Female chauvinist pigs?

[FarLeftRage]

Not really sure where this belongs, so feel free to move it mods.

I found this on another Leftist website and it made me a bit curious to read it...

Our popular culture, she argues, has embraced a model of female sexuality that comes straight from pornography and strip clubs, in which the woman's job is to excite and titillate - to perform for men. According to Levy, women have bought into this by altering their bodies surgically and cosmetically, and - more insidiously - by confusing sexual power with power, so that embracing this caricaturish form of sexuality becomes, in their minds, a perverse kind of feminism.

Levy's evidence is unsettling: that a number of female Olympic athletes saw fit to pose nude for Playboy before the 2004 games in Athens, for instance, or that Crunch gyms in several American cities offer "Cardio Striptease" classes, where women work out in bras and thongs. Much of the reporting is Levy's own (she writes for New York magazine), and her forays into a "Girls Gone Wild" shoot, several parties hosted by the neo-feminist group Cake, the lesbian subculture of New York and San Francisco, and the private lives of sexually active teenagers make for smart, acerbic reading. She finds a similar geometry in all of the worlds she visits. Women are preoccupied with a "girly-girl" aesthetic originating with strippers and porn stars, but they tend to view these images from a crude, objectifying perspective that has traditionally been male.

"...a lot of stuff that's being repackaged as "empowering" when it's just degradging. But I really hesitate to label all female exhibitionist behavior as degrading. Some can actually be empowering. It's the problematic area, but I think that it can be and should be possible to relish the effect you have sexually on someone without it compromising your identity or anything like that. I also dislike the idea that girly-girl is inherently degrading--if a woman is beautiful and sexually appealing, that should be a good thing."


"...how demeaning it can be and how women find themselves adopting that attitude. But I think it's also perfectly natural that women put on a degrading, objectifying point of view, because it's not a male way of thinking so much as it's the way that people in the patriarchy are supposed to view women. There's a subtle difference, but I think it's important,..."

"...In fact, from my own experience, raunchiness can be a great way to subvert male dominance, especially if you turn that shit back on men and objectify them a little. But I would definitely agree that most women don't go that route,..."


More at

http://www.pandagon.net/archives/2005/09/female_chauvini.html#comments


Thoughts, anyone?

[Skittles]

1. I am apparently in the minority opinion on this site

that stripping/pole dancing are NOT "EMPOWERING" to women - it's sleazy and degrading

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

4. It's sad but true

that for many women, that kind of job is the only kind they find that pays well. I can't see that it does much for a woman's core self-image.

The article does seem to point out that many many people's self image is built up entirely around physical appearance and having money. This sort of attitude plays into the hands of those who wish to exploit, imho, mainly because it is soooo easy to manipulate them.

[TorchTheWitch]

81. so easy to manipulate who?

If you mean strippers, honey, I and every stripper I know are experts at manipulating men... both in and out of the clubs. Come to think of it, that's the biggest reason that so many customers get pissed off at us... when they finally come to the realization that they think they've been had. Oh, and the best of us can manipulate circles around the female customers, too... they're just a bit of a challenge.

There isn't a man that comes near me that I don't manipulate on some level... I've been shamelessly manipulating my dad and my brothers since I was in diapers. I don't know any woman anywhere that hasn't used her "femaleness" on some level to get what she wants.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

83. thank you for your insights

my world and worldview is very different from yours, and it is interesting to hear about how other people live.

[lildreamer316]

104. Right there with you hon.

Been in the biz for 11 years.........feel free to chat whenever!

[meow2u3]

5. I agree wholeheartedly with you

These exhibitionist girly-girls who call themselves feminists because they stoop to the level of chauvinistic men are giving feminism, and womanhood itself, a bad name.

These women are playing right into the hands of abusive men, giving them a license to see us females as nothing but sexual playthings. Nothing empowering about it--just repackaged sexism!

[FarLeftRage]

10. I'm a guy and I agree with you....

My question is why do they think like that?

Are they brainwashed?

Or are they ignorant?

[Skittles]

11. I am not sure what it is

but I find it very, very disturbing

[pitohui]

31. they just need the bucks

some strippers are kinda stupid or uneducated but some are v. bright but have no other real options

equal pay for equal work is honored more in the breach than in the reality in this country

there just aren't that many good jobs around, & esp. not for women

so what do you do

[MsTryska]

56. well in my opinion.....

the fact of the matter is, give a guy a boner, and he's temporarily retarded.


then you take advantage of the situation. :p


(i'm only half-joking - i honestly think this is what many women who "use their sexuality" think - at least the strippers i've known. Both male and female, both dancing for men)

[Proud2BAmurkin]

12. It's not sleazy and degrading unless sex is sleazy and degrading

If it turns most men on and the woman doing it has the intent to turn men on then it's degrading why???

[Maple]

13. No one has to work

at turning men on. And it takes no special talent.

Women did it in bearskins, in chastity belts, in convent habits, and in Victorian floor length gowns while wearing veils.

Poles never had to be involved.

[boston bean]

16. Thanks, you just gave me a good laugh tonite. I don't mean

that in bad way.

You are of course, absolutely correct.

[SpiralHawk]

22. "No one has to work at turning men on." LOL

One of the Eternal Verities.

When its work -- strip clubs,and porno and such -- it just exploitation. Of both women and men. Somebody somewhere is merrily ca-chinging away at the cash register.

[mondo joe]

29. The cash register is ch-chinged by men (mostly) and women.

There's not a machine out there somewhere exploiting people - people exploit others people and people choose to be exploited.

All commerce is exploitation - generally consensual.

