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Karmadillo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-06-03 09:28 PM
Original message
Kucinich opposed the NATO bombing of Serbia
Edited on Tue Oct-07-03 09:37 AM by Skinner
As usual, as with the Patriot Act, the Iraq War Resolution, the $87 billion re-elect George W Bush subsidy, he was out front on the issue. Of course, opposing the bombing of civilians and civilian infrastructure makes him "unelectable".

http://www.progressive.org/kuc899.htm

What I Learned From the War
The Progressive, 1999


IN MY CONGRESSIONAL OFFICE, I read the latest reports concerning a recent Executive Order that hands the CIA a black bag in the Balkans for engineering a military coup in Serbia, for interrupting communications, for tampering with bank accounts, freezing assets abroad, and training the Kosovo Liberation Army (KLA) in terrorist tactics, such as how to blow up buildings.

How this is intended to help establish a democracy in Serbia or Kosovo hasn't yet been explained. Nor has the failure to substantially disarm and demilitarize the KLA been explained. Nor has the reverse ethnic cleansing taking place in Kosovo by the KLA while NATO rules the provinces been explained.

But the extracurricular activity is consistent with NATO's policy of the ends justifying the means, of might makes right, of collective guilt, of retribution upon a civilian population.

<edit>

I strongly objected to the attacks on the Kosovar Albanians. But I believed it was possible to be opposed to Milosevic and also opposed to the bombing. Yet all around me, I could feel the dense illogic of war beginning to grip Washington. It was becoming the Capital of Dichotomized Thinking, split consciousness. Republicans versus Democrats, left versus right thinking, which is the stuff of which wars are made. Of U.S. versus Them: Serbia; of NATO versus Yugoslavia, of NATO interests versus Russian interests. This type of thinking is what makes it possible to defend the human rights of some while depriving others of theirs.

EDITED BY ADMIN: COPYRIGHT

more...

http://www.diaspora-net.org/food4thought/kucinich.htm

Why Is Belgrade a Target?
By DENNIS J. KUCINICH
The Washington Post, April 9, 1999

The world's democracies have a responsibility to relieve the suffering of the people of Kosovo, to insure that the refugees can return to an autonomous nation and to help rebuild the province and prosecute war criminals.

That is why I voted my support for President Clinton's initiatives and for the use of American soldiers in keeping the peace in the region.

Yet NATO is now engaged in a bombing campaign in which the destruction of the civilian infrastructure of Yugoslavia has become part of the strategy to end the war on Kosovo. We say our quarrel is with President Slobodan Milosevic and his army, yet instead of doing all that we can to directly confront that military we are bringing down terror on the Serbian people. What has this bombing accomplished? It has not stopped the ethnic cleansing or the grim procession of hundreds of thousands of refugees.

So I must challenge NATO's justification for its military campaign against civilians -- before we destroy all the bridges in Belgrade and Novi Sad; before we obliterate the power plants, water systems, roads and telecommunications centers that serve civilian populations; before we begin hearing the the phrase "collateral damage" routinely. Otherwise, NATO's actions will destabilize the region for decades to come.

more...







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no name no slogan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-06-03 09:34 PM
Response to Original message
1. Thanks for posting these...
sometimes taking an "unpopular" is STILL the right thing to do.

Kick :kick:
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IranianDemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-06-03 09:36 PM
Response to Original message
2. Deleted because of error.
Edited on Mon Oct-06-03 09:41 PM by IranianDemocrat
Deleted by author-incorrect over-exaggeration.
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hippywife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-06-03 09:38 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. He did authorize
the use of necessary force against the parties responsible for 9/11 before it was even known who was responsible, so I kind doubt your assertion.

Have a great evening! :)
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IranianDemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-06-03 09:40 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. Holy shit that's awesome.
I didn't know, woops. Time to change my message.
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hippywife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-06-03 09:46 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. Thanx
for being such a gent about it. :)
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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-06-03 09:47 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. yes thank you and remember ID
Although he in a way is pacifistic, he has the utter most respect for those who have served including his father and two brothers who served in WWII and Vietnam respectively. Had it not been for a heart condition he himself may have gone, and he was disappointed when he couldnt go.
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dfong63 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-06-03 09:39 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. hey, nice way to dodge the issues
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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-06-03 09:39 PM
Response to Reply #2
7. Its funny you think hes a pacifist
and its not a bad thing at all. You realize a lot of innocents Serbs who werent Milosevic supporters lost their lives. Also he likely would have enlisted in Vietnam btw I would prefer the man with the Gandhi award Kucinich to a general whose views I am not that famliar with and his experience in politics unproven.
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WhoCountsTheVotes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-06-03 09:47 PM
Response to Reply #2
11. Kucinich authorized the war
Your baseless smears of Kucinich are an embarrassment to Clark fans everywhere, as I'm sure you know.

