I am done...Just speechless

[Debau2005]

I can not believe that I live in a country that has in the past stood by the motto,
"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed, to me:
I lift my lamp beside the golden door."

But now our motto seems to be:
"The Department of Homeland Security recently announced that information provided by illegal immigrants seeking federal aid could be used against them later in deportation proceedings."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9403169/

[TallahasseeGrannie]

1. A disturbing image

"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed, to me:




So says the Superdome.

[cwydro]

4. well said

what a shame...this country has become a sham under this *.

[RepublicanElephant]

2. Well...

that's dubya's immigration policy:

if you're illegal, don't ask for ANYTHING or you will be deported.

otherwise, just shut-up and work for slave wages.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

7. Correct me

I thought W takes a lot of grief from the RW because his immigration policy is too lenient?

But I don't follow it very closely. Straighten me out if I need it!

[Dark]

24. He wants to give them amnesty, but not citizenship.

The RW wants to deport a lot of the illegal immigrants. Bush wants them to stay and work for slave wages.

Their problem isn't that it's too lenient, it's that it's too corrupt and takes jobs away from Americans.

We do need to stop illegal immigration. And how do we do that? Keep businesses from hiring them!

That's the only way to stop them. Nothing else will work.

[Squatch]

3. Allow free immigration into this country without the hassles.

"Illegal immigrant" should not even be in our vocabulary.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

5. I don't agree with that at all.

This isn't the same country it used to be. We're not in a position to take in an indefinite amount of people any longer. I feel we need to crack down on illegal immigration (which is the one area of national security that we can and should be doing something about, but aren't), and severely ramp up on legal immigration.

[RaleighNCDUer]

17. You are aware, of course, that people were saying exactly that

a hundred years ago when our grandfathers and great grandfathers were part of the great migration. If we had liberal immigration laws the only illegals would be those who could not qualify -- basically, criminals. Most 'illegals' are simply people who are perfectly capable of joining American society and contributing to it, but are turned away because they are too dark and not protestant enough. The come across as illegals, making them exploitable by the very people who insist on the quotas that keep them out.

Know what? This never was the country it used to be.

[Xithras]

20. Population growth in the U.S. is a huge problem.

Sprawl is destroying our wild lands and agriculture, and population growth induces sprawl. Did you see that recent Mexican poll where HALF of their population said they'd move here if they could? If you open the borders, that's 50 MILLION additional people who'd be moving to this country. Where do you house them? Where do you employ them? Do you have any idea what that kind of labor influx will do to wages?

Albert Einstein did a brilliant writeup on American prosperity once, and he discovered that the root of the middle class rise in America could directly be tied to the scarcity of labor. Companies HAD to pay more because if they didn't, they'd have no workers and would go out of business. When you inject tens of millions of new workers into a country, you undermine that scarcity and allow employers to slash wages. It's already happened to the agriculture and construction industries, which are effectively dominated by illegals at this point, and it promises to happen to other manufacturing sectors if legal immigration were thrown wide open to all comers.

I hate to mention this, but it would also be the death of our party. For the most part, Mexican-Americans only side with the Democratic party because we tend to be softer on immigration and more generous with social programs. The reality, though, is that many of them have political views that are vastly different than those held by our party. It's inevitable that, if their numbers become large enough, they'll either take over the party or split off into a new one. The conservative Catholic viewpoint held by most poorer immigrants is just too different from our own to stand over the long term. When you factor in groups like La Raza who are ALREADY advocating Mexican-American political independence, you end up with a marriage that can't last.

When you take away that voting base AND realize that American labor unions are going to be crippled by the destruction of the manufacturing wage scales, you'll see the recipe for the destruction of the Democratic party.

Not that the DLC cares or that anyone will listen...

[Occulus]

28. Sprawl is further exacerbated by the refusal to build UP.

We should be willing to devote money into building large, tall buildings- I'm thinking of something like, but much smaller than, the "arcology" concept found in that old sim standby, SimCity 2000.

Hey, it's not an intrinsically bad idea at all, if built on a smaller scale: the concept is basically a huge building holding several thousand or tens of thousands of people, which posesses its own police, fire, educational, and health facilities. It could even have a big park on the roof.

In the event of a bioterror or chemical attack, the security system could put the whole building into lockdown, seal all affected passages, and in the end possibly reduce the effectiveness of those types of terrorism.

But we need to be willing to build up and build big to eliminate sprawl- and we need to avoid use of the term "project" at any and all costs.

