Is DU becoming that which we hate most?

[walldude]

:rant:
What has happened here recently? I was attracted to this board by the Top 10 and stayed because of the forums. I found a place where I could have a reasonably intelligent discussion or debate without being called names, and without being flamed for my opinions. Lately though I have been getting flamed over really stupid shit. For actually *gasp* having the nerve to disagree with someone. Or *shock* for replying to a thread that asks “I took Money from Enron, Do you hate me?” with the response: "Nope but you lose some respect points, maybe you should give the money to some family that lost it’s pension, that might clear your conscience". The OP’s reply? HOW DARE YOU JUDGE ME? Uh.. ok… if you say so. I might mention that you did ask though.
We are becoming what we hate most. We used to pride ourselves on debating using facts, intelligent thought and opinions formed on factual information. Now all I get is “You are a Monumental Dumbass”. Or mostly “message deleted” so I don’t even know what names I was called. I don’t mind a heated debate, I have had many here and enjoyed them and become more informed because of them, but this freeper mentality of “you are a fucking moran if you don’t like the Clintons”(just an example people) is really getting on my nerves. And it’s not just me, I have seen long time respected posters getting flamed left and right. Look folks, I realize things are really bad, and I realize we are pretty much leaderless right now, all the more reason not to devolve into a bunch of bickering idiots. If you have an opinion express it, intelligently, with facts to back it up. If you don’t have facts, state that it is just your opinion, if you can’t manage to do that then keep your pathetic schoolyard name calling to yourself. I believe most people on DU can come to an agreement or even agree to disagree on most issues without resorting to debate tactics that would embarass a 7 year old.... We are supposed to be the smart ones...

[rockymountaindem]

1. I ran into that just last night.

Nobody called me names directly, though.

I agree things haven't been so good lately.

[Cleita]

2. The DU forums have changed since I first signed on

but I think it's the price of fame. Try to look at it a little more objectively. I do miss the clubby atmosphere of earlier days myself. However, DU is still a beacon of light in a very dense fog of freeperdom.

[intheflow]

39. I've only been on for about a year, but

even I have noticed some of the "clubbiness" has gone. I find a sense of that again in the groups and smaller forums. Having a small group of frinds in an active group recharges my batteries to hit GD or GD:P again full force. Sort of like how DU in general recharges me to hit the "real world" with renewed hope.

[djg21]

66. I think . . .

there are a lot of very young, very enthusiastic, but brash and naive people on this board who haven't yet come to realize that reasonable minds can differ. There are also many who seem to be unable to distinguish between what we would want in a perfect world, and what we might have a chance of actually obtaining in this one.

I just remind myself that these people don't really speak for the rank and file of the Democratic Party and let it go.

[Vektor]

3. I still like DU, but opinions can get a little heated...

..and the fur can fly at times. I've been flamed and attacked before too. I think we all have. Most people here are really cool, and there are a few that are nasty, but overall, it's a good haven for liberal thinkers, and pretty entertaining. Stick around. Find some forums you like and post there. There are forums for individual politicians and issues, and there are less attacks there since non-supporters aren't allowed to hijack.

They are a nice haven when things in GD get too rough.

[walldude]

12. Don't mind a heated debate, not at all

it's the "oh yeah well fuck off you idiot" type of debating that is bugging me. Don't worry, not going anywhere, I have a couple years and over 2000 posts invested in this place, this rant was more a plea for civility...

[Vektor]

18. I understand.

And yeah, the "fuck you dumb-ass, if you don't agree with me" is a bit much. I'm all for civility. I find if I'm getting too cranky and fired up, it's often because I'm pissed at what's going on in this country in general, and just venting a little too hard. Once I get into attack mode toward another DUer, I leave for a little while. I don't want to be the asshole, but lord knows, I can be.

When it starts to happen I have to take a breather. :-)

[kysrsoze]

101. Ehhh, just people who are still angry about finally learning the truth

You can bitch all you want here. There are still plenty of people here who will continually smack you down with facts. We have such a huge influx of people who are angry, but just starting to learn the way the world works. Over time, people gain knowledge and wisdom. It just takes time.

I'll admit there are a LOT of people lately who think they're absolutely right. But for every new cocky person, there is also someone who expects us all to move to solar power and composting RIGHT NOW. Over time, I would hope both sides will mellow a bit.

[orleans]

95. it's funny....i don't recall ever running into blatent attack posts

where someone calls someone else an asshole or whatever. (maybe i'm still new here?)
:shrug:

[Vektor]

116. It happens sometimes...

...but the mods are good about cleaning that up pretty quickly. If you see "deleted post" that might have been a personal attack that was removed from the thread.

[Coastie for Truth]

34. There are some forums that are nothing

but childish ad hominems and insults. Others are quite enlightening.

