Are America's wealthy that greedy?

[mediaman007]

America's war costs are out of control, we are about to have a second major hurricane within a month and Bush* wants the tax cuts made permanent?

Do the wealth of America agree with this? At some point don't they realize how fortunate they are? Won't any of them (besides Bill Clinton) stand up and tell this president that the country's needs come first?

To hell with them if they need the money that badly!

[skooooo]

1. Greed is good.

That's a saying that came into vogue in the 1980s. Since then, they've pumped up that sentiment with steriods, it would seem.

[fleabert]

2. yes. my uncle is wealthy, and is a staunch republican.

he is very much a 'let everyone take care of themselves' type. it's disgusting. I can barely be in the same room with him.

[opihimoimoi]

5. Selfishness Gone Wild, started with Ronnie the Dummy

[CascadeTide]

24. like any of those people did it all themselves -nt

[SammyWinstonJack]

38. They like to convince themselves they did. Delusional much? nt

[AirAmFan]

55. "Born on third base... thought they HIT TRIPLES!"

[Geoff R. Casavant]

34. He doesn't realize

how much his continued wealth depends on the lower rungs continuing to spend their money, and continuin to have money to spend in the first place.

They stop spending, corporate profits go down, stock values go down, and he's on the bread line like the rest.

[susanna]

69. Thanks, Geoff.

That is the MAIN point I make to ersatz GOPers (I vote for 'em 'cuz I got a tax cut! Yee hah!)

If ordinary people do not have money, corporate products do not get sold. People hunker down and go for the essentials, and they stop CONSUMING blindly. Get it?

Sadly, most do not.

[applegrove]

3. They are afraid of loosing American dominance. So they follow

the Saudi model of wealth - and hope to dominate the world that way. Cause to not be the biggest & wealthiest country in the world is a crime. And since Am only has 5% of the world's population - the chances are... at some point in the future America will loose its dominance.

They have a right to security don't they? :sarcasm:

[catzies]

40. Interesting you bring up the Saudi model

What with its close ties to our regime and all. :think:

[The Traveler]

4. To be brief, yes

"Greed is good". Yeah, right. The Bible advises that greed is one of the Seven Deadly Sins ... there would seem to be an ideological contradiction here ...

[I_Make_Mistakes]

9. They are so insecure that they feel the need to accumulate more

and more. My dad actually told my aunt that his charity was to his employees (he does provide very good benefits, medical, dental, 401K, etc.), but is that charity?. These people work hard and are not overpaid.

There is no end to his need to acquire. The sad part is, I think he gets people suck up to him for his money, not for who he is. He has a good side to him and if he worked on the insecurity issues, people would like him for who he is. He is a dry drunk and very much like Dubya.

[The Traveler]

13. Love him

That is all you can really do for him. We all have warts. Love him anyway.

The only cure for insecurity is the experience of unconditional love. The love that sez, I disagree, you are wrong, your values are fucked but I know what a great person you are and I love you anyway. The word "love" derives from the old English "liefe" which means "to give permission". To love someone is to give them permission to be the way they are.

Thanks for telling me about this. It reminds me of my relationship with my father.

[I_Make_Mistakes]

16. I love him but I don't like him. He has used money to manipulate

me for a long time. When he brings up my inheritance, I tell him to give it to charity. I really don't want his money, too many lies and strings attached.

I have seen the most loving coming from the poorest of the poor. They have nothing to lose, so they give it all. Money truly corrupts the soul. I want mine in tack on Judgement Day, which is a difficult task indeed.

[The Traveler]

17. You are so close

Refuse the inheritance. Love him anyway. And give him that.

But I know what you mean about loving and not liking.

Money doesn't corrupt the soul, exactly. Our attachment to THINGS does. Attachment to things is bondage ... the very thing Jesus wanted to liberate us from.

[I_Make_Mistakes]

18. Damn TT I love you for getting it. People think I am nuts for not

wanting to take the money and run. My dad is first on the list!

[Bernardo de La Paz]

50. Take the money and give it to your charity rather than ...

Take the money and give it to your charity rather than him giving it to his "charity" or worse.

[undergroundpanther]

22. Fuck the new age cheese

This man is a danger to humanity. Love does NOT cure all ills..Some people are incapable of love or empathy or character.All con men use your"love" to con you more,Sociopaths take your pity and abuse you.

