I don't want to sound like an alarmist,

[SammyBlue]

But are we witnessing the beginning of the end? People beating each other up for gas, the abandonment of the poor, the gutting of social programs, more countries hate us than tolerate us, COL going through the roof, unrest, protests, anger, resentment, a divided country socially, economically, politically.

All the while China and the EU are getting stronger in all aspects?

Are we watching the beginning of the end of American dominance and the fall of a superpower, a la Rome, Athens, Sparta, Macedonian, the Catholic Church, etc?

[MadisonProgressive]

1. Yes

[Tace]

2. I Don't Want To Be An Alarmist Either, But, I Think, Yes, We Are

Not only are we witnessing the fall of the American empire... but we are witnessing the fall of human civilization. I'm becoming convinced that we are entering a dark age that will last 1,000 years, with a few million people alive on the other side.

[Jackpine Radical]

19. American civilization? Wonderful idea.

We ought to try it sometime.

[Ron Green]

3. The Twentieth Century was the American Century,

and now it's over. It's time for a different sort of life on this planet.

[nadinbrzezinski]

4. Yes

hmm maybe taht is what the rapture fanatics think rapture is... The rapture is here... the rapture is here

[YOY]

5. Yes...blame the fundies

The only upside of the fall will be their lynching.

[devilgrrl]

6. Yes, it is the beginning of the end and the start of 'Soylent Green'

'Omega Man' the release of the "Rage Virus" from the movie '28 Days Later'and who knows what other BAD movie is in store for our future.

[SomewhereOutThere424]

7. Sometimes it pays to be an alarmist, when you speak the truth

The richest, greediest people in our country, the GOP, are right now ignoring complete environmental, economical and global disaster. Why would they be trying to line their pockets instead of in some small way protect themselves? Even the greedy will try to save the world, or part of it, if they happen to live in that part of the world. I think they realize things are going to collapse and are trying to get a 'head start' by gutting all of the poor and taking the money and running.

As one DUer put it, nero fiddled as rome burned, and bush strummed as NO flooded. I think both signify the fall of an empire.

[anitar1]

29. But, but ,but, where will they run to?

Given the fact that the world economy is entertwined. One big line of dominoes.

[SomewhereOutThere424]

30. Exactly

Either they're so brainless they're seriously considering making the moon terraformed and are going to try to move there before the fall (sarcasm) or they're just trying to accumulate wealth to be players in whatever function the world takes when the united states is bled dry.

I'm not personally saying they have enough brains to run anywhere ;) just that it seems to be their mentality.

[ktowntennesseedem]

8. You're a prophet, SammyBlue!

The handwriting is on the wall.

[Roxy66]

9. I knew it would come as soon they gave Bush the Presidency

I remember saying to my Dad..."This is bad Dad, something horrible is going to happen with our country"...and he said "I know...it's really bad, hun"

[one_true_leroy]

10. "not with a bang, but with a whimper"

[daninthemoon]

11. Feels like it. Even my folks feel like it ,and they survived everything

from the Great Depression on up. I hope we can still survive, but I don't know if we are still the "superpower". Bush killed us, and mother nature is burying whats left.

[Amonester]

12. As long (or as short...) as this "bad joke" of a Disaster pResident

will continue to catapult the propaganda for Big Oil and MIC CEO's 200%+ wealth increase, I am afraid that's exactly what we're witnessing.

Now, put honesty, bright intelligence (to fight global warming, for instance), and wealth sharing where they belong, and the tide will be turning for good, IMHO.

[Pathwalker]

13. Yes. Welcome to the end of American supremacy.

It's all downhill, now.

[Gildor Inglorion]

14. Let's hope it's more like the fall of 20th century powers...

like the British Empire and the French Empire. With the diminution of arrogant power may come more cooperation with allies and (at last!) a kinder, gentler USA. The other possibility is Richard Nixon's nightmare of a "pitiful, helpless giant," threshing about in its death agony and causing much misery and suffering.

[Zynx]

15. The American Empire is already at an end.

It is just a matter of realizing that we are no longer strong enough to boss the world around.

[Junkdrawer]

16. ..but we got hummers out of the Oval Office...

look at the bright side...

[MadisonProgressive]

41. That was precious!

[mwb970]

17. If we could get rid of the Bush regime...

We might be able to make a dramatic turnaround. The American people are so much better than this vile administration. We are approaching a tipping point where so many people oppose the Chimp that he simply cannot continue. But we need them all to be gone, not just him.

[moobu2]

18. Welcome to Bush’s America n/t

[stepnw1f]

20. America is No Longer 'THE' Super Power (nt)

[Dark]

21. No.

Yes, there are bad things happening. But America is by no means falling or near an end.

You're forgetting the good things:

-Gay marriage has taken Mass. and will soon (hopefully) take California.

-America controls over half the world's wealth.

-Despite controlling all three branches, conservatives have yet to outlaw abortion, freedom of religion, speech, and the (lazy) media, alcohol, and gay marriage (still can't pass that amendment).