Kucinich said quite clearly he supported action, and authorized military action, against Serbia to halt ethnic cleansing.

Clark wanted ground troops to minimize casualties, but his superiors overruled him. Clark won the war with zero US casualties, which is what he was supposed to do. I certainly can't second guess him about tactics. Liberals who never served will criticize tactics from the sidelines, as usual.

Thank God Kucinich was there to keep an eye on what was happening, and to sound the alarm when civilians were being killed. Clark himself got in trouble for appearing on television and explaining what he was doing, and being the good soldier he supported his superiors and his orders. It's America at work, Kucinich doing his part as loumouthed liberal civilian representative, and Clark doing his job as winning the war however it's done.

The Democratic party will become a majority again when the enlisted military and Kucinich supporters can talk to each other and learn to work together.
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 12:59 AM
Response to Reply #11
29. What if you're both? Like me? Well former enlisted
but I'd be for Kucinich even if I was still in. Some tigers never change their stripes ;)
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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 01:01 AM
Response to Reply #29
31. Ive known that for a while about you
Veterans for Peace isnt it seems to like him also right.
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Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-06-03 09:38 PM
Response to Original message
3. Did he support the ethnic cleansing of....
....Bosnians, Croats and Kosavars? Or was it just something he thought we should ignore?
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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-06-03 09:41 PM
Response to Reply #3
9. He was against the bombing
Edited on Mon Oct-06-03 09:44 PM by JohnKleeb
of course he didnt support the ethnic cleansing, Wellstone opposed the bombing too. He intially supported it to stop the ethnic cleansing then saw what the bombing did to the people and turned against it. I feel so bad about what the bombing did to the area, I always feel bad, Kucinich I read before or after that visited his grandfather's ancestral villege home in Croatia, I would love to the same in Slovenia. http://www.progressive.org/kuc899.htm
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Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-06-03 09:49 PM
Response to Reply #9
13. In other words he'd sit back and do nothing.
Sorry. I'm old enough to remember the last President who did that, Jimmy Carter.

I don't believe we should get involved in bullshit wars like Iraq II or Vietnam but Kucinich solution to any aggression is to hold hands and sing "Give Peace a Chance."
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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-06-03 09:50 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. ok
Look at WCTV's description of what Dennis wanted. He supported it at first because of the ethnic cleansing then opposed it because of the massive bombing of civilians.
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WhoCountsTheVotes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-06-03 10:04 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. Kucinich supported military action
Kucinich authorized military action. I can't prove it, but I bet Kucinich pushed for UN authorization and participation, and I bet Kucinich supported force as a last resort, after all options have been exhausted. No Democrat could do any less.
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 01:19 AM
Response to Reply #15
34. Kucinich & Clark sitting in a tree ...
NOT!
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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 01:30 AM
Response to Reply #34
38. *singing* NOT VERY LIKELY
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el_gato Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 09:00 AM
Response to Reply #13
44. inflammatory whining

Did he say anything about sitting aroung singing "Give Peace a Chance"?
NO, but it didn't stop you from trying to dumb down the discussion to a narrow black and white flame bait fest.

Grow up the world is a little more complicated than that.

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BBradley Donating Member (645 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-06-03 10:05 PM
Response to Reply #3
16. Did they ever find any proof of any ethnic cleansing?
They didn't find one mass grave that I'm aware of.
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 01:00 AM
Response to Reply #3
30. Kucinich is Croat with family over there. Your statement is ridiculous
n/t
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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 01:03 AM
Response to Reply #30
32. He is Croat-Irish technically
and a friendly hello :hi: from another South Slav Irish. I am Slovenian though and they werent affected but we are the same people basically the South Slavs the only things that seperate us are our faith, Croats and Slovenes are Catholics. Glad to see you here Tiniore :hi:.
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 01:19 AM
Response to Reply #32
35. Glad to be here too.... Wanted to get some sleep tonight
but it seems there's no sleep for the warriors lol :)
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-06-03 09:38 PM
Response to Original message
4. Walks the talk. Takes on the issues.
Courage, conviction, consistently at the forefront of the fight.

The real deal!