[mirror wall]

114. Yes. I'm glad that you said that.

When its work -- strip clubs,and porno and such -- it just exploitation. Of both women and men. Somebody somewhere is merrily ca-chinging away at the cash register.

The emphasis on talking about how explotative the sex trade is almost always primarily on how women are being abused (and they are) but it rarely mentions how men are abused as well by comsuming and/or participating in the stuff.

[RepublicanElephant]

41. yeah, don't forget poland!

"Poles never had to be involved."

:sarcasm:

[Skittles]

20. yeah right, sure

uh huh

[Hello_Kitty]

46. Is that why you think strippers do it?

Ask most exotic dancers if they would be willing to work for free, just for the intrinsic reward of turning people on. You wouldn't find many takers. Their intent is to make a living. But I guess that's why some of them are able to make a lot of money. They are very good at convincing their customers that they just loooove giving them those lap dances.

[mondo joe]

69. How many people would flip burgers or do data entry or check out

groceries just for the intrinisic reward of serving people?

[Hello_Kitty]

92. Yeah, and no one ACTS like they do!

Unlike with stripping, where supposedly it's all about women "expressing their sensuality" and being "artists" and all kinds of crap like that. Nothing wrong with someone taking pride in her work, but thats more about reassuring fragile male egos and maintaining your little fantasy than anything else. I've known more than a few strippers in my life and I gotta tell you, it's a JOB to them - nothing more. They dance for you and take your money. That's it, dude.

[mondo joe]

97. They don't dance for ME or take MY money - I'm gay. But I do agree,

it's a job - that's all I think it is.

[readmoreoften]

98. As an ex-stripper, lemme tell you...

I promise you no one is doing it because they love their 'empowerment'. If you've danced for longer than a week, you know the score.

Throughout history, many femme lesbians have been strippers and sex workers. In a culture that despised us and already considered us 'tainted', many of us learned how to work the situation to our advantage.

Sad thing is, dancers desperately need help with labor rights protection from their employers--but 'feminists' (at least 2nd wave feminists) have such a disdain for sex workers that they've completely abandoned them. I got more sympathy from my blue collar democrat customers.

Stop buying into crap that divides you from other women. Enough of condemning other women for being 'stupid or anti-feminist or unenlightened.'

When you stand against sex workers, you stand against a largely lower-income, and disproportiate lesbian workforce. So cut it the heck out! (end of rant)

[Hello_Kitty]

100. I agree and I hope you don't think I'm in that category

Because I assure you I'm not. The only women I truly consider to be 'stupid and unenlightened', or sellouts and whores, are ones like Ann Coulter, Michelle Malkin, and Phyllis Schlafly. :hi:

[pitohui]

30. of course it is not empowering

what man would like to feel that the only way he could earn decent $$$ was to masturbate some old, unattractive person's crotch w. his rear end?

stripping is for when you need $$$ & you have no legal alternative left to get it

it is sad not empowering

[mondo joe]

34. What work IS empowering? Is flipping burgers? Checking out

groceries at WalMart? Packaging chicken? Data entry?

I find that most work isn't empowering. It's just what you do to earn money.

[pitohui]

39. providing sexual services ain't flipping burgers

you are being deliberately obtuse

w. a name like "mondo joe" i am going to assume you are male

you have never faced this choice, when you are having trouble finding work, as a man, as last resort, you can go to manpower & haul boxes

as a woman, as last resort, i have to masturbate men w. my ass

you don't see the difference, you are being dishonest

i don't have all these wonderful "choices" you have

forced sexual contact kills the pleasure in sex for the woman & impacts her relationships

yr forced lifting of some boxes in a warehouse doesn't stop you from being able to come home & please yr wife

it is apples, oranges, & a completely inability to understand the woman's experience

when i have to participate in unwanted touch w. ugly men for profit, it hurts me, sure it is better than death by starvation, but it still hurts me

[mondo joe]

43. Like I said - I'm pro choice.

If you don't want that sort of job, go flip burgers instead.

[Qibing Zero]

50. Yikes, that's the minority opinion?

I can go much, much further with that - and I'm not even female.

I don't see anything wrong with things like that, if it's your cup of tea, but personally I think the way our society treats sexuality in just about every area is unhealthy. Instead of educating, we suppress. So many people are just severely afraid to embrace life, and consequently it's usually those same people who claim to want to protect it.

It's horrible, and I think by far the biggest failure of it all is the inequality it stresses, which translates into normal relationships as well. Is it wrong for me as a 21 year old male to not want some overtanned, bleached haired girl who does nothing but show off and act subservant all the time? Our society tells me it is. Fuck that. =P

[WildEyedLiberal]

85. Where are 21 year old guys like you on my campus?

:D

Seriously, girls appreciate being treated like equals. There is nothing wrong with the way I look, but if that were the end all and be all of how a man judged me, they'd be missing out on 95% of what makes me worth talking to. So keep on talking to those shy girls studying in the library - I guarantee they're much more interesting people than the bleach blonde sorority bimbos thrusting their boobs at you as you pass on the Quad.

[Modem Butterfly]

76. You don't KNOW sleazy and degrading

I once had to lay off a single mother with three kids (along with a whole bunch of other good people) when the executives had taken HUGE bonuses. THAT'S sleazy and degrading.

I was a phone sex operator in college. I would talk dirty and men would jack off. It paid $10 an hour in 1992 and I could study in between calls. To this day, it ranks as one of the best jobs I've ever had. At least it was honest work.

