I told my RW mother I don't believe in her god

[cynatnite]

She finally got the full truth of it today. When I was in Jr. High school she told me one time that if someone held a gun to my head and said they would kill me if she did not renounce god, she wouldn't do it.

That had a profound impact on me as a kid. For one, it told me she loved god more than me. And another thing is, I honestly didn't believe god would be so cruel and unloving.

To me, god is a passive spiritual being who loves us. That's about as far as I believe. I believe very little of the bible and have even less use for it except when it comes to Jesus. I don't know if his miracles are fact and they may be. But to me, he was about peace, love and forgiveness. To me, that's the word he wanted spread to everyone.

My mother's a RW fundie. I love her, but that's what she is. If we don't believe as she and others do, we'll go to hell. She now knows how much I loathe organized religion. She knows I take little stock in most of the bible.

I couldn't hold back anymore and let her know exactly how I view the bible and christianity today. Oh, and she blames liberal democrats for the 'decline' in christianity. :eyes:

[kiki]

1. On the last point, she's right.

Sorry, but if you're going to arrest a group of people for killing God (or at least trying), it ain't gonna be conservatives. Like it or not, liberalism usually goes hand-in-hand with atheism - or at least secularism (you know fundies hate it when those "other" religions get to have a say).

But so it goes. She can blame us for lots of other stuff too. For example, seeing as she's a woman, she can blame us for the fact that she's allowed to vote, or work, or indeed for the fact that anyone gives a flying fuck what she or anyone else of her cursed gender has to say.

[Extend a Hand]

13. Liberal dems can't be blamed for a 'decline in Christianity'

but we be blamed for the absence of religion in government. If there is a decline in Christianity, it's more likely due to the hypocrisy of the fundamentalists.

[blondeatlast]

26. Your second sentence is profound indeed. Well said. nt

[kiki]

29. I liked it too.

But I don't think any liberal should be upset with the idea that we might have had something to do with a general decline in religiosity across the world... it's a good thing! I'd say it's linked to all the other things liberals caused a decline in - like child labour, torture, totalitarianism, racism... stuff like that...

[kiki]

33. Although we liked your second sentence...

...your first is more important. I've got very, very close friends who are Christians, and I tell them I'm happy for them and maybe a little jealous - but if I'm honest, I'm glad the world isn't full of them. It can be funny trying to reconcile your atheism if you have Christians who you love dearly, but you just think they're wrong about the entire nature of life and the universe.

But one thing NONE of us has a problem with is that that shit has no place in government. Which is the real point.

[Extend a Hand]

37. as a liberal christian

child of fundamentalists and wife of an atheist, I'd rather have a world full of rational atheists. ;)

[A HERETIC I AM]

24. "Like it or not, liberalism usually goes hand-in-hand with atheism"

Wrong. Liberalism goes hand in hand with progressiveness and reason and it's natural cohorts, intellect and rationalism. THESE are the things which lead to a more logical view of reality and the world.

The simple fact is, the more educated a populace is, the less it tends to believe in the supernatural.

And like it or not, god belief is belief in the supernatural.

This is why the church has fought against good, effective, secular public education since it's inception.

Intelligence = rationalism = less god belief = less tithing = a bad thing for religious leaders.

[kiki]

27. Erm... you seem to be agreeing with me...

Me: Liberalism = atheism.

You: Liberalism = progressivism = better education = less belief in the supernatural = atheism.

Sorry if I jumped a couple of stages there, but I think the message is the same... :)

[A HERETIC I AM]

31. Statements like "Liberalism leads to Atheism" give the RW EXACTLY

the fodder they seek.

My point is that liberalism is progressive.

And there are PLENTY of progressives that have god beliefs, they just dont tend to take them as literally as the opposition.

But alas, that hair is split fine enough.

[kiki]

34. If you're going

to suggest that someone is spouting Coulter-fodder, it'll be more credible if you actually quote them correctly. "Statements like" indeed. I didn't say liberalism "leads to atheism", which makes it sound like some kind of gateway drug, I suggested that the two might be somewhat connected (and even with the qualifier "usually" - I'm perfectly aware that many liberals are believers). WHICH THEY ARE. If that gives "ammunition" for some renowned pathological liar to say more lies to a bunch of famously gullible imbeciles, then boo frickin' hoo.

Not to take the thread off course, but are we so scared of what these pathetic bullshitters have to say that we can't even say basic, obvious shit like "liberals tend to be atheists" without being scared that they'll get their panties in a bunch - like they do over every damn word we say?

