I feel so angry about the pledge of alliegence and I am a Christian

[DanCa]

Actually I call myself a Jesusian to distance myself from the gop creeps that want to force feed thier brand of christianity down everyone's throat. I truly am utterly sorry and angry by this act of vanity and false iconship as it goes against every teaching of the god I worship.
I really wish I could do something to help but am as powerless as you guys are. No one has the right to force another being how to pray - or not too- as the case may be. And my biggest fear my yet come in play that the gop bastards may declare a church martial law and say you cant worship god unless your a bottom feeding repub.
Anyhow I just had to vent and I wanted to let the people of other faiths, and no faiths that I am with them. If theres something I can do to help please let me know. Please hang in there and tcb.

[Bluebear]

1. I think the pledge is a little over the top anyhow . . .

Now that I think of it, this country is sooooo into symbols and incantations. Do other western nations have similar oaths of allegiance that they have to recite every day?

[StellaBlue]

6. It seems obvious

It's just us trying to compensate for our comparatively short history and comparatively impoverished culture.

[Bluebear]

11. "Yay, us!"

:eyes:

[rockymountaindem]

21. Every country has a national anthem.

La Marseillies is especially nationalistic and violent. Look it up.

The Spanish national anthem, I believe, has no lyrics though.

[Bluebear]

23. Oh yeah I know about the French anthem....

I was just commenting that we seem to need an anthem AND a pledge of allegiance...

[StellaBlue]

42. Yeah

A national anthem and a pledge to a flag are quite different, but serve a similar (often identical) purpose. I wouldn't care if there wasn't a national anthem, either. It can only be divise. You can't sum up nearly 300 million people, represent them all, in one song.

I don't see that there is a point to any of this except to further push our whole 'American exceptionalism' neurosis. Which I take great exception to, pun intended.

[FreedomAngel82]

19. I don't know

I've never really paid attention. Pledges and symbols and all that are nice for special occassions but people here do like to go over the top.
It's almost like an idol and all these rightwing Christians like to have the Ten Commandments all over the place but they forget God gave the commandment to have no other god or idol before him. Oops!

[kentuck]

2. We don't need to get "Under God" out of the Pledge....

We need to get rid of the entire Pledge. It is silly. We don't need public displays of patriotism like that. We need a country that people can love without being propagandized by slogans and nationalism.

[Bluebear]

5. See my post at the same time.

:toast:

[kentuck]

7. Yep...

They will need several of those flags to wrap themselves in this winter, just to keep warm...

[FreedomAngel82]

I think it should be a special occassion thing IF anything at all

Why do we open and close events with the pledge and a prayer? When you overplay it to me it just becomes empty words and everything.

[NaturalHigh]

3. If you don't like it, don't say it.

What's the big deal? Some of us approve of the pledge as it is. If someone doesn't want to say the pledge or doesn't want to say "under God", that's their business too.

[DanCa]

8. Silent meditation would be better

That way people can meditate/pray/whatever/ the flag that they want to. I just feel mandatory prayers are wrong. Oh sorry for my poor grammer my hands are not typing right today.

[NaturalHigh]

10. I'm not for mandatory prayers...

or for making anyone recite the pledge. For everyone who wants to, though, I'm not for making it illegal.

[political_invader]

12. I Agree

You can't force anyone to say the pledge,but to make it illegal is to take the Civil Liberties away from those who want the pledge. Should it be in our public schools thats another question however, IMO there are much more important issues to tackle then that argument. #1 priority should be to get rid of the Patriot Act. #2 Eminent Domain these infringe on us a total government control. #3 Get Rush Limpballs off the radio.
Peace from a BLUE STATE !!

[StellaBlue]

15. DUH

It's COERCIVE.

When was the last time you were anywhere and the pledge was recicted in a non-coercive atmosphere? Like elementary schools.

It's nationalistic propaganda we can do without. Europeans laugh at us for even having such a thing. It's very Nazi.

