Asbestos: Is it recognizable just with a photo?

[The Backlash Cometh]

I've actually seen asbestos when I was younger. They used it on the ceiling of our school cafeteria. I must have eaten lunch every day for three years underneath that health hazard. But that was back when we didn't fully realize the hazard.

Recently, however, my daughter started playing in an indoor soccer facility which has a similar, but not same looking substance on the ceiling. It's not the first time she's been there and years ago I did ask the coach if it was asbestos, but maybe I asked the wrong person. I noticed that since then, the facility has added some cover to most of the ceiling, but the substance is still clinging to the open rafters. It's not uncommon for the soccer balls to hit the rafters and dust particles come down each time that happens.

Now, I live in a Republican county and several business people have told me of commerical property in the area which was selling cheaply because of contamination issues. It doesn't seem to stop the sale of the property, it just affects the price. So, I'm pretty confident that this Republican county is typical and puts business interests before the interests of human health.

So, if I were to post a photo of the residue on the ceiling, can anybody tell me if it is asbestos?

[Lerkfish]

1. not an expert, but...

I think you'd have to have it chemically analyzed rather than a visual inspection.

[poppet]

2. How old is the facility?

I think if it were asbestos it would have to be removed or sealed. I lived in an apartment building that had asbestos insulation in the basement (around the pipes) - the insulation was starting to deteriorate. A tenant asked about it; the basement was shut down immediately and the asbestos was removed. The apartment building was quite old though. It makes sense that the property would sell cheaply because the person who buys it will have to have the asbestos removed or encapsulated in order to use the building. I don't know whether you can tell what it is by just looking at it. My husband and I had some ceiling tile from a home we previously owned tested for asbestos. I think a small persentage of accoustical ceiling tile has asbestos, but ours did not contain any asbestos. Maybe you could ask again about the ceiling at the soccer facility.

[The Backlash Cometh]

7. I'm afraid to ask.

I'd rather get the thing tested. I almost picked up a patch, about a nickel size large, which fell from the ceiling while I was there, but I realized I didn't know where to send it. There was a baby in a stroller a few feet away, but what was more alarming was the white particles that were apparent on the brown wooden benches. That stuff is all over the place in a building where people are breathing heavy.

[populistdriven]

3. There are many type of safe spray-applied fireproofing and insulation

that are fibrous. There are many different minerals that are considered 'asbestos'. It is impossible to tell from the naked eye what it is for certain. You need a microscope and a professional to tell you. Asbestos hasn't been used in buildings since 1978-1980. So if the building is newer than that you know it is not.

Only the smallest asbestos particles actually damage your lungs. But you can get cancers from ingestion as well.

The size of particle to make it all the way down into your lungs is around 4 microns. That is so small that if you let one go in a completely still column of air it takes 2-3 hours just to fall from eye-level to the ground.

[The Backlash Cometh]

8. Thanks for the information.

I'm not sure how old it is, but I suspect it was an old warehouse once.

[populistdriven]

10. Then I would refuse to go in there until someone could show me otherwise

also if the building was sold recently there is a VERY GOOD chance it was tested for the sale

[The Backlash Cometh]

15. I already have a reputation of being "different"

This will only prove to everyone that I'm an alarmist too. If I can get some proof, I will respond accordingly. This place has been a soccer facility for at least twenty years. That means that IF it were asbestos, there would be a hot zone of lung damage around here.

I have to take in all evidence, and I apologize for not bringing that one up.

[Ms. Toad]

26. Age is easy to find out.

County property tax records generally include date built. Many counties have their records online - all I had to do to find out when my house was built was to go to the property tax section of my county's website and type in my address. (Property ownership/taxation records are public - so I could have typed any address and gotten the same information on a building I didn't own.)

[populistdriven]

29. correction to the dates of it being banned

The EPA (it was fighting corportate money influences) issued warnings and bans for 10 years before the building industry finally completely gave up on using it. When people complain about the cost of asbestos settlements point out that nearly all manufacturers continued to use it after the initial warnings from the EPA. Its usage dropped significantly after 1980 but it was still in use even though is was partially banned. Finally in 1986 there was a complete and comprehensive ban from the EPA. However materials were still in warehouses and ended up getting installed the following year so the last date usually given is after 1987.

I can't even imagine how this administration would have delayed the EPA if there were a similar situation (mercury anyone?)

