Dukakis says Dean isn't the next Dukakis

[boxster]

Some subject lines just write themselves.

http://www.newyorker.com/talk/content/?031013ta_talk_mayer

Dean was among those who declined to endorse Dukakis’s Presidential bid when it mattered most, back in the early spring of 1988, and the reason, Dukakis said, was that Dean, who was then lieutenant governor of Vermont, "thought I was too liberal for him."

"Hell no, it doesn’t bother me," Dukakis said, with a touch of forced jollity, when he was asked about the irony of this. "But no one then thought of Howard Dean as a liberal. He was a moderate Democrat. I’m a progressive Democrat."

For the record, Dukakis is supporting Kerry, his former Lt. Governor.

And a funny line from Kerry:

But if Howard Dean is no Michael Dukakis, John Kerry is apparently not anxious to be seen as one, either. Last year, almost as soon as he announced his intention to run for the White House, Kerry made one thing clear. "I am not Michael Dukakis," he said, "and Michael Dukakis is not me, and the first person who would tell you that is Michael Dukakis."

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

1. Dean is a conservative, not a liberal

but everyone already knows that! Clark is a liberal, and he's more electable than Dean :)

[Selwynn]

4. Clark is no more liberal

And I'd strongly challenge you to prove otherwise.

[Evanstondem]

6. Dean's positions are thoughtful, not politically convenient

Dean's positions are based on what he believes is right rather than convenient political labels. Some of his views, such as favoring balancing the budget, might be "conservative" to some, while other views fit the "liberal" label better than the positions of other Dem candidates. The latter category includes his early opposition to the war on Iraq, and his early opposition to the No Child Left Behind act, and his early support of civil unions.

[shance]

16. Excellent points

Thanks.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

17. That's what all politicians say

"Dean's positions are based on what he believes is right rather than convenient political labels."

Of course they are! :)

[Evanstondem]

34. But Dean can point to specific positions to back this up

If you have specific facts to back up your POV, why not post them. Otherwise go hang out in Politics & Campaigns with the other bad-mouthers.

[sangh0]

35. Lemme guess? Dean is "against crime"

and I bet he has "specific positions" which show that he's against crime because it's the right thing to do, and not because it's politically wise to do so.

[Evanstondem]

38. See post #6, wise guy

Oh yeah, let's add his creation of a health care and early childhood education plans in Vermont that cover far more people & kids than the plans in most if not all other states.

Dean backs up what he says with actions.

Now please tell me what's good about the candidate that you support.

[CMT]

14. how is Dean a conservative?

look at his overall record it is very similar to that of Bill Clinton--moderate on some things but profoundly liberal on others. And how is Clark a liberal? what he is proposing is very similar to Dean. I think both Dean and Clark are not progressives in the Kucinich mode and probably more or less Clinton Democrats.

[sangh0]

36. How Dean is conservative, and Clinton is not

Balanced Budget Amendment
Gun control
Medicare
Welfare (Clinton never said low self-esteem was the cause for being on welfare)

[boxster]

21. I don't think the conservative label will ever stick to Dean,

considering the civil unions bill.

Moderate? Yes. Maybe even a little left of moderate.

Conservative? Not likely.

[Eloriel]

29. He's not a conservative in MY book, except fiscally

But he's not a liberal either -- he's a centrist. Some of his postions are conservative (fiscal sanity, for one), and some are liberal (pro-Choice, civil unions), and some are just right in the middle (aww, leave the gun laws right where they are unless indiv. states need something different).

Eloriel

[sangh0]

37. Dean is very conservative

1) Dean isn't just for balanced budgets; He has also supported a Balanced Budget Amendment to the Constitution - a wingnut idea, not "fiscal sanity".

2) Dean's position on gun control is right out of the Freeper handbook. It's opposed to Fed laws like the Brady Bill, which was popular with real moderates. Only conservatives liike Dean opposed it.

3) Medicare - even the moderates didn't want to cut Medicare, but Dean did.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

40. What's A Fiscal Conservative

going to do for the some fifteen percent of our fellow Americans, most of whom are children, that live below the povery line?

[gully]

42. Bull...

Clark coincidentally or not, shares Deans position on almost every issue.

[Selwynn]

2. Did he mean it as a compliment or an insult?

:D

[blm]

3. Dukakis agreed with Kerry. He says Kerry will fight back

and those who think he won't and are confusing the two of them are fooling themselves.

On policy, however, Kerry and Dukakis are both progressive Dems who believe in fiscal responsibility.

[cavebat2000]

7. Uh

Pardon me but is there a point and any real evidence other than your opinion to say Clark is more electable than dean? Thats unfounded nonsence. Every one of the democratic candidates are electable. Dont undermine any democratic candidate like that. Thats the kind of stuff the republicans want to see... great division. If you want to start saying things like that you might as well join them.

