Some people think that folks that aren't "smart" deserve to be Poor?

[JanMichael]

I believe I've seen this sentiment posted, from another type of forum, on DU. Hell occasionally from so-called "Liberals".

Why is this? Why the absolute hatred of other Human Beings that may not be what we collectively deem "intelligent"? You know it's something that nobody likes to talk about but some people don't have the capacity to "make it" in this giant mind fuck economy.

So they deserve to be Homeless or one the edge of becoming Homeless?

They deserve wages that are barely livable?

They deserve substandard Housing?

They don't deserve decent healthcare?

Their children deserve to go to shitty schools?

The concept is absolutely barbaric to me.

You know every time I read that shit I feel a certain urge to smack certain people repeatedly in the face.

On the other hand most people accept this bias but just don't say it outloud.

EDIT: And the Disabled too mutha-fuckers! Like they deserve the same shitty outcomes?????

[Dissent Is Patriotic]

1. Some people don't realize that intellectual snobbery is a

form of prejudice.

[belle]

28. Smart is as smart does. Also, there's such a thing as emotional smarts

If you have no empathy, even if you're a Mensa candidate, you're no better off than if you have a double-digit IQ and no high school diploma.

[cantstandbush]

30. And what say they about the ignorant and stupid rich?

I know several.

[donheld]

2. Then why the hell does Bushie have any of these things

:grr:

[TwilightZone]

3. The operative phrase here is "so-called".

Anyone who believes that isn't a liberal.

I would argue a complete reversal - stupid people don't deserve to be rich!

The entire Bush family is a perfect example.

[nini]

4. Using that logic W would be on skid row

:shrug:

[MADem]

8. Hell, that would be a step up for him! nt

[leftchick]

24. my exact same thought!

and I can think of no one more deserving to starve for a few days on skid row! :grr:

[HysteryDiagnosis]

5. Who has engineered it so that some people "aren't smart"????

http://ed.stanford.edu/suse/news-bureau/displayRecord.php?tablename=notify1&id=210

Darling-Hammond's research shows that minorities twice as likely to have unqualified teachers
50 Years After Desegregation Ruling, Equality Still Elusive

May 20, 2004
Washington Post
By Karin Chenoweth

Anyone who cares about schools and education and the state of democracy in the United States has been thinking about Brown v. Board of Education lately.

Brown, of course, is the legal case that, 50 years ago on May 17, established that democracy cannot survive when different kinds of citizens are treated differently. It was the case in which the Supreme Court ruled that separate treatment inevitably leads to inequality and unfairness.

Too often people discuss Brown as though it only had to do with schools and that it was important mostly to African Americans, with an occasional nod to Latinos and American Indians.

It did, of course, affect schools, and it was enormously important to African Americans, Latinos and American Indians.

But the fact is that African Americans, Latinos and American Indians are still, for the most part, separated into unequal schools. When they are in the same schools, they often are separated into very unequal classrooms.

[NinetySix]

6. I think that type of sentiment typically comes

from the right, specifically from religious Calvinists. Calvin taught a virulent form of predestination theory that claimed that all those bound for Heaven were predestined to arrive in Heaven in spite of any earthly deeds, and those bound for Hell would suffer eternal damnation despite any charitable or beatific earthly acts.

Here's the kicker: the way you could tell the difference was by seeing how much money a person had. If they were wealthy, it was because God was already bestowing their reward upon them as a sign of rewards to come, and if they were impoverished, it was because the punishment had begun, foretelling of the agonies to come in the afterlife.

There's a word for it. Meritocracy. Cynical, isn't it?



edit:sp

[Tace]

12. Jesus Was A Pauper -- And Calvin Was A Pervert

There you have it.

[Tace]

7. Giant Mind Fuck Economy -- You Should Copyright That

[Lars39]

9. I think I saw the repulsive post you're talking about earlier today.

And I had the same urge.

[sweetheart]

10. Then what form of meritocracy do you propose?

Are you suggesting that we have a state wage, and all persons make the
same money? What if someone learns special skills and is able to offer
a very in-demand market skill, why shouldn't they earn more money?

Presuming that one supports a living wage, is not the entire basis of
competetive american economics, that the smart money grows and the
poorly advised money doesn't?

