Vietnam: On the Frontlines

[H2O Man]

DUers who have the History Channel may be interested in watching the programs on now (early afternoon on Sunday) regarding the Vietnam War. Right now, they are covering the Tet Offensive. It's tough to watch; it's tougher to realize how little the people in this administration who avoided service then, have failed to learn.

[SeattleGirl]

1. I've seen this, plus several others

One of the most powerful ones is about the Vietnam Memorial. If that comes on again, check it out.

[H2O Man]

3. Thanks.

I have not seen the one about the Memorial. I look forward to having the opportunity to.

I taped these years ago. They are among the very best shows the History Channel has provided its viewers with. As I watch them again, it reminds me of how, although I knew from early on the war was wrong, that the American soldiers were not "bad guys."

[shraby]

2. H2O, have any thoughts on the status of the

Plame investigation?

[H2O Man]

5. I am hoping that

with Miller ready to fold (or possibly already folded), the investigation has come to an end. I think that it is possible that Fitzgerald will end that part of the process, and begin to issue some indictments. Will we see them in October? It's possible. I think the jurors have a fairly clear idea what has occured.

When the first round of indictments are issued, it is important to keep in mind that they can be intended, in part, to cause certain targets to fold like Judith. The first round will most likely not be the last.

[shraby]

22. Thank you. My guess is by the time we

learned Judith Miller was negotiating, the negotiations were already completed and she's ready to testify. Shouldn't be long now.

By the way, I remember the Nam war..I was living in a town with 250 people and one family lost a son and the other son lost his leg. To me it was totally unnecessary. Fortunately my brother had flat feet.<G>

[TahitiNut]

4. Such programs frustrate me.

It's like the movies. With the possible exception of one movie (Apocalypse Now), none of them capture the (sur)reality of living that Daliesque nightmare. A lot probably has to do with the narrow sensory bandwidth of viewing a rectangular, odor-free, tactile-deprived presentation. Just the presentment itself is so sterile and 'organized' -- and structured -- it seduces the viewer into some delusion that a significant comprehension is conveyed. I'm doubtful that any intellectual assimilation can possibly achieve anything approaching appreciation. Hell, it was tough enough to even partially bridge the gulf of experience between two guys who were there at the same time, each in a different, disconnected and non-Euclidean geometry of 'reality.'

[H2O Man]

6. Good point.

A.N. remains my favorite movie about that war. While I did not go, and can only speculate, it has a haunting, nightmarish quality of disconnected horror.

By the time I got out of high school, American involvement was over. But being the youngest of five siblings, I had the opportunity to know a number of people who were my brothers and sisters ages, who did serve. I had hoped that during the 2004 election, our country could take serious steps towards coming to terms with the war in Vietnam. (Certainly many veterans have.) But it didn't happen.

[onager]

7. The Anderson Platoon

This 1967 documentary is worth looking up. I don't believe it's available on DVD yet.

Filmed in 1966, it follows 6 weeks in the lives of a grunt platoon led by one of the first black graduates of West Point. We see them hacking thru the jungle, dealing with combat death and wounds, and trying (without much success) to enjoy themselves on R&R in Saigon.

The filmmaker, Pierre Schoendoerffer, was an infantry veteran of the French war in Vietnam. Schoendoerffer describes himself as "always on the side of the soldier," and the film contains no obvious political commentary or questioning.

It's really an incredible documentary work, and I'm surprised that it doesn't get more attention.

[H2O Man]

9. Sounds good.

I have a good friend a few miles away who has a large collection of films about the war. I'll ask him if he has that one.

I got to know him well when, in the 1980s, one of my job responsibilities was working with "at risk" kids. Life had dealt a lot of these kids a tough hand, and many of them had become bitter and hostile. I talked to this friend about volunteering, and he was glad to.

He had been wounded by "friendly fire," and was (is) in a wheel chair. Certainly the type of thing that could make a person angry and bitter. But he had moved beyond that, and he was/is a productive member of society, with a unique point of view, as far as the kids he did volunteer work with were concerned.

[Seansky]

8. txs. for the heads up...

[H2O Man]

11. I almost posted this

on your thread about Vietnam. However, I thought it would likely not be seen.

I'm curious what you think about the H.C. shows?

[Seansky]

17. have recorded many, but often forget to check show

schedule. I regret that we have lost so many channels that promote learning and intellectual development. Used to work for one of the MSM and became disgusted at the way the public mind is shaped up by their pursuit of ratings and advertisers. Pursue of knowledge should be a big part of what we want to inherit to the future generations.

[FloridaPat]

10. They learned a lot. They learned not to have a draft because people

who are on the draft list have demonstrations. They learned to keep the press under wraps because you sure don't want the public to learn what is going on. They learned you need to have a reason for the war, unlike Vietnam where I am still waiting to hear why we were there.