[GreenPartyVoter]

2. Glad you told her how you feel *hugs*

[boston bean]

3. I am so sorry she said that to you. I can't imagine my mother

saying something like that to me.

That is so hurtful.

Sometimes people don't know what they don't know until they know.

Hopefully someday she will know.

[knowbody0]

4. at eleven i lost it

when i understood the story of Abraham willing to sacrifice his son to save his own sorry soul.
that's when i realized that man's interpretation of "the word" had to be way wrong. i voiced these opinions and was punished severely-my waist length hair was cut to 1" and i was slaved out to the convent all summer.
my mum cried every time she looked at me.
my God has been Truth since then.

[Rainscents]

10. That happen to me in orphanage.

[rniel]

30. good example of selfishness

Which is bad. According to christianity. The shit just don't add up. It's a lot of "Fuzzy Math" to quote George Bush.

[spuddonna]

32. I'm so sorry...

That's so awful... I can't even fathom how people can do these things... :(

[Rainscents]

5. Good for you!

:hug:

[NNN0LHI]

6. Holy shit

...if someone held a gun to my head and said they would kill me if she did not renounce god, she wouldn't do it...

Sounds like something Osama bin Laden would say.

Don

[stepnw1f]

12. Be Nice (nt)

[Kazak]

7. Kurt Vonnegut

Do you know what a humanist is?

My parents and grandparents were humanists, what used to be called Free Thinkers. So as a humanist I am honoring my ancestors, which the Bible says is a good thing to do. We humanists try to behave as decently, as fairly, and as honorably as we can without any expectation of rewards or punishments in an afterlife. My brother and sister didn't think there was one, my parents and grandparents didn't think there was one. It was enough that they were alive. We humanists serve as best we can the only abstraction with which we have any real familiarity, which is our community.

I am, incidentally, Honorary President of the American Humanist Association, having suceeded the late, great science fiction writer Isaac Asimov in that totally functionless capacity. We had a memorial service for Isaac a few years back, and I spoke and said at one point, "Isaac is up in heaven now." It was the funniest thing I could have said to an audience of humanists. I rolled them in the aisles. It was several minutes before order could be restored. And if I should ever die, God forbid, I hope you will say, "Kurt is up in heaven now." That's my favorite joke.

How do humanists feel about Jesus? I say of Jesus, as all humanists do, "If what he said is good, and so much of it is absolutely beautiful, what does it matter if he was God or not?"

But, if Christ hadn't delivered the Sermon on the Mount, with its message of mercy and pity, I wouldn't want to be a human being.

I'd just as soon be a rattlesnake.

Edit: oops, somehow I didn't quite manage to do a quote right, but the above passage is quoted from KV's new book, A Man Without A Country, and seemed appropriate to me here.

Second edit: There, that's a little better.

[Zenlitened]

16. Vonnegut has a new book out?

*runs out the door, jumps in car, drives to book store*

Thanks for the heads-up! :hi:

[Kazak]

20. Yep!

:D

[cynatnite]

18. I am going to buy a couple of his books

I never read him, but after seeing him on Jon Stewart and reading how well he's regarded here at DU, I decided to pick up a couple. 'A Man Without A Country' is a definite.

[Kazak]

21. You won't be sorry!

And, if you're like me...you'll have to read them all before it's all over.

Try maybe Slaugterhouse-5 or Breakfast Of Champions.

[cynatnite]

23. I'm already surfing amazon

:)

[mark11727]

38. My 14-yo son read Slaughterhouse-5 for a summer reading assignment...

...I kept remembering parts from 30-odd years ago when I'd first read it, and he told me to shut up with all the spoilers...

Kids.

[Kazak]

39. My, how times have changed...

And to think it used to be a banned book. :crazy:

[MountainLaurel]

40. Don't kid yourself

In many areas it still is, as is "I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings," "To Kill a Mockingbird," and a wide variety of other classics. The ALA keeps statistics for the most frequently challenged (a.k.a., banned) books for each year.

[Kazak]

41. Sad...

:(

[SomewhereOutThere424]

8. Good for you

Like most christians, I at one time upheld the 'name of the lord' for the respect of my parents and immediate family. In truth, I agree with you, it was the harsh realization that they loved a name in a textbook more than me, a name that simply promised them wealth, and a name that allowed evil to go on. Even within the bible praising wrongdoing because it was in the name of this god person.

