Buy a prius in January because...

[skids]

Not because gas is expensive. Ok well, that too.

Not because it has low pollutant emissions. Ok, well that too.

Not because years later plug-in mods will finally be affordable. Ok, well that too.

But mainly because the huge new tax credit. It will take a large chunk out of your tax bill, and make you feel that much less guilty for helping to finance BushCo's ongoing travesty of a government:

http://www.workingforchange.com/article.cfm?ItemID=19589

The Prius gets the biggest fuel economy credit of any current model -- $2,400 for this portion of the credit (plus another $750 for the gas guzzler credit discussed below).

Oh, and here's why January.

once a manufacturer has sold 60,000 eligible vehicles, the credit will begin to be phased out for that manufacturer. That's not 60,000 per year, it's a total, and it refers to all models combined.

Disclaimer: this is, of course, subject to any new interperatations as the bill is a bit vague. And who knows, while they are looking to cut money for Katrina reconstruction, they could very well raise taxes (note framing here) on hybrid buyers by removing these provisions.

[ispeculate]

1. whats the sticker price on a new prius and what is the MPG?

[lectrobyte]

3. $22K and up. 51 Highway, 61 City.

[MadHound]

6. Sorry, I think I'll stick with my plan

A Bajaj scooter, gets 100-110 mpg, and only costs $3000. However the next car that we do by is going to be either a diesel(so I can make our own biodiesel) or a hybrid.

[tammywammy]

7. I'm waiting for my Beetle TDI to finish being made right now

Biodiesel is available a 30 min drive from here. :)

[MadHound]

8. Great! We're going to have a biodiesel refinery

Opening fifteen miles away from my home. I still think I might make my own though, it is cheaper.

Glad to hear about your VW, I think you'll love it.

[tammywammy]

10. Well, living in an apartment

without a garage, I can't make my own.

I'm very excited about the Beetle. Thankfully I work at a VW dealership, so I'm getting a discount, otherwise right now, they go for sticker (if one makes it on to the lot).

[MadHound]

12. Sorry to hear that,

But you will still be doing lots of good with much lower emissions, and will still be paying less as the pump. Good for you!

[dhinojosa]

14. Must have sunny skies where you live....

Scooters to me are enjoyable little travel bikes

[MadHound]

15. Oh, I live in Mid Missouri

And the weather gets nasty around here. However, if it isn't wet or icy outside, I'll ride my scooter. Cold doesn't bother me much once I'm properly bundled, and if needed, I can always get one of those nifty little heated jackets that you can buy at your local HD store.

Yeah, I love scooters, love my new Bajaj. A serious little bike that gets up and goes, but sips gas like a hummingbird.

When it is nasty outside, I'll take my little four cylinder truck. I figure that even in the worst months though, I'll still average at least one hundred dollars a month less in gas expenses, and next spring, summer and fall, even more.

[dhinojosa]

16. Good job!!!!

hehe

[Terran]

32. MadHound, where be you?

I live in Jeff City. And I agree, a scooter here would still be viable unless there's a tornado or an ice storm. I'm thinking about it.

[MadHound]

41. Live over in the Auxvasse area,

And I commute to Columbia. At twenty-six miles one way, I had to do something to reduce my fuel bill. Hopefully this will work out well, for my wife and I can't afford a hybrid or diesel truck for another few years.

I highly recomend the Bajaj scooter. Durable, easy to operate, goes aprox fifty-fifty five mph, and gets 100-110 mpg. It has enough power to get you up and down those hills in Jeff City.

Right now, there are no new Bajajs in Missouri or the states surrounding(I bought the last one). However, the new models are supposed to be available in Dec., perhaps sooner.

Here's the link to Bajaj USA for more info.<http://www.bajajusa.com>

[Terran]

49. Thanks very much for the information.

And this just goes to show you can find progressive Dems no matter where you look! :)

[politicat]

35. You know, my gas-car gets 45 city, 53 highway.

And it's paid for. If/when I can get my hands on a diesel vehicle, I'll switch off of gas entirely, but a Prius still uses gas. I want off the fossil fuel tit, thanks.

[lectrobyte]

39. Sounds pretty cool. BTW, I don't drive a Prius, just been researching

them. What kind of car do you have that gets that kind of mileage? I had a Honda CRX HF that was rated like that, but didn't quite seem to get that good.

[politicat]

55. I drive a 2001 Hyundai accent GL

Stick shift, 5 speed, no AC. Stock tires, and we drive very conservatively. How you drive is as important as what you drive, as far as I can tell. With the back seat down, it has enough space for a dishwasher in the trunk or a treadmill with the hatch up.