[NaturalHigh]

25. Isn't it also coercive to ban the pledge?

Again, I say that if you don't want to say the pledge, don't say it. Don't stand if you don't want to. That's your business. For you to tell me that I can't say it, though, is taking away one of my freedoms, and I suspect that you are in the minority in this country who would wish to do so.

[Name removed]

37. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[NaturalHigh]

43. "Are you a freeper?"

Gee, what a compelling argument, and SO original, too. :sarcasm:

I specifically stated that you shouldn't have to say the pledge if you don't want to. How is that coercing your kids into saying it? As for what you stated, I did infer that you were in favor of banning at least any "organized" recitation of the pledge. Did I misinterpret what you wrote?

[FreedomAngel82]

22. I remember when I was in high school

that's what we did. I graduated in 2001 so it wasn't that long ago. At the beginning of a football game the anthem was played and a moment of silence (it used to be a prayer) and then when school started we had a moment of silence and the announcements. During the moment of silence you could pray or do nothing. I think that works out better personally.

[StellaBlue]

38. I think it's still coercive

... this 'moment of silence' BS.

PEOPLE CAN PRAY WHENEVER THEY WANT TO. It does not have to be institutionalized. I just don't get why anyone would want such a thing in a public/taxpayer-funded setting unless they have a theistic agenda to push.

IMHO, by having the 'moment of silence' it makes children feel as if they SHOULD be doing something. But why? Why pray before school starts? Should we pray before work starts everyday? Should we have a moment of silence at 8:30am each morning at work? Didn't they pray that morning over breakfast already, if they are praying types? Why bring the rest of us into your personal prayer/meditative/good vibes thing?

I think I will insist that your kids sit through a 'moment of peace' in which they are instructed to use the time to think about peace and justice. Ostensibly, no one could have a problem with that, right? EVERYONE wants PEACE, DUH, you say. But if we advocated such a thing, the RWers would point the finger and accuse us of trying to infiltrate their kids' minds with hippie/tree-hugger/pink 'peace' propaganda. Even if we said they were not to be forced to actually think about peace, but could think about something else if peace was against their personal philosophy. Do you see my point here?

Anyone?!

What is with all the people who are all rosy-comfy-nostalgic about the pledge, anyway? I just dont. get. it.

BUT you can say the pledge whenever, wherever you want. With whatever words you want to use. Go for it!

[DanCa]

9. self delete dupe

[ThoughtCriminal]

4. Flag Worship is Blasphemy

http://www.alternet.org/story/22268/

[despairing optimist]

13. I survived 13 years of Catholic school, each day of which involved

reciting the Pledge of Allegiance, prayers three times daily and at the beginning of each class in high school (if the teacher was PC, or should that be Religiously Correct?), and mandatory confessions before holy days.

This forced obeisance, occurring at the same time that we students were encouraged to think independently based on facts and to follow our consciences, led to just that. I followed my conscience and decided that thinking independently meant leaving this brainwashing behind.

I remember one brother's sharing with our class that he'd rather teach a room full of dummies because dummies when told to walk into brick walls would follow their orders unquestioningly, whereas smart people might first ask why. The pledge fits right in with dumb things you have to do to get by in such an environment. In people of reason and independent mind, it breeds resentment and defiance rather than allegiance. It runs counter to the wishes of the country's founders, who designed a government to be controlled by and loyal to its citizens rather than the other way around. And the very mindlessness of its recitation belies the sincerity of its intent.

You're right that no one should force others to pray or pledge allegiance, but that doesn't mean that people don't try. Their efforts are doomed, however. For proof I offer our country as it is today, after--what, a century or more?--generations of people reciting words that have become as devoid of meaning to them as the Constitution and Declaration of Independence have to the sad majority of our governmental officials. At a time when appearance is all the reality that most people need, the pledge is empty words mouthed on the heels of broken promises in hopes that no one is alert enough to care, let alone notice.

[DanCa]

18. The worst whipping I got in Catholic school was when i told sister vi

That she was crazy. It was the slang back than and it meant you liked some one. For brides of christ they sure had a mean back hand.
She also had me scrubbing the outside bannister for three hours that day.