[TorchTheWitch]

77. maybe you should try it

Most of the strippers I know including myself find it very empowering. If you try it and find it degrading, then you shouldn't do it... that's kind of a no-brainer. Actually, of the few strippers I've ever come across that found it degrading didn't last long... maybe a month, tops. You just can't make any money at this job if it bothers you.

I have FAR more control as a stripper then I could ever have hoped for in the corporate world, and I'm a far better and happier person for switching careers.

I always find it facsinating when people make assumptions about something they have no experience with. For instance, I've never been a banker or know much about it, so I would never make any assumptions about what the job is like, how it makes someone feel or why they chose that line of work.

[Lecky]

99. I feel the same as you...

...is that really the minority opinion on this site?

...scary

[CascadeTide]

102. i don't think it's empowering or degrading

it is what it is, a paycheck. Men and women both do it for other men and women. There is nothing wrong with exhibiting one's sexuality, whether it happens to be dancing on a pole or whatever else. Some do it more tastefully than others but taste is relative. Some people enjoy showing others their bodies and some people enjoy looking at other's bodies. Nobody is forcing either to partake.

[blonndee]

2. I've studied this issue quite a bit and it's interesting to think

about the contradictions and implications of this issue. I do believe that sexual empowerment can be just that--empowering, and many sex workers and strippers will agree. However, I think ultimately the outrageous emphasis upon bodily perfection saps away most of that power for the majority of women--those who haven't the means and/or the will to attain that idealized version of what it means to be sexy.

It's this narrow version of beauty and how important is has become to be not just attractive, but gorgeous, that disempowers women. It also feeds into and reflects contempt for all but the young.

[Matariki]

19. i think "women's" magazines are as bad OR WORSE

i think "women's" magazines are as bad OR WORSE than playboy or working at a strip club. it not for the fact that LOTS of women look at these magazines - LOTS of young girls just forming their self images - and make negative self comparisons.

[pitohui]

32. well yr entitled to yr opinion

in terms of harm done to self-esteem i don't see how you can compare looking at a fashion magazine to having to masturbate a stranger's lap w. yr rear end for cash

it is not the 60s, stripping is prostitution really, it is providing a sexual service, not just strutting yr stuff from a distance

[MsTryska]

61. and it's something one makes the choice to do.

if masturbating a stranger with your ass, isn't soemthing you can do, don't do it.


you can wait tables, work in retail, do whatever it is that will get you money, and let you keep your perceived self-respect.


i resent the idea that a woman becomes a stripper because "she has no choice" and there are no other viable alternatives.

[TorchTheWitch]

84. We don't do it because "we have no choice"

And thanks for saying so. I have never known a single stripper that HAD to do this job and had no other alternative. What so many people here just don't seem to understand is that you CAN'T make money at this job if you don't like it or at least are comfortable with it and can convincingly fake that you like it... if you don't like it AND are uncomfortable with it, you'll be dead in the water the first shift you work, and will go home with pretty empty pockets.

There seems to be a lot of people here that don't see how outrageous it is to make stereotypical assumptions about people they know nothing about who work a job they know nothing about in an industry they know nothing about.

How interesting that in this thread I've been called brainwashed, ignorant, stupid, desperate, lacking in marketable skills, lack a sense of self-worth, etc. All by people who don't know jack shit about what they're talking about and think it's perfectly ok to make outrageous assumptions about me and what I do for a living when they would never say such things about any other person based on their job title.

[MsTryska]

106. No Problem!

actually quite a few of the strippers I know, are either in school, or are in bodybuilding or fitness training, and fund their shows that way.

It's good money, and allows for a somewhat flexible schedule.

[mongo]

107. It's great, isn't it?

To be one of the few that is hated by elements of both the right and the Left?

The really weird thing is, the anti-sex crowd that disses you and your job gets most of their "facts" from RW sources.

Thanks for all of your really great responses in this thread. Sorry you have to put up with brainwashed, ignorant, stupid, desperate people whose own problems with self-worth most likely formed their attitudes.

:hug:

[Hello_Kitty]

53. Women's mags do suck but that's a red herring here

Yes, they are part of the problem with respect to women over-emphasizing their appearance at the expense of other qualities. But it's from the media and entertainment aimed at men that guys get their ideas about how women are supposed to look and act. And many of them reward and punish the females in their midst accordingly, which has a VERY powerful reinforcing effect.

[Matariki]

79. women's magazines deliberately create insecurity

in women and teenage girls in order to sell them things. i find it more insidious because it's less obvious and more accepted as 'normal' and okay.

[MsTryska]

60. I agree with you as well......

for one thing fashion idolizes this anorexic ideal....


at least strip clubs and playboy appreciate curves - which signify higher bodyfat, and health.


i guess it kind of shows the difference in pressure.

men apparently want women to be healthy and sexy, and appreicate that.

society on the other hand would prefer women just disappear to a size fucking zer0.

[MsTryska]

59. I agree with you......

I don't think sex or sexuality hobbles women so much as unattainable ideals.

[Maple]

3. It's called brainwashing

or 'internalizing' the message.

If you learn in the crib, that it's got to be pink all the way...and as revealing as possible, even if you're an astrophysicist, then you'll act that way all your life.

Even though it's stupid and degrading.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

6. I agree with most of your points

I look at girls at FSU, many if not most in very tight tops, showing a lot of belly. Girls of all shapes and sizes. Then you look at the guys and they are dressed so baggy you could put another guy in with them and still have room.

I wonder whether these girls like dressing like that. Do they feel they must?

I've never been prudish but I kind of feel sorry for girls today and the expectations they have. All that trouble for a few minutes with a guy who probably never even heard of a clitoris.

Perhaps the more things change the more they stay the same.

