And welcome to DU Paranoid Pessimist....love your DU handle :hi:

[Bluerthanblue]

52. the difference is GOD.... no body tried to hide killing

behind god in vietnam. No body claimed to have 'him' in their back pocket. The God of the Nam days was a god that wanted the war to stop- pushed by people like MLK- and William Sloane Coffin and many other well spoken, people who actually listened to Jesus' call to non-violence.

The lines were drawn alot more on the basis of age, not religious buzz words. The enemy was not the 'viet-cong' but the Russians- the 'commies'. An enemy that we fought on every front. 'We' were the yang to thier yin.

This 'war' is alot more troubling, and way too deeply entrenched in the notion of 'religious' overtones which are only being used by the war mongers to hide their true god.... which is money, and power.

There is no 'democracy' in the US- we say we want to export something that no longer exists- and will settle for anything in the wake of what remains of Iraq, because the money has been guaranteed to the proper 'Co's'.

One thing about being the 'king of the world'- there is ALWAYS someone, or something looking to knock you off your pedestal- i'd far sooner live in peace as a 'not so high profile' nation, where our focus was not on 'being on top'- but on taking care of those who live within our circle, and lending a hand to those without when they need it, than on 'having it all' or 'being the fattest, richest, greediest, most ruthless bully nation on the planet.

Maybe that means leaving here- I sure as hell hope not.

[Seansky]

59. you are the third person in the thread

to point this out...it is strenght to me to see that since it also seems to me that the moral values back then were stronger than they are today (I wasn't there, but that's what I hear)

[Alamom]

53. The Draft......walk out of High School, get 6 weeks training and go

kill people in a foreign country.......
a good chance of getting killed yourself.

There were many issues, but this is what caused most ordinary people to rise up and demand changes.



Class of 1970

[Liberal In Texas]

64. Today, I don't see the younger people (20's-30') being as pissed off

as they should, and taking direct action. Perhaps its because there is no draft (yet).

We seem to have (by and large) a complacent younger generation.

[Seansky]

65. i don't know. I am 38 and all my friends from early

30s to mid 40s are also very pissed off, just don't know what to do and feel tremendously helpless.

[Liberal In Texas]

85. That's why I said by and large. I don't think all are complacent.

During 'Nam there were tons of protests at colleges and universities. That's when the killings at Kent State happened. Have you even heard of an anti-war protest at a college recently?

When the draft comes, that might wake the kids up.

[tlsmith1963]

152. 42 & Pissed

Especially since I somewhat remember the '60s & cannot understand why people aren't as angry now as they were then. What the f*** is wrong with people these days?!!

Tammy

[Seansky]

157. I think we are all angry, just that the materialism we bought into

made us compromise so much, many are so trapped in their lifestyles that the daily life decisions take priority...

I hope we can continue the thread as a dialog to release some of the anger without alienating anyone. I am learning so much from people's comment I hope it can continue.

[NuttyFluffers]

129. disagree. we just realize old tactics aren't working like they used to.

the facists got smarter about employing evil and we have to as well. protests, as wonderful as they are, are not getting on the media like they used to. they are being spun harder than they were in the past. the old tactics don't work like they used to, things need to change.

and i notice a lot of people my age have chosen complete revolution by apathy and brain drain. the numbers of youth attempting to flee the country is remarkable. next to no allegiance to the country as it is now. we are considered a lie, a joke, a false promise, a disgrace. the youth want out of here real bad. the numbers entering degrees to go overseas is increasing. the numbers of party kids i know scrambling to get visas to live and work overseas is astronomical. no one wants to fight for this country as it is now.

the system looks hopelessly corrupt. what's the best way to destroy a corrupt structure effortlessly, invincibly, and completely guaranteed? entropy. it is inescapable. not enough bodies, not enough creativity, not enough entrepeneurship, not enough skills, not enough anything. death by apathy, 100% guaranteed success. the powerbrokers at the top shall condemn themselves by their own hubris, and in the end they won't have the backup.

this is the judgment point. 2006, america: peaceful change or death by entropy. the youth wait patiently whether there's anything salvageable left. this will not be america's century, and we're looking at our options.

[porphyrian]

153. I'm curious as to why no one has comments on your posts.

I just turned 36 (though I seldom act like it), and I completely see what you're talking about. With each successive systemic loss or failure, my own optimism and hope to salvage something from what's left of the prostitued American Dream has died a little more. If it weren't for the contempt I have for people like Norquist who look forward to this government's demise, I'd say let's drown the fucker and get it over with. At this point, it may only be spite that keeps me from bailing.

However, my point wasn't to go on about my position, it was to point out the curious observation that none of the Boomers have anything to say about your posts (at least, not as of the time that I'm posting this). I was sure you would get an earfull (eyefull?). Are they ignoring you? Are they too busy talking about themselves some more? Is your position too negative for them to address? Too difficult to accept? I wonder.

[Seansky]

159. most of the comments in the thread agree with Nutty

that might be why it hasn't gottent that many responses..At the same time, seems no one of us has the capability to bail out...it must be in our nature.