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Blue_Chill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-06-03 10:08 PM
Response to Original message
17. Knowing he opposed that war makes me dislike him even more
I supported that war and I saw the images of the mass graves. I find those that oppose war at all times to be unfit to govern.
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WhoCountsTheVotes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-06-03 10:13 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. You should try reading the thread again
You post shows that you know little about Kucinich. For instance, you say: "I find those that oppose war at all times to be unfit to govern" I assume you think Kucinich opposes all war at all times. Of course, you're wrong.

What's interesting though, is this statement:

"I supported that war and I saw the images of the mass graves"

Can you point me to info about the mass graves, and any statistics on the number of people killed by Serbian forces? What was the last word on the famous photo of the concentration camp?

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Donna Zen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-06-03 10:32 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. Ethnic cleansing:
Human Rights Watch:

map of rape as ethnic cleansing...this is a pdf file

http://www.hrw.org/reports/2000/fry/kosovorape.pdf

more...

Human Rights Watch began investigating the use of rape and other forms of sexual violence by all sides in the conflict in 1998 and continued to document rape accounts throughout the refugee crisis in 1999. After NATO troops entered Kosovo in June 1999, Human Rights Watch returned to Kosovo to continue researching war crimes, including the use of sexual violence before, during, and after the NATO conflict. In total, Human Rights Watch researchers conducted approximately seven hundred interviews between March and September 1999 on various violations of international humanitarian law.

The research found that rape and other forms of sexual violence were used in Kosovo in 1999 as weapons of war and instruments of systematic "ethnic cleansing." Rapes were not rare and isolated acts committed by individual Serbian or Yugoslav forces, but rather were used deliberately as an instrument to terrorize the civilian population, extort money from families, and push people to flee their homes. Rape furthered the goal of forcing ethnic Albanians from Kosovo.

http://www.hrw.org/reports/2000/fry/
______________________________________________

http://www.state.gov/www/global/human_rights/kosovoii/homepage.html

A central question is the number of Kosovar Albanian victims of Serbian forces in Kosovo. Many bodies were found when KFOR and the ICTY entered Kosovo in June 1999. The evidence is also now clear that Serbian forces conducted a systematic campaign to burn or destroy bodies, or to bury the bodies, then rebury them to conceal evidence of Serbian crimes. On June 4, at the end of the conflict, the Department of State issued the last of a series of weekly ethnic cleansing reports, available at www.state.gov/www/regions/eur/rpt_990604_ksvo_ethnic.html concluding that at least 6,000 Kosovar Albanians were victims of mass murder, with an unknown number of victims of individual killings, and an unknown number of bodies burned or destroyed by Serbian forces throughout the conflict.

On November 10, 1999, ICTY Chief Prosecutor Carla Del Ponte told the U.N. Security Council that her office had received reports of more than 11,000 killed in 529 reported mass grave and killing sites in Kosovo. The Prosecutor said her office had exhumed 2,108 bodies from 195 of the 529 known mass graves. This would imply about 6,000 bodies in mass graves in Kosovo if the 334 mass graves not examined thus far contain the same average number of victims.
_______________________________________________

What is important to remember is that until 1989, Kosovo was an autonomous region. Milosevic desolved their parliament and government. Pristina was the prize because it contains the only mineral wealth in the country. Milosevic passed up many opportunities to settle this differently.
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Old and In the Way Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 12:35 AM
Response to Reply #20
25. Thanks for posting.
I have a lot of respect for Kucinich, but I don't believe he's being well represented in this argument. I guess Kosovo was a "no win" situation, damned if you do, damned if you don't. If we had stayed on the sidelines, how many more people would have been killed?

But we should not be nearly so quick to look at US action in Kosovo and waht was done in Iraq. I think our actions in Kosovo reflected the best intentions and ideals of this country. We didn't go in for any other reason than to stop the Serb aggression. We had no ulterior motives, unlike Iraq. We did what we had to do and left. The region appears to have greatly benefited from the US/UN acion.

We should have gone into Ruwanda too. I think Ruwanda proves the case that sometimes the bigger crime is not to engage....
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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 12:39 AM
Response to Reply #25
26. He just didnt believe in bombing the cities
Edited on Tue Oct-07-03 12:39 AM by JohnKleeb
believe me he wanted to stop what Milosevic was doing. Thanks for being fair on him though despite being a supporter of the action that took place there, others are being judgemental on him. Also on the one poster below saying he failed, you dont have to get your goal pass to do what you believe in. I know thats a cruddy point but by the standards that means those who fought for civil rights and etc early on were wrong too and to say they were wrong is ummw wrong.
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Devils Advocate NZ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 07:33 AM
Response to Reply #25
40. No ulterior motives?
There were all sorts of ulterior motives - from knocking out a powerful leftist (read anti-globalisation) country, to the seizure of natural resources and creation of a MAJOR base in the Balkans.