[VTMechEngr]

35. Is the roofing damaged?

Asbestos is safe if its still in a contained form. A good example is house siding. As long as it isn't broken and smashed up, the fibers won't get free. Roofing is the same way. I've lived in buildings with asbestos floor tiles, siding, and even one with the white false ceiling tiles. The ceiling tiles were getting poked with pool cues and eventually started falling down (pool room in a dorm) and the university closed that room off for 2 years to fix it.

Now if it has holes or is falling down, I'd ask school officials immediately about it.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

4. Try this.... and a lab would be your best bet... if it won't burn, that

is a pretty good indication....


http://images.google.com/images?q=asbestos&hl=en&btnG=Search+Images

[populistdriven]

6. DO NOT TRY THIS

if it is asbestos you just exposed yourself and many types of fireproofing will not burn for the simple reason that they are fireproofing.

DO NOT TRY TO SAMPLE IT YOURSELF

If you have to handle something you think may be asbestos ( I cant imagine why ) spray it down with water first make sure the area is well ventilated, wear at least a half-mask respirator with asbestos grade filters and a tyvek suit, if you have no suit throw out your clothes afterwards.

[The Backlash Cometh]

9. okay, this was helpful. NOT!

You just managed to scare the hell out of me. The entire building is teeming with this stuff. The soccer balls hit the rafters on a regular basis and there is no ventiliation.

[populistdriven]

12. Sorry but I have had training in this area and you needed the facts

If the building was sold recently then in all likelyhood it was tested

[The Backlash Cometh]

16. I'll check up on that one. Thanks for the tip.

[SoCalDem]

36. Call your local newspaper and ask them to check into it

They are often looking for local "human interest" stories.. What could be more interesting to local parents, than to know if their children are being exposed to asbestos?

and if the building checks out as 'clean", the story could alert other parents to buildings that their kids visit..

If the press starts snooping around, the owners of the place will surely have to provide testing results..

or

scoop up a sample into a baggie (wear gloves)..and take it to the nearest university lab.. maybe they would be interested in testing it for you, or know who could test it :)

[The Backlash Cometh]

40. The Orlando Sentinel doesn't do investigative work in Seminole Cty.

I kid you not. People have sent the OS information about "human interest stories" and the stories get buried. What they do is route the information to their Seminole County branch where it promptly disappears.

Also, this probably is not something the OS is likely to report anyways, because they dumped hazardous materials in the city sewer themselves and created plumes(?) I can't say too much about it because needless to say, there wasn't an indepth article on the subject.

[elehhhhna]

18. Some options: Post a close up pic in the science forum and ASK

what it is. OR:

If that doesn't get a satisfacory answer pick a piece off the floor, baggie it, and go to your local college engineering dept, or a constr. contractor you trust, or an asbestos mitigation contracting co., or better yet a law firm that spec's in asbestos litigation--they'll probably be very glad to find out for you--and go from there.

Ya might also google asbestos images on the internets.

My old homemtown paid a MASSIVE settlement to some members of a gruop who were allowed to meet in a village bldg., which was at the time undergoing asb. removal! Oopsie. Guess the masked laborers, fibrous crap floating in the air, and miles of protective plastic sheeting scared them, huh?

Go to it!

[The Backlash Cometh]

22. The next time she has a game, I think I'm going to collect a piece in

a bag. There's no use taking special precautions to collect it off the benches because it's everywhere.

[elehhhhna]

27. just don't hide it in your nostril and you'll be fine.

if you're over 25, you've probably been exposed to worse.

[LeftyMom]

32. My elementary school had asbestos removal

and class was in session while guys were tearing the ceiling out overhead. :wtf:

[poppet]

14. Just wanted to add

that when my husband and I had our accoustical tile tested, we sent it to a lab. To collect the sample, we did what bushmeat said above: thoroughly soaked the tile with water before cutting a small sample and wore asbestos masks that we got at Lowes. As I said, the tile had no asbestos in it - we just wanted to make sure in case we wanted to take it off the ceiling.

[The Backlash Cometh]

17. What lab did you send it to?

[poppet]

25. It was a lab in California - don't remember the name -

have you tried looking online?

[ohio_liberal]

5. It would be tough to determine

Asbestos was used in so many common things that I would think you'd need an expert to analyze it. It could probably be done within a matter of minutes, though.

[The Backlash Cometh]

11. I need to know where to send a sample to?

[populistdriven]

13. PM me your city info and I can give you a list

[elehhhhna]

19. did y'all know that vermiculite ( in your potting soil) is asbestos?

