Gouging -- You Presume Unlimited Supply

[Tace]

Sure, we all want everything cheap, all the time. That's part of why China is eating us alive.

Yet, when someone says "gouging," I figure they're counting on unlimited supply, and that they assume someone is trying to rip them off.

Imagine, if you will, that there are limited resources. Strange concept, I know. Imagine if demand outstrips supply, but price is capped. I'll only need another few seconds of your time.

The result is no more resource available -- at any price.

Need gas? Sorry we sold out. Need bread? Sorry, all gone. Need water? We sold it all.

I feel like I'll be viewed as some kind of Ferengi for saying this. But all resources are limited. They are, and they always will be.

People who even use the word "gouging" don't really understand the world. What I'm talking about is not some Capitalist plot. It's a simple fact of reality.

[ThomWV]

1. Wrong

It may be true that there are shortages on the roads comming out of Texas right now but there was no shortage during the time gas went from $1.50 to $2.50 - and that part of the show was pure gouging. Also, take a look at the rate of increase in oil company profits over the last 5 years and then come back and tell me we are not being gouged.

[Tace]

5. I'm Glad To Get A Response

There's no question that the people who control resources will seek to get the best price, especially in a Capitalist society. Yet, that profit is their motivation to bring the resource to market.

I think "gouging" doesn't really address the issue. I don't think you're wrong. It's just that it's easy for us to take for granted that there will be cheap resources available for us all the time.

I don't pretend to know the answer here. However, I'm an anti-corporatist. I believe that corporations should be subordinate to the will of the people. It's just that resources are limited and we need some way to allocate them fairly so that we don't end up with outages that will lead to things like starvation.

[pitohui]

2. we understand just fine

we understand that you're taking advantage of a national tragedy to rob us

after 9-11 the gas gougers were arrested who charged $3.99 for a gallon of gas

yet it's ok to gouge in a disaster where possibly two millions of ppl are displaced from their homes & actually have a NEED to travel

i have just as much need to evac & return from my evacuation to fix my home, as the rich man does who can pay $20 a gallon for gas, the price should not be allowed to change at a time of nat'l tragedy

just as stocks were not allowed to be traded for several days after 9-11

you do NOT take advantage of tragedy & emotion to rob ppl

i know a lot of ppl see it two different ways -- when a yankee dies in new york, gouging is not cool & the gougers should be arrested, when a southerner dies in new orleans, gouging is just fine & is somehow a lesson to us all

you know what, i call such ppl ghouls & hypocrites

you want to feed on us while we are bleeding

maybe vampires would be a better word

how do you sleep to justify such behavior

exxon is making record profits, there is NO shortage of product or profits, enough is fucking enough, wait until the damn bodies are counted & buried to start pimping for Big Oil again, have you no shame?

[Tace]

9. Don't Make Me Out To Be A Vampire

I'm only trying to tell you the truth. I'm plenty ashamed of the entire damned world.

I'll take the heat. But, if you blame me for the troubles of the world, you're barking up the wrong tree. Because you know what? It's not my fault if gas costs $100 a gallon.

We all know very well that if managed properly, there's enough resources for everyone on the entire planet to live like kings, in joyful bliss. That's the tragedy of the present day.

However, this "gouging" concept is very short-sighted, IMHO. Chrs

[democracyindanger]

3. The gouging you're dismissing

has been happening for at least a year, maybe longer. Reduced supplies and the sudden increased consumption by evacuees are only raising prices that were already gouging consumers.

Oil companies have been ripping people off for years. That's a "simple fact of reality."

[Tace]

10. Sure -- That's The Name Of The Game

And it's a craven, cruel, heartless, unforgivable fact.

But oil companies are oil companies. They're not charities. How many charities do you know drilling and distributing oil? Please let me know. I'll go get my gas for free from them.

BTW, Chavez in Venezuela seems to care about his people. He's also the fellow behind CITCO gas stations here in the states. Seems CITCO is a good place to buy gas.

Yet, in a crunch, like the Gulf disaster, there is definitely limited supplies. There are many thousands of people stranded all over the place with NO GAS at any price.

Personally, I think they should be giving the stuff away. But, as the poster above said, I must be some kind of vampire or something.

[democracyindanger]

12. So because oil companies

gouge consumers, your suggestion is to shrug and say, "That's life."

The gouging has been going on, and in all likelihood is going on right now in Texas. To say that that's how the market works and dismiss the possibility of gouging as being offered by people who don't know the meaning of the word is, frankly, just hot air.

