God's gift to America: Jesus

[LostInAnomie]

Believe it or not that is what I read on a bumper sticker on the back of a car today. While I am not a religious man I still find the even the hint of the idea offensive that Jesus was God's gift to America only. What makes these bastards think that no matter what America is on the side of the angels and God favors them above all?

[applegrove]

1. God gave his son's life so that human beings would no longer

scapegoat each other. God said "blame me" when things are tough.

Bush is not a christian. He is part of a sociopathic cabal that taught his christian followers to blame others. One scapegoat after another.

[wuushew]

3. Isn't Xtian a self ascribed label?

n/t

[applegrove]

6. I don't know exactly what you mean?

[pepperlove]

69. Yes, but

CHRISTian is not... it is ascribed by the Word of God...by grace through faith.

[greyl]

9. Yeah, right. nt

[applegrove]

10. That is what the golden rule of most monotheistic religions taught.

That was the breakthrough in thinking. Not to target someone when things go wrong. Treat others as you would want to be treated. Was a big deal at the time. You were no longer supposed to stone somebody cause of the weather. People in tribal groups spend an awful lot of time murdering each other when they felt like it.

Bush seems to have missed that all important message most of the way through his presidency.

[greyl]

13. That was not a breakthrough in thinking.

"You were no longer supposed to stone somebody cause of the weather."

But you could kill them if they were mentally ill(possessed)?
Or if you wanted to cultivate their land for your own destructive and counter-evolutionary expansion across the planet?

"People in tribal groups spend an awful lot of time murdering each other when they felt like it."

That is an ignorant falsehood. As a firm rule, tribal cultures are no more dangerous to other humans as tigers are to other tigers. Otherwise, humans wouldn't have survived for 3 million years.


sarc: Now that we've had that "breakthrough in thinking" for the past several thousand years of monotheistic religions, things have really improved, eh? Senseless killing is unheard of. Especially when thoughts of the one true god and the one right way to live are kept close to one's heart.
/sarc

[applegrove]

14. Yes but in some tribal cultures there was no police & if you stepped

out of line you got sacrificed. I think monotheism was the grandaddy of such thought - stop it with the sacrifices.


Monotheism was a step.

My point is that Bush has stepped back from that.

I never said that religion didn't amount to war. But that was religion practiced by the elites for the most part.

[Modem Butterfly]

107. In OUR society, if you step out of line you get executed

Just like in just about every theistic society, mono or poly. Lawbreakers get executed. Sometimes they call it something else is all...

[applegrove]

131. Honey - we are talking about stepping out of line because you

had a tendency to pick flowers on a sunny days. Not because you committed a crime of any sort (as we would define it).

[Tafiti]

118. Perfect post, greyl.

Such "ignorant falsehoods" are so pervasive, especially in our culture. Funny how these "primitive", "uncivilized" tribal groups were so damn successful for a few million years, and 10,000 years of civilization has brought us what? Oh yeah, the brink of planetal collapse.

[applegrove]

132. These groups lived within their environment. Yes - we destroy the planet

because we are so successful in our organized communities with technology (agriculture) & the like.

[Tafiti]

141. True, but let's extend that a bit further.

We are successful, but that's not enough for us. We simply will not allow any other culture to live any other way. We say, "Look, we know the one right way to live, and that's the way you should live too." We allow for no cultural variation whatsoever.

Today, this "one right way" is in terms of political systems and economic structure, i.e. "democracy" and capitalism. Historically, this "one right way" also included a force-feeding of Christianity, which is still an undercurrent in these political/economic philosophies that we force people to implement (at our benefit and their expense).

It's not the case of a "marketplace of ideas", where our systems have been successful and "naturally" became dominant. It was successful for us up to a point, and in order to continue to be successful, we force everyone else to "democratize", which really has nothing to do with empty platitudes about "freedom" and "rights", but opening their borders to allow our multinationals to come in and exploit their resources for profit. It's sad, but it's true.

[applegrove]

143. Actually encouraging democracy in the Middle East was a neocon

policy fault. In the 1980s they decided ME was not ready. So it was okay to make deals with Saudis & Saddam Hussein. Saudis spent billions spreading orthodox islam ism across he middle east - cause that keep the little people busy and not talking democracy.

Turns out is was wrong-headed neocon policy #1.

Now they try and undo the mess. Because the Islamists have it in mind to create just one big country (a theocracy) across the whole middle east and into Indonesia, Philippines, Thailand. Very undemocratic.

So - Bush WH is playing catchup with Reagan and Western policy which was to discourage democracy in the middle east. As far back as the 1950s the Iranians had elected populist leader who was undone and replaced with the shaw.

As to corporations - yes it is easier for them to deal with a bunch of smaller democracies that with whole blocks.

But there is no reason why democracies in the world have to adopt norms of the neocons which say "no universal health care" no "monopoly power for government". That way nobody can compete with huge corporations who are in fact monopoly in their size & power.

For poor countries with no middle class is makes sense that they have some form of monopoly over their riches - just until enough capital has been made and stays home - to create a middle class.

Point is - the norms of the world are up for grabs. Neocons say they have to be one thing - but who are they? People of each country get to decide what should be normal in a democracy.

Fact is that in the last 50 years, corporations in poor countries have not improved the credit or capital or small business. So - until you reach a certain size middle class you should be able to do things to create wealth within your own country. Like Chavez saying - "okay - we want 30% of oil profits to stay in this country - because we have work to do on equality & growing a middle class".

[Tafiti]

145. No argument here!

Though being somewhat more cynical, I'd say societal norms of the world aren't really up for grabs anymore - that day has past.

I think Pat Robertson's "assassinate Chavez" remark embodies that sentiment perfectly - the ultimate neocon solution. If there's a dangerous idea out there, (that is, in danger of being successful) the CIA will squash it right quick (and quietly).

I think the real problem is that the word "democracy" resonates in a certain way in this country - I mean who isn't for democracy? The neoconservative agenda isn't compatible with true democracy, however. It's just code for economic exploitation.

Oh, and I really didn't have the Middle East in mind, because that's a whole 'nother story. I was speaking more in generalities about indigenous and aboriginal peoples and how the western world conceives of them, and consequently deals with them.

:)

[FreedomAngel82]

28. Yes

And also personal responsibility. I remember not long ago my preacher did this wonderful sermon about personal responsibility and talked about how if people would just take personal responsibility things could go better in certain situations. There are so many people in this world, and in this country, who like to blame anyone but themselves. See the republicans as examples blaming democrats/liberals for an example.

[applegrove]

48. It is about being part of a community. That is what monotheism taught.

Not scapegoating. Not finding one enemy after another to keep your power or whip up fear in your followers. That is what Christianity is about.

Corporations getting welfare has nothing to do with their "responsibility". Corporations have something called "externalities". Which they dump on the world. And then they get the contract to fix the externality. Every wonder why a company like Haliburton gets the contract to rebuild infrastructure in wake of Katrina - Katrina who was upped to a category higher than 3 by hot water the result of global warming? Whose town was refused money to prepare - while money went to pay Halliburton to lock Sunnis out of rebuilding Iraq? Responsibility? No - that is called making money off someone as they are coming and going. Ka-ching Ka-ching.