Some people are morally inferior to people who care and deserve to be treated as the hateful scheming pigs they are.

I spend my love on people who can feel it..

not on people who will TAKE ADVANTAGE of it and hurt people with my kindness.

I desire not to hang on a cross for some sadistic greedy asshole's good pleasure.

[The Traveler]

27. Like the pentagram panther

thing. Obviously, we differ as to how to deal with family issues.

[undergroundpanther]

37. Thanks Traveler

It's kinda my logo.

Anyways I think family is not a subsitute for a good community of people that know and respect each other in solidarity.
Some families are more dangerous to belong to than being out in the street. Family is not always a good thing to prop up.And when family is propped up over the need for a safe haven AWAY from family,it becomes a bad thing.Not all families are good. Some people should not be trusted with that kind of power over children and the kind of privacy a home offers perpretrators.Did you know most child abuse happens in the home by FAMILY? Did you know most murders committed are by family members to family? I reject family'values' in favor of the notion of HAVENS from abusive bullying crazymaking people,be they related to the victim or not. NO one should be forced to live with a sadistic bullying asshole tyrant simply because they are related to them and the sick family dynamics ensure denial covers the bullies ass..

[The Traveler]

44. I hear ya

But I also know the gnawing pain that comes when a parent dies and there are conflicts left unresolved. Your presumption is that man is evil. That is not the sense I got from her post. Rather, she rejects his value system, and of course he does not like that.

Hers is a highly principled position, a life gesture. She would retain her integrity and find her own way in the world. A hero's choice. It is possible that example may open his eyes.

Not likely, but possible.

My story, in a nutshell. my father worked for DoD and in a remarkably subtle fashion manipulated me into doing the same. By the time I found out, I was in deep. Dad had died by that point in time, and there were still tensions between us when he passed. Later, there came a time when I had to make a choice, and I chose to leave that work. The alternative was to cross a line I was not willing to cross.

Afterward, the troubles came. Adapting to the world of normal people came hard. I was diagnosed and treated for PTSD. Without the help of friends who became a "family of choice", I probably wouldn't have been very successful or happy.

You have a lot of anger ... and you direct it well, tempered with a measure of wisdom. I read your words and I say, "Yes, but this does not necessarily fit well with the situation that has been described."

I_Make_Mistakes perceives much of her father's issues to be related to compensation for various insecurities. He is clearly overbearing, possibly something of a minor bully ... but my sense of her posts is that he is not actually abusive. If he is, then I would have to agree that every one of your words applies to this situation.

Trav

[undergroundpanther]

45. Well

But I also know the gnawing pain that comes when a parent dies and there are conflicts left unresolved. Your presumption is that man is evil. That is not the sense I got from her post. Rather, she rejects his value system, and of course he does not like that.
Well why I say he is evil is this..

If you value a belief over your own daughter,that is sick,period.
Let me give you a hypothetical situation that relates..tho not directly.. when a kid grows up in a "value" laden household and when this kid gets older and discovers he is gay ..It is parents who value what they want to believe(religion or conservatism) and will disown their real child who is not their idealized fantasy projection child, who fails to be what they want their kid to be( which always is like the parent in a mini me fashion) over the lives and happiness of their kids as they ARE .. this is an evil insidious form of child abuse,bullying and it is not what people do to loved ones who are different than what they want, when they LOVE one another..

Hers is a highly principled position, a life gesture. She would retain her integrity and find her own way in the world. A hero's choice. It is possible that example may open his eyes.

I don't think it will.She can refuse the money.Or take it.

What I would do is take it and donate it all to liberal causes this asshole would hate.


My story, in a nutshell. my father worked for DoD and in a remarkably subtle fashion manipulated me into doing the same. By the time I found out, I was in deep. Dad had died by that point in time, and there were still tensions between us when he passed. Later, there came a time when I had to make a choice, and I chose to leave that work. The alternative was to cross a line I was not willing to cross.

Glad you left. My dad was military too an abusive son-of-a bitch.I hate the military because it is so damn corrupted and the corruption is from the top down.It is nothing but a glorified bully gang.My father offered me up as a govt.guinea pig.For booze money. So I know full well how greedy self absorbed narcissistic parents can FUCK up your life.