That is why the US was helping Muslim fundamentalist terrorists to destabilise Yugoslavia for years, just like they did in Afghanistan. After Kosovo, they started to act against Macedonia, until they were caught red-handed.

Remember that? The US supported KLA attacks in Macedonia? That right there is the proof that EVERYTHING the US government and media was saying about Kosovo was an outright LIE. No sooner than the terrorists had won in Kosovo than they (once again with US support) began stirring up trouble in Macedonia, trying to trigger similar anti-terrorist operations. The idea once again was to carry out atttacks ignored by the media, and then when the Macedonian government responded to the attacks a media blitz accusing the Macedonians of ethnic cleansing was supposed to oocur.

In fact it had started to happen when the Macedonian government captured KLA documents including a US supplied map of Macedonia. The US tried to say it had been stolen from Kosovo, but was never able to explain why US troops in Kosovo would need a map of Macedonia.

So the press turned the tables and began pointing out that Macedonia was the victim of cross border attacks coming from the KLA in Kosovo (yes, the "victims" were attacking an innocent neighbour), and what do you know, the supposed ethnic cleansing never occured!

If you are willing to look beyond US government and corporate media reports, you will find all this information out there on the net.

A good place to start in trying to determine the intentions of the US in Kosovo would be to google "DynaCorp" and "Kosovo". You will learn all about the sex slaves being kept by DynaCorp employees and the fact that this was tolerated and possibly even encouraged by the US military.

In fact, Rawanda is the PROOF that there was ulterior motives behind the attack on Serbia. In Rawanda a GENUINE genocidal campaign was occuring, and neither the corporate media nor US government stirred a muscle, because Rawanda didn't have anything they wanted.
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Blue_Chill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-06-03 10:34 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. here's some info for you
Seven to eight thousand Muslims were killed after the Bosnian Serb army seized the UN-declared safe haven of Srebrenica, says Stover. About 200 patients and staff taken from a Vukovar hospital were summarily executed. Stover estimates there are hundreds of mass graves in Bosnia, of which close to 200 have been discovered.




Picture: Forensic anthropologist William Haglund removes a decomposing body from a mass grave in Pilica, Bosnia

source: http://www.berkeley.edu/news/berkeleyan/1998/1209/bosnia.html



Also what wars to DK support?
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 01:21 AM
Response to Reply #17
36. Which war are you talking about? (NT)
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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 01:29 AM
Response to Reply #36
37. Kosovo
Thats what hes talking about.
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 08:36 AM
Response to Reply #17
42. A new *meme* for you?
Or just a falsehood? Opposing a specific war is not opposing war at all times. If you are going to attribute a position to a candidate, post a link where he is states specifically that he "opposes war at all times." And don't ignore the specific instance/s where he has cast a vote in support of a military response.

Personally, I find the idea that a leader, a person who "governs" a large group of people, uses civility, teamwork, negotiation, respect, and partnership with the rest of the world as preferred methods of conflict resolution to be highly refreshing. I think we need it, not just at the national level, but in our families and communities on a daily basis, too. Defense should be just that; defense. Not offense.
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-06-03 10:11 PM
Response to Original message
18. And once again proving that he is ineffective
He hasn't been very successful in convincing his fellow Democrats in Congress to follow his lead. If he isn't successful there why give him a promotion?
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Karmadillo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-06-03 10:52 PM
Response to Reply #18
22. Interesting analysis, but individual Representatives tend
to find it difficult to control US policy from the House. Presidents usually have slightly greater powers of persuasion. If Kucinich were President, we wouldn't have gone to war in Iraq and we wouldn't be preparing to spend another $87 billion we don't have to finance it (in addition to the billions already spent), so the US would be a lot better off than it is today. Sounds effective enough to me.
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-06-03 11:03 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. Forget foreign policy -- what sucess has he had in Congress on anything?
How many bills have become law that he introduced (not counting noncontroversial bills like naming post offices)? How many amendments has he offered to bills that have become law?
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Karmadillo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-06-03 11:32 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. Well, you can google as well as I can, but here's a head start
regarding the bills he's introduced:

http://www.house.gov/apps/list/press/oh10_kucinich/~list.html

Let us know what you find out. Thanks.
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 06:26 AM
Response to Reply #24
39. Lots of talk but no results
Except for getting some federal pork for his district, he hasn't had any success in having any of his bills or amandments passed. If he can't succeed in the House, why give him a promotion?
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Karmadillo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 08:09 AM
Response to Reply #39
41. Hey! I've got a secret for you! But you have to promise not to tell anyone
The Republicans have controlled the House since 1994. They (and their conservative allies in the Democratic Party) are not exactly famous for passing the kind of progressive legislation Kucinich proposes.