[elehhhhna]

7. did you notice that as girls clothes got more revealing, the boy's got way

maroe loose and oversized? The better to hide those embarrassing woodies, imho. think on it. coincidence?

[TallahasseeGrannie]

8. LOL

Never thought of that! You might be right!

[pitohui]

33. no, it is to hide weapons

the look is evolved from gangsta culture, the purpose to hide a weapon or pretend you have a weapon to hide

i'm afraid i'm from new orleans, but i'm sure it's the same elsewhere, such as so. california

[raccoon]

36. Right on! Your third paragraph. nt

[Book Lover]

9. Slate has a "book club" conversation going on about this very book

http://www.slate.com/id/2126570/entry/2126575/

We're supposed to grapple over two new and pretty alarmist books on the state of sexual culture in America: Pornified: How Pornography Is Transforming Our Lives, Our Relationships, and Our Families, by Pamela Paul; and Female Chauvinist Pigs: Women and the Rise of Raunch Culture, by Ariel Levy. There are a lot of overlaps between them: Both describe the dire effects the rising cultural acceptability of porn has on male-female relationships and on female self-esteem. Paul presents a parade of dismal male porn addicts who can't relate to real women; Levy focuses on young women who've decided (wrongly, she thinks) that porn and its motifs can be empowering for gals. Both paint a depressingly disconnected world, like Sartre's No Exit for the porn age: Women want intimacy with men, men want fantasy sex with porn stars, and the porn stars presumably just want a paycheck. No one's getting much pleasure. It's all alienated, compulsive masturbation, cartoonish artificial breasts, and incessant pop-up ads.

Let's start with Pornified. I must confess that this book made me very cranky. Not about the rise of porn, but about the decline of cultural criticism: Paul's analysis is as compartmentalized and shallow as the sex lives of her subjects. She has her nose pressed so firmly against porn culture that she's utterly blinkered about the rest of society, or history, or politics; it's as if sexuality occupied some autonomous world of its own. (Like a porn set.)

Here are a few of the many bad things Paul blames on porn: failing relationships, men's flight from intimacy, men judging women by harsh appearance standards, men liking large breasts, female body-image issues, general female insecurity, lack of sexual foreplay, male impotence, men demanding more oral sex, infrequent sex among couples—just about everything but acne. (Yes, a single explanation for every social ill is very convenient.) I'm no historian, but I'm under the impression that all these behaviors and predispositions long preceded the rise of porn. Men treat women like sex objects? Not exactly new: Consider the brilliant, crazy Valerie Solanas' 1967 S.C.U.M. Manifesto: "It's often said that men use women. Use them for what? Surely not pleasure." Women are romantically disappointed in men? Read—gosh, it's such an endless list—the collected stories of Dorothy Parker. Men are in flight from intimacy? I know from careful study of The New Yorker cartoons that when television was invented, husbands planted themselves on the couch and have yet to look up—unless it's to play golf, poker, flee to the office, or have affairs, all of which wives have been miffed about for decades.

<snip>

[MsTryska]

62. one thing i can say for Porn watching males......

they do know where a clitoris is.



emotionally pretty hobbled, but they can find their way around.

there has to be a happy medium.

[baby_mouse]

14. It comes entirely to consent and nothing else

Degradation in this context can only be subjective - if the stripper doesn't feel degraded but feels empowered then she isn't degraded, she's empowered and no-one really has any business characterising it one way or the other without consulting her. She *chooses* to strip.

...Until, that is, someone comes along and tells her that she isn't really empowered but degraded and she believes them. Then she really IS degraded and will feel so, but only because SHE feels so. She gets to set the limits, nobody else.

A bit strange, that.

[Maple]

15. It comes entirely to money

It's not empowering to turn men on. They don't need help.

It's about power...the power of a dollar to get someone to degrade themselves for you.

[baby_mouse]

27. Your lack of understanding of the male sex drive,

... which you clearly have stereotyped, is sexist, uninformed and offensive. How would YOU know what help men may need in acheiving sexual arousal?

Where the work is coerced, i.e. non-consensual, it is degrading, where it is not, i.e. consensual it is not. Being paid to do something you enjoy is not degrading.

There is nothing wrong with turning men on. Neither is there anything wrong with turning men on for money.

[pitohui]

35. who enjoys working

strippers don't enjoy their work any more than anyone else in a shitty job enjoys their work

:eyes:

you string together unrelated statements that falsify the experience

true, nothing wrong in turning someone one, even if you are paid, BUT there is plenty wrong in not being able to get a DECENT job where you do not have to perform sexual services for pay

most women do have pride

do you know any MEN who would be happy & proud to sell sexual services for pay?

i bet you don't but at most you know VERY few

why then is this sort of life considered good enough for a woman?

the happy hooker is a story from long ago, most sex workers are not going to be happy or rich or at the top of the heap, most are in a dead end trap w. no future ahead of them as they age

[mondo joe]

44. Of course there are men who sell sexual services.

I'm a gay man and I can tell you there are plenty of men making money in gay porn, in dancing, in escorting (aka prostitution).

[MsTryska]

67. and straight ones too -

the gay for pay kind.

[MsTryska]

66. I actually know men and women who sell there services......

to men, for pay.


they tend to enjoy the money.

and there's good money to be made.


the name of the game is getting as much as you can, whilst giving out as little as possible.

the difference I have seen between men and women, working the tricks, is that a. men are far more cutthroat, and matter of fact, and they also tend to save that money to get into some other business.