Afterward, the troubles came. Adapting to the world of normal people came hard. I was diagnosed and treated for PTSD. Without the help of friends who became a "family of choice", I probably wouldn't have been very successful or happy.

Same here. A family of choice can really help you heal I got PSTD too..that is the haven I was referring to.

You have a lot of anger ... and you direct it well, tempered with a measure of wisdom. I read your words and I say, "Yes, but this does not necessarily fit well with the situation that has been described."

I dunno about that. Do you value a religion/political or certain"value" over the well being of your own child?
If that child was a sociopath I'd say fuck them,but I make mistakes is not a narcissist/sociopath manipulator....So why is her family rejecting her on the grounds that she is not like them,"values wise"?

I_Make_Mistakes perceives much of her father's issues to be related to compensation for various insecurities.

But when is his projections and insecurities her burden?They are HIS problems.He should be forced to OWN IT. It's not her fault he is an asshole? So why should she suffer because he chooses to hurt HER?

He is clearly overbearing, possibly something of a minor bully ... but my sense of her posts is that he is not actually abusive. If he is, then I would have to agree that every one of your words applies to this situation.

Emotional abuse,verbal abuse hurts as much as a fist can.

A person that terrorizes and intimidates and belittles his own child is a bullying asshole and to play games with her like he is doing with her because he is insecure or controlling or just an asshole is WRONG.and abusive.
She should not suffer more pain because HE has unresolved domination problems and an evil heart.

People make choices... It is always a choice to HURT someone who is not harming you or out to hurt you That is a choice to abuse them.A father being mean to a daughter is a choice to take advantage of a power and trust to control or belittle the daughter..Being different than the father is not abuse being different than a parent wants is not grounds for belittling if the child is not harming others..Belittling controlling and playing hurtful games IS a choice to be abusive.

There are tons of times my insecurities and fears eat mme up,but I watch my choices. I will not use my own pain to excuse abuse..or by stand for abusers and pretend and abusers choice to do something hurtful and wrong is not hurtful and wrong.

To abuse someone less powerful,smaller,dependant,or someone unable to defend themselves is a choice an abuser makes..It's not self defense to wound someone who is not attacking you or belittling you. it IS that simple.

[The Traveler]

46. Gotta catch some rack

And that sucks because I want to craft an intelligent response to this.

We are coming at this from different perspectives, but I like what you have to say. We are circling what I think is a central issue. I will try to summarize quickly.

1) The powerful, in the absence of values which demand otherwise, tend to abuse the weak.

2) That abuse can take many forms. The relationship between the weak and the strong can also take many forms.

3) What are the proper methods of resistance? They must all involve empowerment of the weak, it seems to me ... and much of that is an inner chore. Developing the willingness to resist the bully is part of that. Becoming strong enough to not become a bully oneself is another part of it.

The macrocosm often reflects the microcosm. For example, Bush and the corporatist class can appropriately be viewed in the role of abusive parent or worse.

You wrote:

"There are tons of times my insecurities and fears eat mme up,but I watch my choices. I will not use my own pain to excuse abuse..or by stand for abusers and pretend and abusers choice to do something hurtful and wrong is not hurtful and wrong.

To abuse someone less powerful,smaller,dependant,or someone unable to defend themselves is a choice an abuser makes..It's not self defense to wound someone who is not attacking you or belittling you. it IS that simple."

Now, that is what I call a value system worth owning.

G'nite, Panther. Perhaps we can develop this line of discussion further in the future?

[I_Make_Mistakes]

66. Actually., TT he is a major bully to his family. He actually threw

me into the kitchen door because I put his dishes in the the dishwasher the wrong way (by his definition). He was drinking at the time, so I got out of there as fast as I could (in college at the time). I also, blamed it on his drinking.

However, he stopped drinking, like 15 yrs ago. He pushed me into the wall in a corridor at his house 2 yrs. ago, because he didn't like the truth that I told. It was about how he tried to manipulate everyone around him.

I love him because, he is my father. I know that he definitely has a psychological disorder, but I am not in a position to determine which one. He has a lot of money, so he can surround himself, with supporters, to try to make me the problem, but I know he knows deep down inside, he is the problem. He bites his upper lip before a whopper lie comes out.

The problem with blaming someone with mental problems is, they had nothing to do with the disorder. I know in my heart, he did nothing to bring his disorder upon him, it was nature that brought it upon him.

