Spill your guts on Celsius 41.11.

[Massacure]

In social studies we are going to watch both Fahrenheit 9/11 and Celsius 41.11. I haven't seen either, what should I expect?

[TallahasseeGrannie]

1. A very interesting few days. n/t

[phantom power]

2. I saw F911.

I think it was very effective at depicting some of the ugly realities of the Iraq war. It showed some of the more unsavory recruiting tactics of the military. Maybe a good thing for high-schoolers to see...

[Zynx]

3. Celsius 41.11 is right-wing dreck.

[whistle]

4. Is that middel school social studies or high school social studies?

[Massacure]

10. World Issues in high school.

It's an elective run by the social studies department.

[SalmonChantedEvening]

5. Exploding neocon blood vessels n/t

[bigbrother05]

6. You need to watch

Power of Nightmares. It is more historical, relating to the ideology of this administration.

[FreedomAngel82]

8. Oh yes

Very good. You can see F911 for free at http://www.informationclearinghouse.info Hey, at least they're showing both!

[SlipperySlope]

7. About F911

F911 is a good piece of film making, and an effective piece of political propaganda. However, the viewer should be aware that Moore is attempting to manipulate you to make conclusions that may not be true.

I'm probably going to get sticks thrown at me for pointing this out, but in my opinion Moore's technique is dishonest. At least his heart is in the right place.

Practically every single thing that Michael Moore says in F911 is a literal fact. He strings these facts together in a way that attempts to lead you to certain conclusions, but those conclusions themselves may not be correct.

Example 1: Michael Moore and another individual are standing in front of the Saudi Embassy, filming an interview. A uniformed Secret Service officer comes up to Moore to ask him some questions. Michael Moore (in voiceover) says "Even though we were nowhere near the White House, for some reason the Secret Service had shown up to ask us what we were doing standing across the street from the Saudi embassy."

In this scene, Moore wants to imply that it would be odd for the Secret Service to be there, and that there is some special protection being extended by the President to the Saudis. Note that he doesn't actually say that, but he leads you to conclude it yourself.

What he doesn't tell you is that since 1991, the Secret Service has had the responsibility to patrol the embassy district and to respond to any calls for assistance from embassy personnel. It would have been odd for any law enforcement agency other than the Secret Service to investigate a report of two men filming an embassy building.

Example 2: In another scene where Moore wants you to perceive that the Saudis received special treatment, he says "At least six private jets and nearly two dozen commercial planes carried the Saudis and the Bin Ladens out of the U.S. after September 13th. In all, 142 Saudis, including 24 members of the bin Laden family, were allowed to leave the country."

What he doesn't tell you is that September 13th was the day that commercial flight resumed in the United States. The fact that 142 Saudis flew "after September 13th" suggests they got the same treatment as everybody else. If they had flown before September 13th, then we would have had something.

Judge the movie for yourself. I think Moore does a masterful job of manipulating people into believing things he doesn't actually say.

As far as C.41.11 goes, I haven't heard anything good about it in the reviews that I've read. I think it is guilty of even more blatant manipulation than F9.11, and is mostly just pointless ranting.

[frylock]

11. commercial flights resumed, private flights didn't..

from the 9/11 Timeline:


September 13, 2001: Saudi Royals Fly to Kentucky in Violation of Domestic Flight Ban Complete 911 Timeline


After a complete air flight ban in the US began during the 9/11 attacks, some commercial flights begin resuming this day. However, all private flights are still banned from flying. Nonetheless, at least one private flight carrying Saudi royalty takes place on this day. And in subsequent days, other flights carry royalty and bin Laden family members. These flights take place even as fighters escort down three other private planes attempting to fly. Most of the Saudi royals and bin Ladens in the US at the time are high school or college students and young professionals. The first flight is a Lear Jet that leaves from a private Raytheon hangar in Tampa, Florida, and takes three Saudis to Lexington, Kentucky. Prince Bandar, the Saudi ambassador to the US who is so close to the Bush family that he is nicknamed “Bandar Bush,” pushes for and helps arrange the flights at the request of frightened Saudis. For two years, this violation of the air ban is denied by the FAA, FBI, and White House, and decried as an urban legend except for one article detailing them in a Tampa newspaper. Finally, in 2003, counterterrorism “tsar” Richard Clarke confirms the existence of these flights, and Secretary of State Powell confirms them as well. However, the White House remains silent on the matter. Officials at the Tampa International Airport finally confirm this first flight in 2004. But whether the flight violated the air ban or not rests on some technicalities that remain unresolved. The Saudis are evacuated to Saudi Arabia over the next several days (see September 14-19, 2001).

http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/timeline.jsp?timeline=complete_911_timeline&startpos=1100#a091301phantomflight

[SlipperySlope]

12. charter = commercial

Not this dead horse again...

That site fails to make the distinction between "private" and "charter" flights. Charter flights were lumped with commercial flights, and resumed on the 13th. The flight in question was a charter flight, and would have been allowed that morning.

Or so I recall.

[tsuki]

9. 41.11 is boring. eom