You go and buy your personal responsibly juice. I'll worry that countries and the people they represent continue to act in responsible ways for all their citizens. Where, unlike in corporate disneyland, you don't get "exactly what you want - you hopefully get what you need". Having every regulation and law go towards corporations and getting rid of regulations - that is a life "just so" for them. That is not about responsibility at all. The elites are no longer connected to the people of the countries they do so well in. Why should we pay taxes? Why should we be connected?

That is godlessness. The god part comes in to have a hierarchy to control voters who get in the way of corporate "just so" needs.

It isn't christianity. It isn't responsibility. It isn't efficiency. It isn't reality. It isn't democracy. It is a hierarchy.

[Modem Butterfly]

78. Communities existed LONG before monotheism came on the scene

[applegrove]

130. Yup - and on the whole - they sacrificed people when times got

tough or scary. At least most of the sacrifices stopped after monotheism spread the word that "it was not so good".

[greyl]

159. Bullshit. nt

[beam me up scottie]

17. Sorry, but bush IS a christian, whether you like it or not.

Unless you have the authority to declare who is and is not part of the club.

[applegrove]

19. So - no elite has ever used religion to control people from the top down.

Okay - I get ya!

[beam me up scottie]

20. What are you yammering about?

You said our fearless leader was not a christian and I disagreed.

You don't seem to "get" much.

[applegrove]

21. Thanks for the insult. He claims to be a christian but as Al Sharpton

said: "not that kind of Christian".

Bush scapegoats. He hired people to scapegoat. He is not doing or acting in Christian ways. He is a hypocritical christian. And a puppet leader whose christianity is used as a means of hierarchial control of groups - the easier to undo democracy with.

Are you new to this board? Is this news to you that some people have issues with some people who call themselves christians?

Quit it with the insults. If you cannot discuss your point then give up and move on.

[applegrove]

22. God gave is son's life so that humans would not scapgoat. The WH

looks continuously for the next person or group to attack. They struggled so hard during Katrian aftermath to find something. No luck.

That is not christian. Bush is not a christian. He doesn't even know what Christianity means.

[beam me up scottie]

29. Fundies say liberals aren't real christians.

And they have proof.

Of course, REAL christians wouldn't challenge god's authority by judging who's good enough to be called christian.

I suppose YOU'RE the exception?

[applegrove]

31. I'm not a Christian. But many of those i've loved were. And they sure

as hell never sounded like Bush.

You've convinced me. Pointing out how bad a Christian Bush is - is the most important thing for me to do right now.

[beam me up scottie]

36. So now you're agreeing that he is a christian.

But a bad one.

My work here is done.

[applegrove]

38. He is behaving as an unchristian. He is not acting as a Christian.

I know Christians. Christians have been family of mine. Bush is not Christian.

[beam me up scottie]

40. Bullshit.

Jesus Christ on a trailer hitch, look up the definition.

Stop using the reichwing's one:

good person = christian

bad person = something else

[applegrove]

43. He is not using good christian values. His actions go against everything

Christian.

Oh - and in case you didn't notice - for the first time as president & in a speech - he blamed god for something. When he could not find scapegoats for katrina - though they tried hard as they told everybody else to not point fingers - as they still try ever day. He had to make a speech, in a church, where he blamed God. For the first time in his presidency. And after pressure from African American ministers and the stories of evacuees & first responders could not be hidden - he did what a Christian is supposed to do.

Now they are back to looking for a scapegoat.

[trotsky]

73. What are "Christian values"?

Are you the final authority as to who is and who is not a Christian?

[applegrove]

133. Jesus lived his whole life teaching others not to scapegoat. Then

he died so that people could take their sins and pass them on to him & his father. So that people had to admit they were sinful every day and that their god gave his son so that they would not scapegoat. God's purpose was in saying "blame me - blame me" . Do not sacrifice a person - it has been done and you need to only remember the sacrifice of my son - every day - so that you will not need anything else or any other scapegoats.

That is the whole point of Jesus.


Bush is not that type of Christian. He is the "other type".

[trotsky]

137. That is your personal interpretation.

Bush and millions of other Christians interpret the bible differently, and who are you to judge whose interpretation is correct? They will just as vehemently say YOU aren't a Christian, you know.

[applegrove]

138. No. Any minister to gets up and does a year of sermons and doesn't

mention the poor or not to scapegoat - is a liar.

Many, many elite groups have come along and tried to "re-interpret" the bible for their own use.

That just makes they hierarchichal elites. Not Christians.

[trotsky]

139. Again, that's merely your opinion.

You unfortunately don't get to decide who is a "real" Christian.

And besides, there's John 12:1-8 in which yes, Judas is proclaiming fake concern for the poor, but Jesus responds in a very flippant way insisting that the expensive perfume is needed for his burial - "You will always have the poor among you, but you will not always have me."

Leaving aside for a moment the question of why the Son of God just had to be doused with perfume, that verse can easily be interpreted as meaning that you can't solve poverty, and that special expensive things can easily be justified for temporary purposes.

[applegrove]

140. Bush leads the Scapegoating Christians. That is what they are.

They consider themselves all pure and right. They consider anyone not like them all wrong. They do not take stock of their sins. They do not blame "god" when things go wrong. They blame gays, or divorced people.

Just a tool for the neocons to create a hierarchy. Same as any other elite that has used religion as a tool to control.

At least the neocons admit it.

[greyl]

148. Aren't you scapegoating bush?

edit: I mean, aren't you saying that the christians aren't to blame (responsible) because it's bush's doing? Like he has some supernatural power over their faculties of reason?

Who on earth would want to give up their faculties of reason in exchange for begrudging obedience to an authority figure?

[applegrove]

151. How am I scapegoating Bush? He gutted FEMA and the Budget

for army corps of engineers. Except where it benefits him - he diminishes governance and winks at his friend Haliiburton & the like.

Someone needs to take responsibility for ignoring the levee breaks on Tuesday and not sending in the troops.

Bush's appointments caused this.

It is not scapegoating Bush. This is the reality of his programs. He is after-all the President of the United States and was sitting on the army & intel on how cities break down in kaos.

The WH has told NYTimes correspondents that their PR would not be about ever admitting mistake. So - they look for a scapegoat.

He is the one responsible.

Yet he continues to find one bogeyman after the other. The person with the control and the choices is the person who takes the blame. Not the people who have no control or no choices.

I was not in any power. I blogged & did what I could when the standown was obvious. But it isn't my job. And I live in Canada. Yes - why were the blogs and the forums & the chat rooms & the journalist the ones who had to point out the obvious to Bush?

Nobody hired us to give the Pentagon or the WH information. The security of the people in the country is their job. Nobody else's.

It was his job. He didn't do it. So he half admits a mistake for the first time in his administration then he for the first time blames something on god. What a weaning. What a bad christian. His job was to protect those people the second the locals were overwhelmed - and instead - in those days - the Bush WH tried to blame the people for not leaving town. That was his first attempt.

[trotsky]

165. But they are still Christians.

Whether you like it or not.