[adaada]

34. Just an aside, but the term "arcology" was actually coined by Paulo Soleri

a visionary University of Arizona architect who has spent the last 30 years building an experimental, car-free, ecologically-sound (green) community in the Arizona desert. No kidding.

If you'd like to read more: http://www.arcosanti.org/project/project/main.html

[rasputin1952]

22. Key word is "illegal". The vast majority od immigrants were, and are ...

legal. I come from immigrant stock, as do most others in this nation.
But the case be told, "illegal" was not in anyone's mind when they came here.

My father's side of the family came here in the 1700's. My mothers side of the family before them. My stepfather was First Generation; at the age of 5 he arrived on Ellis Island w/his parents. There is a brick w/their names on it in the wall.

While I don't think people should be denied access to this country for a variety of reasons, I am in favor of legal entry; and illegal just doesn't cut it with me.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

26. What I would want is pretty much what you describe.

I would put a liberal quota as to how many eligible people we let in, but it would high enough such that far more people are allowed to immigrate than are denied.

However, the very exploitation you refer to is also one of the biggest reasons why we need to clamp down on illegal immigration and ramp up legal immigration. Just look at what's happening after Katrina - illegal immigrants risk being deported if they ask for the simplest of survival assistance. That's a horrible situation so far as I'm concerned, one that would not be nearly that much problem if we took my proposal. Beyond Katrina, you have people who accept wages well below minimum wage for horrible work simply because they are illegal immigrants. And if their boss doesn't pay them at all? Well, they've got no recourse for that either. The problems go on and on with illegal immigration. It's a human rights issue.

[pitohui]

10. so you destroy the working man w.out a glance backward

what a hateful thing to say

so ppl who are here LEGALLY who have committed no crime must go jobless because we cannot compete w. those who are imported to work at below the legal wages, often living in temporary housing & working as little more than slaves

there are hundreds of thousands if not a million of us displaced at the moment

HOUSE US, GIVE US THE JOBS

instead you would rather another gold-rush of illegals, the money going to their owners since the illegal worker himself is paid little more than a slave

this is insanity

no wonder blue collar workers no longer vote democratic if the idea is to take away their job & give it to the new class of slave laborers

no country will stand if it throws opens its arms to the invader, only a very naive or a very greedy person can argue for open borders at this time of century

ask the native americans how well that worked out for them

in a time of crisis, to use your wish to have a cheap maid or lawn-care crew as an excuse to further erode wages and steal jobs to keep labor costs low for the damned GOP...that is just breath-taking in its cruelty & ignorance

let the "cheap labor" party advocate for getting rid of the term "illegal immigration" but when they do, hold them honest, and call it what it is -- indentured servitude


did you know that construction used to be a good job & a construction man could support a family & own a home, but i guess you don't care, you push paper or something i suppose, may a college student in bangalore take yr job & teach you some damn sense!

[Debau2005]

13. I must have not stated my point clearly,

I am not for illegal immigration, however I am not for allowing ANYONE to starve in this country. At a time such as this disaster, assistance should be forthcoming to everyone affected, no matter their color, creed, country of origin, legal status, etc.

To me this is not an issue of legal vs illegal this is an issue of the government once again allowing the poorest among us to slip through the cracks.

[RaleighNCDUer]

19. Please put down the koolaid.

The reason the illegal immigrants can undercut the economy is BECAUSE they are illegal - it makes them exploitable. If the immigration laws were more liberal the incoming workers would compete at legal wage levels. They would not be forced to work for minimum or less at what were once good paying jobs because they would not face deportation, which includes breaking up of families as well as job loss, if they ask for a living wage.

You are quite right - illegal immigration IS indentured servitude. It is the ILLEGAL that makes it possible. Legal immigrants cannot be exploited. Open legal immigration would result in a wealthier work force, stronger unions and job security for both natives and immigrants. Do you really think that the Mexican kid out there picking strawberries at $1.50/hr can really survive on that pay? Do you think he doesn't know that he's being exploited? He is not the criminal - the criminal is the person who is using him, and using his status against him. If you lost your construction job to an illegal from Honduras, it is the contractor's fault, not the immigrant's. And the fault of the "right to work" laws that keep unions from protecting you against the contractor's exploitation.

It is us against them, but the 'them' is the owner class that perpetuates the system, not the people they are exploiting.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

33. "Illegal" immigrants are workers.

But, blaming the victims is much easier than blaming the bosses.