Do you object to the following bills he's introduced? Would you expect a Republican controlled House to pass them?

Kucinich Introduces Bill To Repeal Sections Of USA PATRIOT Act

Kucinich Introduces Bill To Provide Universal Prekindergarten

Kucinich Introduces Bills to Label Genetically Engineered Food and Protect Consumers

There are lots more if you want to search using the link I gave you, not that you will. I guess you'd like him more if he had proposed legislation that would give lots of tax cuts to the rich, degrade the environment, and authorize a war of aggression against Iraq. Those sorts of things seem to get passed with no problems.
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 09:16 AM
Response to Reply #41
45. He can't even get fellow Democrats to support his bills
His bill regarding the Patriot act only has 21 Cosponsors.

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/D?d108:19:./temp/~bdd25a:@@@L&summ2=m&|/bss/d108query.html|

And the of the six bills he has introduced on Genetically Engineered Food, the most cosponsors that any of them have is 19.

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/D?d108:12:./temp/~bdd25a:@@@L&summ2=m&|/bss/d108query.html|

Finally, the bill on Universal Prekindergarten only has 31 cosponsors.

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/D?d108:18:./temp/~bdd25a::|/bss/d108query.html|

There are 205 Democrats in the House (206 if you count independant Bernie Sanders) but Kucinich has only been able to get a small percantage of them to back his bills. If he can't get his fellow Democrats to back his ideas, how will he get any Republicans?
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RichM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 12:49 AM
Response to Reply #18
27. This logic would "prove" that Byrd & Kennedy were "ineffective" in
"convincing their fellow Democrats in the Senate to follow their lead" on the IWR, since most Senate Dems voted for the war. In fact, your logic would "prove" that anyone who's EVER in the minority is "ineffective."

Is that a position you really want to identify yourself with?
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 01:18 AM
Response to Reply #18
33. Not much for facts are you? DK fought successfully to end it
Edited on Tue Oct-07-03 01:33 AM by Tinoire
Lawless War: The War Against Yugoslavia as a Harbinger of an Insecure Future for the People’s of the World

By Michael Ratner, attorney and vice-president of the Center for Constitutional Rights

On March 24, 1999, U.S. Armed Forces, along with military forces from the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) began massive `air strikes against the sovereign nation of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. President Clinton asserted that he ordered United States forces into action “pursuant to my constitutional authority to conduct U.S. foreign relations and as Commander-in-chief and Chief Executive.” Neither President Clinton nor NATO articulated authority for the bombing under the United Nations Charter. Rather, they claimed NATO had authority itself and, at least, implied, that the war was undertaken for humanitarian purposes to stop ongoing human rights violations.

<snip>

The sixty day termination date passed almost unnoticed by the press, Congress and the pundits. Only Congressman Tom Campbell, Congressman Dennis Kucinich and a few others brought up the issue and no one paid attention.
It was a remarkable moment. Here was a statute, the WPR, which had been written because of the debacle of Viet-Nam; it was meant to keep the U.S. out of wars that did not have congressional approval. One could say the statute was literally written in the blood of the Americans and Vietnamese who died in that war. And now the statute was treated as nought; as if nothing was learned from the Viet Nam war. The bombing of Yugoslavia was continuing; people were being killed and the country was being destroyed; and it was all a clear violation of U.S. law.

A few courageous members of Congress decided to take the issue of the illegality of the war to the federal courts. The leader of this group was Congressman Tom Campbell and he gathered a dozen or so Republicans to join with him. He asked the Center for Constitutional Rights to bring the litigation on his behalf. The Center had brought a number of lawsuits previously challenging illegal uses of U.S. military force in Grenada, El Salvador, Nicaragua, Panama, and Iraq. All of these suits had been against Republican presidents and the majority of not all of the congressmen plaintiffs had been Democrats. Now that the shoe was on the other foot, and a Democratic president was unilaterally going to war, Democratic plaintiffs were hard to come by. Many Democrats did not like the war, thought it was illegal, but did not want to buck the President and say so publicly whether by way of speeches or by joining a lawsuit. It was an amazing demonstration of political opportunism. On the issue of should the U.S. go to war, probably the most fundamental and important decision a politician can make, these Democrats sold out. The only two Democrats to join the suit were Dennis Kucinich and March Kaptur.

