I need to respond to a freep about late-term abortion

[question everything]

Some months ago, perhaps even last year, someone posted an excellent explanation that the fetus is dead, that the term "partial-birth" is just a flaming one to charge the troops.

Can someone direct me a similar explanation? The freeps claim that "80% are elective" which is idiotic. I cannot imagine any woman going through with a pregnancy for, say 8 months, and then say Oops..

[thefloyd]

1. yeah

Ask them why bombing innocents in iraq is not abortion

[SidDithers]

2. Ask them to provide a source for the 80% number...

I doubt they'll be able to find one.

Sid

[BurtWorm]

15. They'll cite a Jack Chick comic.

:scared:

[question everything]

34. Seems that this is the source - a controversial JAMA article

by M. LeRoy Sprang, MD; Mark G. Neerhof, DO (DO???)

(thank you, Eileen)

http://eileen.undonet.com/Main/PBAinfo/cv80000x.htm


Vol. 280, pp. 744-747, Aug. 26, 1998

Rationale for Banning Abortions Late in Pregnancy

Dayton, Ohio, physician Martin Haskell, MD, who had performed more than 700 partial-birth abortions, stated that most of his abortions are elective in that 20- to 24-week range and that "probably 20% are for genetic reasons, and the other 80% are purely elective."


One of the letters, by Dr. Jane Hodgson of St Paul, MN had the following comment:

Drs Sprang and Neerhof have written an article that is a treatise against abortion, not a scientific contribution. Many of the references are citations to lay or newspaper articles rather than to scientific literature. No references are made to any research work of the authors. In describing the risks of an intact D&X, the authors use a quote that refers to a full-term breech delivery from a chapter in Williams Obstetrics, a text with little reference to abortion.5 The authors appear to have had little or no practical experience in the field of abortion.

[Daphne08]

3. I cannot believe any woman would abort a LIVE baby

at 8 months! I just cannot see that happening, and I cannot believe anyone would believe that nonsense.

Sorry, but I don't have any links... just opinion.

[spinbaby]

4. Depends on what you mean by "elective"

You can have an "elective" abortion of a fetus with severe birth defects.

[murielm99]

5. My daughter had statistics for Wisconsin for the last three years

she was in college there. There were SIX late term abortions for those three years. Two a year!

So, were 80% of those six abortions elective? Does this idiot know how few late term abortions there are every year, in the whole country? Where does he get his figures?

When I went into labor the first time, I told my husband, "I changed my mind. I don't want to do this. Let's go home and not have kids." It was a joke. We both laughed. The doctor laughed, too.

How many doctors would perform a late-term abortion on a viable fetus because of Oops? Let him find some of those docs.

[Mr_Spock]

6. Tell the freep you'll gladly shove a fetus down their throats if they wish

Who gives a flying fuck what freeps think or hear? I thought late term abortion was illegal anyway - see how uninformed I am!

[whatever4]

7. Ask them if they have any number

for the numbers of women in the last trimester that lose their baby due to violence caused by the father/boyfriend? Chances are, they don't have any idea how those numbers compare. Though the number of women attacked during pregnancy is, last I heard, a fairly high statistical risk, for expectant mothers. It remains immaterial to the abortion abolitionists.

I'd say, since they don't know how many women abort "electively" compared to how many die over violence...their entire argument about saving the babies is flawed from the start.

I'd leave it at that, until they can address the question. They want laws to save babies? Prove it's the best way to save the most babies then.

[KyndCulture]

8. Late Term abortion is anything after 20-22 weeks.

It doesn't always mean 8 mos. It refers to the Dilation and Extraction procedure.

[Eileen]

30. NO IT DOES NOT.

You're another victim of the Anti Abortion Propaganda Industry.

Pregnancy is divided into three stages called "terms" or "trimesters"

The first stage is from nidation to 13.3 weeks after the last menstrual period.

The second stage; mid term; or mid trimester, runs from 13.3 to 26.6 weeks LMP.

The "third trimester" ot the "late term" runs from 26.6 weeks to the end of the pregnancy at ~40 weeks for an average human pregnancy.

Physicians sometimes refer to abortions performed up to 12 LMPcweeks as "early abortions' and to those performed after week 12 or particularly after week 16 as "later abortions. The AAPI have exploited this similar term to produce an equivocation around the time abortions are performed.