[TorchTheWitch]

86. Who the fuck are you to say I don't enjoy my work???

I LOVE my job! I wouldn't go back to the corporate world for anything, and stripping for a living was the smartest career move I ever made... only wish I had done it sooner.

You have a lot of really stereotypical assumptions about strippers and no actual knowledge of what you're talking about.

Frankly, it's offensive.

[mondo joe]

28. As if it's empowering to do data entry or flip cheesburgers or

any other work.

Work is work, and many people do it because they need to make money.

I'm not out to judge people for choosig whatever way works for them, and I don't think dancing is any more degrading than any other work.

[pitohui]

37. i'm sure you would never have to dance for pay

so easy to say it is no worse than flipping burgers

i can tell my mom i flipped burgers

she can come in my restuarant & watch me flip if she likes

i can't tell her i'm rubbing off men in the gold room w. my ass for a buck

if you don't see how this is destructive to the woman's heart & soul, then what can i tell you, if you don't see how it creates secrets w.in families that are hurtful, what can i say

sometimes we do what we gotta do to put food on the table

but please don't pretend it ain't degrading just because you will never have to do it, so you don't see what's so bad abt it

if women had real options, damn few would dance on yr lap, and THAT'S the reality men won't acknowledge

[mondo joe]

38. THat's between you and your mom. I'm not a puritan, nor do I

seek to judge purely personal choices of others.

I trust women to make choices, just as I trust men to do the same.

I'm pro-choice.

[pitohui]

40. but your position seems to be anti-choice

because women w. choice don't choose sex work

you have to keep us in a low paid ghetto to force us to the stripper's pole

[mondo joe]

42. Hardly. I trust women to make choices about abortion, work, etc.

And your arguments are exactly the same as those of the anti-choice people - "women don't ULY choose this" or "women are brainwashed into this".

I don't care what anyone chooses to do to make a living - it's their choice, not mine. And unlike you, I don't assume I know better than they do.

[TorchTheWitch]

87. It's ALWAYS a choice!

It was the smartest choice I ever made, and I don't work with or know a single stripper that HAD to do this for a living.

Just because it is inconveivable to you PERSONALLY to do this job and like it, certainly doesn't mean there are plenty of others who are just fine with it.

Actually, the single biggest reason that income for strippers has gone down is because there are MANY more women who WANT to do it then there ever used to be... there is a hell of a lot of too much willing supply to make the income we used to from the demand.

[TransitJohn]

52. Well, I hate to burst your bubble,

but there are plenty of women who would strip or turn tricks if they had other options.

[lumberjack_jeff]

89. There's no moratorium on attractive female burger flippers

Most anyone can flip burgers but comparatively few can succeed in the sex industry. People tend to rely on the skills that they can use most profitably.

Whether or not it's destructive is a different question, one in which I'm inclined to agree.

The basic premise that women (why is it never suggested that male porn stars take the jobs out of desperation?) choose these jobs because they have no other options does not pass the giggle test.

Attractiveness opens doors in every line of work. The porn career is just the most lucrative. (and in fact some do find it fun)

Aside from these jobs, which careers are closed to young women that are open to young men?

[MsTryska]

64. But really....let's talk about the power of a dollar?

who's really getting degraded by whom?



the way i see it, the man that walks out $100 bucks poorer, with soggy pants is the one that got degraded.

[NervousRex]

71. Exactly

Anyone who's been in a strip club knows who holds the power....and it aint the "client". It costs $5 to fart in most places.

[MsTryska]

72. Unless it's VIP.....in which case

you'll be charged $50 dollars for having a booth for 15 minutes to fart in.


That's not counting the price of the lapdance.

[NervousRex]

73. Touche

I've only had the "pleasure" of being fleeced twice in my lifetime in strip bars....Once in Germany where I was drugged and robbed. So I have a problem figuring out who the victim is in these type of circumstances.

[MsTryska]

74. Oooh! drugged and robbed.....

that's scary.


I learned everything I know by immersing myself in a gay stripclub scene, that happened to have a lot of gay for pay straightboys. Some of them are still friends of mine to this day...


they had a sister club that was hetero - and the girls would come over on their nights off to see what was going on at the gay club....so i met and socialized with them too....and it was fascinating, but i'll tell ya the overhwelming sense among the dancers themselves is that damn near every customer is a mark.


and god help him if he's old, unattractive, and flashing money.

[NervousRex]

78. Interesting...

My experience happened during a college-age trek through Europe(1992)....The club promised a beastiality "schau"...well who am I not to, under the influence of a few beers, and a wad of cash. Well, suffice to say it was a clip-joint, and my friend and I were marched to the exchange bank by a couple of no-necked bruisers to exchange a shitload of money to release us from their "custody". Subsequently I have found any other strip club is essentially a "kinder, gentler" version of this place on the Reeperbahn.

[MsTryska]

80. that's seriously messed up.....

Seems like i've heard about this type of stuff happening in Amsterdam.

but you're right - they are all "kinder gentler" versions....

the more "motivated" dancers i knew, would set a specific dollar figure for the evening, and would work the room, until they hit $300 for the night or whatever, and then goof off and hang out and play pool til their "shifts" were done.

but make no mistake - there was no "woe is me, i have to use my body for money" about it.

[Qibing Zero]

57. That's a rather shallow way of looking at it

First the point must be made to consider how many women would do things like this if they were provided the resources to make ends meet. Also, one must consider how many well-educated women, with those same resources provided, would choose such options anyway. I would assume none would do it, unless there was a great incentive - and the 'empowerment' gained from it would not be anywhere near great enough. Stripping is not walking naked on the beach, for goodness sake.