[beam me up scottie]

71. NOT a christian ??? ROFLMAO !

Then why does your very first post read:

"God gave his son's life so that human beings would no longer
scapegoat each other" ?

:rofl:

[applegrove]

134. Bush is scapegoating people all the time. That is the whole point.

He scapegoats - one person or group after another. He is not a Jesus/God type of Christian.

[greyl]

150. Who killed Jesus? Any scapegoating of that "group" that you

can think of?

In your opinion, did Jesus come:
- to save the world?
- to save humanity?
- to save humans that believed that God botched the job when it came to making humans, so were in all important need for salvation from the hellish lot that God had burdened them with?

33. According to Jesus, how should slaves be treated?
Answer: B
- They should be beaten for disobedience, but not more severely then they deserve. --Jesus never denounced slavery: he endorsed it! He incorporated it into his teachings as if it were the most natural order (which it was for the biblical writers who didn't know any better). Why doesn't the bible--supposedly inspired by an all-loving deity--ever hint that there is something wrong with such a brutal social institution? If it were not for the influence of the bible (see answer 'd' below), the appalling American slave trade might have been curtailed, along with the bloody Civil War.

"And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes." (Luke 12:47-48) The entire context (Luke 12:41-48) shows that this is not part of a parable--it is the explanation of a parable, after Peter asked a question. But even if it were a parable, it would carry the same weight as a teaching of Jesus.

The word "servant" above is doulos, which means "slave" in Greek, and is correctly rendered "slave" by the NRSV, NAS, Scholar's Version, and others. "Shall" meant "should," as Jesus adds: "For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required." (Luke 12:48)

34. What did Jesus say about peace?
Answer: B

B. "Don't think that I came for peace on earth. I came to start wars." --Are these the words of a good man?

"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword." (Matthew 10:34) "I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled? But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished! Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division." (Luke 12:49-51) These words, by the way, come immediately after Jesus talked about beating slaves. (See Question 33)


http://www.ffrf.org/quiz/bquiz.php

The meaning of being Christian is a very individual apprehension given the picking and choosing of bible passages that goes on, not to mention the endless sects. Contrary to popular myth, there is no coherent authority within Christianity to lead the way to a good life on this earth.


(btw, isn't Satan the ultimate scapegoat in a certain supposedly monotheistic religion?)

[applegrove]

152. He died to take away all the sins of the people. He died so that

people could be reminded they were not without sin and not to think of anything but him when it came time to try and explain bad things.

Took Bush two weeks to think of his sins and decide he was not above it all.

Two weeks.

And he spent that two weeks looking for scapegoats.

He is an ***hole. He is not the kind of christian who follows the main messages of the bible. HE is a scapegoat Christian. He was forced by outrage to take the blame. Then he handed it off immediately to god. He should be ashamed.

[greyl]

158. "Main" messages of the bible? According to who?

"Don't think that I came for peace on earth. I came to start wars."


-Jesus, The Bible

[applegrove]

162. Please. Jesus came to start wars of souls. Not war wars.

[greyl]

174. I think he came to start wars on irrational beliefs.

Too bad the bible doesn't include any direct quotes of jesus.

[applegrove]

164. According to every version of the Christian Bible until the Pentagon

Version.

[greyl]

161. You are correct, I agree with you. Bush abuses Christianity.

But it is because of inherent faults in, and illogical requirements of, Christianity, that Christians can be so easily used and abused by totalitarian authority figures who provide only appeals to emotion and no sound argument.

Any tyrant will abuse the weakest intellectual link in their subjects.

There won't be money under your pillow when you lose faith.
But you will be richer in knowledge.

[beam me up scottie]

24. What insult?

The "get it" part was from your post. :eyes:

I have "problems" with people claiming that bad people are not christians.

It's religious bigotry and it's VERY christian.

[FreedomAngel82]

30. In the end

only God can judge someone and their heart. I can only go by someone's actions and compare it to what Jesus taught. Going by what Jesus taught Bush is no Christian. He doesn't give to the poor, he doesn't offer real peace. He's very greedy and only cares about money. God said you can not worship both money and God.

[applegrove]

33. Oh no - you can dam well judge a PRESIDENT.

[FreedomAngel82]

39. Well sure

And people can judge me too. But in the end will it matter? You might get people to think about supporting him but that's really all. I have no say or opinion in his afterlife.

[applegrove]

45. I judge him to be teaching un-christian values to christians here on

earth. That it is fine to hide behind blaming whoever is in your way. Sociopaths do that. They destroy the people who stand in the way of their power & control. He should be judged every day how he does his job. And where he leads the people of his country. I'm not worried about the afterlife because I'll be part mushroom, part spirit, part DNA in a little African embryo. I am worried about here on earth. And Bush's Christianity is no christianity at all.

[beam me up scottie]

47. Christian values?

:rofl:

You mean how it's been behind most of the bloodshed and misery for most of the last 2000 years ?

Or are you talking about your pretty little white washed version?

[TreasonousBastard]

60. Here we go again...

with that canard that Christianity, or any other religion for that matter, has been behind the bloodshed.

Christianity was, of course, the driving force behind the Visogoths sacking Rome, the Moors moving through Spain, and the Ottomans moving into Hungary. And the Japanese wars with the Chinese and Russians, the Aztecs wiping out their neighbors, and the tribal wars in Africa.

It was, of course, the prime mover for Stalin's purges, Mao's cultural revolution and Germany and Japan's attempt at world domination.

And, naturally, the principal motivator of current Israeli/Arab violence.

Bah, humbug! Any belief system can be perverted when it's handy to be used for gain, and Christianity, as with most of the others, has been ill-used by some as an excuse for war or plunder, even slavery.

[applegrove]

62. Religion does have a history of powerlust. That happens with

any elite group.

[beam me up scottie]

68. Face it, christianity has a long bloody history of domination.

Christianity is a predatory religion.
It claims it is the one true religion, all others are false.
It cannot and will not exist peacefully with other religions.
It seeks to convert all others.

Nice to see DU's apologists haven't given up the ghost.

[applegrove]

128. Well - my experience in Christian Church was not that they were against

other religions. It was not.

Predatory religions are run by predatory people. Like Al Sharpton said "those are the wrong kind of Christians".

[beam me up scottie]

149. You forgot your bumper sticker:

[applegrove]

153. No. I am not a Christian. I follow many values given to us by the

greatest people in the church. The church doesn't have a monopoly on good things.

Bush is a scapegoating-christian. That is what he is and that is all he has done since being given power.

[trotsky]

108. What does that have to do with it?

The question is dealing with so-called "Christian values". Clearly Christianity has certainly not been any better at stopping murder, mayhem, torture, and destruction, and historically been the cause of much of it, so what are "Christian values"? Do you get to decide who's a Christian and who isn't?

[beam me up scottie]

34. That is not the only definition.

Which definition is correct?