There is one forum that is in the depths. But I find "Peak Oil" and "Environment and Energy" to be a great bunch of appenders.

[Vektor]

42. Some are better than others.

I'm encouraging this poster to find ones he/she likes. I have perused many, and some are great, others, not so much. When I want a total break from politics and need to relax, I try the "Cooking and Baking" group. :-)

Lost of great recipes and what's not to like about food? No one fights in the baking forum!

[jpak]

137. It used be better - much better - until you-know-who

showed up.

After that, it was as if DU rules were suspended on that forum.

Some people are serial rule breakers - they get their threads pulled and then they're right back at it - and I have stopped alerting on them.

[RevCheesehead]

4. Word.

(I'd say "Amen," but I'm afraid I'd get flamed for that, too.)

[bleever]

68. I CAN'T BELIEVE YOU'D SAY THAT!!

That is so blatantly disprespectful of the Pro-Amen/Anti-"Word"-ists.

I used to think this was the kind of place a guy could use the word "alb" without worrying about whether or not that kind of speech was welcome here.


Sheeeesh!


:eyes:

[RevCheesehead]

73. C'mon, bleev

let me wrap you in my alb, and tie you with my cincture. ;)

:*

[bleever]

76. See, now that's the kind of Inclusive speech we look to at DU.

:patriot:

[RevCheesehead]

77. To the Ties that Bind

(and occasionally chafe) :toast:

[bleever]

87. To the Cuffs with Fluff!

:toast:

[Patsy Stone]

127. In response to this thread...

All I can say is: Self-righteous Hippies Rule!

Morning, all! :hi:

[RevCheesehead]

135. I knew the cuffs would get your attention.

:loveya:

[Patsy Stone]

146. Just imagine my surprise

when crispini was nowhere to be found. :)

[Nothing Without Hope]

143. ROTFLMAO!!! The Cuffs With Fluff!!!!!! Gasp! Wheeze!!!

bleeve, I can see from this exchange that the KOEB are still rolling right along.

TTTTB! :toast: TTCWF!

[RevCheesehead]

166. You need to pop in more often, my dear.

Because WE MISS YOU!!! :loveya:

[Nothing Without Hope]

168. Ah, Cheese, I miss you too. And the laughs feel really good.

Thanks for them - I think they cracked some ice.

:loveya: :loveya: :loveya:

(((((((( KOEB )))))))))

edited to add - off topic, but I think this will give YOU a laugh - I still smile every time I see the expression on his face and think of the story:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=221x15880

I bet Keith would get a laugh out of it too.

[Patsy Stone]

169. Hey, Hope!

Where ya been? I second what the Rev sez! Come by and say hi, wouldja?

TTTTB! :toast: :loveya:

[Nothing Without Hope]

171. Hey, Pats! Good to see ya!

:toast: 4TB :loveya:

I've been involved in long involved threads here and dKos, sorta took up all my energy and time. Been thinking I need to cut back, do something that's less of a continuous drain. But it seems important and so far I haven't.

I'll def drop by KOEB some night soon. I miss you all and could sure use the laughs and good spirits - both kinds!

[bleever]

170. Hey Hope, you heard the ladies:

We miss having you with us more often at KOEB.

Nature pics, Nordic skiers...

We need to make sure you're getting enough laughs in your daily diet of teeth-gritting and evil-overthrowing.

:hi:

[Nothing Without Hope]

172. Ah bleeve, you've put your single eye on it. I haven't been getting

enough laughs and the teeth-gritting and strivings at evil-overthrowing are really doing me in. I have several chronic illnesses and only so much energy to spend, and then it's gone and I'm wiped out. I've been thinking I have got to pull back more from the important-seeming work on all those heavy threads or I will burn out, but no one else seems to be saying that I think needs to be said. It's a real quandary.

The Nordic skiers! Uff da! We surely did have some great laughs, and I surely could use some more of them. I get so sad and anxious and tired, and that benefits nobody.

I'll def have to stop by the KOEB clubroom some night soon. Keith had some very hard-hitting - I actually got to see the show some time back at a friend's house, and he minced no words! Saw some recent video clips too. Missed the blow-by-blow from my KOEB friends, though.

:loveya: bleeve!

[The Magistrate]

124. Why, Reverend....

"Don't think me inhospitable. Anything you want, come around off hours, we'll make it work."

[RevCheesehead]

134. LOL.

It's our unofficial slogan of the KOEB. That's the Keith Olbermann Estrogen Brigade. Let's just say we are loving in every way. :evilgrin:

[The Magistrate]

144. Rather A Deadwood Fan Myself, Reverend

When it first came out, someone whose name escapes recollection said the dialouge "sounded like D.U.'s Magistrate with Tourette's"....

