John Roberts is NOT gay - he is a probable "RoyCohn"

[IndyOp]

I am following Karenina's lead (link below):

John Roberts is NOT 'gay.' My friends Brian and Mark are gay and they are wonderful, decent, honest people whose sex lives are their own private business. I am regularly offended that people who would not gossip about the sex lives of heterosexual friends feel free to do so when the person in question is gay or lesbian.

John Roberts is not 'gay.' The issue regarding Roberts & Rove & Mehlmann & Armstrong Williams is NOT sexuality -- it is a sick blend of hypocrisy, abuse of power, and lies, lies, lies.

I propose that from now on we refer to these slimeballs as RoyCohns.

Roy Cohn was a sexual predator who was willing to destroy lives to get his jollies with whomever he wanted and keep his secret. So the term RoyCohn says everything we want to say about Rove, Mehlman (perhaps even *) -- they are all RoyCohns.

I would like to promote this term - it could help us communicate so much more effectively about why we object to this man (and others like him) without offending DUers who are gay or lesbian; without providing steam for lurkers who think gay bashing is acceptable.

Most gays and lesbians I know have had to build up a whole lot of courage to be who they are -- we, the progressives -- need people of courage who can see and speak truth. The reason we despise the RoyCohns of this world is because they are too cowardly to do what healthy gays and lesbians manage to do: live an honest life. If we beat up on the RoyCohns by calling them 'gay' we are beating up on the wrong crowd. Some threads around here are full of gay bashing statements - whether that is the intent of the posters or not. Think about it please:

Rove is a RoyCohn. Mehlman is a RoyCohn. Williams is a RoyCohn.
Gannon is a RoyCohn. Roberts is a probable RoyCohn.

RoyCohn - hypocrisy, using/abusing others, lies, lies, lies.

I am following Karenina's lead:
<http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4803569#4804630>

[Fovea]

1. right on!

And the RC's use shame and blackmail as tools of control.

[IndyOp]

5. Excellent - that's it --

To the extent that anyone uses the term 'gay' to shame the RoyCohn's we are just adding to the RC's need to hide and to their likelihood of abusing others to keep their secrets. If we can lessen the shame we lessen the power they have to blackmail.

[Imagine My Surprise]

2. Interesting point...

just today, I referred to someone I know as a "self-loathing, RoyCohn-type". I hope we can promote this new phrase.

[MuseRider]

3. Roy Cohn

perfect. I have a hard time thinking of anyone more despicable than him. A lot of people tie him but he was bottom of the barrel.

[NYCGirl]

4. What about J. Edgar Hoover? He had the goods on EVERYONE, and

would blackmail them in a moment if he wanted to, so everyone was afraid of outing him.

[IndyOp]

7. Good point -

RoyCohn is such a powerful term to me because of Kushner's "Angels in America." I just remember watching the nurse who was caring for Cohn seeing his HUGE stash of drugs (Cohn blackmailed someone from the FDA to get them). The nurse's friend was dying. Cohn could never have lived long enough to take all those pills - but he had have complete control, he had to hoard them all - while people who cared for him were watching loved ones sicken and die. That is a supreme abuse of power.

[crispini]

6. You know, I know a lot of gay people,

some of whom are still closeted at work, or in certain circles, or to their family. I believe it's their own decision where and when to tell people. The truth is that there is still a lot of prejudice in certain circles about being gay. I don't think any less of these people for choosing to stay in the closet at work or to their family. That is their business.

I guess what I'm saying is that you seem to be equating being closeted with being a "Roy Cohn" and I disagree with you on that point.

[IndyOp]

9. I did not mean to equate not revealing one's sexuality to all

as being a RoyCohn. That is part of what I would like to get away from. Somehow, many people think it is okay to ridicule Roberts/Mehlman/Williams/Gannon for not being out in the open about their sexuality.

Not being 'out of the closet' is not the problem -- the problem is hypocrisy (attacking others who are gay); abuse of power (using other people to hide the truth); lies (being private about one's sexuality is not a lie).

I hope I was able to express that a bit more clearly.

[crispini]

11. Now that I agree with.

And I think it's a pretty useful term to express that.

[maine_raptor]

10. crispini, I agree

And as one who has been accused of "gay bashing" for posting a thread about this, I gotta say the what a person does or does not do with their personal life (come out or stay in) is that person's decision. They made it based upon the facts of their life as they see it, and unless you can honestly say you have walked in their shoes, you can't judge.

Now as to the question at hand, if Roberts is gay, then his closeted life was more than likely do to the nature of his work and the circles he choose to dwell in while working his way up his career ladder.