This question assumes that there is one and only one correct definition of the term "Christian." However, depending upon your understanding of the nature of truth, all of the above definitions may be "true":
* To conservative Protestants, a Christian is often defined according to their salvation status. Their definition is "true" to them, because it agrees with some of their foundational beliefs: that the Bible is inerrant, that salvation is by grace, and that one must be "born-again" to be saved and avoid eternal punishment in Hell.
* To Roman Catholics, a Christian is often defined according to their baptism status. Their definition is "true" to them, because it agrees with their fundamental beliefs, including their understanding of the Bible, the declarations of many Church Councils, the statements of many popes, and their church's tradition.
* To many in the very early Christian movement, a Christian was defined as a person who was baptized and proclaimed "Jesus is Lord." Their definition was "true" to them because it agreed with their understanding of their religious belief at a time when the Christian Scriptures (New Testament) had not yet been written and assembled.
And so on, with the remaining definitions.

Each group has their own definition of "Christian" which agrees with their own beliefs about the nature of Jesus, God, church tradition, written text, evolved theology, etc. There appears to be no way to compromise on a single definition that is acceptable to all. One apparently cannot call on a higher power to resolve the problem, because there seems to be no way to assess the will of God on such matters. If there were such a method, then different definitions would have been harmonized centuries ago. People would simply have prayed to God and asked Him to define what a Christian is. Then, a consensus would exist today on the true meaning of the word "Christian."

There is no consensus on what the "correct" definition of "Christian" is. There is only a near consensus within individual faith groups. Therefore questions like "Are you a Christian?" or "How many Christians are there in the U.S." are only meaningful:
* Within a single denomination, or among a group of similarly-minded denominations.
* In a public opinion poll where the definition of "Christian" is clearly stated.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_defn3.htm

[applegrove]

41. Christianity is a religion that teaches not to scapegoat others. That

is what Jesus life and his death were about. You must admit that there is a common link to Christianity & Jesus.

Bush is not Christian. And neither is anybody else who uses multiple scapegoats as policy. One after the other. In unending cycle. So that people do not see their own sins. But can blame them on others for everything all the time and - thus - in being perfect & without sin - do no wrong.

[beam me up scottie]

46. When did you get promoted to god?

I thought he was the one who got to decide who is and is not christian.

[applegrove]

49. So BTK was a christian? I will not let people label themselves as

something when they are not following even the basic rule of that group.

[beam me up scottie]

65. You "will not let them" ?

Do christians need your permission now?

Geez, and I was kidding about the god complex...

[Modem Butterfly]

86. Wow, that is so presumptious of you

Do you even realize how arrogant that is?

[trotsky]

110. What is the basic rule?

See, Christians themselves can't even agree on what the basic rule is (and certainly can't agree on its interpretation), so how do you get to decide who is a Christian?

[applegrove]

129. All Bush's actions are unchristian.

[trotsky]

167. All, huh?

Like when he eats lunch?

His Methodist Church has yet to revoke his membership or refuse him communion, so obviously THEY think he's a Christian.

[ladylibertee]

55. No, however, Ye shall know them by their fruits...the fruit I see from

Bush are NOT Christian.I see I am not alone in this.

[beam me up scottie]

66. Really?

The fundies beg to differ.
I suppose they're not christians either.

[Modem Butterfly]

92. The problem is judging the fruits

The righties see Bush as someone who has curtailed abortion, strengthened marriage, helped to spread Xianity and brought freedom to Iraq and Afghanistan. Certainly those are Xian values,right?

[Modem Butterfly]

75. So much for only god being able to judge someone and their heart

He doesn't give to the poor, he doesn't offer real peace. He's very greedy and only cares about money.

:eyes:

[Gnostic]

52. Geez

While I would tend to agree with Beam, it really is just semantics you two are arguing about.

But carry on.

[applegrove]

53. I know. But I believe in a democracy you don't get everything you

want - but you should get what is very important to you.

If we decree that there should be no funding to church groups to do work they do already - or that there should be no room for religion if we have to look at it... aren't we just being like the elites who don't want to pay taxes? We should all be doing our part to reach out and accept our differences. We should all be 'uncomfortable'. Isn't that how democracy works? That you have to learn to love doing your part - whatever it is - so we all get along?

[Gnostic]

59. Democracy?

I hate to bring up the age old retort that we don't live in a "democracy" and never did, but since you've brought up the term so many times...may I remind you we have a republic here, not and democracy.

Churches in my honest opinion should have their tax exemptions and breaks revoked. Especially the ones that are deeply politically involved. I can't count how many just local churches I see almost on a daily basis sitting on prime real estate and grounds that are as well groomed as palaces and trendy architectural designs that rival anything the most generous building developers have to offer. Pastors who build literal real esate empires through incorporating them under the church umbrella or through trusted parishioners, all tax free. I am not really sure what these churches actually put back into the communities they are'nt contributing to in tax dollars, but it sure as hell is'nt to the magnitude of a women's shelter or a free clinic who would more than likely be taxed same as anyone else.

Far as learning to love your part whatever it is and all getting along that really sounds so Marxist to me. It would be a socialist utopia to be sure, but human nature gets inextricably involved and dumps a big can of goo all over your cake.

[applegrove]

61. To get along means socialist Utopia? What - are we not black & white

enough for you hear at the DU?

So now there is only no churches funding - better close a shitload of kitchens. America is not a democracy (in fact it is a Liberal Democracy - but don't tell anyone).

So 1) no getting along and compromising in your liberal democracy
2) no funding of the roles Churches do play every day when they kater to the needy

Somehow I am reminded of that group of 10 Algerian terrorists who had a meeting and decided they were really the only really true Islamic Algerians and their revolution should include killing all Algerians - except for the ten of them.


Why are you any different than a political & powerful religious person who claims that all help to the needy must go through them and none to government programs?

[Gnostic]

123. Nonsense

It was the way you worded your last post. Something to the tune of "everybody should be happy in their part and just get along". That's a fairy tale. It's also the philosophy behind the original Communist doctrines. Fact is, not everyone is always going to be "happy in their part and get along". That's capitalism. It encourages the gaining of more capital, more power, more influence than a person already has, it's the Game. Expecting everyone to just be content "in their part" of your utopian dream is naive.

And how in the world do you relate the suggestion of the discontinuation of church tax exemptions to closing up of commercial kitchens??? Sorry, I don't get it. Could you elaborate?

Also, America is NOT a democracy and especially not a liberal democracy! It's a Republic and always has been! Do some study please. This government and capitalist economy is anything BUT a "liberal democracy".

Churches cater to the needy? I suppose some do, but generally I really don't see many church doors thrown open on a daily basis to feed the hungry. They do however keep many expensive trinkets and statues and furnishings and real estate, especially Catholic churches, that, if sold, could probably feed half the world for 10 years, but I digress. I don't see the tax breaks they get being matched by genuine community service by them. If anything, they simply just take from their communities in the forms of tax breaks, tax free land acquisitions, and passing around the old collection plate to get more cash from it's own parishioners. Take take take, no return....but I do realize those pastors and priests need a new Lexus every year so I'll excuse them.