[lumberjack_jeff]

88. Ni!

Oh, what sad times are these when passing ruffians can 'ni' at will to old ladies. ;)

[RevCheesehead]

89. Who ya calling "old?"

[femrap]

5. I think people are very angry...and I don't blame them...

I am too...so people are lashing out. And people who don't deserve it are on the receiving end of that anger.

[BeHereNow]

8. Ah, but anger and "in-fighting" feeds the very beast we wish to starve

Remember this fact before you are tempted to
give in to such activity and energy.
BHN

[WiseButAngrySara]

78. Oh Dear! Should I change my name? Seriously, I've thought about it! n/t

[BeHereNow]

98. Don't be a silly- The problem is not that simple.

Anger without compassion is.
But you already know that.
Anger is often justified-
What we DO about it is where the problem occurs.
BHN

[TankLV]

51. A lot of short tempers everywhere, not just on DU, lately.

We're all OD'd on "war criminal bush* fatigue".

[madaboutharry]

6. It feels a lot like it did during

the primaries. OMG, this place was horrible. I couldn't take it. The Dean supporters abusing the Kerry supporters, the Kerry supports lashing out at the Dean supporters, and the Clark people caught in the middle. There was a lot of name calling. It was ugly and sad at the same time. It seems like things get really ratcheted up when the stakes are high. I sometimes feel people aren't doing a lot of thinking and instead reacting with emotion. It comes and goes in waves around here.

[Quixote1818]

29. Hummm, I haven't noticed any more than usual?

But I have stayed away from divisive threads. I have noticed a lot of threads going after Bill Clinton though, but thats about it.

[titoresque]

7. For the most part I agree but...

We're all just human. We get angry too. I'm not about to stick up for anyone here, because I'm just as guilty, and I've been attacked for little or no reason myself.

I think what we're experiencing is a shift. We're NOT leaderless....it's just that people need to come to terms with the fact that WE are the leaders.

I don't know what to tell ya, things are changing...people are changing. Hopefully we'll all shake hands and break bread on the flip side. :)

[Tiggeroshii]

11. I like that idea

You're absolutely right. =)

[fearnobush]

9. Some do tend to mimic the Freeper mentality, I guess they hear it

too much at work, or from freeper type family members. I for one got bashed and called silly names by long time member because I guess, he didn't want to examine the facts I presented, which was Katrina's accurate forcast posted by the National Hurricane Center at 5pm the Friday before she hit. I was called a moron for defending the National Hurricane Center's forcast! So "I hear your pain" but do agree with you about the Clinton's.

[Catch22Dem]

10. Whatever! You're a monumental dumbass!!!

:evilgrin: I kid!!!!!

Yeah, I had a Seinfeld thread in the lounge a while back, obviously nothing serious, just "you remember the one where..." kind of stuff. Someone felt the need to drop in and tell me how seinfeld was complete shit, how it was completely forgetable, etc... Yeah, fine, whatever. So forgetable that the thread became huge with people retelling their favorite episides. I'm thinking, "what a dick, you stop in here to shit on my thread because you don't like the show?" I left for a few days. Just really rubbed me the wrong way.

Stay loose & don't take other posters too seriously.

[whatever4]

94. Yes and I never denied it, but really...

Me, whatever4 Ha ha :)

Can I chime in, as one of the newbies? It REALLY bothers me when threads are locked long before they've had a chance to resolve themselves. Sometimes it's over "inflammatory" topics, but then again, if those are the topics we're throwing around, it seems better to let people discuss them, while an attempt at civility is being maintained. It feels very juvenile sometimes, honestly, to see topics cut off.

But aside from that, I've felt mostly welcomed here. Although one thing I worry about is it seems socialism and like philosophies are the leading edge, which I don't like, but can hardly do anything about. Not to be insulting, just to say I myself feel attacked here, when in imho, my point of view, as a libertarian to the best of my understanding, is one of the few rational, original conservative one's you'll likely find, and if we throw out ideas counter to socialistic reforms, like mine, we might not wind up with the best brand of reformed government. I think it would be a mistake to throw out all the valid ideas of capitalism, and I'm tired of getting slammed just for that concept.

I mean really, it's the social conservatives that are the true problems, because concepts of fiscal conservatism have NOT been applied by this Admin. They've taken actions using those concepts, but the intents were never representational of our fiscal needs, they represented business/corporate needs of particular business partners and other lobbyists. Social conservatives are the one's interested in marriage laws and prayer in school, and it isn't the same thing as fiscal conservatism. I could be wrong, but I don't believe current socially conservative ideas match up with libertarians very much, if at all.