Insurance for two no-ticket drivers about $500 a year in high rate Colorado.

[confludemocrat]

24. mid-options model: $23,400 realworld mpg: 50H/39-44city, lotta wind here

which causes mileage to drop.

[blm]

2. any more info?

.

[SCDem]

4. happy with my Honda Civic Hybrid

which was $8,000 cheaper than the Prius. Is just as fuel effecient and is equally an Ultra Low Emissions Vehicle. And will be getting my tax credit when I file taxes next year.

But for everyone that can buy them should, or any hybrid for that matter.

[triguy46]

19. I can't make the numbers work

which is why the gas civic is outselling the hybrid. the incremental savings in fuel are eaten up by the significantly higher cost.

[triguy46]

20. Plus the assumption is you can get a Prius by January...

I've heard of waiting lists of a year on the coasts. Is that true? Plus a price hit above the list due to demand.

[SCDem]

22. I don't know about a wait list

I just know that first the Toyota people needed to get back to me and get a Prius from a neighboring lot then even though the MSRP is $22,000 they quoted me at $27,000. That is just ridiculous. Honda Civic Hybrid MSRP was $21,000 and they quoted me at $19,100 for manual transmission and $19,900 for automatic.

Honda people were much more pleasant to deal with.

[confludemocrat]

26. call a dealer in a remote state like ND or SD: fewer local takers n/t

[SCDem]

21. Not for me

I did a lot of driving 170 miles round trip to work each day. Spent roughly $400 a month in gas. Bought a HCH with payments of $280 a month and then gas was only $100 a month. I'd rather put that money into a new car I own than gas every day.

Since then I have gotten a new job closer to where I live but still the fuel efficiency is great and #2 and should be biggest reason we are to buy hubrids is that it puts out less emissions into the environment.

[foflappy]

30. Less fuel burned=good thing

bottom line economics aside. And I bought my civic gasoline/hybrid for sticker on a standard civic. Hard barginning is still alive in the auto trade.

[foflappy]

29. Have had one for 70,000+miles

love it. I still get 48-52mpg mixed driving including some long highway and city driving. I paid 18,500 new for mine.

The savings is not in how much you save at the pump it is that for every mile you need to drive you are using less fuel and creating fewer emmisions per mile than others including diesel.

[SCDem]

33. Yep that is what convinced me to go ahead and buy one

All my friends that own the Prius or HCH have both owned them for a long time (since 2000 or 2001) and all have never had any problems with them.

[newyawker99]

50. Hi foflappy!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[lonestarnot]

52. I think they have more get up and go than the prius and I've

driven both. Am waiting till the end of the year.

[Stand and Fight]

5. Bookmarking this for once I get home. n/t

[in_cog_ni_to]

9. THAT'S my plan. I was going to order one in December.

Is the tax credit good for ONLY cars ordered/purchased in January or can I still order in December and get the car in Feb-March and still get the tax credit? Or should I wait to order it in January? Do you know?

[skids]

40. 60,000 qualifying sales plus a grace period.

I think Feb-March should be fine. That is 60,000 of any qualifying vehicle, though, and many Toyota cars and trucks qualify, though not for nearly as large a tax credit.

[wallwriter]

11. I changed my driving habits

in my '94 Civic. In town mpg has gone from 23 to 32 mpg when I shift at 2000 rpms instead of 5000.

Best of all, it's free! Which is good, because I can't afford a Prius.

[Iktomiwicasa]

13. A Prius.....

....makes a piss poor rez runner. I can't haul my firewood in one, and it would look awfully funny with dead deer strapped to the hood :smoke:

[Chemical Bill]

17. Prius is too little too late (sorry, nothing personal).

I've burned about 100 gallons of petroleum in 42,000 miles of running my VW diesel on biodiesel. That's only because they haven't found a way to stop the fuel from freezing in the winter without petrodiesel. I think if enough of us demand it there will be a way to live without petroleum, but it will involve paying more for cheap plastic junk from China.

Bill

[triguy46]

18. Do the math first

Even with the $2,400, the high cost of the prius really hurts. From an economic point of view, my analysis shows that the "cost of ownership" using EPA mileage figures and manufacturers list prices, the plain old honda civic still wins. Yes you use less gas, but unless you are only interested in that, nothing else, the honda is a better financial choice.

Of course, in nearly all cases, not buying a car and driving what you have paid off wins hands down from a cost of ownership perspective.