[Tace]

21. No -- Let's Figure Out How To Feed & House & Clothe Everyone...

on the planet. Let's figure out how to best use our limited resources. There's plenty for everyone, if we can just figure out how to make it work.

[Skip Intro]

4. Some of both, imho. But supply must really be in bad shape if a Governor

cancells school satewide for a few days. And a bush-soldier at that- Perdue. The orders came from higher. This is a national thing. We're running on fumes.

[pitohui]

6. we're not running on fumes

if the goddamn storms would let up, we could produce & refine the oil just fine

i just wish all the jerks who complain abt re-building new orleans & the gulf coast would wake up & do the math, the reason they don't have gas in their damn tanks is because we have to keep shutting down production because of all this crap

when the storms stop & production resumes, the supply will also resume, but will gougers be prosecuted or oil companies be ashamed to admit they turned in another record-breaking quarter for profits? ha

[Tace]

13. Because Everyone Decided To Blow Town At The Same Time

They used up all the available gas. All gone. It surely didn't, and doesn't, have to be this way. We're actually close to complete agreement, pitohui, simply arguing two sides of a coin. You and I have agreed on a number of things in other threads. Although, if it makes you feel better to consider me a vampire, go ahead.

[Skip Intro]

14. we are where we are, at a point on a plane on which running out is a when,

not an if.

Its a finite supply that we are busy diminishing in increasing and some times obscene ways.

Increasing demand and dwindling finite supply only equals an end of the supply That's just a reality.

Are we there now? I don't know, but, but we did get the pipeline in Afghanistan, and we do control the oil in Iraq, and we are threatening oil-rich Iran and Venezeuala, and we did evacuate longtime business partners of the bush family - the chosen Saudis, the royals - right after 9*11, when no American was allowed to fly - I dunno. What seems to be the common element to you?

Maybe it is here.

[Tace]

17. My Take Is That We're Right At The Peak, Staring Down The Slope

It's all downhill from here.

I sure haven't meant to come off as an asshole. I was only trying to make a point about finite supplies. Thank you for your comments, they are very valuable to me.

[Tace]

11. We Are In Much, Much Worse Shape Than Most Anyone Seems To Understand

The oil companies stopped building refineries in the United States 30 years ago, because they couldn't make the numbers work. They couldn't figure out how they would make money, so they stopped making them. Call them criminals, but like I said in a post above, they're sure not saints -- they're oil companies.

[Cleita]

7. I think you are defending the wrong crooks.

I would like to see this as an opportunity to explore and implement alternative energy sources. Those who got gluttonously rich on oil will have plenty to live a sybaritic lifestyle for generations to come. When they run out of money, they will still have what is left of the oil supply with no one interested in buying. Oh, boo hoo.

[Tace]

15. I'm Not Defending Oil Companies! -- How Silly!

I figure we'll just get rid of the assholes, sooner than later. But, we've still got to do just exactly what you're saying -- find alternative energy sources. And, I'll add, conservation of available resources is key.

My take is that it won't be long before everyone's money is worth squat. People tripping out being rich are just living in a fantasy.

[bluestateguy]

8. You are overintellectualizing

Some things just should not be left to supply and demand curves and the marketplace.

[Tace]

16. Please Don't Misunderstand What I'm Trying To Say

I don't believe in "free markets." I think it's utopian bullshit. However, today, we're living in a free market wild west. And, we're witnessing the results.

[0rganism]

18. Fine, but the neos don't get to have it both ways

We can't have both an unlimited supply that obviates the need for alternative fuel sources and a limited supply that justifies these price increases.

I was thinking today that if bush wants to leave a single positive thing on his completely utterly shitty "presidential" record, he could take up Carter's cause of a nation independent of fossil fuels and put some solar panels back on top of the whitehouse.

[Tace]

20. Really -- I Think You've Articulated Something Very Important

The corporations and our government are bullshitting us all BIGTIME.

Sadly, I don't think Bush will ever do anything like Carter. However, the Dems that win in 2006 and 2008 (with fair elections) must make it a very high priority, as you suggest.

BTW, the Conservatives are leaving the Republican Party! Leaving the GOP in droves! That's where the latest decline in Bush's numbers is coming from. Fuckin' A!

[Tace]

19. Thank You, Everyone, For Engaging Me In Conversation

BTW, I'm getting gouged for my apartment... not really... oh, never mind.