So, I don't have to put up with his abuse, but I still love him, because he actually really wants to care, and can't do it without the help he needs, but it would cost him (not financially) too much to seek it!

[I_Make_Mistakes]

68. Actually ugp and tt we could really do some good to converse

together. I think you guys (actually freaked me out and started talking about me in the third person, really weird to me) could start a discussion that could help a lot of people.

The only thing that I ask, is when you are talking about me, is to invite me to the table.

God (whatever yours is, or not) bless!

[undergroundpanther]

21. Sociopaths deserve no love or pity

A manipulator con man is an asshole to be shunned.Look if more people shafted by these pukes expressed thier true disgust at these greedy parasitic reptile hearted bubble people they might not so easily buy our government from under us folks.

[Geoff R. Casavant]

35. Reminds me from a lyric

from Prince Of Egypt:

That's why we share all we have with you
When there's little to be found.
When all you've got is nothing
There's a lot to go around.

[hatrack]

36. It's simple - if you have enough money, you will NEVER DIE!!!!!

At least, that's the most sense I can make out of the buttheaded attitude of greedy pimples like those described in this thread. :eyes:

[susanna]

70. I am beyond thinking that what is happening is greed.

It is pure, unadulterated gluttony on a financial scale. Greed seems paltry in comparison.

So says me. :shrug:

[aquart]

6. You left out heartless.

They have serious guilt denial problems. To deny they feel guilty for utterly undeserved riches, the make up huge constructs of worthiness and superiority. And cling to these constructs like Katrina victims clung to telephone poles, and slivers of boats.

[Lindsay]

7. The only rich people I know are.

One couple who are actually friends of my sister's, but I know them casually.

I think the wife, if not married to her asshole husband, would be neither rich nor greedy. Him - greedy rat bastard.

[Carolab]

8. I think so, yes.

My fiance's daughter (a liberal) works for a law firm, the head of which is a wealthy attorney who actually voted for * just because he wanted the tax cut.

[Fescue4u]

60. Thats actually quite reasonable if you consider the contxt

///the head of which is a wealthy attorney who actually voted for * just because he wanted the tax cut.///


The first duty in voting is to look out for your own interests. Assuming that he did get a large tax cut, then the choice was quite logical.

Of course that makes him a rarity.

of coursem most folks are far better off, and will receive far more from government by voting for their interests...and that vote is of course Democrats.

But for the small wealthy %, voting R does give them the most benefit.

[Carolab]

71. He admitted to her that he knew it was "wrong". n/t

[Fescue4u]

73. Thats very encouraging

person by person is what it takes

[melody]

10. The rich people I know are as varied as the poor people

I know a lot of rich people in the entertainment industry and, to a one, they are very giving, unselfish people. A few may have egos the size of Mars, but they remember what it was like to be poor or middle-class. I know a lot of other people in the field of general business - they are as various as the poor and middle class people I know. In the words of George Carlin, a few cool people and a whole lot of losers (actually, I think it's closer to 50/50 myself).

[punpirate]

11. Well, yes, they are...

... in any number of cases. I'm sure there are exceptions. But, the real problem is in Congress--for twenty-five years or more, Congress critters have kow-towed to the wealthy (and to wealthy corporations), offering more and more tax breaks in the hopes that those wealthy people will then continue to contribute to their campaigns (and, historically, the Dems have been just about as bad about this as the `pugs).

To see the extent of the problem, I recommend reading David Cay Johnston's Perfectly Legal. Congress has been the enabler here of a lot of that greed.

Another anecdote, of which some may be aware. The five descendents of Sam Walton collectively own 40% of WalMart stock (and who are collectively worth $100 billion), and have formed their own corporation to protect their interests, partly by using a little of their money to buy their own Washington lobbyist, Patton Bogg, to push their interests in Congress--including for more tax cuts and for making tax cuts permanent.

In effect, their wealth gives them an advantage few of us have--their own lobbyist in Congress, which then increases their advantage. That's a fairly refined form of greed....

[Mairead]

15. Resistance to corruption is why Jefferson supported democracy

and Patrick Henry opposed the Constitution -- having all the power in a tiny number of hands practically guarantees successful corruption.