Trying to argue that it's all subjective, or relative, to the mind is really not an argument at all in this case. With the right conditioning and mind-fucking, you could make someone feel empowered by treating them like a complete slave. That doesn't make it a good thing. I mean, by your logic we should be accepting things like that.

[Matariki]

17. i saw a good number of my MALE friends empowered

by going naked and sexy at burningman. i'm not kidding, it changed some of them radically. and for the better, imo.

(heterosexual) men rarely, if ever, have the experience of being looked at or being seen as visually sexy. it seemed to be a very positive experience for them.

perhaps the 'degrading' part isn't someone flaunting their sex appeal, but our cultural over-emphasis on a person's (read: woman's) value due to looks.

[Hello_Kitty]

49. It's enjoyable and empowering IF

You are not coerced into it, it is not required of you to feed yourself and your kids, and it's not (as you say) the basis of your value. That being the case, it's actually equally as rare that women enjoy being visually sexy without reservation.

Which I think is terribly sad. For all of us.

[LoZoccolo]

18. I have never seen a woman get hauled away...

...for not being a stripper pole dancer. Men and women do things to attract each other, and if they don't want to attract each other, they can stop doing those things.

[Maple]

21. No, they get fired and turfed

and when there are mouths at home to feed...you do whatever the boss says to do...pole dancing, lap dancing, waltzing people into the back rooms...

[LoZoccolo]

23. Please review the original post.

We're talking about what women do voluntarily.

[Maple]

24. I know what it said

I also mentioned the words 'brainwashing' and 'internalizing'

Women in Saudi Arabia wear a burkka voluntarily you know.

They've been told since birth that women are inferior to men in intellect, and are protected by them ...because other men will go berserk and attack them in the street if so much as a hair shows.

Hearing that all their lives has an effect. The same mental programming happens in North America...the only difference is between covering up and uncovering.

[LoZoccolo]

25. Nah, that's not the same.

I'm sure you'll get some people to play along with your notion, but most people are like "oh dear" and just don't want to get involved in that type of argument.

[Maple]

26. Very much the same

But thank you for telling me you're into superficial discussions only.

It saves time.

[RepublicanElephant]

45. do gay male dancers/strippers feel any or less degraded by their jobs?

isn't this is a human issue?

[Ravenseye]

47. What Would Your Daughter Do?

If you wouldn't want your own Daughter to do it, then that's probably a good benchmark for something that is degrading to women.

Do you want your daughter to dance and titlate strange men for money?

Would you be proud of your daughter for showing a little extra g-string in the back above her pants?

If your daughter was in a drunk sex scene in Girls Gone Wild would you buy copies for all your friends and family out of pride?

If you answered yes to any of these, you're probably not a parent of a daughter, and if you are....wow....that's pretty fucked up.

[mondo joe]

51. Of course parents don't want their children to do all sorts of things

they are or were quite willing to do themselves.

What we think about those we feel most protective of - even ridiculously so - is not a good standard for what adults can do.

[Ravenseye]

54. It's called experience

If you get addicted to Heroin, and were willing to do it, but learned out destructive it is, and how hard it was for you to get off, you're not going to want your child to do it.

Same thing with many things, but not all. Sometimes you want your kids to learn from their own mistakes.

My point though is that if the question is "is it degrading" then the answer is found by "Would you want your son/daughter to do it".

I'm not saying it should be illegal, i'm just saying that's a pretty good barometer for what is degrading. I'm not saying it should be a standard for what adults should be allowed to do, but what it is or not. I'd never support making stripping, pornography or it's ilk illegal. My point is that to anyone who thinks it ISNT degrading, should look at it from that vantage point.

Would you want your child to be a crack whore?
Would you want your child to be an architect?
Would you want your child to be a stripper?
Would you want your child to be a ballet instructor?

If your answer is 'sure' or 'If she wants to be' or something anywhere from noncommital to positive it's probably not degrading.

[mondo joe]

65. Would you want your daughter to have an abortion?

If not, does that mean it's degrading?

I don't judge what adults should do by what I'd like my daughters - whom I will always in some way think of as children - to do.

I don't want my daughters to do all sorts of things they'll probably do - but that doesn't mean those things are degrading.

[Ravenseye]

70. It depends on the situation

If my daughter needed an abortion, then yes I would want my daughter to have an abortion. If she had been raped, if the pregnancy were threatening her life, etc. I'd be more than supportive of her getting an abortion, if it were her choice.

So I can't answer your question the way you want.

However if i WERE a person who wouldn't want my daughter to have an abortion, and she did, it would be the same thing. A person who wouldn't want their daughter to have an abortion, would feel that her getting an abortion was degrading to herself, and her family.

That's a perfect example though of how i'm not talking about what should be legal or not legal. People's definitions of what is degrading, or right or wrong differ.

I'm sure tehre are people out there who would sit their with pride as their daughter slid down that stripper pole. I'm just not one of them.

[mondo joe]

75. Then I suggest not thinking of other consenting adults as if they

are your children and - to use your own answer here, to apply your own standard of what would be degrading.

Everyone's not the same. Peole make different choices, and feel differently about those choices.

[Hello_Kitty]

55. So true, but some will not see it

I've pointed this out to some guys and there's this flicker of understanding. It immediately goes away to be replaced with this attitude of "but that's different - it's MY daughter!" The view of women as property lingers in society and that's why they can compartmentalize their treatment of women so easily. The woman giving them the lap dance is not MY daughter/wife/sister/whatever, therefore they don't have a proprietary interest in her.