Of course that was nothing like the day she found my elton john tape. I had to kneel on rice for and say rosaries for that one.
I am not sure if there's a point to this except I agree.
Oh I'll say something nice thou I did learn how to box at St. Percopius. I was just wondering who I was being taught how to deffend myself from.

[despairing optimist]

27. I called our school's sisters the Sisters of No Mercy

In first grade I was locked in a dark, empty classroom for using my desktop as a drum. I was also made to sit in the wastebasket for talking in class (I could fit in when I was 6 years old). Friends of mine were hung up by the backs of their blazers in the classroom closet for misbehaving. And then, the topper was my being summoned during confirmation rehearsal to the front steps of the church and slapped on both cheeks for talking to two friends whose parents had had the good sense to transfer to public school but were being confirmed with me. And I was a good kid, the nerd everyone made fun of and tried to steal notebooks and homework from.

So, yeah. I pledge allegiance to the flag . . . Is there any other hoop you want me to jump through so I can get you the hell out of my life?

[DanCa]

29. In Bruce Springsteen's autobiography or unofficial autobiography I forget

He said the nuns threw him in waste basket because he couldn't get chords to a certain song right. At least were in good company.
:toast: That's why he became a guitar player and a runaway catholic.

[despairing optimist]

31. Springsteen's a good guy. See, even if you're a lapsed Catholic,

you still have a conscience and a sense of decency, sometimes enough to get angry and do some very good things as he has done. There's good that comes out of Catholic schools--it's the law of unintended consequences!

[LibDemAlways]

30. My husband was victimized for 8 long

miserable years at Catholic school in the 50s and 60s where he was terrorized by a stream of black-robed mean women who threw tennis balls at kids' heads as punishment for wrong answers, poked them with wooden dowels, and threatened them with eternal damnation for squirming in their seats. Today they'd all be sitting in jail charged with child-abuse.

Now once a year the church appeals to parishoners to contribute to the retirement fund for these now elderly "sisters." You can imagine how deep he digs for that one - not.

[despairing optimist]

32. What a horror story. Here's another!

I heard about this one when I was a student in an all-boy Catholic high school that is still all-boy. Anyway, in one of our rival all-boy schools there was one smart-ass kid who answered back to one of the brothers. That brother forced the kid to go to the gym and box him, with boxing gloves, in a boxing ring in front of all his classmates. Now, remember the kid was probably 15 and the brother was at least ten years older. You can imagine what happened and how humiliated that kid was. I don't care what he said or did; teenage boys can be smartasses but how adults deal with them is much more a reflection on the adults than on any kids.

I believe that Catholic schools are the best producers of atheists that this country has. The contradictions between words and deeds are too great for anyone with any intellectual independence and genuine conscience to ignore.

[DanCa]

34. The RC destroyed Cardinal Bernadine of Chicago and I loved that man,

Cardnial Bernie was framed by the church for being involved in a child abuse scandal.The man was too moderate for the church so they had to destroy his character by bringing in Cardinal George. Urgh. I am sorry I don't like that man george but if there was a man fit for sainthood it's Bernadine. The catholics had steak but they wanted hamburger go figure.

[LibDemAlways]

36. When I graduated from college in the mid 70's

public school teaching jobs were scarce and I (reluctantly) accepted a job teaching English at a large, co-ed Catholic high school for a year. The kids were great and most of the faculty were underpaid, overworked "lay" people except for one "brother," who turned out to be a demented nutcase. I was forced to share a classroom with him and asked if I could have some drawer space for my planner, papers, etc. He agreed. The next morning the belongings I had left in the drawer were scattered all over the floor. He walked in, and I commented that I'd like to get my hands on whoever had thrown my stuff around like that. He looked right at me and said "I did it. This is my classroom. You have no right to leave anything here." After that I avoided him like the plague and got the hell out of there as soon as the year ended.