[Squatch]

35. Immigrants aren't taking anything from Americans

Companies like WalMart are giving jobs to them illegally. If WalMart paid a company to hire immigrants to do the job over Americans then there's probably a good reason for it. I'm sick and tired of lazy gluttonous Americans bitching about immigrants "taking" our jobs. It's not like they can literally come to America, ambush us in the parking lot and take our jobs.



Maddox

[TahitiNut]

11. Sure ... as soon as French Polynesia allows the same.

:eyes: Dumbest. Idea. Ever.

[kestrel91316]

14. I want FRANCE to allow unlimited immigration so I can go live there.

[TahitiNut]

16. Or Canada, or Australia, or New Zealand, or Denmark, or ...

The fact of the matter is that immigration barriers exist worldwide, usually proportional to the standard of living in the nation.

What're the restrictions on Mexican immigration? What does it take to emigrate to Mexico - become a permanent resident and own property there legally? I suspect that this gets lost in the heated rhetoric on this issue.

[Maraya1969]

6. That quote is on the Statue of Liberty - was there to welcome the

most of our ancestors. I don't understand it either.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

8. And it meant something

back then, too.

I hope it will mean something again someday.

[Maraya1969]

9. Oh this is so sad! I followed your link.

By Darryl Fears
The Washington Post
Updated: 11:07 p.m. ET Sept. 19, 2005

BATON ROUGE, La. - The man who stood with his head bowed outside a cheap motel room here said his name is Almicar of Guatemala. He crept across the Mexican border into the United States a few years ago and since that time has found work as a painter in New Orleans.

But several weeks ago, Hurricane Katrina turned his world upside down along with everyone else's. Almicar, who gave only his first name for fear of being deported, said his situation is worse because he is an illegal immigrant. Since the storm hit, he has watched his neighbors at the motel call the Federal Emergency Management Agency to get money he will never see and food stamps that are forbidden to his family of five, and to seek jobs at the Social Security office, where he dares not show his face.

Almicar didn't speak a word of English, but his body language said it all. Eyes down, arms folded, back slumped, he had the visage of a defeated man.

"I'm afraid," he said. His family's "situation is getting harder and harder. You don't know what to think, starting from zero again."

[pitohui]

12. yes it's sad but you know what

the family whose man is now in prison because he could get no legal job that supports a family, that's sad too

this man is here illegally, has been for many yrs, at a time of huge unemployment in louisiana

did you know that being a painter used to be a good job before the illegals came? that a man could support a family?

did you know these peeps are virtual slaves paid less than legal wages w. most of the profits from their labor pocketed by the contractor

when you promote illegal immigration, you are in many cases promoting slavery

[Maraya1969]

15. It is illegal immigration now because they won't give any green cards!

You have to blow someone high up in the government now to get a green card. Or you have to be very wealthy or have a needed skill. We should accept people because they can do a certain job and not accept others because they have not had the opportunity to go through college.

[Maraya1969]

18. OK I understand what you are saying. But it really seems as if

the illegal immigrant in Florida are picking tomatoes for slave wages. Painters and construction workers still receive a good wage. At least it seems that way because they support families here.

Maybe it is different in LA. And it is going to be worse since * dropped the prevailing wage thing, (whatever you call it). That could have provided plenty of good paying jobs for people who have lost theirs from the hurricane.

[nadinbrzezinski]

30. Ok how about having the companies that HIRE them

fined, per the standards written in the law, that is NOT enforced as it may hurt corporate profits?

That is truly the solution, but seems nobody wants to do that, why I have to wonder.

[dean_dem]

21. I think these days...

"befuddled masses" might be a little more appropriate.

[converted_democrat]

23. Aahhhhh, now I understand why that immigration memo to Rove was

accidentally "leaked." It's all coming together now.

[stevietheman]

25. I don't mind the illegal immigrants being fed and sheltered for a...

short time, but if they are here illegally, then deportation should be done, albeit in the most humane way possible. That's the law. They have no right to be in this country.

[nadinbrzezinski]

29. I have a simpler solution

fine the companies that hire them what is it, one thousand a head? that is the law... you know how fast that will stop ilegals from coming across? Mostly no more jobs man, as nobody will even attempt to hire them...

[stevietheman]

31. Yes, the law should be enforced. Successive administrations of both...

parties have failed to *really* go after the businesses who hire the illegals. This has got to change. A nation should take care of its own first and foremost.

[daninthemoon]

27. I wondered if this was going to happen. Surprise, surprise.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

32. "Give me your wealthy, preferably white, celebrities with rich friends."

We don't need no tired, poor, disabled, dark-skinned folks. Let 'em stay in their own countries. The ones we're using for cheap labor.