[NuttyFluffers]

231. i honestly don't know. but i respect their wisdom.

i sometimes wish they'd listen to our disaffection and confusion. we were with them in the trenches ever since the coup d'etat (and before), but to hear it sometimes you'd think we were all busy with our gameboys.

they have a lot to vent, they've seen this country through some of its ugliest years, but came out of it with many successes. but hearing how that this is far worse, that their previous tactics aren't having the effect they're used to, that they are at a loss what to do peacefully, it certainly leaves the younger generations shaken. the torch has to be passed, but they already acknowledge that our fight is far different and are at a loss on how to effectively nail these evil people down. that's disheartening.

what do you do when the peaceful wisdom of the past isn't covering all bases? it's not like we have the luxury of time. we have peak oil, climate change, destabilized nuclear balance, and collapse of the american (and possibly entire global) economy all looming above like damocles' sword. one false move and that's it. one hesitation and that's it. perhaps it's fear of the responsibility of advice at this time -- i know i'd feel hesitant to say anything. the fall is coming, the matter is whether to go limp or scramble for purchase.

[Seansky]

244. well, could we look at it this way? Maybe?

No that I am an optimistic, but no one passed a torch to them on how to actually do things (excepting of course, the lessons from WWII).

So couldn't our generation use some of what they are sharing with us to look around and, using the tremendous creativity we are so privilege to enjoy txs. to technology, come up with the 21st century versions? Why would we want to defeat our capabilities when they tell us is a different one, particularly since some of the differences might work in our favor?

Just a thought!

[daninthemoon]

240. That's about my feeling, these RW neocons are so baltant in

the things they just absolutely know they can get away with, how can we stop them now?

[Seansky]

245. Considering that their strategy is totally based on spinning and always

turning everything against that which attacks their agenda or challenges their power, we could do two peaceful things:

1. Help them spin themselves to death by throwing more challenges from all directions to them on absolutely everything they do or come up with. See, sooner or later they'll end up have to spin against their own tails, wouldn't you think?

2. Accept that we won't succeed overnight and that the cycle has a bit longer to closed itself so prepare ourselves with enough challenges to throw at them at all times from all directions until soon we see their tails catch up in the spinning. The challenge for us is accepting the casualties of this process. That drives me nuts.

[Seabiscuit]

72. The biggest difference is that there was a draft back then.

There are many differences and many similarities though.

The draft really made it a life-and-death issue for those of my generation. As a result, we were far more mobilized and outspoken than people have been about the Iraq war.

[Seansky]

83. so the moment that the word "d" comes out of the admin (hopefully it never

will) the younger gen might be awaken...High price to pay I think

[nadinbrzezinski]

104. And why I actually favor one

cruel yes, but nothing else will do it... I fear

[Bozita]

121. A universal draft awakens all ... Everybody begins to pay attention

No deferments.

Americorps, Peace Corps or the military.

[nadinbrzezinski]

158. no, not America Corp

No, not Peace Corp, the LINE MILITARY

Only exceptions are Medical and CO, and in that case, you can and will opt for civilian service for three years...

[Freedomfried]

89. There was better acid back than, thats for sure

e0m

[proud2BlibKansan]

94. Not near as bad

It may get that way but we aren't there yet.

During the height of the Vietnam War protest era, there were nearly constant demonstrations. And all over the country. What I am hoping will happen in DC next weekend happened frequently during the last few years of the Vietnam War. And it woke the country up.

[B Calm]

98. I was born in 1951.. The kids today are not facing the draft like we

were. I do see a growing rebellion in this country, but nothing like in the early 70s.

[Dan]

101. one thing tho'

With all the radical stuff; Vietnam, Watergate, Hippies, Black Panthers, RNA, Weathermen/WeatherUnderground, etc....

It was never this ugly...

because all the various groups, were each in their own way, trying to make America a better place.

It was never as ugly as it is today..

[stlsaxman]

115. True true.

There was a cohesion between the differing groups. One cause- many groups.

[B Calm]

120. You forget Kent State?

[confludemocrat]

175. and Jackson State, the "black Kent State" incident, I would call it,

which happened in that same post-decision to bomb Cambodia by Nixon timeframe.

[understandinglife]

102. If we had a draft today, blood would be flowing in the streets of America

... for perspective -- I participated in demonstrations against the Vietnam war in south texas in 1967 - 69.

For many reasons, I think it would be way worse now than anything that happened from 67 through 74.

And, I think, draft or not, we are going to see the Nation erupt soon.


Peace.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

107. 1967-68 were never as depressing as 2001 and beyond

We still had OPTIMISM. We thought that if only we could stop the Vietnam War, we could create a near-heaven on earth in the United States. The Great Society programs were still going strong--and doing a lot of good, despite what the Republicans like to say about "poverty won the War on Poverty."

Since then we've had Watergate, the oil crisis with resulting inflation, the Church Committee report on the CIA (conveniently forgotten today), Reagan's reactionary revolution, the interventions in Central America and the Caribbean, the Democrats allowing Reagan to cripple the labor unions and allowing the banks to destroy the family farm, double digit unemployment in the first Reagan administration, the nomination of lackluster Dem candidates in 1984 and 1988, the diversion of the "peace dividend" from the end of the Cold War to other purposes, the stagnation of blue collar living standards, the whole yuppie culture of "get rich and screw everyone else," the hounding of Clinton, the victory of Newt Gingrich's band of vultures, Clinton's own capitaluation to the Republicans on many issues, Gore's failure to distinguish himself sufficiently from Bush and the Dems' failure to fight the 2000 election wisely, the continuous (not continual, continuous) disaster of the first Bush administration, the choice of a "safe" candidate in 2004 and his failure to fight for himself...