Keep in mind that only aproximately 1.2% of all abortions in the USA are performed after the 20th week LMP and less than 0.01% are performed in the last trimester or are late term abortions (LTA).

I have challenged the upper echelons of the Anti Abortion Movement for some years now to either provide the names of women and physicians who have had LTAs where the life of the woman was not severely compromised or the fetus exhibited an anomaly incompatible with life whare there were no legal proceedings taken against either the physician or both. No such case has ever been cited in the past 12 years.

- Eileen`s always in process page -


Eileen

[TNOE]

31. Wow -

Welcome to DU Eileen!!! :hi:
Haven't see you here before - bookmarked your page - thanks.

[question everything]

32. A wonderful page. Thank you.

Who is this Dr. Pamela Smith,Senate Hearing Record,p.82, Partial Birth Abortion Ban Medical Testimony saying that 80% are elective, and, again, what did she mean by these terms?

[skygazer]

9. Make them prove THEIR points to you

We always get sucked into these things where we do all the research and provide all the facts to these morans who just pull figures out of the air and bash us over the head with them. Don't allow it - make them provide facts and proof of their position - when they can't, simply shrug and tell them they need to educate themselves.

[question everything]

13. That's true. There is upcoming election where one is a woman (R)

who is pro-choice and they are scared - justifiably so - that she will get the votes of democrats and of independents, for her to at least win the primaries as the Republican candidate. So whenever they can refer to her as a "baby killer" they gladly do so.

[KyndCulture]

10. Well that really depends on what is referred to as "elective"

You can ask me, I had this procedure in 2003 at 23 weeks and it was considered "elective" but I have cervical cancer and there was a greater than 75% chance I would have died, so I "elected" not to die.

Your freeper asshat is totally wrong.

[question everything]

17. I am so sorry to hear this

I hope that you caught this in time to start aggressive treatment.

Yes, this was one of my points - that they (always men, of course) would rather let the woman die.

[KyndCulture]

22. Absolutely they'd rather let a woman die.

That is why it doesn't bother me in the slightest to tell this story. They don't get it. They never will get it. No it wasn't 100% chance that I would bleed to death, but being almost 40 years old with two teenage kids who needed their mother. There was never a question in my mind, I have no guilt about it, no remorse. It was a medical procedure like any other medical procedure. It was the right thing to do, and thank god it was completely legal.

However, only one doctor in my state performs this procedure and I will tell you that I was given a fake cast on my arm after I exited her medical complex so that the freeper asshole idiots outside couldn't tell which doctors office I came from.

I value my life more than just an fetus factory and that is something they will never understand.

So yes, this was an "elective" late term abortion in strictest sense of the words. And there are MANY others like me out there. If we take the stigma off late term abortion and NEVER EVER use the words partial birth abortion (that does NOT exist) then we can maybe get a dialogue going about the subject.

[question everything]

25. That's right. One of their comment was

"if the fetus is dead" than why is the majority of Americans are opposed to the procedure? And, of course, they are because the karl Rove machine was manipulating and flaming the topic.

I think that women like you, who did have late term abortion did testify before the Senate but it did not help. Or, rather, this may have been during the Clinton administrating when we had a friend in the White House.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

11. All the late-term abortions I've ever heard of in real life have occurred

because the mother's life was in danger or because the fetus was already dead or so deformed that it wouldn't have lived anyway.

Tuesday's New York Times carried the story of a woman who underwent a late-term abortion (30 weeks) because the fetus had been strangled by its own umbilical cord.

By the way, one of the late-term abortions to save the mother's life was performed on a friend of my mother's in the 1940s. It was hardly a careless decision for the woman in question, because in those days (who knows if the same would be true with current medical science?) the doctors told her that another pregnancy would kill her, so she never had any children.

A woman would have to be some kind of sociopath to abort a late-term pregnancy just for the hell of it, and she'd have to find a doctor who was another kind of sociopath to agree to it.

[delen]

12. I worked in

OB/GYN for 4 years and I've only know of 3 late term abortions, in all 3 cases pre-natal care was started late, after 20 weeks and in all 3 cases there were serious birth defects. In 2 the defect was something called trisomy 13 which involves an extra chromosome on the the 13th pair of genes and is more than 80% fatal during the first year of life. Those infants hat survive have severe mental retardation (almost vegetative) and severe physical deformities.
The 3rd case it was found that the babies brain tissue was developing on the out side surface of its skull.
All 3 of these were "elective" if you could call it that under the circumstances.