I'm not saying that the principal is applicable to individuals... what
if the world were right side up, and bush was homeless in the gutter
with his other stupid chums cheney, rumsfled, rice, wolfowitz and
the lot of them... would you then feel that stupidity justifiably
wound these evil persons up in poverty?

Is you problem really with moralizing in general?

[JanMichael]

17. So I take they do deserve Poverty?

What do you propose?

[sweetheart]

43. All conditions are transitory

You could have been a millionaire during the dotcom boom and now be in
poverty; these conditions change. And all it means is that your economic
value is low in a supply side economy... no value judgements.

I frankly believe that i deserve the things that come to me, not because
of any "rational" thinking, but because it allows me to be responsible
for my situation. I accept that there are conditions, racism, outsourcing
and bad government that are more at fault for social poverty, but in
my individual case, i am totally responsible... and if i want to
change it, i do change it. It is in this regard, that if i am poor,
i deserve it, as i set the conditions for it to come about.

You can make social excuses for my poverty, but i will not accept them
personally. So "I" deserve poverty if i live in poverty, but nobody
else does, because they are not individuals, and are rather part of
an irresponsible mass.

[RaleighNCDUer]

33. A true meritocracy would believe in a 100% inheritance tax.

Each generation makes its own way, without a kick-start from successful predecessors.

Also, 100% state financed higher education, so the priveledged would not get the good educations and the poor get the county community colleges, if that (not a slam on CCs - they're a valuable step up for a lot of people, but then again, they aren't Harvard).

The test of stupidity would then be, with opportunities leveled, who can't make it. Those people should be allowed decent (national) healthcare and a living wage, at the minimum. Those who can do better, will.

* should be selling shoes in the mall. (Again, not a slam on shoe salesmen - my grandfather built a decent small business from selling shoes. But he wasn't president.)

[nadinbrzezinski]

11. Ok why is Bush incredibly rich then? He is dumb

as a door knob

:sarcasm:

As to the outlook acutally it is a very calvinistic POV... those who will be saved are chosen at birth, and can show it by the fortunes they have... goes back to oh 17th Century America

[Clark2008]

14. I was about to say the same thing!

:hi:

[nadinbrzezinski]

20. Great minds think alike

:o :toast:

[obxhead]

13. and it's completely acceptable for congress to give

themselves a 3%+ "cost of living" raise.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

15. No one deserves to be poor

There are enough resources in the world to feed everyone, for example-its a matter of distribution.

I do think that many people do live with a "poverty of the mind". This has nothing to do with intelligence, but rather with attitude. They either feel they don't deserve better or they feel that they are always in need and will never have enough. The latter group includes the people with a lot of money who think that they always need more.

"Poverty of the mind" is often more dangerous, I think, than having a simple lack of resources, because it can lead to actions that are injurious to the individual or to society in general. You see it in the battered spouse who doesn't believe he/she deserves better; you see it in the greedy corporate CEO who cooks the books, stealing pension funds from thousands and bilking old people out of their life savings.

[KittyWampus]

16. Do they deserve to be called "sheeple", a term DU'ers seem to love?

[JanMichael]

18. I've stopped using that term by the way.

[CrispyQ]

25. I don't define the term sheeple

as people of lesser intelligence, but rather a mind-set that prefers to follow & not question established doctrines or status quo. I know many people who are intelligent but qualify as sheeple. I also know people that are not as bright, but question what they read & hear.

[TwilightZone]

26. I don't think "sheeple" is directed at poor people.

It sure hasn't been in my experience.

Anyone who supports Bush with that distant look of blind admiration we all see on the news is fair game for the term "sheeple", regardless of their economic status.

In fact, around here, it's the SUV-driving, solidly middle-to-upper class soccer moms and dads who seem most adoring of the head idiot. That's who I think of when someone says "sheeple".

[catmandu57]

19. There's no reason for anyone to be poor

Whatever your level of intelligence is. There are plenty of dumb people who have money only by the virtue of having been born to it, you know those people born on third base who think they've hit a triple.
If that sentiment were true, then there would be a hell of an upheaval, and many poor people would suddenly find themselves at the top of the heap.

[despairing optimist]

21. Since our ruling class is filled with folks who aren't that smart,

and who are where they are because of their blood lines, privilege, and wealth rather than their inherent merit, it is in their interest to advance that point of view. It draws attention from their own shortcomings and disempowers the "ill-born" majority, while simultaneously dividing the majority by isolating the poor within it. That's clever but not smart because it's short-term thinking and will eventually blow back onto those promoting it.