Helping needy persons through government programs is fine as long as it actually goes to the immediate needy and not to welfarite bums. I am uncomfortable with religion doing it because they demand something in return, either through subconcious effort like forced preaching to prayer to indoctrinations. Like the religious rescue missions who require all who enter and wish to stay awhile to pray and read a bible in group every day as a requirement of their getting help there. Also, I believe strongly that this country was built by men who were self sufficient and wanted the rest of this society to also be....It was not intended to become a welfare state where, as in communism, the citizen is hand-held from cradle to grave. That's Big Government. But, as Lenin said after the October Revolution,.... "“The more universal becomes the very fulfillment of the functions of the state power, the less need is there of this power."

[applegrove]

126. America is a Liberal Democracy. In the U.S. you are so narcissistic

that you call political science "Government". The rest of the world calls it "political science". And you are a Liberal Democracy with a mixed market economy.

Sorry - but you are not special. You are the same as any other Western Democracy.

Nothing special about calling it a Republic.

[Gnostic]

155. Nope

Not a liberal democracy by any means. And as a matter of fact, the founding fathers made it a POINT not to create a "democracy", and for some very good reasons.

But I'm through talking with you until you educate yourself further and start making some sense in your posts.

[applegrove]

163. America is a liberal democracy. You can call it whatever you want -

but like all democratic countries except of cuba - it is a liberal democracy. That is a generic term. If you get to vote - you are in a democracy. You are not in your own little special bubble. You are not special. You may have been the second attempt at democracy (GREECE FIRST AND YES THEY HAD SLAVES TOO & MANY WHO COULD NOT VOTE).

Relax. You are a human being. Same as any other one.

[trotsky]

166. You're confused about political terms.

Your berating of us ignorant and arrogant Americans aside, "liberal democracy" according to this site (http://www.australianpolitics.com/democracy/liberal-democracy.shtml) clearly does not describe the American government, certainly not at this point in history.

[ladylibertee]

54. No, however, Ye shall know them by their fruits...the fruit I see from

Bush is NOT Christian.Thank You very much.

[applegrove]

56. We agree! You cannot spend your life scapegoating others to get

power and be 1) a christian 2) a good person.

Not when what is on the line is the truth. And people's lives.

[beam me up scottie]

70. Being "Christian" means nothing more than being a muslim or scientologist.

It simply means that christianity is the person's religion.

Nothing more.

Christians are no better than anyone else, no matter HOW much you want them to be.

[applegrove]

127. I didn't say they were better than anybody else. I said that Bush is

a horrid example of someone who claims to be a real Christian. And like anybody on the planet - some Christians rock & some do not. Bush is not even not "rocking". His practice of governance is un-christian.

As to if Christians are better than other folk - well I would say some religious folk have faith - and that is a quality like smarts or empathy or bull-headedness. It can be amazing. It is a human quality and people with real 'walk the walk' faith are a sight to behold. Some of these types let you into their lives when you have nothing and never look back. That would be considered ridiculous to a Liberal activist. Nevertheless it is something that a person of faith will do. A liberal activist might choose to "fight the good fight" by changing laws or studying for overseas service in less developed countries. Someone of faith could spend their lives raising money and then living with the very poor and feeding them.

It is a human quality - faith.

Bush doesn't have it. He is a vicious and punitive little scapegoater. His vanity is such that he cannot see the organ that uses him to diminish the lives of those who 1) get in his way 2) won't make him or his friends rich so they are garbage

[genieroze]

106. Him saying he is, is one thing but acting like it is another

John 7:24 You must not judge by the appearance of things but by the reality!

Heb 4:12 The word of God is living and active... it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.

Matthew 15 through 20

15: "Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16: By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17: Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18: A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19: Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20: Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.


The fruits of his actions are rotten to the core, look at Katrina.

[pepperlove]

64. * is no Christian

he just USES the "label" when he needs some votes or go-ahead from that side. It is pitiful and shameful and, as a Christian, I am embarrassed by his stupid antics.

[beam me up scottie]

72. Bush IS a christian and you are not better than non-christians.

Stop trying to pretend your religion makes you superior to us.

[pepperlove]

80. No one is superior to anyone else

some are just better off in eternity ;)

BUT, besides all that, I don't think anyone said a Christian is superior to anyone. Try to remain calm.

[Modem Butterfly]

83. Wow, that's about the most smug, condescending thing I've heard today

And I live in the south...

[jane_pippin]

84. Um...huh?

I don't like getting involved in these religion threads, but I have to comment on this post because it's almost the same thing my mama always told me:

"Remember, nobody's better than you and you're not better than anyone else."

I'd always assumed that thought extended into eternity as kind of the basis/golden rule for the afterlife, should one exist.

I'm not trying to attack you, but it strikes me as a little off to say nobody's superior to anyone (which is of course, a nice thought), and then cancel it out with a "wink wink nudge nudge" when it comes to who gets VIP seats after death. Just sayin.

[pepperlove]

88. You know full well

that was not the concept of that quip.

By virtue of having been "saved" (as per the Bible anyway - believe it or not) the Christian IS better off in eternity than those who do not accept Christ... and face an eternity without His grace...

Oh well, pearls, ya know?

I'll say no more.

[Modem Butterfly]

97. Assuming Zeus doesn't kick your ass for worshipping the wrong god

Or Allah, or Kali, or Woden, or FSM, or The Invisible Pink Unicorn (PBHHH) or any one of an infinite number of gods and goddesses unknown...

In that case, I'm sure you'd gladly trade places with any atheist...

[pepperlove]

100. Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz n/t

[Modem Butterfly]

102. The disconnect is stunning

That's the problem with Pascal's Wager: it works for any religion you care to mention, even Flying Spaghetti Monster. "If I'm wrong about praying to Flying Spaghetti Monster, then I'll be dead and it won't bother me. But if you're wrong about Flying Spaghetti Monster, you'll spend an eternity floating in a hot marinara sauce, dodging meatballs and hoping for just a little parmesan..."

[beam me up scottie]

103. Did the OTHER website do a purge of

their holier than thou hemorrhoids or something?

[Bill McBlueState]

136. sounds like heaven to me

"you'll spend an eternity floating in a hot marinara sauce, dodging meatballs and hoping for just a little parmesan"

mmm, meatballs.

[beam me up scottie]

98. Pearls? Ah, now the truth comes out.

Intolerance is not a family value.

How very christian of you.

[jane_pippin]

99. Look, I said something because I don't "know full well."

It struck me as an odd thing to say and I responded.

Further, I don't believe Christians have a VIP spot in heaven. I don't even know if there is a heaven or not. You can believe whatever you want--your God is your business as far as I'm concerned. I just thought it was a bit odd to make a statement that on it's face seemed like a fair, balanced, sensible point, and then go and turn it on it's head and throw it out the window with that little eternity quip.

I only responded to see if I was reading you correctly--and sadly, it looks like I was.

Pearls eh? I always liked garnets myself, but that's swine for ya, right?

[beam me up scottie]

104. You think that's bad,

get a load of this:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=4826228&mesg_id=4826670

[jane_pippin]

105. Ah. Cute. n/t

[beam me up scottie]

91. I hope you and georgie are very happy spending eternity together.

:rofl:

He, like you, assumes that being christian means you get special consideration for believing in a sky pixie.

And just like all of the "born again" serial killers and other assorted criminals, he will be waiting for you when you get off the elevator.