[despairing optimist]

40. Yours was a typical story. I believe it completely. Normal = abnormal

It sounds like my high school except for the coed part. The brothers were eccentric, some agonizing about their closeted sexuality while others sublimated their frustrations into obsessive-compulsive behaviors such as the one you related. We did get educated, but in the dysfunctional environment educated us too. I went off to an Ivy League university, glad to leave behind religion as much as I could. But you never get over the indoctrination. It's firmly implanted like another brain.

[LibDemAlways]

24. Excellent post and damn

if the Catholic church isn't one of the most coercive institutions of all time. Stand. Sit. Kneel. Bow. Shake hands.

I take my elderly parents to church each week and am continually amazed at the sheeplike behavior of people who act in unison on command. The latest bit of nonsense is extending one's arm "Nazi" style to "pray over" any number of people for any number of reasons. I just sit there looking at them like they're all loony as hell.

There still are some independent-minded priests though. One week the pastor dictated that all married couples should stand on cue to "renew" their marriage vows. The visiting priest saying the mass refused to do it explaining that there were probably plenty of widowed and divorced people present and the gesture was insensitive to them. I felt like applauding him. A voice of sanity and reason - one of the few.

On the topic of the pledge, I agree. It's drivel mouthed unthinkingly by the masses who neither know, nor care, what they're saying.

[DanCa]

28. Were are our father flannigans and father mulkahey's from mash

when you need em.

[Az]

14. Powerless?

I don't understand that. You have just as much power as the rest of us. You can raise your voice and make yourself heard just like the right has been doing.

The members of the religious right and championing ideas that frankly are borderline insane. But we don't hear their members sitting around chastizing them for going out on a limb. They fight for what they believe is right. And frankly they are pushing all the decades of advancement back.

Powerless? Only if you choose to be.

[DanCa]

20. I think frustrated/scared/angry and confused are better words.

What I we need are stronger religous left leaders who will be able to stand up to the thugs with a clear cohesive game plan. I have lost one church to the throwbacks allready I dont want to lose two.

[DemonFighterLives]

16. I can take the pledge or leave it

I'm a Christian too and I recited the Under God portion when I was younger and it never hurt me any. It is nationalistic and anyone who doesn't want to recite those 2 words or any of it for that matter should be entitled to do what they want. What are we going to do, kick everyones ass who doesn't say it fervent enough?
I just wish the pukes could quit wasting money and time on such trivial pursuits.
Sorry God! :yourock: :patriot:

[FreedomAngel82]

17. I know how you feel

:hug: I too am Christian and get so frustrated with all of them myself. It's one thing to go out and preach to people but it's the next to step over that boundry lines as these people do and get religion involved in the government and force people to do things their way. Would they like it if the government made them pray to a pagan or Satantic god? I'm sure Pat Robertson and his ilk would be protesting like crazy. *sigh*

[judy from nj]

26. Long ago

I stopped saying the "under god" in the pledge. I am old enough that I can remember when it was added. I always thought it was a sop that congress gave to the church.

[DanCa]

35. I have a hard enough time asking to pray for the president and vp

Fortunately Father Jim took the proper names out and it just says the president and vice president and that they make wise descions for our country. I like the episcopal church. There priest listen to the congregation.

[applegrove]

33. Nothing wrong with a pledge. "Under God" is a fine thing to say.

It is generic. As a agnostic - I wouldn't be offended one bit. Wish this wasn't an issue. More important things on the horizon like War & Hurricanes & all.

[tlsmith1963]

39. In the '70s...

...I had a teacher who had us say the original Pledge (the one that doesn't have "under God" in it). I would guess that she was an Atheist (but she never said if she was). If she were teaching now I'm sure the Fundies & Neocons would be breathing down her neck, but it didn't bother me to say that other pledge. Hey, it was the '70s! I liked it better back then, even with the bad clothes & lousy music.:eyes:

Tammy

[TallahasseeGrannie]

41. I agree with the sentiments

except the anger. I thought the issue had been decided in Federal Court?

I must have missed something in the news?