[garybeck]

23. don't waste money on a hybrid - GET A DIESEL

IMHO, hybrids are a waste of money. they were designed to cater to people with money who want to feel good about trying to do something good for the environment. however, they typically only save about 30% in fuel efficiency, and incorporate A LOT more hardware (and cost) and a lot more things that can go wrong.

if you want to really wean yourself from the oil companies, save money, and help the environment, get yourself a diesel car. Then, run it on biodiesel or vegetable oil.

You don't have to spend $40,000 ... you can get an old diesel for $1000 if you want. You can run it on 100% biodiesel without modifying anything on the car. Currently biodiesel already costs less than gasoline, and the diesel engine is more efficient than a gas motor, so you will save money right away.

The environmental benefits of biodiesel and/or vegetable oil are well documented as well. much better than just using 30% less of gasoline.

for a basic intro on this subject you can check this out:

http://www.solarbus.org/biodiesel.shtml

[confludemocrat]

25. people can think they are savvy in not going w/hype but hype is true in

this case. Has been trouble-free (its a Toyota), a joy to drive is not underpowered in any major way and is a solid car in all respects, pretty roomy. We have a 2nd place 420 miles from where we live, roundtrip gas cost says it all compared to anything else.

[Chemical Bill]

27. You still support a war in Iraq when you buy gasoline. n/t

[foflappy]

31. If that were true

then if you purchase anything from a store or eat any commercially grown food or wear clothes then you support the war. Oil touches nearly every part of your life. You participate even if you do not drive.

[garybeck]

37. I'm not sure you actuall "support the war."

people don't have choices sometimes. we do the best we can in the decisions we make. all I'm saying is that if you run on biodiesel you can wean yourself from petroleum, and that is a good thing.

[garybeck]

36. the point is

that you are still running on petroleum.

you are only saving 30% of your fuel costs.

the option is only available to upper middle class people who can afford it.

there are other options that pollute much less and cost much less.

i'm not saying your car doesn't drive great. I'm just saying, well, what I said above...

[confludemocrat]

47. So despite the categorical statement about "wasting" money on a hybrid,

you are really saying if you have the time and money and ability, take the time and expense to track down a vehicle that can be converted (a Mercedes someone says above, I think), buy it, acquire the tools or you have acquired them probably other than by stealing them (point: add'l expense), buy the parts you need to make the conversion (more time and expense) and in your shop at home which unless you live in a particularly warm climate you will probably need to heat it or burn the lights into the night doing the work, and unless you you are paid minimum wage, your time off work to do the job is going to cost you even more expense (time is money) or time away from the family (priceless these days). I congratulate you on the interest and ability to do such work and have the time.

[garybeck]

56. no that is not what I'm saying at all

there is no "time and expense" in finding a diesel vehicle, any more than any other type of vehicle. when you are searching for a vehicle, whether it be a hybrid, diesel, or a guzzling SUV, it takes some time to find what you're looking for. that's a wash.

you don't need any tools to run a diesel on biodiesel. you don't need anything except a diesel car and some diesel fuel. you don't need to do any kind of conversion to run on biodiesel.

no, you don't need to heat the fuel, or "burn the lights into the night doing the work."

my point is not that hybrids are bad. my point is that they are overhyped and if you want to do something good for the environment, stop supporting the oil companies, and even save some money, don't waste your time with hybrid. get a diesel.

[confludemocrat]

58. OK, got it, thanks.

No conversion, main thing. OK, next car will be biodiesel!

[Chemical Bill]

59. Actually my car is stock, and biodiesel costs $3.07 per gallon.

No conversion necessary, just a disesl engine.

You have to convert a car to run on waste oil from a kitchen, which is cheap or free.

Bill

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[garybeck]

38. I'm about to purchase the exact same car

the wagons are hard to find but i think i found one.

[Name removed]

43. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[foflappy]

34. Emissions

are the primary issue in fuel economy. Diesel is dirty. Very high in particulates and very bad for young,old and infirm lungs.

Veggie cars are great but not very practical. (upkeep, access to fuel etc..)

Biodiesel may come around but at this time it is a negative equation. energy in =less energy out. You need to burn a lot of propane to make biodiesel.

They are working on a new process at University of Illinois to make a more efficient process.

[garybeck]

42. not exactly...

with all due respect,

first off, the production of biodiesel does not involve the burning of propane. biodiesel production is a chemical process, there is no burning of anything involved. I know many people who have made biodiesel and never heard of anyone burning propane. you can read how biodiesel is produced at biodiesel.org and many other websites.