<snip>

Conclusion

The unsanctioned and illegal war against Yugoslavia was a watershed event that is a harbinger of an insecure future for countries and peoples that find themselves in disagreement with the policies and aims of the United States and its NATO allies. Apparently, the United States and NATO now believe international restraints on force and the United Nations can be dispensed with. When and where to use military force will be decided by the United States and NATO. The world can look forward to more killings and devastation, like that in Yugoslavia, all in the name of human rights. It is not a pretty picture and represents a major retreat from the hopes that we could one day grow up in world free from war.

On the domestic front, the retreat from the principle that the people through Congress, should control the use of military force, appears complete. We now face the prospect of war at the behest of one person–the President.

There is an obvious parallel in terms of what has occurred domestically and internationally. Those institutions, the Congress and the Security Council (imperfect as they are), that were required to approve the use of military force have been bypassed. To to the extent they made the decision to use force more democratic and more difficult, that is no longer true. We have entered a very dangerous period. Power and might rule.

http://www.humanrightsnow.org/kosovo.htm


But on the floor of the House last week, the attitude of Democratic House leaders wasn't so flip -- especially when it came to the 213-213 vote on continuing airstrikes."The lobbying on this was some of the most intense that I've ever seen," says Rep. Dennis Kucinich, D-Ohio, who voted against the measure. "I think people were stunned that this thing went down."

Kucinich says that there was a secret reason House leaders lobbied so intensely: for constitutional reasons, the White House wanted to get some legislative record of the House signing off on the war. "This wasn't a simple matter of the Democratic Caucus endorsing the president's actions," he says. "It had tremendous consequence ... In looking at it further, I realized that the president would, in fact, be empowered to conduct war without further restraint by Congress."

Despite the fact that President Clinton wrote the House a letter on the day of the April 28 vote assuring members that he wouldn't send ground troops without checking with Congress, Kucinich says that there were signals that the White House was planning on using the vote in support of airstrikes as a future blank check.

"They were passing out on floor to Democrats before the vote," Kucinich reports. But then, Kucinich heard that White House spokesman Joe Lockhart had told reporters that, were the vote to go the way the White House wanted, the president wouldn't be required to seek congressional approval on any further actions in Kosovo. "We'll talk to leaders, but we won't have to go back," Kucinich paraphrases. "So Lockhart had already nuanced it into something that was less than what the letter said."

<snip>
Not yet anyway. But then there's Kucinich and a small group of congressmen, led by Rep. Tom Campbell, R-Calif. They're not so willing to hand off the power "to declare war," as declared in Article I, Section 8. And now they're taking the president to court to get this right back. The manner in which the Clinton administration has launched the NATO military action is, indeed, consistent with how every president since Franklin Roosevelt -- with the exception of George Bush, who belatedly sought a resolution to support the Gulf War -- has waged war: by ignoring the role of Congress to declare it.

<snip>

Campbell and Kucinich didn't buy that. They enlisted 15 other members of Congress -- including rabid Clinton haters Bob Barr, R-Ga., Philip Crane, R-Ill., and Dan Burton, R-Ill. -- as well as one other Ohio Democrat, Marcy Kaptur. Then they sought the legal counsel of Michael Ratner of New York's Center for Constitutional Rights. Last Friday, they filed their lawsuit to get District Court Judge Greene to declare the current military action unconstitutional.

<snip>

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/1999/05/06/war/print.html

---------------------------------
<snip>
I WORKED WITH several members of Congress, building opposition to giving the President war powers authority. The decisive moment was April 28. On that day, the House of Representatives voted, in a test of the War Powers Act, not to give the Administration full authority in the war, including the ability to use ground troops. This single vote may well have been the turning point of the war. The White House and Democratic leaders held a relentless series of meetings to lobby for the war, including small focus groups with members of Congress, caucus meetings, and whip meetings to organize floor counts and check and recheck the vote. They were stunned when the vote ended in a tie, defeating the measure and forcing the Administration to look toward diplomatic channels to end the conflict.