[Princess Turandot]

12. 80%+ of Manhattan voted for John Kerry...

and I would guess that more than just 20% of the voters here are quite wealthy.

[ladylibertee]

14. True True.Bill Clinton is the only one willing to give up the tax break

[BiggJawn]

29. Is he?

I've heard him say "I really didn't need it..." but I haven't heard him offering to give it up.

[Princess Turandot]

49. He did in an interview on Larry King (CNN) last year..it was almost funny.

if the situation wasn't so pathetic. He was talking abt rolling back the tax reductions on the wealthy.

He said (paraphrasing) to King "Neither of us need to have our taxes decreased. "

To which King looked at him a bit startled and asked "What do you mean???"

Bill looked at him equally perplexed and said "Larry, how much more money do either you or me need?"

[DuckBurp]

19. Some Republican lawmakers want to ...

... put the cost of the deficits on the backs of federal workers and federal retirees by cutting their benefits and changing the formula for computing pensions. I guess they figure that federal employees like me already vote Democrat, so they have nothing to lose politically.

[spuddonna]

20. yes. n/t

[KharmaTrain]

23. How Much Is Wealthy?

Some of those folks could be right here.

[YapiYapo]

25. You bet they do...

30% of american gain more than 100,000$ a year.No other country in the world can match those numbers.

American people are 5% of the world population, yet use 30% of the total ressource.For china to have the same standard of living than america, it will need 6 planets earth to cover the ressource.

[Joebert]

42. As Chris Rock says...

Shaquille O'Neal is rich.

The guy who writes his paycheck is wealthy.


Oprah is rich.

The guy who owns the TV network her shows are on is wealthy.

[Clintmax]

26. Of course they are...

All they care about (and I mean ALL) is themselves and their money! They don't give a single thought to the middle and lower class people who are in need. So long as they have their money and their tax breaks, that's all they care about.

[Tsiyu]

28. Money and the power it buys are addictive

Many wealthy people contribute more in one year to charity than I can hope to contribute in a lifetime, so I would answer that SOME are greedy.

And they are addicted to money, not necessarily understanding why themselves. I mean, you can't take it with you. All you can hope is to leave it to your kids so they can live lives of dissipation and squander it all....

But money is CONTROL to some in the highest form. My kids' Repuke daddy and his family don't care if my kids starve. They have not helped with college; they haven't called in years; they have not sent a Christmas or birthday card in years. Some of them have mucho dinero.

But they are IN CONTROL and they are PUNISHING the kids (they think) by withholding assistance. It's about morality and personal superiority for them more than it is about avarice. It's the only thing they've got of value. Their personalities suck.

[newportdadde]

33. I feel really sorry for your kid, thats sad.

The college money is bad but the birthday and Christmas cards are what got me. Just remember this, someday when your old and grey with not much time left your child will most likely be there with you. When you look at them and see a grown adult with their own family etc you can take pride that you raised them well. Your spouse and his family will just have piles of money to keep them company.

[Tsiyu]

56. Thanks for your words

It does hurt, even though the kids deal with it pretty well. But my son ( the one from this family) has already decided he is changing his name to my maiden name - after he graduated high school and not one of those fucks called, sent a card or attended the graduation. In my family, even distant cousins sent him a gift or a congratulatory message.

He and his "adopted" bro came and cleaned my house this week to make a little extra $$ and they did an awesome job. Their love means more to me than all the $$$ in the world, and I only wish the Repukes could understand that concept.

Thanks again, newportdadde and a belated hello :hi:

[Redstone]

30. Yes, they are that greedy.

Redstone

[Atman]

31. Survival instinct, and inside information

They generally aren't dumb.

They know what is coming. And it will be long-lasting pain. Well, for US, not them. But what they do know is pretty basic...stock up now, for tough times are ahead. When you're already rich and have staff do your cooking and paying your bills, you don't run to the Wal Mart and stock up on canned goods to help you ride out the coming social upheaval...you hoard the one thing you know and love best...

MONEY.

Bush is not going to give back the tax cuts because he gave them to his friends for a reason...buffer. The crash is coming, it will be hard and it will be painful. The rich are stocking up on cash, plain and simple. Our cash. And George Bush gave it to them.