It's hard to stand up entirely about it and show your freedom of choice, but it's good to hear testimony that you did. If someone is going to be a christian, it needs to be with a true love of the god worshipped, not out of fear of hell or condemnation of family for not obeying 'their god'. I wish more christians, left wing or right wing, knew that. I can never look at the christian god the same way again, or most christians, after some of what I'd seen. But those few christians who are of good heart and not following some invisible name for a promise of heaven and power over 'their enemies', but really have a true conviction of their own choice, I respect. I respect it because we need good people in this world, and I respect it because it's one of the only things I know I can never do.

[sui generis]

9. christianity and real christian charity are two different things

on most days in America these days. Maybe she should have pondered, if someone had held a gun to her head that she had FAILED the test of faith by not uttering a few words to save your life and would have gone to hell. She would surely have been in hell long before she died if that had happened. It's sad that your mother thinks that a few meaningless words to save your life and her "real" faith are inextricably bound together. Criminals are not a test of faith to the faithful.

I'm an atheist but I also think that we have a duty to have an opinion about whatever "code" someone lives by if it intersects our lives. If it's not full of humanity and goodness and human decency, then feel free to judge it harshly, and that includes atheism too BTW.

I personally can't stand the bible. The all powerful "god" of the bible is too petulant, petty, and too much of a passive aggressive tyrant for me to ever take anything that comes out of it in part. If you can't guess what I'm thinking . . . I'll kill your wife and children. Nice. Here's the promised land. All you have to do is kill every man woman and child living there and it's yours for the taking and if anyone asks, tell them I SAID SO. Nice.

The lessons of the bible are not unique to the bible, so I don't have to go to "the lord" to lead me no matter what kind of a swell guy he was, when I'm perfectly capable of doing that for myself by practicing the golden rule. I know right from wrong and human decency and fairness and generosity and those are values I can pass on to my kids without ever referring to god or jesus or allah or the FSM.

[AirmensMom]

11. It's her kind that are responsible for the "decline in Christianity."

The "Christians" in this country have distorted the message of Jesus. No one wants to believe in a deity that would condone the things they've done in the name of Christ.

[Iris]

14. I feel certain God never intended for parents to use his name

to emotionally abuse their children.

[mestup]

15. She's maybe defending a parent/fam member more than her God?

So many fundamentalists "inherited" their beliefs from a parent. Scratch the surface and you'll find they're reacting as if you're attacking a belief system held by someone else. Admitting what they were taught was wrong is like picking at the tiny thread that could unravel their whole denial system. (past abuse, neglect, poor parenting, etc)

[zanne]

17. I heard the "gun to the head" story...

In grade school. From a nun, of course, but here's a bonus: the nun said that if they threatened to shoot your parents in the head unless you renounce your religion, you still shouldn't do it, because you'd go straight to hell. The God of gloom and doom and impossible choices strikes again.

[rniel]

19. Those are great family values

I would not put anyone above my child. Nothing in the world is more important to me.

That's coming from me an Atheist.

It sickens me when some christians think they have the monopoly on morals and humanity. They say if we didn't have religion then people would be murdering raving lunatics. Seems to me todays religion is used to as a free pass for bad behavior rather than curtailing it.

If I murder 10 million people personally. Then right before I die I ask for forgiveness and say I'm christian then bingo. I'm in. That's a bunch of bullshit. That's not justice, that's not divine.

Ye shall be known by your actions.

[cynatnite]

22. When I hear the story about Judas, I think the same thing

I watched a movie on TV some time ago about Judas and it had the most incredible ending that blew me away.

It's always accepted that Judas was condemned and sent to hell. No one can know that. Not really.

Anyway, in the movie, a couple of the disciples got his body down from the tree. One didn't want to and was angry at Judas. The other said they should take care of Judas because it's what Jesus would want. I thought that was fabulous because it speaks to how I view Jesus.

I really don't know if Jesus was the son of god or not, to be honest. He could have been an incredible human being who saw the potential of humanity with peace, love and forgiveness. That's always been very profound more so than the 'miracles' and him dying.

[rniel]

28. Never got that one either

If it was prophecied that this is exactly how it was supposed to go down so that god could forgive man for sins. Jesus was supposed to die for our sins. Then guys like Judas and all the Romans etc. were simply doing exactly what they were supposed to.

[Fescue4u]

25. Good, that'll teach her a lesson

While its wrong to mix government and religion, anytime we can use religion as a political tool, especially against family, we should do it.

[Book Lover]

35. What she did is the reducto ad absurdum of Jesus' saying

Luke 18:29 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or parents, or brethren, or wife, or children, for the kingdom of God's sake,

30 Who shall not receive manifold more in this present time, and in the world to come life everlasting.

So to her, it comes straight from the horse's mouth.

[SmokingJacket]

36. Thank God I was raised in an atheist household. nt