<snip>

One of the myths of this war is that it was won by air power. Peace activists ought to demand that Congress appropriate money for a strategic bombing survey. This survey, conducted by an independent, non-defense-related organization, should examine where the bombs fell, as distinct from their intended targets. It would analyze the purpose of the specific bombing campaigns and whether the purpose was accomplished. For instance, NATO bombing was supposed to cripple the Serbian military. A strategic bombing survey would show that nothing of the sort happened.

A classic maneuver for politicians caught in a foreign policy morass is to declare victory and get out. In Kosovo, the President and Secretary of State have declared a NATO victory and are staying. Troops will be there to ensure the KLA has a shot at independence--circumstances that will only bring the people of Kosovo more violence. What did we win? We won more war.

NATO's victory talk only sets the stage for the next war, creates a false sense of security about its power, puts faith in arms instead of negotiation, and covers up the endless series of blunders in the execution of the war.

http://www.progressive.org/kuc899.htm

----------------------------------

Congressman Kucinich was one of the leading Democrats in opposition to the Balkan war and to NATO's bombing strategy. On April 28, 1999, Congress voted overwhelmingly against declaring war on Yugoslavia (H.J. Res 44). Congressman Kucinich was also instrumental in the defeat of a bill (S.Con.Res. 21) that would have legally sanctioned the Administration to wage a larger war. The resolution was defeated in a 213-213 tie vote. As a result, the War Powers Resolution's restriction on the length of an unauthorized military campaign remained in place, and was one factor leading to the war’s quick end.

On April 30, 1999, a bipartisan coalition of Members of Congress, including Congressman Kucinich, filed a lawsuit to compel the President to follow the Constitution and halt U.S. armed forces from engaging in military action in Yugoslavia unless Congress declared war or granted the President specific statutory authority.

http://www.house.gov/kucinich/issues/internationalrelations.htm


----------------------------------
TOM CAMPBELL ET AL.
V.
WILLIAM JEFFERSON CLINTON


UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA



TOM CAMPBELL, Member,
U.S. House of Representatives,
2442 Rayburn House Office Bldg.
Washington, DC 20515;

DENNIS KUCINICH, Member
U.S. House of Representatives,
1730 Longworth House Office Bldg.,
Washington, DC 20515;


BOB BARR, Member,
U.S. House of Representatives
1207 Longworth House Office Bldg.,
Washington, DC 20515;

ROSCOE BARTLETT, Member,
U.S. House of Representatives,
2412 Rayburn House Office Bldg.,
Washington, DC 20515;

DAN BURTON, Member,
U.S. House of Representatives,
2185 Rayburn House Office Bldg.,
Washington, DC 20515;

JOHN COOKSEY, Member,
U.S. House of Representatives,
317 Cannon House Office Bldg.
Washington, DC 20515;

PHILIP CRANE, Member
233 Cannon House Office Bldg.,
Washington, DC 20515;

WALTER JONES, Member,
U.S. House of Representatives,
Washington, DC 20515;

MARCY KAPTUR, Member,
U.S. House of Representatives,
2366 Rayburn House Office Bldg.,
Washington, DC 20515;

DONALD MANZULLO, Member,
U.S. House of Representatives,
409 Cannon House Office Bldg.,
Washington, DC 20515;


CHARLIE NORWOOD, Member,
U.S. House of Representatives,
1707 Longworth House Office Bldg.,
Washington, DC 20515;

RON PAUL, Member,
U.S. House of Representatives,
203 Cannon House Office Bldg.
Washington, DC 20515;

TOM PETRI, Member,
U.S. House of Representatives,
2462 Rayburn House Office Bldg.
Washington, DC 20515;

MARSHALL SANFORD, Member,
U.S. House of Representatives,
1233 Longworth House Office Bldg.,
Washington, DC 20515;

JOE SCARBOROUGH, Member,
U.S. House of Representatives,
127 Cannon House Office Bldg.,
Washington, DC 20515;

BOB SCHAFFER, Member,
U.S. House of Representatives,
212 Cannon House Office Bldg.,
Washington, DC 20515;

THOMAS TANCREDO, Member,
U.S. House of Representatives,
1123 Longworth House Office Bldg.,
Washington, DC 20515;

Plaintiffs,

- vs. -

WILLIAM JEFFERSON CLINTON,
President of the United States,
1600 Pennsylvania Avenue NW,
Washington, DC 20500,

Defendant.


COMPLAINT FOR DECLARATORY RELIEF

PRELIMINARY STATEMENT

1. In this action seventeen members of Congress seek declaratory relief declaring that the Defendant, the President of the United States, is unconstitutionally continuing an offensive military attack by United States Armed Forces against the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia without obtaining a declaration of war or other explicit authority from the Congress of the United States as required by Article I, Section 8, Clause 11 of the Constitution, and despite Congress' decision not to authorize such action.