This is probably longer than it should be. It's been frustrating me. It's getting harder and harder to make it clear that those two aren't the same thing, social verses fiscal, and for people like me, it doesn't feel fair. Personally, I'll stand with the liberals AND their disagreeable ecomonic policies, before I'll stand with conservatives and their "social" policies. Know what I mean? I've been lumped with the neocons in the worst way sometimes, and don't feel my attitude or ideas deserved it, but it seemed to play well with popular opinion.

[muriel_volestrangler]

111. The problem is a large membership

which varies from people who want to discuss controversial subjects, in which there may be big disagreements, but in measured tones, to the "mad as hell and not going to take it any more" people, who want to let off steam, or rally the troops around their own issues. Mix the two, and you get threads locked.

It's GD which suffers from it the most. If you can find a smaller forum with a relevant subject (in your case Economy, Budget, Taxes and Jobs might be interesting), you'll usually get a more reasoned discussion, if slower (exceptions: Israel/Palestine, Gun Control, and, to a certain extent, Religion and Theology). The Editorials forum is also a good place, with hardly any flame fests (perhaps a properly written opinion piece gets people thinking rather than reacting).

[karlrschneider]

13. DU is a community of 70,000+ folks. Some of them are bound to be

of opinions that you won't find agreeable or comfortable with. Don't let your blood pressure go out of control. :D

[walldude]

16. I don't mind the differing opinions

and I don't mind debating them, I would just like a little civility. Another DU'er reminded me about the "ignore" button, which I have seldom used, but plan to much more in the future...

[karlrschneider]

32. I've used the ignore button, but very sparingly. It's really hard to be

civil when confronted by utter stupidity, and the occasional freeper who infiltrates obviously makes the situation all the more exasperating as you've undoubtedly noticed. :D

[Selatius]

14. Everybody develops a bias to a certain degree

This is us. We are all humans, and we all have flaws as a result. Some individuals, though, decided to use reason and evidence as the basis of dialogue, but, of course, there will always be times when we lose our guard and allow our bias or ideology to cloud our judgment.

[az chela]

15. I totally agree

I was reading some posts the other night and thought I had fell into a soap opera!!! People arguing and talking really stupid.I have a hard time actually reading a lot of the posts as they are so juvenile.
Who gives a shit if bush is drinking???He is a murderer and our country is going down the tubes because of his ignorance and greed so I doubt his drinking has anything to do with what is wrong with this government.
This is something important,I got an email from Cindy earlier and she has 4 security guards that will be with her at all times tomorrow.A billionaire from LA is paying for it.
If anyone wants to know, Cindy is exhausted and mentally having a hard time as she only gets 2 or 3 hrs sleep a night and is running from one event to another the rest of the time and also grieving for Casey.
She has more strength than anyone I know and is bringing down this administration almost on her own.People should send her powerful energy this weekend.If you cant be there in body than be there in spirit.
Bush actually left Dc and went to a Bunker in Colorado springs to watch CNN so he doesnt have to deal with the rally.Think about that!!!
How many people do you know that have the guts of Cindy Sheehan ,I am so proud to call her my friend.As for Walldude You ROCK !!!!!

[Name removed]

22. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[az chela]

50. Stupid people say stupid things

No one has a right to condemn anything Cindy has done.Do they know the sacrifices she has made to make all this possible???Her 3 children
miss her,her husband is divorcing her,most of her friends that she has had for years dont want anything to do with her.Several family members dont talk to her.She lives on the road,gets very little sleep and takes on anyone who wants to know the truth.She is on a mission to help make this a better place for all of us and anyone that doesnt agree with that can shut the hell up.As for you Walldude,you never complain even tho you also have a hard life,you are an excellent father and husband and your family is so lucky to have you.I think you are a very special person and your loyalty is very admiral.I know how much you wanted to be in DC this weekend if I were able I would have driven you there myself.Keep on defending what you believe in and you will get to meet with CINDY one of these days if I have to arrange it myself!!!You are someone I am proud to call my friend!!!

[WiseButAngrySara]

82. Good thoughts to Cindy! (and You and Walldude also)...I bet you're right

about B* being in Colorado to avoid Cindy and the war protestors. As usual, he tried to lie about his underlying motivations, now using the hurricane to try to redeem himself from Katrina, but in fact, he certainly could care less. Going to Texas or Colorado distances himself from 'the troublemakers' and gives him the image of caring (HAH-HAH...even the freepers aren't buying THAT one!)

[Quixote1818]

17. Their are stupid mean people on the left and right

DU is going to attract a variety of people from Moderates to nutty far, far, far, far left fringe folk. Some will be nice some will be mean, some will be tactful and some wont. I once got attacked when I started a peace thread between Dean and Clark supporters. I offered an olive branch and someone took the branch out of my hand and started tying to ring my neck with it. The Mods got rid of her/his post and I moved on. I wouldn't dwell on the nasty ass holes. Their are a few in every crowd.

