Civil Disobedience: What it takes.

[txaslftist]

Civil disobedience is not going to a protest in a country that permits you to protest freely. That is civil obedience.

It is not writing a scathing editorial that gets printed because the country permits free speech. That is also civil obedience.

Civil disobedience is sitting in the front of the bus when it is ILLEGAL for you to do so. It is committing a criminal act of DISOBEDIENCE to the law, going to trial and stating the facts, and if the jury convicts you, DOING TIME.

Civil disobedience is jumping on the front of a tank, knowing they might just kill you.

Civil disobedience is walking to the sea to make salt knowing it is illegal because by law the British have a monopoly on the salt trade in your country.

Civil disobedience means you might lose your job, your life, your station, your reputation and your liberty. It means you might be marked for life as a "crackpot" or a "radical" or a "criminal".

Civil disobedience is just one step short of revolution, and takes a revolutionary's commitment, a pacifist's resolve and a Christian's willingness to turn the other cheek in the face of outrageous insult and assault.

We need more Civil Disobedience.

[bryant69]

1. I don't know

This seems more like a listing of reasons not to do civil disobedience.

What is the value of civil disobedience? I mean you've presented all the negatives - so why should I be willing to give up my job and my life to engage in it?

Please don't feel like you need to convince me that the Bush Administration are a bunch of bastards; I'm already clear on that.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[merwin]

4. If that logic was used, we would still have the following:

* We would still be a British territory
* Slavery would still be legal
* Women couldn't vote

Those are just the first 3 things that come to mind.

If you feel comfortable knowing that your children are going to be 10x worse off than you are, then by all means, do nothing.

Do you think that somehow writing editorials and pointing out Bush's mistakes are going to suddenly wake up the 40% of the country that still think he's doing a good job?

Selfishness is what got our country into the mess that we're in right now.

[bryant69]

11. Ah good response

Why yes I am a selfish bastard. Thanks for pointing that out.

What evidence do you have that civil disobediance will be effective in this case? What form of civil disobedience to you suggest?

Also, I hesitate to point this out, but although the suffregates were harrased certainly they mostly protested and wrote leters to the editors - examples of civil obedience according to original poster.

[merwin]

24. I'm not suggesting any particular form of civil disobedience.

I'm just saying that when you have a regime in power that ignores and hurts the people, and enough ignorant people to keep that regime in power, 'civil obedience' does absolutely nothing.

Bush's popularity will have to get down to under 20% before Republicans would consider ousting the administration. And even then, it would be a faux impeachment, since the republicans own both houses and the judiciary.

I'm not saying go out and kill someone. There are milder forms of civil disobedience, such as gathering a group of a few hundred people and protesting outside of a 'free speech zone' in DC, and refusing to leave.

To each his own...

[Journeyman]

5. Read Henry David Thoreau's "Civil Disobedience". . .

it's not a tactic for everyone.



http://eserver.org/thoreau/civil.html



I HEARTILY ACCEPT the motto,—"That government is best which governs least"; and I should like to see it acted up to more rapidly and systematically. Carried out, it finally amounts to this, which also I believe,—"That government is best which governs not at all"; and when men are prepared for it, that will be the kind of government which they will have. Government is at best but an expedient; but most governments are usually, and all governments are sometimes, inexpedient. The objections which have been brought against a standing army, and they are many and weighty, and deserve to prevail, may also at last be brought against a standing government. The standing army is only an arm of the standing government. The government itself, which is only the mode which the people have chosen to execute their will, is equally liable to be abused and perverted before the people can act through it. Witness the present Mexican war, the work of comparatively a few individuals using the standing government as their tool; for, in the outset, the people would not have consented to this measure.

This American government—what is it but a tradition, though a recent one, endeavoring to transmit itself unimpaired to posterity, but each instant losing some of its integrity? It has not the vitality and force of a single living man; for a single man can bend it to his will. It is a sort of wooden gun to the people themselves. But it is not the less necessary for this; for the people must have some complicated machinery or other, and hear its din, to satisfy that idea of government which they have. Governments show thus how successfully men can be imposed on, even impose on themselves, for their own advantage. It is excellent, we must all allow. Yet this government never of itself furthered any enterprise, but by the alacrity with which it got out of its way. It does not keep the country free. It does not settle the West. It does not educate. The character inherent in the American people has done all that has been accomplished; and it would have done somewhat more, if the government had not sometimes got in its way. For government is an expedient by which men would fain succeed in letting one another alone; and, as has been said, when it is most expedient, the governed are most let alone by it. Trade and commerce, if they were not made of India rubber, would never manage to bounce over the obstacles which legislators are continually putting in their way; and, if one were to judge these men wholly by the effects of their actions, and not partly by their intentions, they would deserve to be classed and punished with those mischievous persons who put obstructions on the railroads.