It's enough to wear a baby boomer out!

By the way, the idea that all baby boomers sold out and became suburban greedheads is a Republican-sponsored myth. There were plenty of Young Republicans in my generation, and they have remained so. There were plenty of boomers who really didn't care about politics but joined the movement to enhance their social life and moved on to disco dancing when that became the next fad. But for plenty of us, the events of the past 38 years have driven us even further left than we were then.

When you go to DC, check out the crowd. There will be a lot of gray-haired people there, as there have been at every anti-war demonstration I've attended since I started getting gray around the edges myself.

[Seansky]

108. so you think things started getting depressing in the seventies and worst

after 01?

[WhiteTara]

119. when disco came and the music died is when it

started getting bad and it has slid to hell in the proverbial hat basket ever since.

[tlsmith1963]

151. Oh, it Wasn't That Bad Then

We had punk rock. Enough said.

Tammy

[Lydia Leftcoast]

123. They were slightly depressing in the seventies--

mostly because I was a graduate student trying to survive in a time of inflation, but they got REALLY depressing after Reagan took office and the Dems seemed unable or unwilling to keep him and his cronies from ravaging the country.

[hootinholler]

132. I was thinking it started when

Carter got Ray-gunned.

-Hoot

[DemReadingDU]

122. I'm in my mid 50's

so yeh, I was around during the Vietnam war, but I didn't really pay much attention. I was aware of the war, the protests, but it didn't really affect me personally. Back then, I was busy with college, marriage, babies, jobs...like a lot of people nowadays. Not until 2004 did I become energized and politically aware, and finally woke up with Bush 'winning' re-election. It still boggles my mind that this could have happened.

So it is with Katrina, a significant event, that is finally waking up more and more Americans to see how Bush had deceived them. It is with Katrina that people are finally paying attention, becoming angry, because it is affecting them now.

[Seansky]

127. have you met other people like you that are recently saying

enough is enouhg and are finally paying attention? and if so, are they of your generation?

[0007]

141. It boggles my mind that you were in your mid 50,s during

the Vietnam time, and was busing with marriage, babies, going to college and your livelihood. Not saying it is impossible, just saying that I think it is remarkable that you started so late in life. You must be at least around 84 now, 'eh? To your good health 0'buddy.

Peace.

[Seansky]

143. think DemReadingDU said "am in my 50s" now

[0007]

145. Sorry! I didn't read it that way. I was in my mid 30's in those days.

It took about three and a half years for the country to wake up and when it did all hell broke loose. We're getting there now, and a good way to measure it is by the poll numbers. Nixon's poll numbers were in the mid 20's when he resign. He was a hated man. Much like junior.

[Seansky]

147. many have brought up the difference about the role played by

religion. Being in your 30s back then, what's your take on the way/reason so many baby boomers are supporting the current role of religion in the state (almost as if they do not want separation of religion and state)

I ask this because of need to understand it better and generate dialog, not to incite negative discussions.

[0007]

174. I was fairly far left in those days, especially after the lies that were

told us during the Korean War, and finding out later what it was all about. The baby boomer's have bought a sale of goods that are slowly being exposed. If the baby boomer could have read Howard Zinn as a High School course, it would be a different story today. And the book I'm talking about is, "Passionate Declarations".

Capitalism defeated most hippy dreams, and then came the yuppy to replace the hippies image. With the help of the Christian fundamentalist. A thing the right wing has learned to manipulate, with the "Born again thingie", with build in fear factors.
Life became a game of money once again. The greedy little kids are still playing "Rumpelstiltskin. While the people like Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson & kids like junior, Rove, and the Carlyle boys and the Halliburtons, are running the country.

The same spirit that brought Nixon and Vietnam down will bring down this Administration and will bring an end to the strife in the Middle East. It can't last.

[daninthemoon]

189. I think religion in America itself has changed somehow. Back then,

the biggest churches were the established ones like Methodist. Today most Methodist churches are at least half empty on any given Sunday. Meanwhile Southern Baptist and Pentacostal churches have exploded. No offense to those faithful, butthose places are much more geared to blind acceptance of authority.

[DemReadingDU]

169. I am mid 50's now, it takes awhile for some to wake up

so while many of us, now, see the state of the country under Bush, it still may take others many more years to become fully aware. It will take a significant event, like Katrina, to nudge them awake.

[Seansky]

184. so why don't we think differently in regards to looking for that

new way things could change? is that even conceivable?

[onenote]

124. difference: the draft

If you weren't around you really can't appreciate how much the existence of the draft makes the situation then different than now. The Vietnam War impacted so many more people...if you were of draft age, even if you had a privileged upbringing, you were at risk. Sure, the better off you were the more likely you could figure out a way to avoid service, but the impact was there. Today, there is a growing number of people who are "activists", but nothing compared to then...

onenote

[Seansky]

128. yeah, not having been there makes it very

difficult to understad (reason for my original qs) and although I grew up under two dictatorships (3rd world) there is nothing to compare with the Vietnam era that I can relate to. But it is the only time in recent history that seems to come close to what is going on. But of course, I wasn't there so I needed to hear(read) from those that experience.