Nice country club you have there, glad it's so exclusive.
:evilgrin:

[pepperlove]

96. Thanks.

Now back to the subject of the thread.

[beam me up scottie]

101. The subject was why do those bastards think that they are better

than everyone else.

We're still waiting for an explanation from an insider like yourself.

[Modem Butterfly]

76. Boy, if Xians spent 1/10th the energy spent on disavowing one another...

...on cleaning up the messes those folks caused, the world would be a much better place...

[pepperlove]

81. True

of whatever Xtians are....I assume.

[Modem Butterfly]

82. Xians = Christians

It's an old-fashioned abbreviation for Christians.

[pepperlove]

85. Naw

if CHRIST is X'd out, THAT is not a Christian at all.

Any whoooooo... * is not a Christian for we know one another by our LOVE...

Making war, hate, ugly, bloodshed, warmongering, arrogance, lying, deceit etc are NOT characteristics... therefore we KNOW he is not a fellow Christian.

Makes no diff... the world can call us what they please. Changes nuttin, ya know?

Now, where were we?

[Modem Butterfly]

89. X = Chi, the first letter of Christ's name

The convention was largely dropped in 20th century America, but was maintained throughout Europe, and particularly by Greek Orthodox Xians.

Making war, hate, ugly, bloodshed, warmongering, arrogance, lying, deceit etc are NOT characteristics... therefore we KNOW he is not a fellow Christian.

By that logic, there are no real Xians. "For all have sinned..."

[pepperlove]

95. Indeed

however some are now under the blood covenant... and washed... Jesus paid that price.

So, you are right... about some. Wrong about others.

Matters not...

Back to the conversation at hand.

[blonndee]

142. Talk about "arrogance." What might YOU be wrong about, oh

holy one?

[Modem Butterfly]

74. I thought Jesus' sacrifice was to save the animals

You know, all those burnt offerings...

[applegrove]

172. In the first go-around of judaism - somebody's son was replaced

with a animal at the last minute. Then in the second go-around, they said stop with the scape"goating" on the whole. You don't understand something? Looking for someone to blame? Well remember you have sins (you are not perfect) and blame me.


I don't think that God expected it to take: two weeks and various attempts at blaming the victims, local authorities, democrats, bureaucracy, only the bad planning feds didn't interfere with (when they cut money or put a stooge in a position of responsibility), etc. Then bush took partial responsibility. A few days later blamed god. Now his minions are back looking for environmentalists who may have stopped levees from being fixed.

Like I said. It must be the Pentagon version of the bible.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

2. I'd wonder about this person's concept of Christianity

Apparently they never sang the old hymn "In Christ there is no East or West/In Him No South or North"...or they thought that just meant the US.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

4. What a totally useless cliche n/t

[progressivebydesign]

5. They're coming out of the woodwork folks...

My husband's ex sent a check to him yesterday with a beyond cheezy religious scene. I went to check out the site, and it sells checks to "believers". It goes on to say that each time you write a check it goes thru 16 hands, and this is a BIG opportunity to evangelize those that handle your check! One of the checks is.. get this... a BIG wooden cross with two American flags folded over each side of the cross. I looked for checks with George Bush and Jesus together, but the cross and flag was all I could find. These people are completely deluded that somehow this god of theirs actually favors this country. Sounds like some sort of delusion of grandeur, actually.

[applegrove]

Someone lied. That check will see three hands and then a scanner.

But hey - nothing wrong with sending out love. As long as it is the love portion of god you mean to send.

I do doubt that bank scanners make a point of picking up the background. That would be considered a whole pile of "noise" to their computers.

[mwb970]

11. A cross with flags hanging on it!

That's really something. What next? Let's replace the 50 stars in the flag with a big white cross.

I read somwhere that someone who was in Tokyo around Christmas time saw a Santa Claus crucifix in a store. At least that's an honest mistake!

[FreedomAngel82]

32. Oh good grief

On this other message board I was having a discussion with someone and they mentioned how now days Christianity is very mainstream and it will someday go away as far as being very very mainstream like now. I think so too. It's like in the 90's it was cheesy pop music and boybands and stuff. Now you hardly see them. I also think of it as big hair in the 80's. Right now being a Christian is very "in" so to speak. It'll be interesting in a few years to see how many of these people still believe in Jesus' true message or the cherry picking.

[expatriate]

58. America loves fads, and I think you're right.

There have been fads in childraising, dating techniques, fashions, personal philosophies, and yes, in religions. During the 1960's and 1970's, many people jumped into the fad of trying to be Buddhists or Hindus. It usually didn't last long.

I am hoping that the American obsession with fundamentalist Christianity is going to turn out to be another one of those fads, but it seems to be quite deep seated. Right now, of course, there is a lot of support for it, considering all the religious television shows and openly religious politicians, "faith based" this and that.

I got worried when shows like "Touched By An Angel" started to go mainstream. Suddenly it was okay to say that you saw and heard beings that were invisible. Used to be, that got you a quick trip to the mental hospital - now you are "in".

Let's hope it passes soon.

[ktowntennesseedem]

7. I'd love to ask the driver a few questions.

I guarantee that he/she believes America is a "Christian" nation, that separation of church & state is a myth (or worse, a Communist plot to destroy America!), and that all our country's current woes could be solved if we would just put prayer & bible-reading back in schools, outlaw abortion, homosexuals, alcohol and dancing, and declare their protestant denomination the official religion of the USA.

As a Christian myself, I am very offended by the implications of this particular bumper sticker. First of all, my faith is far to rich to be condensed to a 3"x12" placard on the back of my car. And secondly, while they have the right to believe as they wish, just as I do, it is very bothersome that they assume to speak for me and all other people of faith. That I have nothing in common with them should come as quite a shock to them.

[FreedomAngel82]

37. Oh yes

I agree. I was in an argument a few days ago with a few people on whether or not this country was a Christian nation. I just brought up some things in the Bible, some quotes that the founding fathers have said and showed how the first amendment goes against what the Bible says and those Ten Commandments every one of them wants up. I also tell how God gave us freewill and that includes choices and consequences and the freewill to believe or not. God loved me enough he trusted me and wanted me to make my own decisions, so why don't these people? And also now in my college class at my church my church's preacher is teaching and about two weeks ago he made a very good point. A lot of people like to blame God when things go wrong or something like that but instead why not pray for wisdom to fix things? God isn't like a fairy godmother or something. Too many people like to think that. We are God's hands and feet and ears and mouth. He works through us, so we should pray for the wisdom to fix solutions. Instead of trying to overturn a law that protects women (Roe v Wade) figure out how to reduce abortions that way. Last year I googled why women have abortions and found Planned Parenthood's website and they had top ten reason's. Every reason except for three could be fixed by society's help and by voting smart and electing people who know how to do a balanced budget. I also think there should be a center where women can go that is non-partisan and has nothing to do with faith where women can go and talk to people about their problems because a lot of reason's, according to Planned Parenthood, deal with women's emotions. There are just so many things that we can do. Under Clinton abortions were low and under Bush from 2000-2004 abortion raised 30%. With gay people I tell them how it has to do with the law and nothing with religion. So many of these rightwingers think if they don't have this law or don't have that law people will change and it will make things different. They're wrong. People aren't going to believe like they do just because they don't have this law or that law. Gay people have been around for centuries and they're not going away. They also have to remember that this world isn't our home. Jesus told us to place our treasures up in Heaven. I always ask them: what's more important to you? What you put here on Earth or in Heaven? Religion is a very very personal spiritual relationship with the being you believe in. And something else I always ask them is: what are you going to tell an athiest? I had one person say someday they'll realize they're wrong. Of course I laughed and said "then you don't know an athiest". That was really the only time I can recall getting any sort of response on that question.