But, to speak practically and as a citizen, unlike those who call themselves no-government men, I ask for, not at once no government, but at once a better government. Let every man make known what kind of government would command his respect, and that will be one step toward obtaining it.

(much more)

[moodforaday]

10. Thoreau was very restrictive

about when to engage in civil disobedience:

If the injustice is part of the necessary friction of the machine of government, let it go, let it go; perchance it will wear smooth—certainly the machine will wear out. If the injustice has a spring, or a pulley, or a rope, or a crank, exclusively for itself, then perhaps you may consider whether the remedy will not be worse than the evil; but if it is of such a nature that it requires you to be the agent of injustice to another, then, I say, break the law. Let your life be a counter friction to stop the machine. What I have to do is to see, at any rate, that I do not lend myself to the wrong which I condemn.

He's saying: only break the law when the law requires you to do injustice to another. Not when you simply disagree with the law for wahetver reason, not even if the injustice is self-perpetuating.

And yet, his words are still so radical today. I taught US literature at a university here in Poland for several years, and every time my students read "Civil Disobedience", they were seriously puzzled. What do you mean, brek the law? Isn't that illegal? Why would anyone do such a thing? And this was, mind, some 20 years after Solidarity turned this country around. How soon we forget!

[Mairead]

2. There are legitimate (I think) differences of attitude toward the 'do the

time' part. It's analogous to the 'die for your country' idea: much better to live for your country, and make sure it's the buggers causing the problem who do any suffering or dying that's required.

The world tends not to care about its martyrs. 'Life goes on, Indy'. So better not to supply more martyrs than is absolutely required.

[whatever4]

3. That reminds me

of how I felt when, here in my home town, the KKK was allowed to join in clean-up-the-highways program. Civil disobedience. It was over 5 years ago now, and got me started talking on the internet. Things weren't even as bad then as they are now, in our nation. This is like a little memory lane trip.

They wanted to put their sign up, those KKK people, and wear the vests, and keep the highway clean. That's what they said. It was when I started posting on forum sites, because I wanted to tell people to trash those signs. I said to literally throw trash at and around the signs. Drive-by trashings. Let the KKK clean it up. Let them show their faces right beside their signs, for all the world to see the members. One fellow finally got on (there wasn't much traffic back then) and asked if I was espousing civil disobedience. I said, well, yes. Yes I was. I thought it was an appropriate level of disobedience for such a hateful group. I didn't think it should fly, not here, no way, those signs.

Turns out that didn't happen, the trashing of the signs, but folks here kept on taking the signs, stealing them. The KKK had won, but too many people around here participated in civil disobedience. The signs kept on disappearing, and after the third one, I think it was, they said it would take a few months to make more signs. It was precious, the last guy to take down a sign (who was caught in the act) was a white guy driving a pickup truck. He wasn't affiliated with ANYBODY, he just thought it was wrong. He said so, on tv, it was so sweet. He didn't care if they caught him or not.

Then they renamed that stretch of highway to "The Rosa Parks Highway". It was magnificent. The KKK never DID clean up the highway, as I recall. They didn't want to, after the renaming, and let it go.

I liked your points on civil disobedience. If it's safe and legal, it's not a disobedient act. Sometimes, when the law refuses to recognize a wrong, it's the only way to act. The only ethical thing to do is to protest the establishment that believes a wrong thing is acceptable. Otherwise we all accept rampant injustice by passively accepting, doing nothing, turning away, and in the end, we aren't any better than the company we keep.

[txaslftist]

14. Stealing the signs is an excellent form of civil disobedience, IMO.

But the man who got caught was even better.