[Octafish]

22. If you're not 'connected,' you deserve to be poor.

That's another one the old money like to espound.

BTW: Agree with you 100-percent, JanMichael. Too many phony baloneys these days. They deserve something...

[HysteryDiagnosis]

23. Many peoples' future could be much brighter, much happier, were

the medical community not enslaved to the pharmcos. They for the most part didn't receive more than one hour on nutrition during their schooling... so they in effect lost the greatest chance to become true healers.

www.hriptc.org

www.dhadepot.com

www.orthomed.org

www.lef.org

[SmokingJacket]

27. All human beings deserve to live decently.

I'd rather live in a country in which all people live in a decent-sized space and have enough to eat -- even those "lazy" types who don't want to work, and the dumb people who have too many kids, and the alcoholics who refuse to go into rehab -- than in a country that has a certain percentage of its population living in squalor because they don't "have what it takes."

Anyway, I've known a lot of incredibly intelligent poor people, and know of a lot of unintelligent rich people. In fact, I see very little correlation between income and IQ (though perhaps statiticians claim there is one, and maybe my experience is abnormal).

My own family is full of very bright people living right around the poverty line -- mostly because they're eccentric or have borderline mental health issues.

[CrispyQ]

29. Many rich people got there by

engaging in behavior most of us would find morally repugnant.

[Divernan]

31. Wealth is inherited; intelligence is a genetic crapshoot

And just as in craps, there are statistical probabilities. I know a lot of people from my midwestern high school class who were really not very bright. In fact, thick as boards might be an apt description. They ended up incredibly wealthy because their families owned farm land in the path of urban development and sold it at very good prices. It is unfortunate that some of these people do in fact look down on the poor, and bitterly resent having to pay taxes on their income. These people have jobs/careers which are mediocre, or perhaps own something like auto dealerships or small businesses which make very little profit, but it doesn't matter, because they don't need that income.

Too bad that they can't look at someone struggling to raise a family in this economy and realize that there, but for the luck of which family I was born into, go I.

[bliss_eternal]

32. I've heard this a lot--I don't like it or believe in it either...

There are many people that are successful that aren't 'book smart' but are street smart and have common sense.

There are also those I think of as 'educated idiots.' Those that have educations, but are unkind, lacking in compassion, and have no common sense. They also lack the ability to do anything that they don't have an instruction booklet telling them 'how to.'

But this whole idea that the uneducated 'deserve' poverty--that's a crock as far as I'm concerned...

:eyes:

[leftofthedial]

34. bushturd is proof to the contrary

[blogslut]

35. What is intelligence?

I had a biology teacher blow my mind with that question:

What if we gauged intelligence levels by the ability to adapt to our environment as opposed to manipulating it? Who would be more intelligent? Man or Dolphin?

[earthboundmisfit]

36. And also the assumption that if you're poor you're NOT smart.

I've been through it - as it happens I have a higher than average IQ, but circumstances became such that I lost everything & had to scrape any possible resource for basic food, shelter & medical care for my child & me.
Except for the wonderful people at the food bank here, it's been unbelievable the difference in the way people treat you when it's obvious you're poor. You're treated as if you're stupid even though you're not. Never mind that the clerk with whom you're dealing doesn't know the abbreviation for the state of Oklahoma - YOU'RE the one who's stupid, because you're poor. I've even had medical personnel assume I'm a meth user because I fit a "profile". I will never forget how all this feels. Nor will my child, though I've shielded him from it as best I can so he can have as normal an environment as possible in our situation.
Things are better now - I've been working with a temp-techie place - but we won't be out of the woods till I get hired as a permanent employee. But I will NEVER forget how we've been treated. When I climb out of this pit - and it's hard to climb up, but I'm doing it - I'm going to help others in the same place I'm in now, and I'll always treat them with respect. Losing respect is one of the most hurtful aspects of being destitute - because after a while you lose respect for yourself. And I can't imagine how it must be for the gulf evacuees. They must be treated with not only compassion, but respect as well. Because compassion without respect amounts to pity.
Didn't mean to rant, but thanks for listening! :hug:

[ulysses]

37. I'd like to know

how they're making the determination about who's "smart" and who's not.