[melody]

156. And the countering influence on *that* is the internet

More young people are outraged about lots of other things.

Frankly, I see more activism in my niece's generation than I did my older sister's generation (the '60s).

[Seansky]

160. thanks so much for point that one out

keep forgetting that Internet and digital video technology have practically made MSM irrelevant, providing a new power to the masses.

[daninthemoon]

190. I was born in 62, so growing up I just assumed that the normal course

of life would be that at 18 I would be drafted and killed. As a child I thought that that was America. The protests back then definetely saved lives.

[Seansky]

205. had not thought about what it would be growing up under

that threat. did it stay with you for a while after the threat was over?

[daninthemoon]

235. Yeah, for me. The war and then the draft ended, so I came to realize

that my assumptions about inevitably being cannon fodder were gone, at least in the way I supposed. I grew up in SO California, so as a child my friends and I would see helicopters flying out daily. My neighbor's older brother joined the Coast Guard to avoid Nam, but ended up shot in what they told his family was a game of russian roulette. Never did believe that. Anyway, it did take me awhile to figure out that being an American didn't mean that you would inevitably end up as a name scrawled across the nightly news.

[Seansky]

126. It seems everyone in this thread, regardless of background and philosophy,

is eager for an honest, open, respectful and level head dialog. Seems that with all the anger we are experiencing, a calm, but serious conversation is very welcome...I know it's been very useful for me. And the fact that there are multiple generations in this thread willing to enhance the dialog makes it even more encouraging.

[hootinholler]

133. Than that is why I just rec'd it. Need four more people!

This thread is a nice change.

-Hoot

[Jeanette in FL]

138. I just did too

I can't believe that so many of us neglected to recommend this thread while we were discussing. I have enjoyed this as well.

[Catshrink]

139. "Nixon withdraw like your father should have."

That was scrawled on many a wall.

[Seansky]

140. forgive my ignorance, but could you expand

on the line? I believe I read it in a book/article, but don't recall the context (feel dumb asking)

[Catshrink]

144. Okay

Nixon withdraw: meaning Hey, Nixon, withdraw the troops from Vietnam.

Like your father should have: meaning if Nixon's father had withdrawn before ejaculation, Nixon wouldn't have been born.

[Seansky]

146. do I fell dumb

txs.

[Catshrink]

150. No problem....

I was about 12 and didn't get it until much later.

It still fits though, huh?

Georgie withdraw like your father should have. One less member of the BFEE.

[Seansky]

161. it does, but now it could also apply to the Gulf war, and much more

[European Socialist]

149. It's the economy stupid-good jobs were much easier to find...

and other than Vietnam-times were good.

[hootinholler]

171. Although this thread didn't make the greatest page

Its proxy did. I thought you might like to know.

-Hoot

[newportdadde]

176. Great thread. We need more of these here.

Nominated.

[IndyOp]

185. I wanted to add two comments:

First, the battle for civil rights was a huge part of why the Vietnam era protests built steam. For decades now the divide between upper-middle & upper class blacks and those left behind has grown and grown. Now, post-Gulf Coast holocaust, the battle for civil rights will begin again.

Second, I believe that we have leaders who could be elevated to the status of King (Jackson, Sharpton, Jim Wallis) and other leaders -- it *is* happening, it just isn't appearing in the corporate media. The situation is like the old philosophical question, "If a tree falls in the forest and no one is there to hear it, was there a noise?" In regards to our issue, "If George Galloway/Cindy Sheehan/Rev Jackson/Dennis Kucinich/John Conyers/Amy Goodman draw huge supportive crowds to their events and none of the corporate media show up to cover it, was there an event?" I think the answer is 'yes' and we must, must, must find ways to communicate with each other - DemocracyNow and Air America and alternative news magazines and internet news sites -

We are NOT alone. We are NOT a minority in having the concerns we have.

Civil disobedience - peaceful in nature - may be necessary to 'catapult the truth'.

[Seansky]

188. so, if MSM has sold it soul, and video clips of protest such as

what happened in front of WH when Bush took office in 00 don't make it to mainstream, would you agree that communications venues such as DU must allow complete inclusiveness to become the grass-root, word of mouth platform for the new movement required to make the needed social changes? sorry about the terribly long qs.

[IndyOp]

191. What do you mean by 'complete inclusiveness' ? (nt)

[Seansky]

206. thanks

I meant considering many different points of view and experiences.

Edited to say as it does now but in larger scale.

[snot]

192. My two cents

I'm a tail-end boomer. I agree with pretty much everything said so far, but would like to expand slightly re- the media and a few other items.

Basically, rich conservatives began concerted efforts to take over the media and education almost four decades ago--I forget when but I think it was in the late 60's or early 70's, because they did NOT like what was happening. And they'd already managed to acquire ownership of the vast majority of the media by the early 80's.

