Something that concerns me re: "Where are the Democrats"

[LittleClarkie]

There were threads yesterday and today that talked about news articles that compared Edwards and Kerry's speeches yesterday, making prominent mention of each's possible aspirations re: 2008, and essentially making the reponse to Katrina from prominent Democrats sound like politics as usual.

It disturbs me that some buy into that spin. Right after the Katrina disaster, there were many calls for a response from the Dems. We've gotten some from Dean, from Clark, Bill Clinton, Kerry and Edwards.

I've seen folks on various boards talk about how Kerry and Edwards must have been copying Clinton, even though each surely had their speaking engagements planned well in advance of any strong words from Bill.

It all seems so counterproductive to me, all this comparing and assigning of selfish motivation to our Dem leadership, esp. after calls for them to speak.

Not to mention that if the "liberal" media can get us talking about who's running in 2008 instead of what these people are saying about Bush's incompetency, they will have won, and we will have lost. That's what they want. Please think about not helping them take the focus away from Bush.

So when prominent Dems speak, they get picked apart by us and by the press. Why can't we be glad to have them out there, nailing Bush and the Republicans without comparing who's got the harshest words, which one is jockeying for position etc, etc.

Can't we just enjoy what we said we wanted, even if it comes from somebody we ain't never gonna vote for in 2008?

rambling rant off

[bostonbabs]

1. that was great...I strongly agree with you! n/t

[yurbud]

2. I half agree--there might not even be a real election in 2008...

just like 2000, 2002, and 2004.

[ClassWarrior]

3. Huzzah!!

Spot on as usual, LC.

NGU.

[OzarkDem]

4. Back to the basics; What would Mel Carnahan do?

What would Paul Wellstone do?

It wasn't so long ago that many of us could wander the halls of Congress and meet with genius.

Its still there in all of us.

[bluedawg12]

5. I agree that we support Democrats when they speak on the issues

It's a good reminder to me not to be hyper critical, hyper analytical.

You know, I think freepers have it easier, they get the memo's, talking points, and the accept it all and regurgitate.

I've noticed the libs are more independent and individualistic and actually we are the free thinkers.

http://www.noahswish.org/

[LittleClarkie]

8. Critical is fine

I wish it didn't come from a place, sometimes, where if the message was coming out of someone else's mouth it would be accepted, not rejected because the listener has bad feelings re: whoever.

I notice it when it's Kerry. People will tell him to shut the fuck up, even when the message itself is good. I've seen it with Clark, where old primary talking points about him being a Republican in Dem's clothing will come up outta nowhere, even though he too is going after Bush in a satisfactory fashion.

I'm in favor of dissent and reasoned criticism, esp when it focuses on the topic of the thread at hand. But "fuck him", "too little, too late", "that was lame", and the general rehashing of past grevances that are off the subject -- these sorts of responses just get sort of wearying after a while.

[noahmijo]

18. You just hit a point I've been making for years

being a Democrat or at least a left of center individual in America is both a curse and a blessing when it comes to our pack.

It's a blessing on the hand that we're free thinking enough to have different ideas and we're not in total lockstep with those we look to for leadership.

On the other hand we spend so much time bickering amongst ourselves that we can never get it all together in time, while the repukes get their marching orders and fall in lockstep especially when it counts.

I really really wish just once everyone left of center and beyond could just ban together for one goddamn election and THEN we can have our debates over how things should be, but jesus people the first step is to kick out the neo-con facists, THEN we work on compromise.

[NoQuarter]

23. AMEN!

Free thinking and ideas don't mean shit if you're not in a position to implement them.

[LittleClarkie]

24. Indeed. But I want to make it clear I'm not trying to make

everyone walk in lockstep like a bunch of automatons.

It's the kneejerk, "I already know all I need to know so I'm not even gonna look all that close" kinds of reactions I get sometimes that I want to try to break through.

The almost automatic responses. The ones I know best are related to Kerry, but anybody's supporters could give you their list, I'm sure.

Sometimes I think some folks have

"Too little, too late"
"He's had his chance"
"Was he for that before he was against it?"
"Shut the fuck up!"
"Make him go away!"
"Where were you in Ohio, Kerry?"
"I'm not voting for him in 2008"
"Skull and Bones! Skull and Bones!"

already on their notepad, ready to go when they see the word "Kerry," like a red flag. Maybe I'm just looking for some variety in the diet. Some fresh criticism that sounds like there was some thought put in.

Meanwhile, I've been called a

"Kerrybot"
"sychophant"
"apologist"
"paid operative"
and the newest one...drum roll...
"Kerry freeper"

which makes me feel about as good as having my freeper neighbors call me a Communist and/or Socialist.