I will disagree with your comments about using vegetable oil as fuel. I think considering the fuel is usually free, it's worth the trouble of collecting and filtering it. I don't think there is an "upkeep" issue as you say. I know many people who have these systems and don't have significant problems.

in regards to emissions, biodiesel emmissions are far less in virtually every category compared to petroleum fuels. if your main concern is emissions, you should love biodiesel. not only are the emissions low, but the plant that makes the vegetable oil that will be made into biodiesel actually absorbs more CO2 than the car will put into the air when it's burned. the process actually removes CO2 from the atmosphere. The one caveat on that is the transportation of the fuel to the end user, which today is still by conventional means, so there is CO2 production there. But if you live in the midwest there is little transportation involved, or if you have a local producer. Regardless, as your first sentence indicates, emmissions are a primary concern, and that is why biodiesel is such a good choice.

[screembloodymurder]

45. Just where do you buy your vegetable oil?

Since I'd rather not spend my time searching for Chinese restaurants or pouring one gallon containers into my gas tank, I think I'll stick with what's in the pump.

[garybeck]

46. it's not really that complicated

used vegetable oil is free. it's worth a little time for most of us.

it's usually 5 gallon containers, not 1 gallon containers, and filtering it only takes a few minutes.

regardless, if you don't want to deal with that hassle, you can just use biodiesel, which is available in many places now, right at the pump, and with the recent increases in petroleum prices, it is actually cheaper than gas.

[screembloodymurder]

53. Not available here (PA).

And diesel is dirtier and more expensive than gas. For the vast majority, the hybrid is a clear winner. Why put down a good thing?

[garybeck]

54. biodiesel availability in PA

here take a look:

http://biodiesel.org/buyingbiodiesel/retailfuelingsites/showstate.asp?st=PA

I also find that this list is outdated and there is usually quite a bit more than is listed on that site. here in vermont we have about twice as much as is listed on the biodiesel.org site.

the good news is that every year more and more becomes available, and the reason is that businesspeople and entrepeneurs realize there is money to be made. there are people who want to use biodiesel and they can sell it to them. it's purely market driven.

so if you live in a place where it's not easily available, there are things you can do. call all your fuel oil suppliers and ask them if they sell Biodiesel. if they don't, encourage them to and tell them you'll buy it if they sell it. send them information on it. put them in touch with a wholesaler. tell them it's being sold in other areas and a lot of people are using it.

you will find it will happen eventually. here in vermont, 3 years ago we had to buy biodiesel 500 gallons at a time. it was such a pain. I had to form a buying club and we had to figure out how to get it dropped off at one of our houses and then distribute it to each of the people who wanted some. not much changed until this year. now we have 3 gas stations in the burlington area selling biodiesel blends, another gas station a few miles away selling B100, and a fuel oil company selling B100, that they will deliver to your house.

it is not true that diesel is more expensive than gas. if your gas station is selling diesel for more than gas, it's purely for market reasons. diesel is cheaper to produce than gas and it should be cheaper and it is cheaper in most places.

diesel is not necessarily dirtier than gas. it depends on the emission you are looking at. diesel vehicles put less CO2 into the atmosphere than gasoline vehicles because they are more efficient.

My gripe with hybrids is that they are overhyped. they are not a solution. they only reduce fuel efficiency by about 30%. there is a lot more hardware in the vehicle and more things that can go wrong or need to be fixed. they are very expensive.

the bottom line is that hybrids are bettern than "normal" cars if you can afford them. but if you really want to help the environment, help the farmers, and stop supporting the oil companies, get a diesel and go for biodiesel or

[skids]

60. C'mon folks lets try not to argue from a position of ignorance.

No, biodiesel is not dirty. Fossil diesel is dirty. At least, fossil diesel is dirty until the laws change and then fossil diesel won't be especially dirty anymore (though it will still be a carbon loader of course.)

The hybrid camp should not trash biodeisel.

No, hybrids are not overhyped. They are a solution. They have extremely low emissions, which is the point -- the reduced fuel use is a side benefit of the hybrid technology. Try and wrap your heads around that.

There is a not a lot more hardware in the vehicle and properly constructed hybrids break less often than normal gas cars. Why? Because (again, in a properly constructed hybrid) there is no starter engine, belt-driven alternator, or gearbox. The break pads don't wear out as fast, the internal combustion engine is babied by the computer and endures less stress. In fact the entire ICE assembly should last longer due to the reduced/controlled operating range.

The biodeisel camp should not trash hybrids

And hey, newsflash folks:

Diesels can be hybrids!