As to "Roy Cohen", we all know that he was a sleazy, amoral, and throughly disgusting waste of human flesh. That was due to his other life choices, not just because he decided to remain "in the closet".

[IndyOp]

13. Exactly ---

'As to "Roy Cohen", we all know that he was a sleazy, amoral, and throughly disgusting waste of human flesh.'

I think many people around here are using the term 'gay' totally inappropriately when trying to express their disgust with 'sleazy, amoral, and throughly disgusting wastes of human flesh' such as:

Karl Rove - lying, cheating, abusive, power-glutted slimeball

Ken Mehlman - head of GOP - 'nough said

Armstrong Williams - paid ass-kisser whose infomercials on behalf of "No Child Left Behind" have hurt our educational system

John Roberts - woman-hating; gerrymandering; corporate ass-kisser who isn't very sure that Congress should have as much power as it has now


When people use the term 'gay' to stand for 'sleazy, amoral, and throughly disgusting wastes of human flesh' -- this is gay-bashing, whether it is intended to be so or not.

[goclark]

17. Maybe I misunderstood but I thought

the poster meant that a RoyCohn is someone that is mean spirited and puts down, by their deeds and abuse of POWER, people that are gay.

I didn't think that the poster was saying that people don't have the right to make their own decisions.

Let's just suppose that Roberts is gay, just suppose.

Anyone that is all buddy buddy with Ken Starr,and adored the past vicious Chief Justice and adores GWB, is doing so by bashing those that may be gay, women that want the right to choose etc.

If he is hiding behind all that NeoCon and Christian Right stuff then he is living a lie! The message that he is sending to his base is that he is somehow "better" than a gay person. He is sending his base a message that he has "a darling wife and two adopted children and every MAN should do the same."

He is mean spirited and LIES, IMO, he should be called a RoyCohn.

[newsguyatl]

8. it's much simpler than what you say

many of these rightwing "gay" men are actually just rightwing homosexuals.

you're right, they're not "gay" -- but they are indeed homosexual... self-loathing, many times closeted, bigotted homosexuals.

there's also a whole generation of men (many now very old) who're married, with grandchildren, who are homosexual.. who never "came out" or "lived the lifestyle" -- but their sexual preferences are indeed there, unbeknownst to their family and friends...

it's all really fascinating actually.

[IndyOp]

12. If they live their lives without hurting others --

fine, then they aren't RoyCohns. If they do use/abuse others for sexual gratification or use/abuse others to hide their deeds, then they qualify as the aforementioned slimeballs.

IMO, the RoyCohns have a whole lot in common with heterosexual men who 'use' family members or children for sexual gratification - they are sexual predators. I don't think that this is the same thing as a rightwing homosexual who occasionally goes to a 'private men's dining club' and has a tryst with another consenting adult (self-loathing or not).

I don't have a carefully thought out thesis to present here - just some ideas. I just want to find some way to discuss the RoyCohn types without damning gay men by association.

Edit: Clarification - to remove a completely unintended 'not'

[nvliberal]

14. Gee, we have a lot of assumptions here.

I suppose anybody who has never married or who has married late in life MUST be gay.

That's 1950s thinking, not 21st century thinking, to assume anybody who marries and marries reasonably young is certifiably heterosexual.

And it's total poppycock.

If you want to condemn Roberts, fine, but don't use a dead closeted gay man to make your points.

[IndyOp]

18. I don't understand your response --

> I suppose anybody who has never married or who has married late in life MUST be gay.

I don't suppose that at all. I know waaaay too many people who avoid marriage because they don't want to replicate their unhappy family of origin. Also know a bunch of academics who are so consumed by their mental life that they cannot be distracted by... well... people.

> That's 1950s thinking, not 21st century thinking, to assume anybody who marries and marries reasonably young is certifiably heterosexual.

I would never make such an assumption. Apparently, one of the men who worked within the APA to remove the label 'mental illness' from those who are homosexual had a long, apparently successful marriage. After his wife died, his children and grandchildren learned that he had male lovers.

> If you want to condemn Roberts, fine, but don't use a dead closeted gay man to make your points.

I don't care that Cohn was closeted. I care that Cohn was an abusive power-hungry sleazeball who hurt people who got in his way -- just like Rove, Mehlmann, Williams, and possibly Roberts.

I apologize for 'using' a dead person -- but, then again, I'd use him if he were alive to make the point that people who want to rage against these GOP hacks for being abusive slimeballs need to stop using the term 'gay' to express their disdain.