-Half of America voted for the "most liberal sentator".

-China is a long way from being strong as a country. Their economy is based entirely on foreign manufacturing. If we embargoed them. . .

-The EU is still a very weak alliance at best.

The U.S. has its bad points, but it has good ones too.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

25. Thank You...

I'm not willing to give up on this grand experiment because the current occupant of the White House is a miscreant....

[rockymountaindem]

31. Yes.

What you said.

Seriously, this whole "it's already over" attitude is just what the Repubs. et al want us to believe. It's not over 'till we say it's over.

[Gidney N Cloyd]

22. No. It's a major sea change but it's not the end.

Keep your chin up. This ultimately could be an opportunity for humanity to jump ahead.

[ClusterFreak]

23. I can't subscribe to this.

I'm sorry, but if you subscribe to this kind of thinking...how do you get up in the morning? I know how people can feel disconsolate, gosh, about sooooo many things.....but imagine how people felt during World War Two for instance. No one knew if Hitler would prevail, certainly in the early years of the war. Terrible, terrible things were happening in Europe, and in S.E. Asia. They're all well-documented. Yet people soldiered on, in America, in Canada, in Europe and elsewhere around the globe.

This 'end of days' stuff is just too much. While it's perfectly understandable to be angry, to feel powerless, to feel soooo many negative thoughts....you can't subscribe to a 'well that's it, it's over, we're fucked' way of thinking.

[shadowknows69]

24. Hopefully the fall of our empire

will be a wake up call to the others and we will all finally learn to live as a global community.

[Gidney N Cloyd]

27. And work along with nature, not against it.

[shadowknows69]

28. Amen to that Gidney

I don't usually buy the theory of divine signs on a grand scale but in light of recent and current events I think you'd have to be blind not to see that the natural order is clearly out of balance.

[Mistwell]

26. EU not getting stronger

China is getting stronger, that is a fact.

However, the EU is not. In fact, current trends show it getting weaker, not stronger. The movement for a unified Constution has not gone well. Pro-EU candidates are not doing nearly as well as they used to. The movement for a unified coin is also facing stronger than expected oposition. The movement for a unified military is getting almost no traction. The entry of new members (like Turkey) is causing havoc as the new members have a different view about so many things than the older members. Meanwhile many economies in the EU continue to get worse and worse.

In other words, EU isn't getting stronger. If anything, they are growing weaker faster than the US.

[tocqueville]

37. let me modify this a tad

1) the rejection of the constitution is a sad episode, but just an episode. It was caused mostly by internal grievances with the local governments. A new draft is likely to be accepted in a couple of years.

2) the Euro is doing well and the opposition ridiculously little, mostly coming from politicians wanting to create an image. In 5 years from now, the majority of the Eastern members will have joined the zone.

3) Nato/Eurocorps lacks some projection capability. It's still the biggest military after the US and technologically comparable, with OWN technologies which sometimes are superior to the US. The AMOUNT is of course smaller but the quality is there.

4) Turkey is probably never to be a member. Anyway the problem is 15 years ahead.

5) Economy ? come on !!!! what Europe "lacks" is the horrendous US deficit and loans abroad to China. Thanks God. Oil dependency is mostly relying on NON-ARAB countries and transfer to new technologies and resources in full bloom. The total GDP of Europe is bigger than the US and the trade balance POSITIVE. Besides the EU is the biggest food exporter today, while the US is a netto importer.

This doesn't mean that there aren't problems. But the trend is today towards solving them as the debate shows in France and Germany...

and remember if there is a power vaccuum created by a recession in the US, this vaccuum has to be filled. The US is not a MAJOR manufacturer anymore, Europe, China and Japan are, thus on different areas. Europe's strength is on the high tech.

Today the gasoline prices are not skyrocketing in the US (even if it looks like it according to US standards) because Europe is sustaining the US with it's strategic reserve, not the contrary.

said without jingoism. Nobody wants the US here to "go down". Europe is more interested in a fair trade partner and and a fair ally with common values than anything else.

[mandyky]

32. We are closer to the fall of the USSR

We are spending so much on wars and military and cutting social programs and other "discretionary" spending. GWB said it himself - he hit the trifecta - he has the excuses he needs I guess.

[ducque]

33. It's not "going to happen". It has "already happened"

In most any measure you can think of.

-- US has by far the highest healthcare costs (triple the nearest "competitor"), but is about 20th in the world in quality of service for the average American.

-- US student's ability in mathematics is about 24th in the world. Right up there with Bosnia.

-- Availability of internet bandwidth to the average American: 12th in the world.

-- Production of science/engineering graduates: about 5th in the world, and dropping fast (yes, corrected for populations)

-- Average wages in US have dropped for the last three years running. First time there has been a drop since the 70's -- and then it was for one year. Before that, it was the 1930s Depression.

-- There is new job creation in the US (which Bush likes to point out), but virtually all of the new job creation is for low-wage (e.g., $8/hour) jobs (which Bush does not like to point out).

-- literacy rates in the US are actually *dropping*.