Most of us love you! :hug:

[Meldread]

19. Well, DU is a political site.

Politics is a heated issue. Add to the fact that most folks here are frustrated and angry about what is going on in the world and... tempers will flare.

Just remember this little pearl of wisdom: "Opinions are like assholes, everyone has one, and everyone else's stinks but your own."

[omega minimo]

20. Haven't noticed the anger...What about the triviality of GD threads lately

Are these signs of the stress that EVERYONE is feeling right now, overloaded by Katrina and the aftermath, the mask being ripped off Bushco's brutality, the strain of keeping the head in the sand (or not) and another hurricane making landfall?

:hug:

Thanks Walldude, I borrowed your beeyootifool Diamante Love Time Cover (with props to you) for some threads. Hope that's okay?

[walldude]

25. Absolutely! That kid was incredible. I posted that picture

all over the Internet, well at least my little corners of the net... hehe :toast:

[applegrove]

21. We are passionate about what we believe. Put your boots on. And

participate without expecting anyone to hold your hand. And then you'll be pleasantly surprised when they do.

DUers are great. And flame wars get put out by the mods.

I have no complaints. Except for too many lurking freepers. But that is life.

[Cha]

23. walldude, you ain't seen nothin'

yet..unless you were here for the 2004 primaries.. Just Wait until you get a load of the 2008 primares.

[charlie]

24. It waxes and wanes

We've been like this before. Many times. With relatively placid periods in between. Don't worry about it, just wait it out.

[BlueIris]

90. That's what I was going to post.

I haven't been an official member for as long as some of you, but I have been lurking here a while and the level of debate users are capable of on the site appears to fluctuate in my eyes. And as mean, catty and contentious as things are here right now--I don't think it's as bad as it was last Nov. Or last January. Or last April/May. Frankly, I'm not sure it can get worse than April 2005. That climate was CRAZY volatile, and everytime a dam had burst, I saw more than a few regular posters gloating about the aftermath. Thankfully, things were more intelligent, calm and polite six weeks or so later. This period, too, will pass.

[SDB1]

26. I've started to see this.....

....and I've only been here a short period of time. I think it's what is really wrong with the overall political atmosphere in the United States. People are intolerant of people with differing points of view. It's friggin' crazy. On the conservative side they just assume that everyone thinks the same way and the ones who don't never speak up. On the liberal side the vocals demand everyone thinks the same way and if they don't the abuse starts. People need to be aloud to express their opinions without getting bashed and ridiculed. Hell I've got friends on both sides and it gets downright uncomfortable to discuss any type of politics.

[Boomer]

40. We're all on edge

I regretfully confess that I've become edgier year by year due to the constant sense of simmering rage over cultural and political issues that are beyond my control.

I've caught myself posting in anger, coming off harsher than I intended, veering into rants that are more an internal dialogue than they are a discussion with other people. Whenever that happens I slap myself, but of course the damage is already done.

Thanks for the post -- which is another timely reminder to take a deep breath until I recover my perspective.

[fishnfla]

27. got a link for that?

facts? spare me! :eyes:

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[graywarrior]

30. DU ain't for sissies.

It's a micro example of the rest of America.

[walldude]

36. Well we used to

set the example Although apparently I missed alot of fun during the primaries...

[graywarrior]

41. It's an ebb and flow here.

2006 elections we'll be at eachother again. I love DU.

[snot]

110. LUV your duck. nt

[Coastie for Truth]

31. Significant decline in civility and propiety (and rational discourse). NT

[QC]

33. As this place has gotten bigger, it's gotten dumber.

Meaner, too. I know that sounds harsh, but it's the truth--DU has been a victim of its own success.

[karlrschneider]

35. It's a big city. Big cities have a small component of assholes

it's just a fact of life ...uh, in the 'big city'...
:eyes:

[QC]

47. But few cities are so dominated by their assholes,

and few cities are as rigidly conformist and relentlessly trivial as this place has become.

I signed up here in 2001, not long after the site went online, and I have seen a definite decline in both the quality of the discussion and the civility we find here now. For every person here who's genuinely interested in a serious discussion, it seems that there are now ten or fifteen who are just here to shout, posture, and preen.

[karlrschneider]

61. Ooo...that kinda hurts. Sure, there are a-holes around here, and I'm

probably guilty of occasionally shouting, posturing & preening, but do you really think the problem is all that prevalent? I really don't.
Now and then, I just take a break and avoid DU for a week or so...it does wonders for my blood pressure. :D

[QC]

65. Actually, you're one of the interesting people.

You actually deal in things like evidence and logic--what a concept!