[applegrove]

51. Some people are religious. It is a human thing. Unique to humans.

Some people are. They lead great lives. They use their devotion to give them strength. Some people walk the walk and do amazing things with their lives. Some people do.

Just because you are religious doesn't make you a bad person. Faith can be an asset like empathy or smarts - same as any other condition. But to act like a sociopath and call yourself a Christian? No - that makes you un-Christan.

When the oil all goes and there isn't a cheap replacement - time will be tougher in the world. And the people who have true & devoted religion - may find strength in that. Just like many did when it was normal to loose half your kids in their childhood.

The thing we hate is bad religion. And bad christians. We talk of salem and the inquisition. But there were good things. There are people all over the world bringing food to kids and places for women to live - and these people live their lives that way. Helping others. And it has been true of christianity and other religions for eons. When the elites ran Europe and the middle class was decimated - who do you think tried to feed the poor or tend to the sick? Millions and millions of people who were religious.

Bush is a blight on all the good religious people of the planet. He is un-teaching the basic messages that made it into our democracies. He is also enabling the elites & neocons to use christianity as a form of hierarchical control over voters.

[dwckabal]

146. I LOVE Bad Religion!

Bad Religion



The Cornell Evolution Project

[greyl]

160. Religion is a blight on all the good people of the planet. nt

[ktowntennesseedem]

125. A women once acked me how I could support women ministers & deacons

She knew I belonged to a progressive congregation (the only one in a very conservative small town), a church full of liberals and heretics since we currently had women deacons and at times in its history women ministers. Her question to me was "How can that be, because Paul said women can't have authority over men." (They all take the Apostle Paul WAY too seriously!) I quickly replied, "In my church, our only authority is Christ, and we are equally His servants." That ALMOST shut her up (I think it made her head hurt), but then she came back with the classic, "But Paul said deacons must be the husband of one wife, something a woman can't do." (They also think that excludes single and divorced men, since they are the husband of zero wives.) So I replied to her, "well in my church the women deacons can have as many husbands as they want!"

THAT shut her up for good!!!

[applegrove]

144. Many churches recognize that part of the bible was written by the

hand of man and within it was mixed up the culture of the time. We don't believe in slavery. And the Church people are some of the most vocal opponents of slavery - as it exits today. Quakers were some of the most vocal opponents of slavery at the start of the US.

[beam me up scottie]

168. " part of the bible was written by the hand of man"

Who wrote the rest of it?

[applegrove]

171. Oh the believers believe much was the word of Jesus et al. Collected

and recounted by apostles & other humans.

[Arugula Latte]

8. Remember that Republican nimrod who said: "If English was good

enough for Jesus to speak, it's good enough for me!"

It was in the context of some English-only proposition ...

:rofl: what a "Hugh Moran."

[FreedomAngel82]

42. LOL!

Oh brother. How funny.

[genieroze]

111. I thought he spoke Aramaic. What was the nimrods name? lol

[Arugula Latte]

112. Yes, Aramic.

I can't recall the details and the guy's name, but I do remember that quote!

[The_Casual_Observer]

12. Psychosis/ hysteria made worse by 9/11 and the mis-doings of bush

It makes some people cling to these "Jesus loves America" and "God blesses America" illogical nutty stuff.

[kestrel91316]

15. "We're #1! We're #1! USA! USA! USA! Rah, rah, sis boom bah!!!!

We got Jesus because we are the BEST, most holy people in the WHOLE WORLD!!!!!!!!!!!!

(hangs head and weeps for her country)

[expatriate]

16. Amazing.

God's gift to America - someone who cannot be historically proven to have ever existed in the first place. Gee, thanks, God.

[FM Arouet666]

18. The cult of jesus is for America and only America

Or so it would seem. I am amazed by our species ability to segregate into groups and assume a superior stance based on the most trivial of characteristics. Blue eyes and blond hair, tall thin "Caucasian-like" africans, tattoos, dialects, religion, or some other seemingly insignificant trait. I guess this is the next iteration of the same old phenomena, the Übermensch of the modern world is the christian, and the rest of us are damned.

[ladylibertee]

23. Bottom line: In my opinion, the Jesus this country claims to believe

in and Worship, is not the jesus in the Bible.Sure, they think it is, but looking at this nations history of pure ungodliness, slavery, war and treatment of fellow citizens. this country may be one nation under God.I do not believe it is the true living god. I believe it is one they created themselves and my Bible calls that Idolatry. This is why I do not care when people tell me that to be a Christian, is to be a Republican or Conservative.I do not know the God they think they are serving.

[FreedomAngel82]

44. Exactly

And I also forgot the Salem "witch" trials. People were hanged, burnt, jailed, beheaded, drowned etc. because some believed they were witches and weren't Christian enough. Doesn't sound very Christ-like does it? Racism, sexism etc. But there's plenty in the Bible to show how we're not a Christian country. If the church had it's way I, as a woman, wouldn't be allowed to vote, go to school, have a job, be a CEO, be a teacher, run for public office. Sandra O'Conner would've never been on the Supreme Court, Nancy Pelsoi wouldn't be the house minority leader, Geraldine Ferraro wouldn't have been the 1984 vp nominee for the democratic party and Abraham Lincoln wouldn't have free'd the slaves and Lyndon Johnson wouldn't have signed the 1965 voting rights act. We wouldn't have had any wars since Jesus was the Prince of Peace and said "turn the other cheek" and "love thy neighbor". The republicans wouldn't be giving the top one percent tax cuts. So whoopsie! There certainly wouldn't have been a first amendment either or secret societies and cults and George Washington wouldn't have sworn in as president on a Masonic Bible. Oh and also don't forget in 1965 when Johnson signed the voting rights bill he said "We're (democrats) going to lose the south for a long time." Oopsie. And what is the south considered? The Bible belt.

[ladylibertee]

57. Yeah, I forgot about all that too.DITTO !

[applegrove]

50. I agree. The fundies are not always following christianity.

[beam me up scottie]

109. Sure they are.

They follow it more closely than most liberal christians do.

Or is it okay with god if you support abortion on demand?

WWJD indeed.

[applegrove]

154. Abortion is a terrible thing. Anyone who supports great birth control

& education for kids and choice and all sorts of way for kids to get to know themselves and for women to control their bodies - once you are for that - then you can be against abortion if you want to. Your choice.

I will not tolerate a group that insists poor women have to not use birth control and then tells them they are against abortion.

Birth control & access to it cut the incidence of abortion down hugely.