To my mind, the boomers' biggest mistake is that most of us failed to realize that this was going on until it was largely accomplished. (If you're not familiar with Noam Chomsky and others' work re- the RW takeover of the media, a great start is his video, "Manufacturing Consent".)

As a result, a big difference I see now is that while young people are aware that they don't like what's going on, they are NOT aware of the degree to which they've ALREADY been brainwashed. Anyone born later than 1975 has lived most of their thinking lives immersed in a RW media soup.

Because of the media and all the related think tanks, foundations etc. that the RW put in place, the whole conversation has shifted so far to the right that what was in the 60's the most conservative position any pol might express on most issues has literally now become the most liberal position any modern pol might express.

I'm not saying that all young people totally buy into the RW bill of goods. But I almost get the feeling it's difficult for them to fully imagine alternative solutions.

E.g., I get the impression that even liberal young people have somewhat bought into the ideas that socialism doesn't work, private enterprise is more efficient, regulation is bad, that religion is necessary as a source of moral values, etc. They believe they saw socialist principles fail with the fall of the Soviet Union, notwithstanding that there exist today many European socialist democracies that, compared to the U.S., look downright utopian.

(Don't get me wrong--I'm not a socialist. HOWEVER, it seems fairly obvious to me that some kind of balance between socialist-type programs & regulation, vs. capitalist-type incentives, is absolutely necessary--that completely unfettered capitalism is as tyrannical, corrupt, and destructive as Communism was.)

I've attended a number of protests during the last several years, and I can confirm that I've seen VERY FEW young people. I was in Crawford the last Saturday of Cindy Sheehan's protest there, when the Republicans made their big effort to get counter-protesters there, and one thing that almost made me laugh was that you could see all the Repubs' frustration because for the most part they couldn't tell by looking at the protesters which side they were on--because the majority on both sides were dumpling-shaped, middle-aged folks in bermuda shorts.

Thank heavens for the internet; but the RW is already curtailing our freedom there and is hard at work to get greater control over it. Also, I doubt most folks with kids are going to spend an hour or two every nite on the internet trying to find out the real news.

So I believe we MUST work on media reform. (Please note there is legislation pending to that effect; see info here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=4804949&mesg_id=4804949 . Also, pls support efforts such as Air America and Current TV.)

Ditto education.

And EVERYTHING depends on election reform. (For info on legislative efforts, go here: http://www.verifiedvoting.com/article.php?list=type&type=43 )

I have a button left over from the 60's that says, WHERE THE PEOPLE LEAD, THE LEADERS WILL FOLLOW.

One more difference . . . it seems to me that in the 60's, celebrities also took more of a lead in speaking out--both rock bands and Hollywood types. Hard to quantify, but. Another effect of the trend toward greater RW control?

[despairing optimist]

200. I'm a second-half boomer too, and I'll start the auction at 2 cents

for bidders buying my opinion.

Our older siblings were the scruffy students going barefoot on city streets and ironing their hair and wearing two pairs of jeans to every demo--that is, when they weren't gaming the student loan system by banking money lent to them at 2% and collecting 5% for it and dreaming up ways to win over their local draft board for a deferment.

From the point of view of an adolescent in the mid- to late 60s, it was, as the song said, the eve of destruction. Two Kennedys, Medgar Evers, Malcolm X, and Martin Luther King all felled by assassins. Riots in LA, Detroit, Newark. Student takeovers of college campuses. Kids screaming at their screaming parents--generation gap. Police riot at the '68 Democratic convention in Chicago. And night after night, news reports of soldiers dying in rice paddies. Every week the Pentagon would release casualty figures: 117 US dead, usually five times as many Vietnamese dead--were they cooking the books? Probably. It was a sick, deadly game. The protests, riots, sitdowns, and strikes were leaving us kids with a sense that things were out of control and the grown-ups we'd trusted didn't really know what was going to happen.

What some people on this thread would probably characterize as apathy setting in as the war wound down in the early 70s was, IMO, a collective sigh of relief as we tried to achieve the stability we'd longed for in the rollercoaster 60s. The Me Decade, as it has come to be remembered, was a generation taking a breather. The world wasn't coming to an end after all. But reactionaries who'd had to back off from their aggressive, militaristic, and imperialistic agenda didn't take a breather, and that's how we get to where we are now. They analyzed what went wrong (to their minds, not ours) and set about fixing government and the press to their advantage. Watergate and the Nixon resignation were--in conjunction with Congress's defunding of the Vietnam war in '75--the high point of reforms forced upon the ruling elites, and they were determined never to let such a defeat happen again.

The current mood is the fruition of the RW's labors. It saw the majority's desire for peace and stability, seduced it with ever more trinkets to add to what it promoted as the American dream, and got people to think their interests were closely allied with those of the elitists. And here I'm going to break with the more pessimistic voices on this thread: I'm going to ask people to remember their Hegelian dialectics, particularly this, "The source of one's weakness is the source of one's strength." The very tool that has been used to buy off the masses has turned into a boomerang.

All the technogadgets (PCs, cable, cell phones, iPods, etc.) tie into the MSM in some way. Information used to be restricted to the privileged but is now instantly available to anyone just about anywhere. There's too much money to be made to restrict this information flow; the downside risk is too great. Had this been the case in the 60s, LBJ and RN would not have been able to prolong a war that DUers and bloggers would have been able to call them on.