I've been staying away lately myself--more interested in hurricane news. It does help to take a break now and then.

I guess what bothers me most is how people can post smart, well-thought-out threads and they sink like rocks while the ones where someone makes a big production out of stating the painfully obvious rack up hundreds of posts.

You know, someone posts, in all caps, "I WILL NOT LET NAZIS, THE KLAN, AND FRED PHELPS INTO MY PARTY JUST TO GET A FEW VOTES AND I WILL NOT EAT PUPPIES AND KITTENS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" No one has suggested such a thing, of course, but still everyone lines up to congratulate them on how bravely they have spoken truth to power. Meanwhile, that thread that meant something is on page nine, about to drop into the archives.

And then there's the threads where we all line up and declare to be DINOs those people who have been with us 99% of the time yet have lately done something that displeased someone. Sometimes I get whiplash watching politicians' reputations hurtling up and down. They're either saints or devils here, and keeping up with their moment-by-moment status changes is very difficult.

And yet, there's still enough good info to be found here to make it worthwhile. Sometimes it's like digging through a gigantic shellheap in search of that one pearl, but there's still no better place to follow a breaking story.

[JNelson6563]

69. Well said

I get so tired of seeing several threads on the same thing which often boil down to vanity posts. "OMG!! Get out of the hurricane's path!!!! NT" "What's your favorite song?" I have seen all kinds of crap in GD. The mods are probably sick and tired of the alerts I send that all say "lounge fodder".

Seems so many think GD is their personal lounge. Remember when the place had so many threads with informative OPs with lots of follow-ups that had links and blurbs and relative commentary?

*sigh*

Julie

[QC]

74. Thanks!

I do remember those smart threads. A few years back, I got an amazing education at DU and passed on the things I learned to my friends and family.

Now, not so much. Between the tinhat extravaganzas, like the multiple threads concerning that absurd Tom Flocco story about Barbara Olson being found on the "Poland/Austria border" with "millions of lyra" and the AOL teen chatroom crap and the nonstop spew of vanity threads, it's discouraging.

Love the bit about "OMG!! Get out of the hurricane's path!!!! NT" Made me chuckle.

[karlrschneider]

72. Well, {blush}, thanks...but I'm just an old phart who's seen a lot of life

and I say what I mean and mean what I say, usually. ;-)

My 'patience quotient' has changed quite a bit the last 3 decades or so and so I've become just a tiny bit less judgmental but it's hard to be calm and collected amidst a sea of idiocy such as that I see around here in a quagmire of 'Red' and fundies.* If I somehow got the job of U.N. Ambassador, I'd be the polar opposite of Bolton...just as irascible in most ways, but coming from the other direction. So diplomatic jobs are among others as not to be forthcoming for my gruff exposition. :D

* I wasn't clear..."around here" was meant to refer to my geographical location, NOT to DU in general. I prolly oughta go to bed. ;-)

[QC]

75. I appreciated your hurricane posts.

I got really tired of seeing people observe a wobble in two or three frames of a satellite loop and then rush breathlessly to DU to declare that the storm had suddenly shifted course and was going to slam right into {insert unlikely target here}.

Since I live in the Florida panhandle, and have thus spent a lot of anxious hours watching storms, I know how posts like that can scare the crap out of people needlessly, people who are already on the edge. (When I pointed that out to one especially egregious offender, I was accused of being a smartypants.)

It was nice to see you explaining how these things actually work.

[karlrschneider]

80. Thanks. I lived in Tampa from 1979 to 1993 (and sorry to say I don't miss

it)...came back to Oklahoma to be near my aging mom (90 but still sharp)...and as you probably know I'm a commercial pilot since 1963 so I do actually know some meteorology. :-)

Anyway, I'm a piss-poor diplomat, but I do try to be brutally honest in any and all discussions. It doesn't always endear everyone. lol

[nonconformist]

160. What saddens me is that posts that are really informative

And clearly took a great deal of time to compose drop like a rock, yet a one-line post will get dozens of replies in a matter of minutes. Thread recommending has helped with that some, but still.

[Tace]

37. It's The Newbies -- Every Time We Get A Membership Surge...

This place heats up. I've experienced the same exact thing during several distinct waves in the past. Things cool down after the membership surge ebbs a bit and the membership matures a bit.

p.s. And I'm sure part of it is trolls who show up when the going gets good. Chrs

[donheld]

38. IMHO I think we've all been a little on edge lately

Maybe it's all the hurricane shit, or maybe just Bushit in general. Don't sweat it Walldude. Your no dumbass. The only dumbass is those who expect us to all think alike.

[autorank]

43. walldude, I can clear up at least one thing ....