[Lars39]

6. Support December 1st nationwide strike

against war, poverty, and racism.
http://www.troopsoutnow.org/dec1endorse.shtml
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Thanks to BayCityProgressive for bringing this to our attention! :toast:
Please recommend and kick occasionally:http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4815971

[mcscajun]

7. Gandhi on Civil Disobedience

Gandhi outlined the following rules:

1. A satyagrahi, i.e., a civil resister, will harbour no anger.

2. He will suffer the anger of the opponent.

3. In so doing he will put up with assaults from the opponent, never retaliate; but he will not submit, out of fear of punishment or the like, to any order given in anger.

4. When any person in authority seeks to arrest a civil resister, he will voluntarily submit to the arrest, and he will not resist the attachment or removal of his own property, if any, when it is sought to be confiscated by authorities.

5. If a civil resister has any property in his possession as a trustee, he will refuse to surrender it, even though in defending it he might lose his life. He will, however, never retaliate.

6. Retaliation includes swearing and cursing.

7. Therefore a civil resister will never insult his opponent, and therefore also not take part in many of the newly coined cries which are contrary to the spirit of ahimsa.

8. A civil resister will not salute the Union Jack, nor will he insult it or officials, English or Indian.

9. In the course of the struggle if anyone insults an official or commits an assault upon him, a civil resister will protect such official or officials from the insult or attack even at the risk of his life.

Henry David Thoreau went to jail for civil disobedience (Refusal to pay a certain tax.)
Martin Luther King went to jail for civil disobedience (following the protests in Birmingham, AL.)
The Berrigan brothers went to jail for civil disobedience (protesting the Vietnam War.)
Martin Sheen has been arrested over 60 times for civil disobedience.

There are countless other examples; perhaps others can supply them here.

Civil disobedience is not like a stroll through the park: you are breaking a law or laws, whether you agree with them or not. You may not necessarily be arrested, but you must be prepared to be arrested. It's part and parcel of the process. It's part of "bearing witness", if you will.

Hell, even in peaceful protests with permits, organizers and lawyers encourage participants to write a legal aid phone number on their forearm in case of arrest. Such is the BushWorld we live in.

[moodforaday]

8. I only disagree with your 1st statement

Name;y: "Civil disobedience is not going to a protest in a country that permits you to protest freely. That is civil obedience."

I think this does a disservice to dissenters. By participating in a legal protest, I'm not being "obedient" in any sense. I'm voicing my disagreement and my *presence* to the powers. It's a fair warning. It's the first step towards civil disobedience.

[rman]

19. Protests can be useful - it's just that it's not disobediant.

One can effect change without being disobediant. Though in the end it will probably take some disobediance to really turn things around.

[Taxloss]

9. Have you read Thoreau, "Civil Disobedience"?

Fantastic little tract. I have it on my desk right now. That's the intellectual starting point.

[pitohui]

12. if breaking the law is what it takes

you're going to have trouble getting ppl excited abt that

no, i am not going to give up my one & only life, reputation, liberty

what is the point of that

no one died & made me jesus

i haven't made anyone better off & i've made at least one person worse off -- myself

i agree w. bryan, yr post is a great argument not to indulge in civil disobedience

what we need is more legal ways to get our message out and more legal avenues to change

we do not need to impoverish imprison & discredit even more of the left making us even more long-term ineffective

[bloom]

13. I agree...

And the abominations of FEMA in New Orleans demand it.

[MsTryska]

15. nice work.....

my grandfather was tossed in jail for participating in the Salt march.

[txaslftist]

16. Oh Eeeek Eeeeek. Jail time.

Heaven forbid I should go to jail.

Martin Luther King Jr. wrote "A letter from a Birmingham Jail" from ... a jail.

One-third of all African American Males born today will, if present trends continue, spend some time in jail.

The US has the highest population of inmates of ANY country in the world, not only in sheer numbers, but also as a percentage of the population.

The nation is headed in a direction none of us like. Huge numbers of inmates attest to a host of flawed policies. They are not all bad people.

One point of pride my great grandmother had was that none of her family had ever been in jail, ever. That holds true today.

But when the occasion comes for civil disobedience, and it is coming, I will take pride in the fact that I WAS in jail for it. Like the Vietnam protesters took pride in going to jail and wear it even today as a badge of honor.

It is not the worst thing that can happen to you. It should not be a price you cannot bear; if it is, then okay, don't engage in civil disobedience.

But if you have courage, and you are resolved, it is not too much to risk. Sometimes even the powers that be are afraid to jail protesters. When Dr. Marble told Cheney to fuck himself he was handcuffed and well aware he might have to go to jail. But the cops were afraid to arrest him and in fact probably admired his courage.