Yes, the American public is waking up now as it did in the late 60s and early 70s, but there's more to it than that. It's waking up much faster. Okay, pin me down; ask me how much faster. Several times faster, I think. For every year of the late 60s, make it a few months of 2005 through 2008. Feel better now? Good!

I've been a member of DU for at least 18 months, and I enjoy the exchanges tremendously. But please stop being so pessimistic. Even Hegel allowed for human agency. Nothing is inevitable unless good people do nothing. The 60s and early 70s were historic times, and usually that means the people living through them had to deal with a lot more pain and loss than usual. We're living in equally historic times (unfortunately without as good music, but I'm being selfish and venal with that remark). The bad news is that more people will suffer losses and die before positive changes ensue, but those changes will follow in less time than they took 35 years ago. Again, I'll give you my intuitive 2 cents' worth for a time frame: probably three or four years of hell to endure, compared with a 12-year Vietnam/assassinations/riots/Watergate period from 1963 to 1975.

Here's another difference between then and now. As a kid then I was afraid more than tearful and angry, and now I'm more tearful and angry than I am afraid. And I'm not an old boomer. Whoever wrote that speaks for himself. There's plenty of spunk left for this time, and when it's time for me to leave this world, I'm determined to leave it better than it is now. So I'll see you guys next Saturday in DC.

[Seansky]

207. Boomerang... great post. Although many comments in the thread

may seem/sound pessimistic, it seems to me, and I know I could be totally wrong, that everyone has the underlying expectation/hope, and even dedication, to see the changes taking place. Maybe it is that no one has tented to put a time line for when we could see the light at the end of the tunnel and discourage surface in our comments. And the time length comparison you did puts a lot of things in perspective for me.

Or maybe, just maybe, many of us share the same cynicism of Despairing Optimist...

I really enjoyed your post.

[despairing optimist]

214. Glad you enjoyed the post, but I didn't intend to be cynical

I associate cynicism with pessimism, and I expressed hope that this time things would be better than they were last time. If I had been cynical, I would have said that things would never improve and we were doomed to a bad fate. I don't believe that at all. There's a great potential now for genuine improvements to be made in cultural attitudes as well as quality of life, providing for education, housing, health care, employment opportunities, and so on. Maybe my disappointment with what happened years ago sounded like cynicism, but when I wrote it I didn't mean for it to cast a shadow on my outlook for now and the future.

I remain a despairing optimist, someone who sees that the world can get better but who worries that the people who can make that possible may be fooled into feeling hopeless. If a cynic can be said to know the price of everything and the value of nothing, a despairing optimist can be said to believe that all is for the best while fearing the worst in the meantime. Despair is no match for optimism when hope refuses to surrender the future to the past. My apologies for sounding like a fortune cookie, but I hope you understand my position more clearly now.

[Seansky]

215. yes, I really do, and I did interpreted it incorrectly.

still, I loved your post.

Txs. for the clarification.

[eridani]

208. Leading edge boomer here

The most striking difference was our astonishingly naive idealism. We grew up in an era where most people did better and better each year, and we believed all that stuff in the civics books about how democracy worked. We were shocked, SHOCKED! that this was not reality. I can't conceive of a song like Abraham, Martin and John ever becoming a popular hit these days (http://www.songfacts.com/detail.lasso?id=2724). For all the passionate commitment of the self-organized campaigns of Dean, Kucinich and Clark, they will never appear as subjects of that kind of song. People of all ages are far too cynical for that. In a way that is good--much more realistic--but the danger is that it can lead to hopelessness.

Economically, everything was much easier, even for the unemployed and low income. One verse of a song I wrote for my husband's birthday goes

Remember those times in the 60s?
The outrageous things that we did.
33 cents for a gallon of gas
Marijuana for ten bucks a lid.

I needed only $3000 in loans for a comparatively expensive private school education, paid back at 2% interest. State and college fund scholarships were very generous, particularly for science and engineering majors (thank you, Mr. Kruschev, for Sputnik). Access to higher education has been seriously degraded since the mid 70s.

The mainstream media was not so consolidated, and they almost never lied. Its main problem was what it left out--all their sins were sins of omission. Offset printing got cheap, but we still had to type everything out and there were serious production time lags for alternative newspapers.

Vietnam seemed to most people like something we gradually slipped into, like a frog sitting in a pot of water slowly being heated. Iraq is so much more a deliberate, avoidable, flagrant choice.

[Seansky]

217. cynicism point

Despairing Optimist just posted a couple of good comments above that relate to the cynicism point. I think both of you are onto something here. I guess I am one of those that have grown into a cynical person, yet I wouldn't be writing here if I didn't have hope. Do you see this kind of contradiction in all those perceived as cynical?

[eridani]

233. I don't think that naivete is a virtue

Those younger people who care to get informed in the first place these days are far, far more well-informed than we were. They don't have to reinvent the wheel.

I think we were more optimistic because the world was in nowhere near as much trouble then as it is now. We saw racism and sexism (and later homophobia) as things that could be fixed. We had a couple of billion fewer bodies on the planet, and far less ecological stress. Also, fundie Christians were pretty apolitical back then.