I've also wandered into Clarkie threads, and defended dear Wes against the "he's a Republican in Dem's clothing" meme. And I've defended Dean against those who thought he was selling out on Iraq, reminding them of what Dean has said and continues to say, and how it never freakin' changed.

I guess I'm trying to get the emotion out and the facts in. But of course this is the internets, and as a friend once said, posting out here is like driving in traffic. You often don't think very hard before you instinctively just make your move. So geting folks to break out of that is not easy. But the automatic responses do get me down.

[klook]

69. "Kerry Freeper"?????

:crazy: Boy, that's a good one!

I thought your post was great. Keep up the good work! :thumbsup:

[LittleClarkie]

71. Yep. Thanks. As for the term "Kerry freeper"

They meant freeper as in "freeping a poll," saying that a bunch of us must get together and coordinate our responses to DailyKos diaries that feature Kerry, since, you know, he couldn't possibly have any real supporters who would say nice things about him the way some of us do.

I feel sorry for those who support Kerry on Daily Kos. They sure put up with alot.

[Der Blaue Engel]

6. We need to be better consumers of information

and stop abetting our enemies. They do just fine at twisting Democratic words to their nasty spin without our help.

Good call, LittleClarkie.

[cooolandrew]

7. Totally with you

Kerry and Edwards had their stab at the pie, but I think we should still give them respect for making the right noises. Wherever we see backbone reinforce they gain strength from us not us deriding them.

If Kucinich is running we should get behind this guy image is nothing content is everything. MLK knew that. Of all the people he is the guy making the right sounds. Plus added bonus media won't attack him the hawks will feel he is a non starter though from what I have research Kucinich has great fire in his belly.

[LittleClarkie]

9. I've said it before and I'll say it again

if Hillary makes the right noises, I'll acknowledge it, though I don't want her in 2008.

Hell, if Joementum suddenly woke the fuck up and started blasting Bush, I would acknowledge his good words.

You get the idea.

[ElectroPrincess]

43. IF we truly had an "opposition party" I'd agree but I do NOT

The Democratic Leadership are in on the scam. Woe to you folks who believe that most of our Democratic leaders give a sh*t about us "little people."

The only real difference between the Democratic Leaders to the Pukes is that they will take time to figuratively bow or curtsy at us poor working slobs before they give EVERYTHING away to big business and the ultra-wealthy.

Nope, I feel ZERO obligation OR loyalty to the Democratic party and I'm through voting for DINOs, especially those DLC types who kiss Republican A**.

We have NO opposition party. Like the Phoenix, the Democratic party will have to DIE first, then rise from the ashes after these fat, bloated and insincere FAUX Democratic Leaders LEAVE. :puke:

F**k the DLC and the vast majority of our "gutless wonder" National Democratic Representative! Many of us will NOT bail them out again. Bank on it!

[AgadorSparticus]

50. I couldn't have said it any better. Nice post.

:applause:

[ElectroPrincess]

53. Thanks, I've made my point and I hope people don't take it wrong ...

I used to love the Democratic Party and want to work for it. I hung on through the 2004 election. I even sat the poll "knowing" that the indicators were on Kerry's side.

Truth is that since we're going to lose, we might as well work locally through the Greens and, at least make a difference within our individual communities.

There's just two final points which makes arguing about who or WHAT PARTY to vote for a moot point:

1) We don't have a free press; and
2) We don't have a free press ;).

[applegrove]

10. They have responded responsably and soberly. And the truth has

risen to the top.

Dems seem to have learnt over the years of the Rove WH - who run a campaign the whole Presidential term - that not being predictable and present reality stops Bush from presenting his myths.

Haven't you noticed? Bush is stuck at 40 in the polls. Somebody is doing something right.

And all Dems have made good speeches of late.

[LittleClarkie]

11. Somebody is indeed doing something right

I'm just trying to make sure it doesn't go wrong again.

[wisteria]

12. Your exactly right! Why don't Dems support Dems?

Is it just that they have such large egos that they can't stand the fact that someone else said something important or is taking the lead. Are our dem leaders in it for themselves or the people and the party? Take for instance John Kerry's speech,this speech was in a way a call to action. A plea to take our concerns to the leaders in Washington.He addressed the failings of this administration, in a way to warn us that it won't get better unless we try to make it better. We risk losing our country, to the power structure now in place in Washington, if we continue to put down and find fault with our own. Yet, that is what we are doing- we are all responsible for the state of our party, only we can make the changes.It starts by encouraging and supporting our leaders and our party.