[blm]

33. Did you mean to reply to another post?

Because this one doesn't relate to my post.

No problem, happens to all of us at one time or another. ;)

[charlie]

12. Hell no, Kerry's no Dukakis

Dukakis was a short droning punching bag. Worst campaigner ever. Ever. Ever. Ever. Ever. Ever.

[TheDonkey]

5. Dean = Conservative

so even if he is electable... do we want him elected? I know I'm tired of Dems who seem to want to be rethuglicans.

[w4rma]

8. Dean = passionate Centrist

The passionate centrist

NEW YORK -

At the end of summer and onset of fall, pundits are gearing up for the Democratic presidential primaries. Recently, columnists have churned out a slew of articles profiling, criticizing and praising the candidates. Rating the candidates, writers have given the health insurance gold medal to Kerry, the centrist medal to Lieberman and the leftist medal to Dean.

Absent from all this politicking, however, is discussion on the Democratic strategy. Aside from TIME magazine's "How to Build a Better Democrat," no columnist has provided a comprehensive or innovative view of the identity Democrats need to assume in the coming election.

It seems each party is having an identity crisis. George Will, the conservative columnist for the Washington Post, stated, "Foreign and domestic developments constitute an identity crisis of conservatism, which is being recast - and perhaps rendered incoherent." In an effort to broaden their image, Republicans created an unassailable facade of "compassion," claiming to be "for" all those typically overlooked by the system: the elderly, minorities, the poor.

A cue for Democrats: To broaden your image, embrace the idea of passionate centrism. A 1997 USA Today story quoted then Governor of Vermont Howard Dean as calling himself a "passionate centrist." A cursory look at his governorship proves this to be true. And so, Dean's success, both as a governor (he's won five consecutive elections) and a presidential candidate, is based on impassioned moderation.
…
http://www.michigandaily.com/vnews/display.v/ART/2003/08/04/3f2de34c3b301
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=41955

Extremely massive information dump on Gov. Howard Dean, M.D. (v2.0)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=41214

[Selwynn]

18. Also known as, a Republican

[gully]

41. Far from it!!!

Pathetic.

[Ripley]

9. Riiiight...so many conservatives are for civil unions.

And want religion taken out of politics. And were against this pre-imptive war.

You really should get your facts straight.

[Evanstondem]

10. Please Define "Conservative"

Does a "conservative" hold positions such as those I note above, and is a "conservative" willing to speak out for his views and against the President's without waiting to see where the polling trends are headed?

In your opinion, which electable Dem candidate is not "conservative"?

[TheDonkey]

20. Being anti Gulf War 2 does not make you liberal

Dean was a long shot and spoke out against the war. This got him airtime and a base he couls use (I was once part of the Dean crew!).

But what makes you conservative is saying Dukakis is too liberal (which he wasn't). It is clear that as Governor Dean was very conservative and made enemies with enviromentalists and liberal dems. He was actively courting conservatives and republicans and that is a shame. He's very honest, he say's he isn't liberal.

I say that's a problem. Again do we want the leader of the Dem party that has previously critiziced liberal leaders and admits he is conservative.

I don't know about you but I want change.

[Evanstondem]

39. No, but it's a start

Not being for Dukakis doesn't make you a conservative. I wasn't for Dukakis in the 1988 primaries because I thought he was too liberal and clinical. That doesn't make me a conservative, and it didn't and doesn't make Dean a conservative.

Any of the 2004 Dem presidential candidates are far preferable to Bush. In my opinion, not all of them can get elected, and none of them represent my political views as well as Dean. I don't want another Dem presidential candidate that the Dems can label as a pandering liberal.

[Freddie Stubbs]

13. Dean = lots of support from DUers and Democrats

But these people must be conservatives.

[Gringo]

15. Not to mention Martin Sheen and Rob Reiner

who have both endorsed his campaign. Those two Hollywood right-wingers are trying to pull the wool over our eyes, right?

[Ripley]

19. And Robin Williams and Geanine Garafolo (sp?), too.

Well, what I see is that some people believe you must be either a round peg who fits into a round hole, or a square peg who fits into a square hole.

If we Dean supporters happen to be trapezoidals and don't want to fit into any hole, we must be conservatives undercover. :eyes:

[TheDonkey]

22. No, some genuinely like Dean...

others are just confused and don't want to look further into his past.

I was once a big Dean supporter, I've given money to his campaign! But I began to read about his history as governor and I saw the trends of rightwing governance and a hot temper that just won't mix with what I want in a president (and what I feel we all want).