Don't be afraid of jail.

[pitohui]

22. sorry, i'm going to concentrate on putting BAD GUYS not good ppl in jail

going to jail is something different now

you lose your power & your credibility

you lose your ability to work in many areas that require licenses or state credentials

you may be infected w. a fatal disease, anything from hepatitis to MRSAs to HIV

as a result of repeated rapes or trauma, you may be mentally unfit to do further work in the cause & may in fact become a drag on others because of yr need for PTSD care

we need more voters on the rolls, we need more more strong healthy successful ppl in our cause

we do not need to deliberately seek out being disenfranchised, discredited, infected, & unable to move between counties & states(felons on parole have strict controls on where they can go), unable to own our businesses or get hired for good jobs

going to jail MAY work to draw attention to a cause if you are a celeb like martin luther king

altho i don't notice it doing much these days, some, like susan sarandon have been to jail over 40 times, & nothing much changes

all YOUR jail time, you being an unknown, will do is ruin YOUR life & the life of your dependents

it is stupid & irresponsible

let's concentrate on putting BAD GUYS in jail, thankyouverramuch

it is a different world from 1968!

whatever statement was to be made by going to jail has been made, it just doesn't do anything effective & prob. hasn't since the early 80s

times change, tactics need to change also

[crispini]

17. If you think the law is wrong, break the law.

And face the consequences, am I correct?

So, then, specifically, what are some concrete acts of civil disobedience that could be practiced today that might help get us out of Iraq, etcetera?

[CBGLuthier]

18. A Slight Clarification about the front of the bus

You may not have been referring to Rosa Parks but since she is the most famous person associated with defying segregated seating I would like to clarify.

She did not sit in the front of the bus.

She was sitting in the so called "colored" section.

But the rules were, if white people didn't have a place to sit, then the "colored" section would be moved back.

She was sitting where she was supposed to and she refused to move.

Which is still a very brave act for anyone of color in this country back then let alone a small woman of color.

[txaslftist]

20. Thanks for that...

...I was actually thinking generally about the times, not specifically about Rosa Parks. Thanks for the information, though.

[nadinbrzezinski]

21. Yuo know Ithe only but to your post is

christian commitment? I am Jewish, and let me tell you I have involved myself in quite a bit of civil disobedience, beyond marches, as much as you poopoo them.. by the way

[meganmonkey]

23. Will you be in DC this weekend?

There are all sorts of things happening aside from the permitted march.

Including mass civil disobedience on MOnday the 26th, organized by UFPJ. Sunday the 25th there is training for those who have never risked arrest.

http://www.unitedforpeace.org/article.php?id=3087

I'll see you all there!

[txaslftist]

27. I will be there.

I'm looking to some sort of "DU meeting" where I can put some faces on the monickers.

[meganmonkey]

28. There's some info in the DC forum about DU events

There will be a meetup at a bar on Fri and Sat nite (although the locations have changed, so stay tuned). There is a breakfast on Sat. morning, and there will be a place for DUers to meet up at the march itself on Saturday.

I will be at the bars for sure.

Can't wait to meet you and everyone else!

This is the updated info about the meetups:
http://www.brainshrub.com/dcdumeetup

This is where you can check in for the DC events, although the main post on this thread has the old info:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=148&topic_id=810&mesg_id=810

[rman]

25. dupe deleted

[rman]

26. The White Rose

The White Rose Society (German, Die Weiße Rose) was a World War II-era resistance movement in Germany calling for nonviolent resistance against the Nazi regime. The group of Munich students released six leaflets from June 1942 to February 1943. A seventh leaflet, which may have been prepared, was never released because the group was captured by the Gestapo.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Rose

Hans Scholl and Alexander Schmorell were at the center of a close-knit group of friends who shared the same ideals and interests in medicine, music, art, theology and philosophy. They soon recognized their shared disgust for Adolf Hitler, the Third Reich and the Gestapo. Hans and Alex were soon joined by Christoph Probst (a level-headed, married soldier and father of three who was loved by everyone who knew him) and Willi Graf (another medical student and a devout Catholic who never joined the Hitler Youth and refused to acknowledge those who did). And there was Sophie, Hans Scholl's
http://www.jlrweb.com/whiterose/


http://www.whiterosesociety.org/

[Beam Me Up]

29. ........

[rman]

30. kick