SUING DIEBOLD

[antineocon1]

I think the first thing we need to beat on this agenda is this BBV. Is there anyway that we can hire a lawyer and sue these companies that are getting ready to rig these elections?

[MGKrebs]

1. I think the Secretaries of State

should be thinking about the lawsuits.

They were duped; sold stuff that doesn't do what they said it would do. Doesn't meet the standards.

[bryant69]

2. This is probably the better way to go

It's trickier for us to complain--we can't prove that teh machines have been used to commit fraud (I'm assuming), only that they could be. And even in those cases, I'm assuming the person perpetuating the fraud would be on the hook, not Diebold (Unless Diebold programmed the machines to commit fraud). But the secretaries of State can sue for false advertising.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[antineocon1]

3. Help

So who are the secretaries of state?

[MGKrebs]

7. In Georgia, it is Cathy Cox.

http://www.sos.state.ga.us/default800.asp

And yes, we do have BBV machines. And several suspicious races last time.

Cox is a Democrat, but has been working hard to stifle any questioning of the machines.

My opinion is that she put her career on the line by buying these things, and now that there are problems, she would look REAL BAD if it turns out that she was sold a bill of goods, so she is in CYA mode.

Nevertheless, with enough pressure, she could salvage some dignity and admit that she was deceived about the machines. The problem then is, it seems that all the parties involved; the certification people, the SoS's, the manufacturers, and the certifiers of the certifiers, are all in bed together.So there will be a lot of resistance.

There apparently have been significant attempts to find a lawyer to take this on, with no results that I know of. However, I would like to pursue approaching a lawyer to prod the SoS regarding their legal obligations. This way, a lawyer might not be scared off with the huge risk and cost of taking this on themselves. They would just be alerting the SoS as to their legal obligations and lay out the info, from the SIAC report for example, showing that the machines do not meet the specifications.

Still a shot in the dark I guess, but hey, we can't just give up.
(I've got a lawyer friend scouting around for some help).

[xxqqqzme]

14. if she is in CYA then she is part of the

problem. The Secs buying N2 diebolds BS should sue for fraud cuz the machines(software) R easily corrupted. They need 2 attack rather than defend.

[ParanoidPat]

13. A complete list of all Secretaries of State and Election Directors.....

.....is available in the Activism / Events forum under this thread,
Black Box Voting TAKE BACK THE VOTE! Tool Kit!

Links to all SoS web sites and full contact information is provided. :evilgrin: (Scroll down and click on the name of your state.)

Let them know how you feel! :kick:

[Eloriel]

16. Heh Heh.

Know any SoS's that think that??

:evilgrin:

Eloriel

[eridani]

25. Speaking of Secretaries of State

Our aim should be to find out where they stand on the issue. If they won't take action or take the problem seriously, we move now to get them out of office. That could be supporting opponents in the primary, the out of office party if they have someone on our side, or Greens or Libertarians if no Dem or Rep candidate will take on the issue.

This has a lot of potential. Most elections for this position are pretty 'blah', but the BBV issue could spice up a campaign quite a bit.

[AP]

4. What would the cause of action be?

Diebold has contracts with the gov't, and third parties don't have many causes of actions as third parties to contracts.

What you really need is for a municpality with a contract with Diebold to sue for breach.

Maybe there's a fale advertising claim?

[AP]

5. Disclosing private information might give someone a cause of action...

...maybe.

[AP]

6. Maybe you could sue your municipality for not counting your vote

properly. But, if you're invoking constitutional rights, you can't really sue Diebold. However, generally, private parties who provide state functions can be sued for consitutional violations, so you might try to sue Diebold.

[BevHarris]

18. There are both product liability and false advertising claims

And I'll help anyone who wants to prove it (except for qui tam -- that type of lawsuit is filed only for reasons of personal gain, and it goes under seal, which actually impedes the public interest. It is critically important that all evidence be in the public domain, for the sake of setting future legislation).

I have documents that will do the job nicely.

I believe the injured party is the county, actually. Even when the state makes the decision, the county is the one that buys the machines -- except maybe in Georgia. I assume they passed the bill along to the counties, but certainly Georgia negotiated the sale and the Georgia RFP clearly shows false claims were made that were material.

By the way, the rollback on HAVA is a good idea, I think. Here's why: Remember Scottxyz's post about running ahead and doing a voting system without a schema? (A set of specifications)

What was missing in HAVA was citizen input and an open debate about what the schema must be. All these machines are just a hodge-podge of different features which, according to the files on the FTP site and the memos, they keep adding to. Thing is, no one set out the specifications in the beginning. No, I'm not talking about the FEC standards, which are about 500 pages long.