I read a wonderful news story a couple of weeks ago. Toyota is opening a new plant in North America for RAV4 vehicles. Their first choice was to co-locate it with their existing plant in Alabama. They tried working with the Governor of Alabama on getting some serious local problems "fixed" before they could commit to locating there.

Result? They are locating in Canada. Why -- and this is according to the Toyota press release:

1) Too many illiterates in Alabama. Toyota currently has to provide special "pictures only" documentation of work tasks for the illiterates. The Governor of AL was unwilling to reduce state income tax cuts for the rich to help fund an employee education program at Toyota's request.

2) The AL workers are less happy, more worried, and less productive than Canadian workers. They are much more willing to stop work for nonsense reasons.

3) No US national health insurance makes the effective labor rates in Alabama much higher than in Canada.

Must I continue?

Keep on shopping, America. Keep on watching TV. Tomorrow will never come.

[ducque]

34. And I should have added ...

But our defense budget is greater than the defense budget of the whole rest of the world combined!

[donheld]

35. You are not an alarmist

Well you are but with very good reason. It's time people wake the hell up. Yes it's the beginning of the end.

[Lexingtonian]

36. No.

But this is what it's like when most of the electorate decides it wants to live in the past and gets its way. Reality takes a baseball bat to their idiocy after a while. Enough idiocy was beaten out of 48.5% by last November.

We're getting to seriously stupid people getting the idiocy beaten out of them. On our side it took relatively little to so, most of it mental pain. On their side the amount of stupidity is simply so much greater and, hardened as they are against mental pain, serious material and physical pain is what gets through their dulled minds and sense. They voted for stupidity, stupidity is what they've gotten and continue to get- good and hard and relentlessly.

The good news is, this process is one way as concerns political power of 'conservatives'.

As for the Fall Of Rome and other foolish apocalypticism, that's a way of thinking about it all that is remarkably confined to middle and higher class WASP-Americans. They're really just talking about the caste system that so privileged them failing them. For some reason, absent superior caste standing they just can't seem to like America very much, these model patriots.

The Modern Age has a levelling effect. China and Europe were going to 'catch up' in the middle future, the national and continental disparities of education/information and differential agrarianist obstacles to progress can simply not be maintained at the 19th Century extremes.

The U.S. is ahead of many other countries in social development, that is the paradox of the present situation. This is the first polycultural and polyracial society that is, painful and messily and with great waste of treasure and incredible vitriol, destroying its colonial era caste system comprehensively. It remains the greatest engine of creativity and economic power the world has known, that simply has not changed in this present rebuild.

All other societies that appear to be in ascent, that aspire to overtake the U.S., have not hit the social order transformation the Modern Age demands as squarely if at all. China is social developmentally up to about where the U.S. was in the 1920s...in 10-15 years there will be a horrible Culture War there between traditionalists and Modernists with democracy the likely nominal object of dispute. India is also about the same amount of time away from internal combustion about Modernity; I'll guess the fight will focus on status of its Muslim minority.

Europe is a bit different. The tensions there are largely driven by excessive populations and how to downsize them without succumbing to temptations of cultural defeatism and cultural suicide.

[applegrove]

38. Hard not to alarm when it is scary. But the rest of the world has done

okay or even fine (the West I mean) without being top dog. It isn't the end of the world. It is just the end of some myths. I don't think you see Europeans rushing in to become Americans anymore. They are quite happy living as adults in Europe and all.

[Dave Reynolds]

39. Yep, welcome to our new place in the world,

third-world nation.

[Bucky]

42. You are being sarcastic, of course.

America won't become a Third World country any time soon. Rather, we're going to get rid of these Republican dingbats and put in better managers, just as we've always done. I think 50 years from now, we'll be riding in green energy cars--hydrogen, solar, something renewable--and we'll be thanking a Democratic leader for forcing us to develop them.

[Dave Reynolds]

45. Kind of sarcastic,

but if we are to develop anything, we best be doing it quickly.

I'm sure you know that oil is necessary to bring about the new technology. If we do not hurry, it will be too expensive to bring about any meaningful technological advances.

I envy you your optimism, I just have a hard time matching it.

:toast:

[Biased Liberal Media]

40. Civil war is already here...with the likes of the Minutemen

"patrolling the borders" (and apparently even the CANADIAN borders. What Canadian in their right mind would want to immigrate HERE?? The government doesn't give a shit about the people. People are buying guns and hogging gas reserves. It's every man for his own self- the true face of America.

Sickening, isn't it??

[0007]

43. America is in for some big changes and the wake up call

is here....

[Tower]

44. Oddly enough, I think PNAC was a *response* to this impending decline.

The neocons involved saw a more organized East and EU emerging, and sought to quickly seize resources before the others could. We've been conducting business this way for decades, of course- but they were the first to come right out and say it. And they took it to new extremes.

But you know what? I think we'll all be alot better off as our ghost empire declines. What does empire do for the average person, save undermine their wages and demand their children fight foreign wars? I think we'll all benefit greatly as the Cheneys of this country lose their international influence.