I do get your point if what you are saying is that using the name of a gay man to express disdain about aforemention slimeballs is as inappropriate as just labeling them 'gay'. Isn't it a step in the right direction?

[Lars39]

15. Ernst Rohm comes to mind:

http://www.q.co.za/2001/2002/06/05-pastout.html
<snip>
Unlike others in the Nazi Party, Rohm was openly homosexual, admitting to associates that he was "far from unhappy" about his sexual orientation. He frequented gay bars, belonged to a homosexual organization called the League for Human Rights, and publicly advocated the repeal of Paragraph 175. An anonymous 1932 article called "National Socialism and Inversion" has been credited to Rohm's influence (or even authorship); the article stated that if Nazi Party members performed their official duties well, they were entitled to private lives of "creative eroticism" and "loving homosexual relationship(s)."

Rohm established a kind of gay network within the S.A., assigning prominent posts to gay friends and lovers. Among Rohm's "sweethearts" was Edmund Heines, whom Rohm appointed first as his deputy and later as leader of the Munich branch of the S.A. Another of Rohm's favorites was Karl Ernst, who was nicknamed "Frau Rohrbein" for his intimate friendship with Paul Rohrbein, Berlin's S.A. commander. After meeting Rohm, Ernst had a meteoric rise from a leadership position in the S.A. to a seat in the Reichstag, Germany's legislative body....

[bobbieinok]

22. the homosexuality was known to Hitler, but H needed to get rid of Roehm

Roehm wanted the SA, the Nazi street-fighters, to replace the German military

H knew he needed the military and no longer needed Roehm and his SA...so in 1934 he ordered the Night of the Long Knives in which Roehm and other actual and potential liabilities were eliminated....H expressed horror at the homosexuality that had been 'discovered'; it 'had to be eliminated for the good of the party and the nation'

Leni Riefenstahl's Triumph des Willens documented the Nuremberg party rally after the Night of the Long Knives.....'now problems were taken care of and Germany could march united toward its destiny'

[Lars39]

24. Yes, their usefulness had ended in Hitler's eyes.

What made me think of Roehm was Gannon. And remember Scalia's comments about orgies? It's like we get little hints of things...I'm thinking the upper power echelon has their own group, with bush as a member to keep him occupied. Just my musings.

[xchrom]

16. i really appreciate the effort

and have often wondered -- in the absence of a smoking gun -- why so many people want to saddle gay folk with the likes of rove.

i still don't know why -- until smoking gun is in hand, with roy kohn we had several in hand -- these people can't be straight?

i don't want them for gay folk -- that's for damn sure.

[IndyOp]

19. I hear you...

I would much prefer to see 'RoyCohn' being used to label these slugs as opposed to seeing 'gay' but am coming to the conclusion that any reference to their sexuality whatsoever almost totally misses the point that their key character trait is 'power abusing sleazeball' and that is what they should be called.

My only reason for clinging to the RoyCohn term at this point is to express my disgust for gays who write legislation, preach principles, or take actions that hurt gays. That applies to Williams and Rove, but not Roberts (as far as I know Roberts has not done anything to hurt gays).

On edit: The piece of information that made me think that Rove probably is gay was an AAR interview with a young male journalist who said that Rove checked him out thoroughly - made a pass at him. The journalist said that the had worked at gay bars when he was younger and knew when men were checking him out. He didn't make a big, sensationalistic deal out of it, just sounded confident.

[UTUSN]

20. Didja Know Dick MORRIS Is First Cousins to COHN *and* Jules FEIFFER? n/t

[POAS]

21. While I agree with the reasons

for using a substitute label like "RoyCohn" for the Mehlman and Rove types it will never fly in the real world.

Among the politically aware Roy Cohn is a well known name. To the majority of people it will mean nothing.

Example, just yesterday I told three people at work who are moderately aware of politics and issues that Rove was going to be in charge of NO reconstruction and only one knew who he is. If you use "RoyCohn" as a slur it will just be meaningless without a three minute explanation to most folk.

[KayLaw]

23. Frightening!

I didn't know who this person was so I did a Google search. This link impressed me: http://www.rotten.com/library/bio/misc/roy-cohn/

The comment about looking in the face of real evil. . shudder. . .it's not that hard to see.

[HuskerDU]

25. I am having a hard time placing the name RoyCohn.

Was he Joe McCarthy's lawyer or something. I know I should know the name, but I don't!

[kestrel91316]

26. I missed out somewhere. Somebody please clue me in as to why

we think Roberts might be gay...........(eagerly awaiting juicy tidbits of gossip, lol).

[maine_raptor]

27. See this thread

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=4803569&mesg_id=4803569