2. Plaintiffs also seek a declaration that a report pursuant to Section 1543(a)(1) of the War Powers Resolution was required to be submitted on March 26, 1999, within 48 hours of the introduction into hostilities in the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia of United States Armed Forces. Additionally, Plaintiffs seek a declaration that, pursuant to Section 1544(b) of the Resolution, the President must terminate the use of United States Armed Forces engaged in hostilities against the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia no later than sixty calendar days after March 26, 1999. The President must do so unless the Congress declares war or enacts other explicit authorization, or has extended the sixty day period, or the President determines that thirty additional days are necessary to safely withdraw United States Armed Forces from combat.

FACTS

8. On March 24, 1999, United States Armed Forces at the direction of the Defendant began massive air strikes in the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.

9. On March 26, 1999, the President submitted a report to the Speaker of the House of Representatives and the President pro tempore of the Senate stating that United States Armed Forces began a series of air strikes in the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. In the report the President states that he is "providing this report as part of any efforts to keep Congress fully informed, consistent with the War Powers Resolution." The report states that to "limit his ability to make war . . . . United States and NATO forces have targeted the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia government's integrated air defense systems, military and security police command and control elements, and military and security police facilities and infrastructure. United States naval ships and aircraft and U.S. Air Force aircraft are participating in these operations."

10. Administration officials have stated that a substantial and sustained air campaign is ongoing against the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.

11. Between March 24, 1999, and April 28, 1999, United States and allied aircraft flew over 11,500 sorties over the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, an average of approximately 350 sorties per day. During the same period, the United States and allied aircraft launched over 4,400 confirmed air strikes on Yugoslavia territory, an average of over 100 per day. United States Armed Forces also launched over 180 cruise missiles against Yugoslavia during this time period. The United States has tens of thousands of military personnel involved in the military operations against Yugoslavia.

12. Administration officials state that it is likely that the current hostilities will be protracted. In testimony before Congress on April 21, 1999, Secretary of State Madeleine Albright, referring to the hostilities against Yugoslavia, stated that "As the President and our military leaders have made clear, this struggle may be long." On April 29, 1999, President Clinton stated that the air attacks are likely to continue for many months.

13. To support an expansion of the U.S. air offensive over Yugoslavia, President Clinton authorized the Pentagon to summon as many as 33,102 reservists to active duty. Defendant's decision represented the largest activation of reservists since the 1991 Persian Gulf War against Iraq. This call up was in part necessary to increase the number of United States aircraft involved in the Yugoslav operation to almost 1,000.

14. United States officials have stated that the air attack against Yugoslavia will escalate in the coming weeks. U.S. General Wesley Clark, the NATO Commander, stated on April 27, 1999, that the air strikes thus far have "been only a fraction of what is to come."

15. On April 28, 1999, the U.S. House of Representatives decided not to authorize the President of the United States to conduct military air operations and missile strikes against the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. The House of Representatives defeated by a vote of 213 to 213 S. Con. Res. 21 which would have authorized such military operations.

16. On April 28, 1999, the U.S. House of Representatives, by a vote of 427 to 2 determined not to declare war by defeating H. J. Res. 44 which would have declared war against Yugoslavia.

17. The Plaintiffs are Democratic and Republican members of Congress who voted against S. Con. Res. 21 or H. J. Res. 44 of the 106th Congress.

http://www.humanrightsnow.org/CCR_AWL/tom_campbell_et_al.htm


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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 08:43 AM
Response to Reply #33
43. Well, Tinoire, it doesn't really seem to be about facts.
They seem to be irrelevant. Recently, I've read several posts by a handful of posters...the point seems to be, "We don't like him, and we don't have any real reason, so we're going to make some up." Seriously. Posts that claim to agree with DK on all the issues, but support someone else because "I don't like him." Posts scrambling desperately to manufacture something to dislike him over. No need for facts, just smears. Why?

For people who are convinced he can't win anyway, why the need to go to such lengths?

Thank you for pointing out the facts in this instance.

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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 09:24 AM
Response to Reply #43
46. It's hysterical to watch them make such fools of themselves!
always good to have the entertainment though.
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 07:58 PM
Response to Reply #46
47. True.
Entertainment can be a good thing. :hi:
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FDRrocks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 12:52 AM
Response to Original message
28. Go Dennis!
:)
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