[Thtwudbeme]

14. in 14 years in the medical profession, I NEVER saw, or heard, of a single

partial birth abortion performed. Ever.

This is a load of shit. Even the name, "partial birth abortion" is a load of shit; doesn't exist.

A late term abortion is usually performed to save the mother's life, or because something is horribly wrong with the fetus.

Republicans are so full of shit, I can't stand it.

Please look it up; I can't provide links for you right now, but you will see what I am writing about.

Stephanie

[gollygee]

19. I am friends with an labor/delivery nurse

who worked for 30 years in the field and saw it performed twice. Both times to save the life of the mother and the fetus had a terrible abnormality (the two issues were related).

[Thtwudbeme]

21. That sounds about right to me;

my understanding is that when it does have to be done, it is horrifying for the family, AND medical personnel.

[radwriter0555]

24. PBA in fact, doesn't actually exist. Just because some doctor SAYS it can

be done, doesn't mean it ever has, or ever will be.

It's just more BS from the freepers, who'd rather slaughter iraqis and drown black people while they're saving all those unwanted 'babies'...

[question everything]

27. And, it is not as if they will stand in line to adopt

the severely sick babies if pregnancies will be carried to term.

Yes, I wish that we counter them with the correct terminology and for every "graphic" description they provide of the procedure, we can do the same with the life of such severely sick babies.

And it is not just babies. I think that I will post it - a recent story in the Wall Street Journal - about the difficulties to take care of adult autistic and other dependent children whose parents are getting old. The complete lack of homes and of resources to care for them.

Oh, forgot, the resources went to fight Iraq and to give tax cut for the wealthy.

[gollygee]

16. 80% ??

It might be that in 80% of cases it's due to severe fetal abnormalities and/or severe health consequences to the mother, and the other 20% of the time it's because continuing the pregnancy would specifically kill the mother. I have no idea where else that 80% number could possibly come from. Do you call that elective? Because I certainly don't.

[KyndCulture]

23. No, but the freepers do call that elective.

If it's not 100% sure chance you are gonna die, then it's "elective"

as in I "elected" not to die.

[Maru Kitteh]

33. I carried to almost 5 months a complete tragedy

I started experiencing some discomfort and cramping so they did a sonogram. This was a long time ago, and I was poor, they didn't do them routinely then.

I was carrying a mass with no discernible features other than a partial spinal column and a deformed but functioning heart. Partial limbs and organs existed in twisted and inappropriate orders and places. I heard the words from the doctor like he was speaking to me in the worlds longest hallway. I had diapers ready in my closet. One lung outside the mass. Baby shoes on the shelf. No clear skull structure. All those maternity clothes. Hind-brain only structure found near the spinal cord. I wonder if it was a boy or a girl.

My life was not in danger. These freeper FUCKS would have me carry that nightmare to delivery. FUCK THEM and the self righteous windshield cowboy they rode in on.

[question everything]

35. I am so sorry about your loss. How terrible it must have been to go

through the whole process and the empty feeling after that.

I hope that you have accepted that tragedy and managed to move on with your life.

Of course, the freepers will find one excuse or the other to justify their position. This is why it is so important for us to familiarize ourselves with their claims and their "proof" like the Sprang and Neerhof (who is not even an MD) article in JAMA http://eileen.undonet.com/Main/PBAinfo/cv80000x.htm (thank you, Eileen)

[snippy]

18. Some medical information here. Congress should not practice medicine.

Statement on So-Called "Partial Birth Abortion" Law
The American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists


Washington, DC -- The American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists (ACOG) continues to oppose so-called "partial birth abortion" laws, including the conference committee bill approved by the US House of Representatives yesterday and sent to the US Senate. "Partial birth abortion" is a non-medical term apparently referring to a particular abortion procedure known as intact dilatation and extraction (intact D&X, or D&X), a rare variant of a more common midterm abortion procedure known as dilatation and evacuation (D&E).