[sarahlee]

219. Great post

Mostly I agreee, but I just had to interrupt to mention this:

For all the passionate commitment of the self-organized campaigns of Dean, Kucinich and Clark, they will never appear as subjects of that kind of song.

I certainly agree that we sure had the music a movement needs, but Dean, Kucinich and Clark have not been assasinated yet... and I certainly hope no one has to be attacked and/or murdered for things to turn.

Praying for good turnouts on the 24th.

[eridani]

232. I was thinking of the very naive idealism of the music

The political music of today is actually far more sophisticated and aware, IMO. It just doesn't seem to get as widely known. For all the commentary on people's supposed idealization of people like Chavez and Galloway, I think that activists expect more of themselves and less of even the best leaders than was formally the case.

[daninthemoon]

236. If the record company execs wanted to, I'm sure they could find

hundreds of quality anti-war political songs to produce today.

[daninthemoon]

241. Like the song. Care to share some more?

[checks-n-balances]

209. Vietnam sucked the $ AND EFFECTIVENESS out of the Great Society programs

This is a little-known and overlooked fact, an important one that I didn't realize until I heard an audiotape of MLK, Jr. called "Beyond Vietnam" where he made a reference to this. I don't know the details, but knowing about this helps to explain what happened. It always makes my blood boil when I hear rightwingers condemning social programs because "they don't work". Sure they don't work when they are underfunded and unsopported. It is disingenuous at best to criticize them without telling the whole story, but when does that NOT happen these days?

Sorry if someone else has already pointed this out in this thread. Haven't had time to read it today, so I'm bookmarking it for later. Thanks for asking the question. There are so many parallels between then & now and it seems that so few people have learned from the mistakes of the past. I have to admit ignorance back in those days myself, although I was only in high school at the time.

[VOX]

212. In the 60s-70s, there was a media that actually reported news...

Without all the Jerry Springer-style verbal mud-wrestling. There was, for the most part, three networks, the local paper, and Life Magazine. Reporters and photographers were allowed access to front-line stories, and so the war came into the living rooms of America. The carnage and suffering were visible.

Of course, there were right wingers, but there was no right-wing hate radio.

There was a large number of African Americans and young people that were ready, willing and able to take to the streets to be heard.

There was a unified movement in the arts -- film, music, writing, that had a singular purpose.

Every one of these situations is different today. Regrettably.

[Seansky]

218. maybe because everything got so saturated?

going back to some posts above about bying into the materialistic the more the better?

[PlanetBev]

213. I started college in 1968

I don't even recongnize this country anynore. In those days, Democrats stood for something. We had fighters like Eugene McCarthy, Gaylord Nelson, and until they were assasinated, MLK and RFK. Young people were engaged and organized, as they knew they could be drafted and have their asses shot off. We had a press that asked questions, and who didn't censor themselves to please the White House. We had shows like the Smothers Brothers, where the writers took risks and broke the rules. The early days of SNL were great too. Now we have a.m. hate radio and Fox News. Everyday, from coast to coast, this nation is being blanketed with vicious propaganda that has brainwashed half the country.

A guy like Bush wouldn't have a snowball's chance in hell to be president, and the Christian Right never would have gotten this far. Bush is so horrible that when I was visiting San Clemente this weekend, I got nostalgic about Richard Nixon.

I miss America. I hope some future generation stands up and takes this country back. I'll do my part and keep fighting, but I'm getting a little burned out.

[newspeak]

220. remembering Vietnam

I think that there was more idealism back then. The thought that we could make a change. However, looking back at the sixties, not everyone was protesting, a matter a fact they were actually in the minority. With an increase in deaths in Vietnam more young men became activally involved. I mean who wanted to be killed in a rice paddy over a questionable idealogy?
I believe most citizens still had that "age of innocence" about their country, even though John and Bobby had been assissinated. So the Vietnam protests grew, because of "self-interest" on some young people's part and other's because of seeing the Horror of the war. Scenes that are mostly censored today. You actually had independent jounalists in Vietnam reporting what was going on there, instead of being "embedded." The draft was a major issue, and I can remember my senior year in highschool, my friends having a low lottery number having to go into the military. For God's sakes, we were just kids! I was in a pretty progressive highschool at the time, and one day we all wore black arm bands and walked out of our classes all together at a certain time in the day. The teachers walked out with us. There was still the flavor in main stream society of mom, pop, apple pie and chevrolet. There was less spin, than there is today, and commercialism. I mean their was commercialism and consumerism, but not like today. In protests, for instance, the Catholic church was clearly anti-war, nuns, priests.

[newspeak]

222. continued

Pope John XXIII, was reforming the church to reflect the times. I remember the folk masses. The church was involved in the civil rights movement and the peace movement. Movies such as Zabrinski's Point, Strawberry Statement, Easy Rider, and of course, Woodstock, were showing parts of a counter culture. And, the music, clearly showed a wave of conscience. Of course, if you look at the top hits at the time, you'll see some real "bubble gum music." And the response to the counter culture was cointel-pro and assimilating the counter culture into the dominant society or ideology (like Laugh In). The "young" religious movement definitely was "pro-Jesus", not the old testament crap of today. You didn't have these "right-wing "un-think" tanks like you do today! Some of us were going to change the world, a utopic society, away from the puppet string pullers. Some turned to communes. I believe some were attempting to change the paradigm of society, away from the "powers that be." The same powers that have been pulling the strings for over a hundred years in this country.