I am talking about starting back at square one:

1) How transparent does the system need to be?
2) If, as Lynn Landes opines, Federal law requires us to be able to watch the voting system from start to finish, what should many eyes be allowed to watch?
3) What is proper auditing, and how can it best be implemented?
4) Should we really be integrating voter registration databases with voting databases? If we do, should the same companies be allowed to do both?

Also, we now know that the driving forces behind HAVA were defense contractors and procurement agents trying to set up a profitable revenue stream (meeting Aug. 22 attended by David Allen of Plan Nine). Can we now get the moneygrubbers out and have We, the People decide the specifications?

Thank you for listening.

Bev

[chadm]

8. Rigged elections, in the US?

That just CAN'T BE. I'm sure the jury, not to mention to public, would conclude that it simply can't be. It just doesn't sound right. Maybe that's the resistance we've seen.

Then again, the Catholic sex scandals broke through...

[Timefortruth]

9. I have a secret hope that Larry Flynt,

the smut peddler who cares, will win the election. That would send everyone scrambling to the touch screen machines for an answer damn quick. It won’t happen because our side isn’t as low down as theirs, but I love the thought.

[NoKingGeorge]

11. California - demand an audit.

Who can demand an audit in a recall? If someone demands an audit then it will be shown that those machines do not meet the prerequsites for purchasing them. The manufactuers will be responsible for selling fradulent equipment. Also uncertifiable.

[BevHarris]

19. Larry Flynt's people have been in touch with me since February

They were one of the first out of the gate on this story. (I think Hustler has an article coming out shortly). Flynt has been one of our allies, and I've had exactly the same thought: By running for governor, he's giving himself standing to sue.

Bev

[spotbird]

21. Cool

I guess I'll have to dream that the phantom hackers of my dreams "elect" Gary Colman. We don't want Larry in any trouble.

[ParanoidPat]

10. Yes,

We're looking into forming a 'non profit' organization as a fundraising entity for mounting legal challenges as well as paying for public awareness programs. Most lawyers realize who we're up against and just how deep their pockets are. No one seems willing to take this on 'pro bono', they'd rather stay in business than go bankrupt! {go figure :shrug: ) Just Google the names of the members of Diebold's Board of Directors to get an idea of what I'm talking about. :(

The first step is identifying what the goals of the organization are going to be to determine the proper type of non profit to form. The next step is to get the right people signed on to act as officers and a board of directors. Only then can we get serious about how we're going to raise funds. This will take weeks if not months to accomplish.

IMHO, it's something we have to do if we're going to be successful before the 2004 elections. :)

[BevHarris]

20. I've got some people we need to bring in on this --

but let's get this crazy election out of the way first.

And for anyone in California: Understand that if the Republicans succeed in unseating Gray Davis through a recall, there will be more recalls of Democratic candidates in other states. This is just a pattern of trying to do end-runs around the rules, along with corporate greed (see Greg Palast's latest -- Arnold S. meeting to try and block recovery of funds by the state of California from Enron and the other energy scammers)

[rucky]

12. How About a Civil Class Action in Texas?

300,000 voters - many Republicans. No need to drum up pre-publicity. No need to "win over" any support from public officials not willing to risk their political careers - just a direct mail announcement from a Texas lawfirm.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=479895

[ParanoidPat]

15. Again, consider the costs involved.....

.....without getting a break on the postage as a 'non profit', the cost of postage alone to over 300,000 people affected would be over $100,000! Add to that the cost of printing, stuffing, etc., just notifying that many people gets real expensive real fast. Don't forget that in a situation like a class action you usually send a postage pre-paid mailer for the responses. :(

We need a way to legally solicit donations! :evilgrin:

Setting up fundraisers is the easy part. It's getting the organization off the ground that's the trick. :)

[rucky]

17. For the Lawfirms, it's an industry within itself...

All we have to do as concerned citizens is shop the issue around to a trial lawyer who feels strongly about privacy issues (sees a cash cow in it) - let the lawyers find the victims, do all the footwork and spend the money, and take their pay on the back-end. It is my understanding that's how these things usually work.

[ParanoidPat]

22. It's the "take their pay on the back-end" that's the problem.....

.....just what 'pay' are you talking about? :shrug:
If you go after Diebold for illegally being in possession of voter registration data, (criminally) then perhaps someone will go to jail or the company may be fined. No monetary award will go to the 'victims'.

If you file a civil suit, the first thing the judge will ask is what are the damages? What actual harm can be proven to those who's information was taken and compromised by Diebold?
Zero, zip, zilch, nada. Again, no damages can be proven so the best that you could hope for is an injunction against them to keep them from collecting such data in the future. :(

Not much incentive for any lawyer to take something this big and expensive on.

[Eloriel]

23. Link

There are some interesting points in the opening post of this thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=480384

Eloriel

[RedEagle]

24. Keeping it going

Kick!