[newportdadde]

32. I only know one 'rich' person he voted for Kerry.

He has several million I believe but still works like a regular person, albiet lives in a huge house. If it makes you feel any better he voted for Kerry even though he is a Republican he did so because although he believes our economy is screwed long term he thought Kerry and the Democratic party would help ease the landing.

Now my two very middle class friends however are still both strident * supports.

[La Coliniere]

39. Most are that greedy,

and vote republican't to boot. The rest, well we're wage slave laborers and white collar indentured (the the banks) servants. The upper 6% owns 60% of the wealth in this here country.

[darkenedhalo]

65. I just don't see whats so hard

about saying enough is enough and I dint really need any more. When does it get to the point of being ridiculous to have to have more?

[NorthernSpy]

41. the defining psychological trait of America's affluent is self-pity

Our economy is organized primarily to benefit them, and yet the affluent consider themselves terribly persecuted if anyone suggests that they actually pay to keep this society afloat. Delusions of victimhood, I guess.

:eyes:

[mitchum]

43. Yes they are, but they will still die and become food for worms

a fact that one can never remind them of enough

[Lilyhoney]

47. You don't have to be wealthy to be greedy. nt

[Zinfandel]

48. The wealth is gone...Except for the wealthy, who now own and are taking

ALL of it!

President Clinton at least believed in sharing the wealth....(And it worked, beautifully).

However, they hated him for it...despised him for it, (but it worked).

Sick fucks,(Bush/Cheney/Rove) they now want it ALL!

And they have it!!! Thank you, MSM!

[cassiepriam]

51. Greed, ignorance, apathy. American's downfall nt

[Jamastiene]

52. Uh, yeah. Of course, they are. They know about the crushing poverty in

the country. We are the ones who work for them for way too cheap (for the richest country in the world). They like it that way. They get to hang out in spas and go on vacations for 5 weeks every year while we slave and prop them up. Revolution is our only hope at this point. Yes, they are that greedy.

[Disturbed]

54. "the real problem is in Congress"

Most in Congress are wealthy. Many in top positions in the Govt. are also wealthy. Amerika is a Plutocracy.

[Jamastiene]

57. More like an aristocracy. Only the wealthiest can even afford to run for

congress with any hope of winning. It's a sad situation.

[lateo]

53. Apparently so...

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

58. In a word, Yes.

[proud2BlibKansan]

59. Not all of them

I know several very wealthy people who are die hard liberals and regularly donate time and money to charitable causes.

[leftofthedial]

61. Money! Money! Money money money money beautiful money!

Give me more more more more money! Money money money! Mine all mine! Mine mine mine mine mine! All mine! My money! My money! More more more more more more more more!

Yes. They are that greedy.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

63. I'm a GREEDY miser!

[Mr_Spock]

62. Yes

No explanation needed.

Liberals care about people.

Conservatives care about money and symbols, would stab their own mothers for a dollar.

[darkenedhalo]

64. I'm certainly no expert

But when you see a company's management making literally hundreds of times what the rank and file make something is seriously wrong.

[Lindacooks]

67. Yes.

To answer your question truthfully and simply.

[I_Make_Mistakes]

72. I believe the problem lies in the human capacity to justify and

rationalize things. I as a Christian, know that JC teaches about not accumulating wealth. How do Christians justify this, "Well everyone else is doing it!". This is our problem. We can justify and rationalize anything we want to (maybe not honestly and realistically), because everybody else is doing it.

I am going to cite the "Many are called, but few are chosen", to this mentality. We as a country, adore wealth, without understanding the methods of obtaining this wealth (Du maybe an exception to this rule, but look at percentages).

America is socialized to obtain wealth, power and standing come from this wealth. We have not exploited the situations that promote this wealth accumulation, (I am guilty of not reporting crimes to company officials, however, I had no mechanism to report such problems, no access to higher ups or indications they would care).

The internet will allow this information to flow freely. If I was a corp. exec., I would hire every whistle blower known to man, because, truthful accounting of the corp. position would be important to me. If that happened, I might actually be able to make good decisions.

I was put in a bad position, not a witness of fraud, but a victim as well as the exec's to fraud.

[NuttyFluffers]

74. you will know them by their actions. what do their actions tell you?

those that disagree already openly do so and fund against the GOP. but there's that larger group of wealthy who support them, and all their actions.

the answer is apparent. and no, they don't think themselves as just another american citizen to work together and strengthen the country.