[Seansky]

223. with regards to your earlier point about it being the minority

was it your perception back then that, up to a certain point and time, the protesters were a small group that enable the grow of the anti-war movement and if so, do you believe that the current small group could produce similar results, at least about ending the war? Or do you think too many things are different for the movement to grow as it did back then?

[newspeak]

228. yes, it was a minority

when looking at the sixties today, some think that the so-called dissidents and "hippies" were in the majority, but that's not true. When I say bubble gum songs like "Sugar Sugar" were in the top ten, instead of songs that were more politcally subversive, that's because "Sugar Sugar" fit in the dominant societal theme. The anti-war movement eventually grew to include those from dominant society, instead of just the fringe. The majority of the students during Kent State were average, pen in your pocket, short haired "geeky" types, not interested in civil protest. I'd say the "fringe" society did make an impact, but at first mostly were looked upon with derision. Because of the draft, young men had a vested interest in not going to Vietnam and mother's and father's losing their children, began to question the motives of a long never-ending war.

[Hardrada]

221. In the Sixties you had a popular culture

starting with the folk singers and Beatles too that turned leftward and antiestablishment FASTER than the media lords anticipated and so the old Freedom Train went right through the station without stopping and so the moneyed fascists of that era were absolutely blindsided and since then have taken every step to make sure no aspect of popular culture will ever be remotely revolutionary again. Not to the very great extent that it was anyway.

[newspeak]

225. Bingo

music influences culture, and today music is mostly "canned." I mean the corporations promotes it or shoves it down the throats of the consumer. The corporations mainly determine what is going to be heard. On the radio, sometimes, you'll hear the same song over and over, because tthe corporation paid for the song to be played over and over. Most of the time there shoving sex, sex, sex, down consumer's throat, instead of social conscious music.

[daninthemoon]

242. MTV & VH1 killed the radio star. Only corporate approve music

from now on.

[Seansky]

226. Thanks. Wouldn't the Internet be today's equivalent?

I mean, since it represents today's pop anything and it can't be stopped? Couldn't the Internet be that pop culture revolutionary tool generating equivalent result that music did back then (although I agree it isn't as appealing as music is)? Just wondering if you could see the Internet providing that opportunity since I can't see anything else.

[Hardrada]

230. I think it is revolutionary in its own way

but is more cerebral. Not as "hot" a medium as radio legendarily is. It is getting better and more sophisticated all the time and its benefit is that it operates in a present time one can immediately participate in if only to vent and rant! As I sometimes do.

[Seansky]

227. learning from the past - Good Night, and Good luck

Melodybe started this thread



Wonder if the MSM will ever remember what it forgot.

[newspeak]

229. newspeak

In regards to Vietnam and today, today you have a quicker response and more people (because of the internet) informed about our government and the ware in Iraq. Vietnam festered for years, and probably because of the "red scare" that we were indoctrinated into. The marches against the war in Iraq was immediate and there were more marches at the beginning of this war, equal to those at the end of Vietnam. I believe there are many more aware people today, than there were in the sixties. How many people does it take to change the paradigm? Twenty percent maybe. I think today we have that, and that's what gives us hope. With that, I say "Good nite."

[daninthemoon]

243. You reminded me of one of the biggest parallels. US support

for Viet Nam hinged on the Gulf of Tokin incident. False claims by the administration that required massive military response to defend America. Fat forward: WMD false claims that required massive military response to defend America.

[Seansky]

234. Omega Minimo: Seize the moment, Create the future, Catapult the propaganda

Check this thread out. Relates to many of the previous posts in our thread.

[mnhtnbb]

246. Corporate, right wing control of the media

I was born in '51 and grew up reading the NY Times. Boy, it was a true liberal paper in those days. I watched Walter Cronkite do the evening news. There was honesty and integrity in journalism. It wasn't about entertainment, ratings, and making a buck. There were lots of family-owned newspapers in smaller communities.

Now the right-wing corporate media machine has taken over. There's hardly any interest in investigative journalism. There are no Woodward/Bernsteins today. Where's the equivalent of Daniel Ellsberg and the Pentagon Papers?

On top of that, I think there's been a sea change in attitude that government could be a force for good. I lived in CA when Ronald Reagan was Governor there (his signature is on my 1973 BS from UCLA) and witnessed first hand how he set out to destroy publicly funded institutions--like the University system in CA.

Another big change is the respect for science and knowledge that was prevalent when I was growing up. It's ridiculous that 40 some % of the country believes the universe is 40,000 years old! They don't believe in evolution, they want the myths of the Bible taught in science classes! There is a real trend today to not thinking for yourself. Followers of Rush Slimebaugh are proud to call themselves 'dittoheads'. It blows me away how the country has become a nation of sheeple, fearful of confrontation. Boy, confrontation was not a dirty word in the 60's and early 70's. It was a badge of courage!