[beam me up scottie]

169. So is Jesus okay with killing unborn babies or not?

Simple enough question for someone who can decide who is and is not a christian.

[applegrove]

170. Choice. But if the catholic church wants to save babies they should

get with birth control. Until then - they stand on nothing.

[Sparkman]

77. CHALLANGE....Please advise if you know of a Church with Compassion for all

I'm in the Anaheim, Calif. Area....

[0rganism]

122. Has there been a deity whose words were ignored by more of His followers?

Somehow, I doubt I will ever read this headline: "Conservative Christians demand public schools post the Beatitudes in classrooms."

And raising his eyes toward his disciples he said:
"Blessed are you who are poor, for the kingdom of God is yours.
Blessed are you who are now hungry, for you will be satisfied.
Blessed are you who are now weeping, for you will laugh.
Blessed are you when people hate you, and when they exclude and insult you, and denounce your name as evil on account of the Son of Man. Rejoice and leap for joy on that day! Behold, your reward will be great in heaven. For their ancestors treated the prophets in the same way.
But woe to you who are rich, for you have received your consolation.
But woe to you who are filled now, for you will be hungry.
Woe to you who laugh now, for you will grieve and weep.
Woe to you when all speak well of you, for their ancestors treated the false prophets in this way."
(Luke 6:20-26)

[Warren DeMontague]

25. Then why the FUCK didn't he send him to the Navajo? nt

[Bernardo de La Paz]

26. Being Born Again doesn't give you twice as many rights.

[FreedomAngel82]

27. It really baffles me too

Whenever I talk to someone like that and they talk about the pledge and money having God I remind them how God is above time and space and I'm sure he (or it) doesn't care about such nonsense stuff. And why do they think we're so much better than Canada? Britian? Australia? If these people think we're better than those countries better think again. Lying, cheating, stealing, racism, sexism, etc.

[Gnostic]

35. Same mentality

"What makes these bastards think that no matter what America is on the side of the angels and God favors them above all?">>

It's the exact same mentality that is at the very base of religion itself. To clarify, all religions must have the basic concepts of "good" versus "evil" for them to even exist and keep a following, for without that base premise it would cease to have a function, which basically was to keep the masses in check but I digress. Anyway, almost any religious person you may have the opportunity to ask will tell you the same things....that they are on the path to glory and god and others are'nt. That is what they believe. That is what they HAVE to believe, because they posess such small self esteems and insecurities that it compels them to think of themselves as "chosen ones" and "saved" while others will burn in the wrath of "hell". The Christians believe it, the Muslims believe it. So it is just natural for them as a group to also associate their primitive nationalistic "patriotic" groupthink with it, to tie it in with the land they find themselves on. Then it all becomes pat and neat you see. It truly becomes an "us versus them" mentality. Oh, and all the other holier than thou bullcrap. It makes for amusing entertainment though, until people with such elementary superstitions actually begin to grasp the reins of power in this country.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

63. Hmmm...God's gift to Bush?

1 Cor 5:11

11 But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.

NIV

[ladylibertee]

157. That right there is enough to divide the enitre Rebublican Party

[ProdigalJunkMail]

173. sure should keep them from associating with one another

be hard to hold the party together that way... :-)

subjectProdigal

[Tsiyu]

67. This is their fervent hope

That they can be racist, judgemental, greedy, ignorant fucks and Jeebus approves.

I doubt they believe the shit they spew out of their mouths and plaster all over their gas guzzlers. They only HOPE it's true, and they cling to that hope in spite of all the truth in the world.

[info being]

79. You said, "what makes these bastards think..."

That's just it, they don't. You're trying to think about something that was never thought of to begin with...and thus you are only confusing yourself.

[elehhhhna]

87. "God So Loved the World, That He Gave His Only Begotten Son"

Nope. Don't see "America" in that sentence.

[elehhhhna]

90. The bumper sticker was just referring to Blonde Jesus (tm).

[journalist3072]

93. Jesus was God's gift to the WORLD, not only to America. eom

[genieroze]

94. mental illness?

[StellaBlue]

113. American exceptionalism

I am finding that, after four years living abroad, this is the most irritating thing about the USA.

WAKE UP AMERICA - THE WORLD IS NOT JEALOUS OF US!!!

[pitohui]

114. some gift, jesus never even heard of america

that's ridiculous on the face of it & it's becoming quite obvious by this time of century that jesus couldn't care less abt us

[onager]

115. "If the English language was good enough for Jesus Christ..."

The quote is attributed to Miriam "Ma" Ferguson, Governor of Texas...there's a big surprise...in 1924. She said it during a debate on bilingual education.

This is probably the original quote, though several versions are floating around:

"If English was good enough for Jesus Christ, it ought to be good enough for the children of Texas."


­

[onager]

116. And when Jesus came to America...

...what did he do? Well, at least, what did his self-appointed representatives do?

And let's not hear from any of those grumpy ol' revisionist atheists. How about a report from the first Dominican priest in the New World, Bartolemeo de la Casas:

"Such inhumanities and barbarisms were committed in my sight as no age can parallel..."

The Spanish cut off the legs of children who ran from them. They poured people full of boiling soap. They made bets as to who, with one sweep of his sword, could cut a person in half. They loosed dogs that "devoured an Indian like a hog, at first sight, in less than a moment."

They used nursing infants for dog food.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/genocide5.htm

What happened on La Isla Española in significant ways has no precedent in world history...The natives were given to Spanish “care,” and taught good Christian principles while they were being worked to death, if they were not beheaded on a whim...

That is a rich irony, as Columbus immediately began calling himself the “Christ-bearer,” though his efforts did not convert any natives.

http://globalization.icaap.org/content/v1.1/wadefrazier.html

[beam me up scottie]

119. Nice.

Oh, I suppose they weren't "real" christians either.

Because "real" christians are good and pure, according to the experts.

Funny, the modern day version of christian elitism isn't much different than the type that allowed those christians to torture and kill the natives.

Thinking that they are morally superior to non-christians leaves the door wide open.

[sakabatou]

117. "Tell God I want to return his gift."

Heard over friend when I told them this.

[BiggJawn]

120. Didn't know he was into gag gifts.....

:eyes:

[Mutley]

121. I'm sure the fact that Jesus was here LONG before America...

means nothing to these people. :eyes:

[Pobeka]

124. It justifies their crimes in their own minds.

They are in some deep shit if God exists with laws as outlined in the bible.

[TroubleMan]

135. And what's really sad is that "Jesus Christ" isn't even his name.

Christ means "one who is anointed," and Jesus is a mistranslation of a mistranslation.

His real name was Yeshua ben Yosef in Hebrew or Yeshua bar Yosef in Aramaic. He most likely would have been more commonly called Yeshua ben Yosef.

I bet that so called "devout Christian" doesn't even know the real name of the person he worships or what "Jesus" really said or stood for. They just believe the propaganda about him.

[drfresh]

147. Oh yay, another thread on Christianity vs whatever

I think I'll dive in. Not.

* I learned to spell

[LittleClarkie]

156. News flash: Jesus was one of dem damn darkies

And he wasn't born anywhere near America.

[Moderator]

175. Locking...

This thread has run its course.