[H2O Man]

12. Great points.

You are exactly right!

[leftchick]

13. 50% casualty rate?

all of those wounded and dead. This is so very sad. I can't believe we are doing the same damn thing again. :(

[Brother Buzz]

14. Hmmm, it's equally tough knowing...

there were US soldiers in Vietnam that didn't learn their lesson, either. H20 man, I stumbled upon the following words in the forum section of Sept. 2004 National Geographic that was a follow-up to the previous month's article on Hanoi. The words just jumped out at me and I copied them to study and ponder. Subjugation? This poor guy's understanding of the war cut right to the quick with what is wrong, and the fact that he couldn't acknowledge that we were subjugating the Vietnamese population speaks volumes of the quality of the propaganda he was fed. Furthermore, he can't come to grips with the fact that the Vietnamese population owns the exclusive right to determine if they were being subjugated. He bought the lie. He lives the lie. It was all a lie, as Iraq is, too. Will we ever learn?

Hanoi

Your article states, "Not until 1975...did Vietnam and Hanoi see the end of the war and foreign subjugation." I, and other veterans I knew. did not go to South Vietnam to help subjugate South Vietnamese people. We went there to help protect them from being oppressed by North Vietnam.

KEN ROUGHT
Willamstown. New Jersey

[H2O Man]

15. That's sad.

There are, of course, a wide range of people who were soldiers in Vietnam. A number of them are not able to view their experiences in an objective way. I think the obvious example were the Swift Boat Liars who attacked Kerry.

I have a friend who was wounded in Vietnam. He knew Kerry from way back, and he didn't like him then, and certainly doesn't now. But he actively supported Kerry, because he recognized that Bush was so dangerous.

I think that the inability to be objective results in being in a swiftboat state of mind; it is tragic that their minds were wounded to such a degree that they are unable to help keep today's soldiers from being used in the way they were used.

[Brother Buzz]

18. Swiftboaters being objective? Hoot

Back in 1974-75, my college roomate was a genuine SEAL with three tours in Vietnam, two on fastboats in the Mekong Delta (thirty years later, I learn he must have been saying Swiftboats). It took him three months to open up and speak of his experience to another vet, and they weren't pretty stories. I found his stories corroborated what Kerry was saying for decades, so I knew with good authority that the Swiftboat liars were just that, liars. They were tools being paid to advance the politics of the Bush* adminstration by smearing the opponent, and they did their job well.

Your points are well received and understood. Sadly, thirty years later, the Vietnam war is still an open sore in our nation's psyche, and the opportunity was stolen from us for Kerry to provide some closure. Will we ever learn?

[TahitiNut]

19. Please try to remember that Don Quixote was a HERO.

Yes. We (I and many others) did believe we were supporting South Vietnamese people who desired to remain free from totalitarianism. We knew that there were "other interests." We knew that there was corruption in the South Vietnamese government. We knew that foreign corporate interests were interested in hegemony. There are many allied interests in any such conflict - war makes strange bedfellows. Were we lied to? Of course. Were we misguided? Of course. That does not negate the altruism of someone's motivations. Don Quixote was courageous - not because what he believed was true but because he truly believed it.

The big "learning experience" is that people always think what they're doing is 'right.' People do bad things due to (false) beliefs that make those things appear to be "good." Even on DU, people argue in favor a doing a "bad thing" for "good reasons." (It's the ol' ends justify the means crap.) Capital punishment is the most obvious example.

[Brother Buzz]

21. I don't disagree, but...

(Hey, TahitiNut, there's always a but :)) That was then, and this is now. Will we ever learn? And don't forget, there will always be Sanchos amongst us that will follow blindly. I'm just saying...

Heck, even this dumb draftee fell for the lie, but I was finally told the truth when Rumsfeld informed us that draftees added "no value, no advantage, really, to the United States armed services over any sustained period of time."

[KharmaTrain]

16. The Chickenhawks Ignored This War

All they know is Jane Fonda lost it when John Kerry and Bill Clinton went to Moscow and we insulted the troops.

Many of the followers of this corrupt party...the 25-40 year old angry white male...weren't even born during Vietnam, yet have any concept of what that war was about.

Their chickenhawk leaders did all they could to ignore and avoid the war. These scum went hiding...but started coming out when they found they could make lots of money being shills for the military-industrial complex...and thereby authorities on all things military.

To them, war is a game...remotely controlled...won by the biggest noise that make the biggest noise. They enamored by the technology of killing and know that this way they can never get their hands bloody. They've created a revisionist history where all past wars are obsolete and the tactics and lessons are meaningless in light of their arrogance and ignorance.

[PsN2Wind]

20. Just finished reading "A Bright and Shining Lie"

Change the locale and the principals and you have Iraq. Note my sig line!!