[populistdriven]

21. actually no

vermiculite is a micaceous mineral and in the past has been contaminated by asbestos because it naturally occurs with other associated minerals including asbestos. There is a thorough screening process now avoid these deposits prior to mining them.

[The Backlash Cometh]

24. You the man.

I yield to your greater knowledge. :-)

[The Backlash Cometh]

23. Now that's scary.

I spent one summer mixing vermiculite into my potting soil with my hands. What is the acceptable exposure rate for that?

[donco6]

20. It doesn't have to be that old.

The gymnasium in our high school was built in the early 70s. Asbestos was used as a sound baffle in the rafters - similar to what you describe. Before I got there, they'd had it encapsulated - sealed with a polymer material. However, balls would sometimes hit the ceiling and break the polymer.

We had to spend about $600,000 to have the gym ceiling abated. There is a federal law that requires public buildings to have an AHERA inspection available for public view. I'd ask the administrator of that site to produce it for you.

[DemonFighterLives]

28. Bushmeat is providing pretty good information

I worked in lead abatement, but the company also had asbestos abatement. The particles that can hurt your are invisible to the naked eye. Of course these particles fall out of loose fibrous insulation. It is impossible to tell by looking, though if it is an older building, it is very possible to have it as sound insulation.
One testing facility was Braun that tested our lead and asbestos samples.
Another warning, the cheap little paper masks that you can buy will not filter out the harmful asbestos particles. Another odd fact is that smoking and working around "stose" is a double whammy. The synergistic effect is worse than the parts. Funny that most ot the asbestos workers smoked like chimneys.

Many people like to still poo-poo the asbestos threat for different reasons. I had an Uncle that used to dump it in plaster mixes, when he was young and he is still kicking at around 80. The thing with asbestos is that some may never be affected and in other cases, it can take up to 20 years to affect the person.
Something I read when checing out Cheney's Asbestos problem, was that second tier people are being affected, such as the wife who was washing hubby's clothes.
:hide:

[The Backlash Cometh]

30. Bushmeat is working hard through PM.

Unbelievable what the Republicans will do for the sake of business. I think I'll start a thread on the subject.

[DemonFighterLives]

34. Here is the one from Braun

http://www.centerforhealthyhousing.org/html/braun_intertec_corporation.html

Price list:

Samples
*Price
Standard Turnaround
*Price 24-hour Turnaround
Reporting Limit

Dust wipe (single)

$30.00
10 days
$60.00
5 µg


Soil

$30.00
10 days
$60.00
2 ppm


Paint Chip

$30.00
10 days
$60.00
0.005%


Water

$22.99
10 days
$44.00
0.3 µg/L



*Price for testing with no supplies or shipping included. Please contact the laboratory for other pricing options.
------
I know Braun is in other locations too, but don't know about your area. You may be able to swipe the benches- wipe I mean
I would now be surprised if you find it. The friable nature would suggest it, also when you asked someone tried to cover it up.

[The Backlash Cometh]

37. I won't have to wait long before a fresh chunk falls down.

You know, this could really be funny if it weren't so sad.

[DemonFighterLives]

39. It is sad

I've got a neighbor removing asbestos containing siding who has a kind of "what me worry" attitude. I'm sure my exposure has increased alot since his project started. A guy I work with who has had thirty some years in construction had asbestos pipe insulation laying around on a job and the good clients had babies and all. He was removing the insulation to allow more heat out of the pipes to heat the basement room. :dunce: I told him he could do it while I wasn't around. He should know better, but he hasn't dropped yet, so it is mostly an overblown joke to him.

[Berserker]

31. Here is a place to start

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Asbestos+testing+labs&btnG=Google+Search

You will of course want to find a lab in your area and I am sure there will be one. But If you can not find one call your local flat roofing company they will be able to help you find one. They need to have roofing materials tested before they tear the old roof off. Many roofing products used to contain asbestos just 20 years ago and must be tested.

[Whoa_Nelly]

33. Am thinking you could contact your city or county

Building & Safety Division. Inspection Services there would probably be able to direct you to accessing the info you seek. Any time a building is erected/upgraded/altered, a permit for that occurance and a city/county inspection is mandatory.

Also, it is public record as to any updates/upgrades/changes on/in buildings for public use.

[The Backlash Cometh]

38. They can't help me.

These organization in my area will only act on a matter if it's politically expedient for them to do so. Do you think that the FBI's pattern of covering up the tracks of quasi-allies is something new in the American landscape?

All politics are local.

[Whoa_Nelly]

41. Well, that's a drag..and illegal

However, the info is public,and you can request it.