By buying a gas hybrid, car owners are buying into a technology that has been used with diesel engines to deliver a mileage and emissions improvement to diesel engines too. ON TOP OF USING BIODEISEL. They are financing companies that are rapidly reducing the hybrid component costs (Toyota is looking to slash them by half for starters) and will eventually be offered here in the U.S. Once the U.S.'s fossil diesel supply isn't saturated with sulfur, that is.

Wouldn't you biodeisel guys like to have a car that is a PZEV? Wouldn't you hybrid owners like to be able to buy a deisel hybrid someday?

Jeebus H Christ on a crutch folks, educate yourselves. Energy management is only the biggest issue facing the human race, and these are the "facts" you folks come to the table with? This circular firing squad shames me to be among you. It's no wonder Americans are viewed as ignorant.

[garybeck]

61. we're not arguing; at least I'm not.

please don't imply that I'm not educated on this. I know what I'm talking about. I am an educator. I am not "ignorant" as you imply. yes diesels can be hybrids but I don't know of one available, do you?

My point in bringing up diesels in this discussion is based on my experience in talking to thousands of people about this.

I find that most people who purchase hybrids do so because they want to buy a car that is less harmful to the environment. Most of these people are unaware that there is an alternative - getting a diesel and running it on biodiesel.

Hybrids get all the press. They are "sexy." Auto magazines talk about them all the time. Biodiesel does not get as much recognition. And what I find is that for the folks considering a car purchase, when they learn that hybrids are not the only choice they want to learn more. When I explain to them the benefits of biodiesel and how it can be used with any diesel vehicle, they often are very interested in doing this.

I really do not mean to argue, and as you likely know, raw text often looks like arguing when it's not. I try to be respectful in all my comments and everything I say. I was only trying to let people know that if they are looking for a car that is good on the environment, that hybrid is not the only choice. If I was a little over zealous with my wording, I apologize. I still think that biodiesel offers a much better choice than hybrids because it completely ends use of petroleum oil, and the emissions are very good.

peace.

[skids]

66. Diesel hybrids.

As far as U.S. availability this is the current status:

http://www.wired.com/news/autotech/0,2554,66949,00.html

I have no qualm with pointing out that biodiesel is a currently available alternative to hybrids. Just so long as falsehoods about hybrids aren't used to do so.

The two technologies need each other. Hybrid powertrains would reduce the amount of required biodiesel, which helps mitigate concerns about the total production capability of biodiesel.

[Lorien]

62. Nah; $22,000 Prius for me. Emissions are important

being green is a moral and ethical issue to me; not just some "feel good" bullshit.My friend has a Prius and he often gets 100 mpg on certain trips. He loves it; great ride, great performance (he was driving a 2004 Camry prior to purchasing the Prius)and plenty of interior space. Quiet too.All of his friends who have test driven it want one now.

[Poiuyt]

44. I don't have tax problems

Cash flow problems, yes. Tax problems, no.

[BiggJawn]

48. I don't make enough money to worry about "tax credits".

You don't get back more than you pay in.

Geebus Crisco, I just wanna keep it together another 18 months until this fuching Ford I have is paid for. THEN I can afford to feed the sumbitch...

[lonestarnot]

51. Hmmm have you compared the Prius to the Honda Civic Hybrid?

[Deja Q]

57. The chances of me having a job is quite low.

I am $14k in debt.

Sorry, can't buy one.

Wanna buy me one? :D

[Clark2008]

63. There are other hybrids beside Prius (which is UGLY)

How 'bout supporting AMERICAN products.

:banghead:

(And, yes, I realize some of these cars are made in America, but the profits go to Japan, which is the point.)

Try a Ford Escape Hybrid. It looks more like something a regular person would drive. The Prius is just UGLY.

Granted, I don't like either one, much, because I like sports cars and not boxy-looking SUVs or cars.

[LeftyMom]

64. I'm all for buying american

but the Escape hybrid has a Honda motor and gets similar milage to my current 8 year old Saturn wagon. Not worth getting a new car over, IMO.

Personally I want a hybrid van or one I can run on biodeisel or WVO. Either one will almost have to be an import, since american companies don't make good family vans.

[Bouncy Ball]

65. My little car is paid for

and gets pretty good gas mileage. Husband is switching from a truck to a used (but not too used) Toyota Corolla soon, which will be a huge help on the gas budget!

We've also gotten very very good at combining trips and simply not using the car when we can get away with it. Not easy living where we do, but worth it. He rides his bike up to the store for small trips.