[LittleClarkie]

13. I guess I'm also sending out a plea for folks to overlook their feelings

however justified they may feel they are, and look at the words. The words are often good, even if the guy ain't your guy. This is why I will tiptoe into Clark threads and defend the guy. When he's doing good work, he doesn't deserve primary era talking point redux, you know?

[sam sarrha]

14. look down for them, they lost their spines.. must be crawling around

somewhere..

[LittleClarkie]

15. Thank you for providing a case in point

most unproductive.

[ladylibertee]

16. I agree with you.I think we should back our dems.I mentioned that ...

in a thread last night.I'm sick of the pessimistic crap.

[paulk]

17. a lot of people on this board don't want the Dems to look good

they're hoping to get people to vote for a third party - they need to keep pushing the meme that Dems aren't doing anything; not representing us, have no spines, etc.

Some are just flat out trolls, doing their best to get people on the left fighting each other. Doing a good job of it, too.

[LittleClarkie]

19. And then again, some folks won't be happy

unless the Democrats are walking up to Bush and pimp-slapping him repeatedly. Anything less is deemed "spineless" or "too little too late."

[flaminbats]

20. where are Harry and Louise ?

When Clinton introduced his healthcare plan in September of 1993, Republicans were already lined up and shooting for 1994. "Clinton passed the largest tax increase in history, Clinton wants gays running the military, and he wants to ration healthcare with a threatening new national ID card!!"

But now..who cares about mandatory national ID cards, cuts in assistance as people suffer in the Gulf, and tax-cuts for those who should be paying more? There is so much ammo we can use against this Republican government, what do Democratic leaders have to lose by using it? Perhaps we may lose the minority of votes!! :scared:

[LittleClarkie]

21. I can't remember what it was in response to, but I know I've said

"Give em hell, Harry" more than once. And Pelosi has been featured on Rush more than once, mostly because she dared to speak up on the Abu Ghraib photos.

They've been around, but people have a short memory.

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

22. Agreed. When they...

...speak up and show some spine we should encourage them, not question they're motivation or lament about what we wish they'd done earlier.

[Skidmore]

25. I have been and will continue to be on of the people who periodically

ask that question. When I ask it, however, it has less to do with what they say then when they say it. There have been times when the silence has been deafening while pols have stuck their fingers in the air to determine the direction of the wind. I want these people to get out front and LEAD, to be an opposition party.

[LittleClarkie]

26. Not a problem to see the question when they are indeed absent

but sometimes I will see the question on the same day that I have already seen more some Democratic responses. As long as the questionisn't asked with one's hands over one's eyes, it's cool.

[Pepperbelly]

27. Palosi did some good work on this ...

clueless and oblivious ring any bells?

Go, Nancy, go!

[LittleClarkie]

29. That's the problem

I bet it doesn't ring bells with some folks, and it should. If a person is going to sit there with their eyes closed and their ears plugged, then they shouldn't be surprised when they don't know "where the Democrats are."

And when you point out such things as what Pelosi said, you tend to get called an apologist or somesuch. I just wanna get that glazed look out of some people's eyes. Yes, even among progressives, people can go on autopilot. I know, because sometimes I catch myself doing it too.

[emulatorloo]

28. kicking and nominating. . . .

:kick:

[Pacifist Patriot]

30. Huge Thumbs Up!

[Bernardo de La Paz]

31. Agree. 2006! Republicans Out! 2006! 2006! 2006! 2006! 2006! 2006! 2006!

[Tesla]

32. Just recieved this from John Edwards

The Chief Justice of the Supreme Court is the most important judge on the most important court in our country, responsible for protecting and upholding the rights and freedoms outlined in our Constitution. I have carefully reviewed Judge John Roberts' testimony and listened to him give unsubstantial, boilerplate answers and avoid answering even the most basic questions about his own views today.

Based on everything I have seen and read from Judge Roberts' work in the Reagan Administration, his past opinions, and his most recent testimony, I wanted you to be the first to know that I must oppose his nomination to be our country's Chief Justice.

I do so because we do know the views and positions he took prior to the recent hearings. Judge Roberts opposed efforts to remedy discrimination on the basis of sex and race. He opposed measures to protect voting rights. He denigrated the right to privacy and a woman's right to choose. He wanted to allow Congress to strip away courts' jurisdiction over controversial subjects.

Although he has presented himself as a supporter of judicial restraint, I do not see enough evidence that Judge Roberts would show restraint when his own political commitments are at stake. In light of his past positions, I believe he had an affirmative obligation to make the case to those who might confirm him that he repudiates the positions that he had previously advocated in his professional career. He made a choice and refused to meet that obligation. I cannot support someone who I am not convinced will preserve the liberties and freedoms that are enshrined in our Constitution and our laws.