[Ravenseye]

63. Sexual Being versus Sexual Object

People have a problem separating in their heads what it means to be a 'sexual being' and a 'sexual object'. Men will always look at women with a sexual eye, and vice versa. It's human nature to 'check out' other humans. We do it to the opposite sex, and the same sex. We're always sizing everyone else up, either to be a partner or a competetor. As long as those hormones are flowing normally, it'll happen.

So to have that be an intimate part of nearly everone's life, and be able to understand the difference between that and sexual exploitation, can be difficult, as it often is a fairly subtle boundary.

In some parts of the world a common insult is 'sister fucker'. If a man cops a feel, or otherwise disrepsects a woman that woman might turn and call him that to shame him. Every woman is someone's mother, sister, daughter. They may not be YOUR mother, sister, or daughter, but you need to treat all women, the way you'd treat 'yours', otherwise other men will treat 'your' women the way you treat 'theirs'.

[mondo joe]

82. And every man is someone's son.

But not everyone feels the same about everything.

One sister might feel fine about erotic dancing. One may not.

I don't see any reason to treat one sister as if she's the other.

[mondo joe]

68. The question is patronizing by definition.

Thinkig of adult women as if they are children (we always see our kids as children, even in their own middle age) is by definition patronizing.

[TransitJohn]

90. Partially true

but I gotta call partially bullshit.

"The woman giving them the lap dance is not MY daughter/wife/sister/whatever, therefore they don't have a proprietary interest in her."

It's not about proprietary interest, it's about fucking. Big difference to me. And if someone sees it as the same, wow.

[Hello_Kitty]

91. Lap dancing and fucking are not the same

Though sometimes it can be hard to tell the difference ;) When a woman strips for money, it is a financial transaction. She is performing a service to be paid. Most of the time, sex isn't that type of transaction. At least I hope the guys I've been with didn't think of me as someone they "rented".

Some people, maybe not you, consider stripping to be degrading to women. Obviously, men who would be horrified at the idea of their wives or daughters in such an occupation are among them. So when these same guys indulge in having that type of entertainment provided to them by other women aren't they demonstrating a disconnect in their ethics? Not to mention being hypocritical in the extreme. And if YOU don't see the connection, there's nothing else I could possibly say to you.

[TransitJohn]

93. I get your point.

But I was referring to the original theme in the post I relied to, which was that men are okay with women being in the sex industry, unless it was someone close, because then it was about a proprietary interest. I guess I'm looking at the converse, namely, that men are okay that women work in the sex trade, unless they are close, because it's about sexual stimulation. I guess that's why I called partial bullshit. I don't consider stripping degrading to women.

[Hello_Kitty]

96. I can see yours too

Even though you think stripping is okay, you would be understandably uncomfortable seeing someone in your immediate family doing it. But I'm talking about guys who have one set of rules for the women they are close to and a completely different one for other women. That's bullshit IMHO.

It's kind of similar to parents who are really strict and protective over their daughters while allowing, or even encouraging, their sons to run wild. When you point that out to them they'll justify it by saying they need to protect their daughters from all those OTHER boys whose parents don't reign them in. They just don't get it. :eyes:

[mongo]

109. My daughter is an international belly dancer

And I'm very proud of her. She has great isolation. Best danm dancer I have ever seen, and that includes her mother.

If she wanted to spend her summers at the local strip club making money, that would be HER choice.

[bloom]

48. The notion of woman

existing to satisfy men is stronger in "dominator", patriarchal, fundamental types of societies...


"For example, from the conventional perspective focusing only on the activities and experiences of men, Hitler's Germany, Khomeini's Iran, the Japan of the Samurai, and the Aztecs of Meso America would seem to represent completely different cultures. But once we also look at the situation of women in these societies, we are able to identify the social configuration characteristic of rigidly male-dominated societies. We then see striking commonalities. First, all these otherwise widely divergent societies are rigidly male-dominant. Second, they are characterized by hierarchies of domination and "strong-man" rule, both in the family and state. Third (as is required to maintain hierarchies of domination) they are characterized by a high degree of institutionalized or socially accepted violence, ranging from wife and child beating within the family to aggressive warfare on the larger tribal or national level.

Conversely, we also see striking similarities between otherwise extremely diverse societies where there is more gender equity--societies where to be considered "real men" males do not have to be dominant. Characteristically, such societies tend to be not only much more peaceful but also much less hierarchic and authoritarian. This is evidenced by anthropological data (i.e., the BaMbuti and Tiruray), by contemporary studies of trends in modem societies (i.e., Scandinavian nations such as Sweden, Norway, and Finland), and by the prehistoric and historic data detailed in The Chalice and the Blade and Sacred Pleasure, some of which has been briefly presented in the previous section.

The larger picture that emerges from this gender-holistic perspective also indicates that, contrary to popular misconceptions, male dominance and male violence are not innate. Clearly throughout history not all men have been violent. And today many men are consciously rejecting their stereotypical "masculine" roles -- for example, the men who are today redefining fathering in the more caring and nurturing way once stereotypically associated only with mothering.

In short, the problem in dominator societies is not men. It is rather the way male identity must be defined in male-dominant societies where, by definition, "masculinity" is equated with domination and conquest-- be it of women, other men, or nature.

...Not only that, in these societies sex becomes an act of male conquest and domination, as in the common description of men's affairs with women as "scoring." In addition, the family structure of these societies has to be one where men rule, women serve, and children learn early on that it is very dangerous to challenge orders, no matter how unjust."

http://www.ru.org/71eisler.htm


I don't see the "dominator" model ( that some women may exploit for their own gain) as being beneficial or positive for people in general or as compatible with progressive ideals.