In 2000, the US Supreme Court struck down a Nebraska "partial birth abortion" law in the case of Stenberg v. Carhart, ruling that the law violated the US Constitution by (1) failing to provide any exception "for the preservation of the health of the mother," and (2) being so broadly written that it could prohibit other types of abortion procedures such as D&E, thereby "unduly burdening a women's ability to choose abortion itself." The bill now before the Senate, which its supporters claim can meet any constitutional test, blatantly disregards the two-pronged test the Supreme Court carefully established in Stenberg.

As noted in a 1997 ACOG Statement of Policy, reaffirmed in 2000, and in ACOG's amicus curiae brief filed in the Stenberg case, ACOG continues to object to legislators taking any action that would supersede the medical judgment of a trained physician, in consultation with a patient, as to what is the safest and most appropriate medical procedure for that particular patient.

ACOG's Statement of Policy explains why ACOG believes such legislation to be "inappropriate, ill advised, and dangerous." The policy statement notes that although a select panel convened by ACOG could identify no circumstances under which intact D&X would be the only option to protect the life or health of a woman, intact D&X "may be the best or most appropriate procedure in a particular circumstance to save the life or preserve the health of a woman, and only the doctor, in consultation with the patient, based upon the woman's particular circumstances, can make this decision (emphasis added)."

The Statement of Policy further reads that such legislation has the potential to outlaw other abortion techniques that are critical to the lives and health of American women. This was the second basis upon which the Supreme Court struck down the Nebraska law in the Stenberg case. The Court will invariably strike down laws that are overly broad or imprecisely drawn. Bills that frequently use terms -- such as "partial birth abortion" -- that are not recognized by the very constituency (physicians) whose conduct the law would criminalize, and that purport to address a single procedure yet describe elements of other procedures used in obstetrics and gynecology would not meet the Court's test.

In this case, the bill before the Senate fails to respect the Stenberg test because bill supporters flagrantly refuse to include an exception for the health of a woman. Instead, legislators try to circumvent the Court's requirements by issuing their own opinion to the nation's physicians and patients that such a procedure is never needed to protect a woman's health -- notwithstanding opposing opinions from the medical community.

The medical misinformation currently circulating in political discussions of abortion procedures only reinforces ACOG's position: in the individual circumstances of each particular medical case, the patient and physician -- not legislators -- are the appropriate parties to determine the best method of treatment.

http://www.acog.org/from_home/publications/press_releases/nr10-03-03.cfm

[question everything]

28. Thank you! I hope that every candidate running against any of

these men, who would never know what it means to be pregnant, will use this exact photo.

[porphyrian]

20. Late-term abortion is extremely rare.

How is it they are more concerned about a few innocent lives than the thousands lost by starting an unnecessary war? What about the thousands of innocent lives lost by underfunding FEMA and appointing incompetent cronies to its highest positions? There's a major difference in scale here, and their priorities are seriously fucked up.

[gollygee]

26. Or

How many lives are lost due to not having health insurance and access to prescriptions?

[Eileen]

29. The Phantom Procedurw - called PBA by the AAPI - does not exist.

Reviving some earlier responses to a similar post on this subject:

______________________________________________________________________
Please Please Please
Do Not accept the propaganda of the Anti Abortion Propaganda Industry (AAPI) as if it were fact.

My apologies to all who have already seen this posted by me in the past.

The Phantom Procedure which has been called a 'PBA' by the AAPI IS NOT a D&X Abortion (or ID&X).

The Phantom Procedure which has been called a 'PBA' by the AAPI IS NOT a Late Term Abortion (LTA).

The Phantom Procedure (PBA) is an undefined procedure and can be used to refer to almost any abortion performed after the embryonic stage of gestation.


Please read my - previous DU post - which contains a number of other links.

As a further reference to the truth of these statements you could read - an excellent article - in Women's eNews.

You might also find - This Page - from my site useful since it references the Phantom Procedure specifically.

Please do not permit this propaganda term to deceive you.

Note: Medically speaking the term "elective" does not mean optional as in elective courses for a degree. When a physician or surgeon speaks of an elective procedure s/he is referring to a procedure that can be scheduled. ALL medical procedures except those performed in an emergency without scheduling are "elective" in nature - even "heart bypass surgery" for example.

- Eileen`s always in process page -


Eileen

Link Repaired