Please join me in fighting for the principles and values that each of us cherish. Contact your Senators and tell them to vote no on Judge Roberts' nomination.

John

[txindy]

33. Well said. We seem to keep repeating this cycle.

D*mned if they don't and then double-d*mned when they do. :eyes:

Well said, LittleClarkie, and not a ramble to be found. :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[glitch]

34. Republicans are the only ones suffering from black or white mental process

I think if they don't see them on the corporate news they don't think they are doing anything. So sick of it, year after year, the same parroting:
'Where was this Kerry during the campaign?' on cspan, where were you?
'Wish he'd been this passionate during the campaign blah blah blah' whether it's Gore or Kerry, the talking points remain the same. I admit, I do get tired of correcting them.
It's important to remember this is a public forum and not everyone posting here is a democrat, or even progressive.
Legitimate concerns are valid, we're supposed to be involved, but knee jerk one-liner put downs like the ones I noted above just show the poster's ignorance, perhaps agenda.

[LittleClarkie]

38. Thank you for understanding exactly what I was talking about

Yes, legitimate concerns, coherently expressed, are valid, but the not too terribly original one-liner putdowns do indeed get tedious.

I suppose though that folks are still to close to the last election, re: Kerry. So eventually that will probably subside. But I've seen it with other Dems as well. Poor Pelosi. Nobody remembers how she hammered Bush and got slapped by right wing radio for it. We must try to remember past yesterday.

[ElectroPrincess]

48. I'll be totally open and honest with you ...

What I find tedious is the haughty "know it all" behaving people who ORDER us left of center democrats to get in line.

NO, what *you* call Democrats will NOT win in 2006 because you disrespect the base of the party. It's really sad because behaving like we're unwanted step children will no longer SHAME us into going to the polls.

If the leadership of the Democrat(ic) party does not change their strategy and throw a few bones to us liberals, The Democrats will get their a**es politically handed to them come 2006.

I won't shed a tear because people like Joe Biden, Zell Miller and even Diane Feinstein are not speaking for "us liberals."

Nope, we're gone if you don't court us ... but you're afraid that Karl Rove will disrespect you.

You might as well go to the left because the Right Wing will still throw everything at you. Hell, they call Hillary *liberal.* That's HIL-arious. :P

[jmatthan]

35. In the pocket off and/or in bed with corporates

eom

[LittleClarkie]

37. Again, thank you for the example

of what I was talking about.

That was your intention, of course... wasn't it?

[ClassWarrior]

39. rofl

NGU.

[txaslftist]

36. Spot on.

[LittleClarkie]

40. Case in point. Joe Biden says he will not vote for Roberts.

Joe Biden gets a cookie.

Even though, Joe Biden makes my teeth itch.

Credit and positive action will be recognized, even if you're on the very bottom of my list of candidates.

Joe Leiberman speaks up for ANWR and energy independance. Joe Leiberman also gets a cookie, despite the kissy from Bush and all.

[ElectroPrincess]

45. Joe Momentum is IMO a posturing a**hole ... he may change his mind :-)

[blondeatlast]

51. One of our problems is that in the sitch we are in now, we have

to take the little victories. I know precisely what you mean about Biden.

So I celebrate the little victories and try not to nitpick the failures.

[denp54]

41. Where are Democrats?

My question is what are Democrats? What is the Democrat Party?
It certainly isn't the party I knew it for when I was younger.
All hear is from Democrat Party is Raise the Taxes! Raise the Taxes! Hate Bush! Hate Bush! All we hear from the Republican Party lower taxes of the rich! Hate Liberals! Hate Liberals!
These days find myself agreeing more and more with the Libertarian Party! One of its' members has the greatest Income Tax overhaul book that I've ever read.
It say let's just Fair Tax taxes everybody equally and do it at the cash resister. Those in poverty get a tremendous break too as well as the retiree's. So no worry there. Taxes the whole economy equally especially getting some back from the underground economy (drug dealers and other tax cheats).
The book is a terrific read and makes tremendous amount of common since if one reads it with an open mind. I would leave the name except my message would be deleted for advertising.
My 2 cents!
D

[LittleClarkie]

42. FYI, Democratic Party, not Democrat Party

We get a bit tetchy about that.

[ElectroPrincess]

44. They both (Democrat and Democratic Party) - tease -

Are being RUN by corporate gangsters. We must purge the corporate welfare Democrats from the Democrat(ic) party. Both Even! LOL

[ClassWarrior]

46. Yes we must - and the first step is to get involved!

I hope you participate in your county or state party, EP.