[Qibing Zero]

58. This looks to be a good read - thanks. nt

[BlueStateGirl]

88. I have really mixed feelings on this. I've worked in the bar industry

for along time. I have friends who make their living as strippers, I've been to my fair share of 'gentleman's clubs'. And like most things, it's not black and white. I have known women who danced at Cheetah's and the Gold Club in Atlanta, who loved their jobs, made a great deal of money and were quite well adjusted. I doubt they felt degraded by their work. I have a friend, who danced at the Spearmint Rhino in Vegas. She loved her job. These women are beautiful, uninhibited, talented and intelligent.

Blondie, at the Clermont Lounge, in Atlanta, was a local legend. She was amazing. Now, the Clermont lounge is like something out of Tom Waits' song, a seedy little whole in the wall , on the bottom floor of a hotel.( We started hanging there after we heard Trent Reznor loved the place. )

And ,then there are those who fall into the business because they are desperate,and they are exploited and it is degrading for them. It can be a harsh existence, filled with real physical dangers.

Sometimes serving people food and drink it pretty damn degrading.

[Hello_Kitty]

95. Same here. Conflicted.

Everything you said plus I think that exotic dance can be a really cool form of artistic expression, when it's done right. I've seen shows in Vegas where the beauty and skill of the dancers, male and female, left me awestruck. But even with these elite performers, there's this really ugly underbelly. I was dating a guy in one of the shows and he pointed out this one gorgeous young woman and told me how she'd lost all her teeth due to bulimia.

And this is our sexual ideal, people. :wtf:

[MsTryska]

105. *lol* at the Atlanta haunts......

you been to swinging richards yet? if not i highly suggest it.


Cheetah has the best wings ever.

[BlueStateGirl]

108. I lived in Atlanta in the late 90's. I've been to Swinging Richard's

a few times. I practically lived at Backstreets. I didn't finish work til 4:30 or 5, so that was where we usually went.

I worked at an Irish Pub in Buckhead.

I miss Atlanta. It was a fun town.

[MsTryska]

110. You'll be sorry to know,

(if you didn't already)

that backstreet is dead and buried, and they're putting condos up in it's place. I'm heartbroken.

to be honest - i haven't been out since they shut it down, because i have no idea where to go at 3am, now and soemtimes waffle house just doesn't cut it.

[BlueStateGirl]

111. What???? Last I heard they had to wrap it up at 2AM. I didn't know

it was closed.

That's terrible. That place was an institution.

Is the Stein Club still around? Another on of my favorite haunts.

[MsTryska]

112. i don't know...I've never heard of the Stein Club.....

where was it?


In any case - yeah - they changed the liquor laws effective Jan 1st 2004, mandating that all bars and clubs stop serving at 2am. Backstreet used to get around this with the members only, rule, but my thinking is the law was specifically worded to disallow Backstreet from being open 24/7.


And they just died after that. And then sold off, and now, they're knocking it down to put mid-rise condos in it's place.

[BlueStateGirl]

117. 9th and Peachtree. What a great bar. A real bear drinkers bar.

What about the Highlander? That's another great bar.

Man, I am missing Atlanta right about now.

[Mr_Spock]

94. It's FEMALE CHAUVINIST SOW!!!

Get it right anyway!!

[FarLeftRage]

101. Whaa???

I certainly didn't come up with that title...

And I certainly did not expect to have so many replies on a non-complex subject, either.

The only thing I can say is, that now women are using the power of attraction over men and in some cases are going a bit too far.

[Mr_Spock]

103. lol - I was just teasing

In the 70's when the movement was popular, we used to joke that some women were "female chauvinist sows" - it was just fun play.

[Nikia]

113. I am recovering from anorexia

I always had a conflict with my body even before the eating disorder. Should I be attractive or not? On one hand, it was good to be attractive because our society really seems to value that. On the otherhand, the little bit of attractiveness that I had seemed to get me sexually harassed and assaulted.
I have always had big breasts in comparision to my overall size since hitting B cup in fifth grade and C cup in sixth grade. Even though I am underweight now, I still have them. I am not so thin that most people think that I look unattractive wearing clothes. In fact, everywhere I go, men are staring at me even though I am not attractive. They see a thin girl with breasts. On one hand, I always wanted to be attracted and perhaps that was part of the eating disorder. It is a good thing to be attractive and to have sexual power, isn't it? What I really want to shout though is: "Damn it, I am not just a body." There is no power in being just a body and even it's value fades as we all are constantly getting older.
Sometimes, I wish that I belonged to a religion that encourages (or even forces) modest dress. Sometimes, I think that I would be more comfortable wearing a burka. I don't want to be just a body, to the strangers who will never know me. I'd rather be invisible than that.

[FarLeftRage]

116. We all have a body

and it depends on its attractiveness whether we get along in life or not.

Sad to say, as well it depends on the judgement of other minds that influence our bodies.

I know it is hard to say, but all of us should try to live for who we are and not what others think we are... whether it is "attractive" or not.

Peace to you.

[izzybeans]

115. Two contradictory messages: One is that in this case female sexuality

is no longer repressed, as if women were supposed to be passionless recieveers. Two, and here is the contradiction, you might as well give a stripper an organ grinder and you've got yourself a minstrel show.

So perhaps some good with a whole lot of bad. We other victorians still have a propensity to sanction female expressions of sexuality. Perhaps open expressions of it are not so bad; but in this form, I'm afraid this is not true. It's just the same red light districts that the "gentry" patronized when their wife's were sleeping. Instead of hookers at the saloon, its Christina Aguilera on MTV.

If partners could express themselves so freely than perhaps we'd have ourselves a winner.