:sarcasm:

It's not “you are a fucking moran if you don’t like the Clintons”

Correctly started it's "you're a fucking moron if you do like the Clintons."

Some people never get it right. Ignore them or work to educate, but, please take no offense. They simply didn't get the memo.

I think you've had a run of bad luck. Hopefully, it will play out soon.

People need to lighten up on each other and put the heat up on the Insane Clown Posse running this country into the ground.

[Old Mouse]

44. It has been bad for a while

I only recently started posting again because Katrina made Bush seem vulnerable enough for us to make a difference... but the number of people with personal agendas is depressing.

[southlandshari]

45. Truth?

I have a love-hate relationship with DU. The only other thing I can compare it with is my relationship with my family. There are those here - and in my family - who I can count on for support through thick and thin. There are people here - and in my family - who drive me up the wall, who make me laugh, who make me cry, who write things so profound - and who write things so irritating - they take my breath away.

It ain't perfect. But neither am I, so I guess I'm in the right place!


:hi:

[The Magistrate]

52. It Is Pretty Mild, Ma'am, In My View

In some ways, it was a bit harsher and more rowdy several years ago....

[titoresque]

53. ohhh I was so angry at you awhile ago

for locking a thread I wasn't able to post to.......but thanks for this post. You're human....as we all are. :hi:

[southlandshari]

55. ROFL!

I know how frustrating that is - it even happens to mods sometimes!

:rofl:

[Gronk Groks]

46. Trying to be rational in an irrational world...

...is stressful at times. Right now the world is having a serious case of irrationality bordering on insanity.

Being calm and collected is an excellent goal. Encouraging the newbies to understand this is not always easy. The ones who don't will leave after a while. The rest of us will survive their travails in DU.

Now trying to keep one's head clear of Homicidal thoughts toward the current Mis-Administration is another matter...

[flowomo]

48. I mostly hate the pointless posts....

cheerleading to the choir posts with no content other than to scream the obvious. I come here for ideas and information, not juvenile emotional outbursts that only echo mostly what we all agreed on long ago. The board gets swamped with garbage and important stuff sinks like a rock in a sea of it. But there are still enough nuggets of intelligence to keep me hanging on...

[titoresque]

54. when someone posts something

profound or extremely ignorant and others respond...that's where we get an exchange of ideas, or validation. DU is also a place for community and without cheerleading or stating the obvious....wheres the feeling of community?

[flowomo]

56. not here for community.... I have a family and friends for that...

I'm here for ideas and information.

[titoresque]

59. I'll share story...

I was in a supermarket last year around Christmas.....people get ugly at Christmas...anyway, I was apparently spending too much time in one place and didn't notice the other shopper behind me. She said a few nasty things out loud, pushed her cart to almost hit me and huffed by..........I guess she didnt notice that she wasnt the only one shopping, I guess she didnt notice she wasn't the only one who had a reason other than HER reason to be at that same store. I guess I could have told her to fuck off, but I didn't. Wouldnt have mattered much I guess.

[Rex]

49. You moran!

Get off the cross, it's my turn! :evilgrin:

[walldude]

67. I was afraid it would come across like that

It wasn't meant to be a pity me post. I was just hoping for a little more civility. I could really care less what people think of me personally, I have enough friends.. Maybe it's that I have 3 kids and they torture me with the 3rd grade debates so I come here hoping for something a little more mature...

[Rex]

71. I feel your pain.

Actually I understand exactly what you mean, I can think of a zillion things I hate about people and their idiosyncrasies. I know I say stupid shit at times, but I'm a hugh moran so it should be expected.

[SaveElmer]

57. I don't think there is one Democratic US Senator that has not been called.

A DINO, or corporatist, or traitor, or some other nasty name on this board.

It does really seem we are sacrificing the very good for the perfect...which is of course not obtainable.

[Az]

58. The bigger the tent gets

The more reactionary types are going to be part of it. There are 1000s of people posting here everyday. The fact that the vast majority of them are able to maintain a civil dialog should tell you that you are in good company.

But in such a large group of people you have to realise that you are increasingly likely to run into someone esles hot topic button. You don't know what they have been through. You don't know what stresses are in their life. It doesn't make you wrong. But you can make a difference by trying to understand the individual. And if find out they are still a jerk.... well then you have something to talk about.

[Prisoner_Number_Six]

60. The Second Law of Thermodynamics

Long version: The more you try to hold things together, the more they fall apart.

Short version: Chaos Rules.

Actually, when you get seventy thousand and more people together, you're naturally going to get all that goes along with that-- bullies, paranoiacs, holier-than-thous, and of course more than a few closet freepers and people who just can't stand the concept that their arguements may not be absolutely correct at all times and why the hell can't everybody SEE THAT I'M RIGHT.