NGU.

[ElectroPrincess]

49. I did, but now I'm throwing all I have to the Green Party ...

They speak for me. The Democratic Party went too far to the right for many of us. You folk best prepare to LOSE and LOSE big. Maybe then you will at least come back "to center" with your political views.

And yes, I worked my butt off for the Democrat(ic) <eg> party in the past, but no more until they stop behaving like mild mannered Republicans. The working and middle classes still get screwed due to this unbridled application of corporate welfare and tax cuts for the wealthy.

[ClassWarrior]

52. Bwahahahahahahaha...

How the hell do you expect to "purge the corporate welfare Democrats from the Democratic party" from the Green Party?? How the hell do you expect to get them to "stop behaving like mild mannered Republicans" if you leave the damn party to the mild mannered Republicons??!

:eyes:

Okay, if you don't have what it takes to stand and fight, it's your prerogative to go where you and the choir can sing to one another. Someone strong will pick up your slack for you. Me? I have a country to take back.

NGU.

[ElectroPrincess]

54. I rest my case - see "haughty point" defined above. :P /eom

[ClassWarrior]

56. Wouldn't hold up in a court of law.

I would never tell ANYONE to get in line. As a matter of fact, I said it's fully your prerogative to go somewhere where you'll be comfortable, if you can't take the heat.

I'm about as left as it gets - and I consciously made a decision NOT to become a Green because there are all too few true Progressives in the Dem Party anymore. Talk about "haughty," your "haughty point" makes all kinds of blanket stereotyped assumptions about - well, apparently me, since you feel you "rest your case." Not very Progressive in my book.

NGU.

[ElectroPrincess]

59. IMO "progressive" = Neo-con in drag ... like "The New Wayers"? n/t

[LittleClarkie]

55. Yeppers. Which is why I became a card-carrying Democrat

First of all, I needed to feel like I was doing something to fight the Republicans. Second of all, the only way to change the party is from within.

Hey, I just got here. Not going anywhere.

But, of course, if someone feels that they can work for positive change more effectively in the Green Party than with the Dems, more power to them. The negative attitude and constant bitching isn't helping anyway.

And again, a case in point of what I was talking about, eh?

[Name removed]

57. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ClassWarrior]

58. Who ever disrespected you or called you an idiot? Those are GOP tactics...

...to smear your opponent by twisting their words. Pot meet kettle.

NGU.

[LittleClarkie]

61. Well, you know, if you go far enough to the left

you meet the right coming around the other side. At least that's how I picture the political spectrum.

Sometimes I think Ralph Nader and Pat Buchannan should get together and go bowling.

[ElectroPrincess]

63. Were you NOT the one finding "one liners" tedious? Pot MEET Kettle!

Neither of you are left of center. We all know that. Just admit that you are part of the centrist trend?

[LittleClarkie]

67. Depends on where the center is

Where I live, in freeperville, I'm a flaming liberal.

Depending on who I'm conversing with here, I could be considered any manner of things.

I am a bit to the left of John Kerry. Considering he is the 11th most Liberal Senator overall, that probably makes me fairly liberal. I am to the left of Bill, Hillary, Biden and Joementum. I am to the right of y'all.

[ElectroPrincess]

62. oh now, after the "laugh track" you say what people read is NOT true ...

That's a Right Wing Ploy.

You're just mad because I blew out the "New Way" political love fest. That's cool, I'll beg off. Here's a secret: No one is buying it. And no way in hell, although I'm a Army Veteran, would I vote for Clark for President. Nope, had enough militarization of the government for one century.

But please, go ahead because you do seemingly have the answers?

[LittleClarkie]

60. I see no disrespect in my post

If you feel you can be more effective elsewhere, knock yourself out.

[ElectroPrincess]

64. I was not addressing you ...

You don't have to respond to everyone just because you are the thread starter. Just an FYI, not a "hit."

[LittleClarkie]

65. Perhaps, then, you should not have replied to my post

if you were not addressing me.

[ElectroPrincess]

66. You and I both know I was referring to Class Warrior

Now this conversation is getting a little "old" and I'm going to bed. Have a good time ;)

[LittleClarkie]

68. Then you shouldn't have replied to my post

watch who you're replying to if you want folks to know who you're refering to.

Nighty night "princess."

[ClassWarrior]

70. Save your energy LC...

I'm beginning to believe that dividing Dems and Greens is his/her/its agenda.

NGU.

[blondeatlast]

47. Couldn't agree with you more. Brava! nt