I'm not hear to say Dean is evil, cause he is not, but he is conservative. That's a fact.

[Ripley]

23. Hahahahah!

You guys are so easy to spot. What was your last screen name? You keep using the same worn out lines.

[TheDonkey]

26. Wow

If you'd like to search my name in the engine you'll find my posts. Many of them very excited for Dean. I only began to back away this summer when I learned more about him.

But if you'd like to think that I'm somone? One of the "guys" that's fine. :rolleyes:

[dsc]

24. Please give me the name of one statewide or national Republican

who isn't gay or lesbian who supports civil unions.

[TheDonkey]

28. ahem

If you remember the Vermont SC mandated that not having civil unions was unconstituional. Do you realize how bad it would have been for Dean to go against the VSC an completely alienate the democratic base of the state when he already made fools of them. So yes he signed the bill, behind closed doors almost ashamed of it at the time.

Now he has come full circle and is quite proud of the event (I am too) but I must remember civil unions was never part of his platform or issue he fought for, it was thrust upon him as law.

oh' and Arnold Shwartznegger (maybe) of the top of my head.

[charlie]

30. Chafee

"Likewise, U.S. Sen. Lincoln Chafee, an Episcopalian, said he supports civil unions, but not marriage for gays and lesbians, saying the country is not ready to call it by that name."

http://www.projo.com/news/content/projo_20030806_gay6.9596e.html
(Reg req'd, unfortunately)

Natch, he hasn't done anything about it, but he does give it lip service.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

25. not conservatives, deluded

It seems a lot of DUers have a VERY short memory, possibly since most of the people here are rather young, and DUers also seem to be a sucker for a well written stump speech.

How else could a conservative pro-war (except for Republican wars) governor from a small liberal state get to be the great white hope for liberals?

[w4rma]

27. Charley Reese: (Dean is) A Good-Tempered Man

…
The general is just an insurance policy for the Establishment. Yes, Virginia, there is an Establishment, and the game it has played all of my life is to make sure that both the Democratic nominee and the Republican nominee were controllable by the Establishment. What the Establishment fears most is an independent outsider.

The Establishment isn't concerned with conservatives or liberals, with the left or with the right. These are all just red herrings to keep the populace distracted. Politics in our country is about money and power. End of story. Look at recent history. The Establishment came down with all its power on Barry Goldwater, an independent thinker of the right, and on George McGovern, an independent thinker of the left. What the Establishment feared about both men was that it wouldn't be able to manipulate and control them.

The Establishment is scared to death of Howard Dean. The more progress he makes, the more you will see the Establishment press and think tanks attack him. The Establishment wants a choice between Wesley Clark and George Bush that would in effect be between tweedledee and tweedledum. Clark isn't even sure if he's a Democrat, much less what he believes, if anything. He just wants to be emperor. And the Establishment got him into the race simply because it was afraid Dean would beat Dick Gephardt, John Kerry, Bob Graham and John Edwards.

Old J.P. Morgan maneuvered Teddy Roosevelt into the vice-presidency, which, at the time, was the death of a political career. When Morgan was told that President McKinley had been assassinated and Roosevelt was the new president, Morgan threw up right in the Waldorf Astoria's dining room.

I predict that if Howard Dean wins the nomination, Establishment types will be throwing up all around the Ivy League.
http://reese.king-online.com/Reese_20031008/index.php
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=54583

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

31. Howard Dean is the establishment

and always has been. His campaign is scary to some Democratic party insiders, because Dean is a weak candidate to go against Bush.

Dean is SURE he's a Democrat - a "socially liberal, fiscally conservative" Democrat - a pro-war Democrat (except for this one) - a pro-NAFTA Democrat, a pro-corporate Democrat, but a Democrat nonetheless.

[Gringo]

11. The whole "Dean's a Liberal - Clark's a Conservative" debate

is meaningless. The differences between the 2 are soooo incremental. They are both centrist dems. I've never heard either of them call for freeing Mumia or endorsing Angela Davis' prison reform plans. As far as I know, neither is insisting on the non-private-sector single-payer health system we so desparately need. They both are considerably to the left of the White House squatter, but that's only because he is a protofascist.

I don't think the debate is over left-right. Anyone who tries to paint either of them as anything other than centrist is a liar, IMO. The debate is over who is more electable, and who is more likely to actually be able to effectively IMPLEMENT a progressive agenda when elected. I'm with Dean because he's been consistent with my views since the start of the phony oil war. Clark has yet to convince me one way or the other. I'm certainly listening, though.

[Capn Sunshine]

32. LOL

the difference between the two is one is running on his record as a democrat, the other, on his record as a general.