[StellaBlue]

38. Yes.

I was in a loooooong relationship with one of them.

Though never called himself a 'liberal' - the HORROR.

Why would anyone WANT there to be social Darwinism?!

:eyes:

StellaBlue slaps herself repeatedly / / / /

[Qibing Zero]

39. It's all about money, nothing more

They want you to believe that the people who succeed in the Great Capitalistic Cycle are better and smarter than the ones who don't.

It's bullshit, plain and simple.

Every last bit of it is about money, and since money is passed on and passed on, it has absouletly nothing to do with an individual's strengths and weaknesses. Hell, it doesn't even work that way in the first place, since it's infinitely easier for a rich white individual to succeed in the system than it is for a poor white individual, let alone for any minority individual. The 'American Dream', especially nowadays, is nothing but your chance to put everything you own into a pot, and then hope luck works your way instead of all of your worth being taken by someone who doesn't really need that extra .01%.

How many ways can one refute social darwinism? No, that's not a good question. The real question is why do people who don't even believe in natural selection equate it to their socialization with others?

[Lecky]

40. Who said all that?

I think it's a complex issue...many people refuse to think of poverty as complex out of ignorance or resentment.

I would think that most Democrats have little contempt for the poor, although most people would agree with me that it takes effort from both the government and the people to battle poverty.

The government alone can do very little about SES factors but they can improve health care and education as well as funding some outreach programs.

What the people want is effective government spending programs that work.

I don't think anyone "deserves" to be poor, but I do think that we as individuals are in charge of our own lives. We should encourage this type of thinking instead of the "victims of society" approach. I still believe this country offers opportunity for everyone but we are far from perfect and will continue to (hopefully) improve.

I think people resent the poor because they feel superior or don't like the idea that people get a "free ride" (welfare) while they have to work for their money. People like to feel entitled and special. I don't necessarily agree with that mentality nor do I think living in poverty off of welfare is getting a "free ride" by any means. Not to mention many people work really damn hard and still can barely get by...we should be fixing this problem instead of giving the rich god damned tax cuts. Anyone who works (as well as those who are unable - the disabled and elderly) should be able to make a living, I firmly believe that, making this a reality is the challenge we all face.

I think Democrats struggle with this issue because we cannot make the other half of the country realize why this is so important. Especially those who already "have theirs", and don't consider poverty a big problem in this country. We live in a very much "I've got mine..." materialistic, competitive society. Since people are inherently selfish (all of us are in our own ways) we should talk about how these types of spending programs benefit us all. We can't just say because it's immoral not to...that argument never works for either side on any issue.

Also, instead of condemning those who don't share our views we should engage in rational discussions. Yes, some people are stubborn and set in their ways and will never open their eyes...but there are also people who respond well to reason :)

[Guaranteed]

41. Pretty funny concept, because I'm a helluva lot smarter than these

Republican dumbfucks are. Guaranteed.

Yet, they're the ones who think stupid people should be poor....



Huh.

Maybe Republicans SHOULD be poor.

[Quakerfriend]

42. I have found that there is no correlation btw. true intelligence and

wealth or poverty. I come from a very funny family. My side: blue bloods, in who's-who dockets, all educated at the top ivy league schools etc.

My husband's side: Extremely poor, grandma still cooks using the oven 50 yards out in the field, and she just got running water and electricity in the 1990s (No lie).

The stereotypes I found most silly are these. The poor seem to think that the wealthy don't know how to work. They think they were given everything. In my family this is just not true. Many made their mark thru a lot of VERY hard work and sacrifice.

Then you have the wealthy who think that the poor are just simply not intelligent at all, and that they don't really want or need more than what they have in life. Of course, this too is utter nonsense.

[NorthernSpy]

44. oh,libertarianish types are forever going on about their "intelligence"...

... and lording it over the rest of us (especially the poor), who are presumably inferior in this respect.

Me, I don't know what makes a person behave that way. Some form of psychological compensation? I don't know. Anyway, it's annoying as hell. Consider the smarter-than-thou crowing as a marker for a whole host of other traits that we definitely don't want on our side.

[liberalitch]

45. While I feel like intelligence should be the open doorway to....

wealth and opportunity.... as opposed to family ties (like chimpy), I feel that the "differently abled" and "under educated" are just as entitiled to the american dream as a rocket scientist.