Consider yourself lucky this is just a cyberboard-- at least this way you don't have to put up with BO, smelly feet, bad breath, and all the other baggage that comes with such a live get-together. If this were live, we'd end up exactly like the Dome in NO.

You all know I'm right, dammit. You just can't admit it. :evilgrin:

[ncrainbowgrrl]

62. DU (like almost everything) is what you want to see in it.

If you only want to see the bickering and in turn choose to participate in it, of course it's going to look like a community of unfeeling individuals.

If you want to read excellent analysis by some really amazing people, come to DU. If you want to learn about issues that aren't "your main issue," come to DU. If you want to call someone a frickin' @##*hole, that's your prerogative,... sure... it just means that your experience is going to be colored by personal attacks.

I come to DU to learn. I come to DU to laugh. I come to interact with other like-minded individuals, and one thing I've learned (especially while serving as a moderator) is to count to ten before posting. If I wouldn't say it to someone in person, I really shouldn't feel comfortable saying it to someone under the guise of relative anonymity on a message board.

[Batgirl]

63. The supery-dupery impatient know-it-alls

remind me of myself when I was a lot younger. It makes me cringe now to remember how right I used to be about about everything. Luckily this phase of my life occurred before the invention of the message board.

I suspect DU members are a pretty opinionated bunch to start with, as indicated by the fact that we all somehow ended up here. Add in the fact that life in Bush's America is like being on the Tilt-A-Whirl at your local low-rent carnival, and the ride keeps going faster, spinning crazily out of control, with cars and their screaming occupants periodically being jettisoned off the broken track, not to mention that we're all taking turns throwing up on ourselves and each other -- I can see why we get on each other's nerves.

[mom cat]

64. We are open to attempts at sabotage from the freepers. I think that we can

the alarm button when it gets too offensive. The more powerful our voice becomes, the more likely that there will be attempts from "dirty tricksters" to cause dissent and division.

[FM Arouet666]

70. It happens every so often, but hang in there

The expanded forums have helped decrease the attacks. I will often pull my punches in GD, where I might otherwise be more vociferous in the skeptic or atheist forums. As for your example, I agree with you. You ask for judgment, then take offense at the reply? Sad, but they are still in the minority.

[TreasonousBastard]

79. You think you got a problem with this place? Try...

OUR job.

See that little gray guy up there? That means we get to see ALL the nastiness. Bile and venom that flies on by most people sits in our little forum festering and rotting until it turns us from mild-mannered activists into censorious demons ready to close down the board on a moment's notice.

Nah, it's not that bad. It's just in your point of view and how you react to the stupidity and swill that some, and it's really very few, are able to spew out.

We gots us some cliques, and some newbies who haven't worked it all out yet, some resident trolls, some assholes we keep around as pets, and some old-timers who are unaccustomed to some of the changes or think they run the place. But mostly this place is still a goldmine of information and a font of goodwill.

We try to weed out the worst of the swill, but don't always get it all, and some things some people will just never agree on. But there's enough here for everyone to have a place and some quality time.

Relax, and don't let them spoil the good stuff. If you think this is bad, your head will explode with next year's elections, or the '08 primaries.

[BlueIris]

93. "...some assholes we keep around as pets..."

Hee. I've kinda been wondering about why some people are allowed to continue posting...even though they don't break the rules, some of what they do post is pretty borderline IMHO. But that's me. Sometimes, I wonder how I've kept my account this long.

For the official record, as I've communicated to the mods a lot now, I think the moderators' jobs must be DAMN hard. I only see a few offensive messages every day. I can't image what it must be like to have to deal with all of the delete-worthy crap that shows up on this site even in a few hours.

[TreasonousBastard]

155. Well...

"Sometimes, I wonder how I've kept my account this long."

Sometimes we do, too. :evilgrin:


Just kidding. Usually, it takes a lot to get thrown out of here. It often doesn't seem like it to a some of people who spend most of their time in one or two of the main forums, but we really do encourage a diversity of opinion. It's the fights and the stridency that we try to control. And there's more than enough of that, so it ain't easy.

And "diversity of opinion" doesn't mean Republicans can come in here to "educate" us.

[dhinojosa]

104. Oh boo freaking hoo.

You love getting those hate emails from rightwing nutbags and you know it.

:rofl:

[TreasonousBastard]

156. Not really...

the grammar and spelling aren't nearly as good as the hate mail from the leftwing nutbags.

[dhinojosa]

165. People like me aim to please....

Courteously yours,
Leftwing nutbag

[Kukesa]

114. "goldmine of information"

you hit the nail on the head, TB. There's nothing like DU.

[TreasonousBastard]

157. Nothing in the world that I've seen...

there's plenty of good sites out there, but you end up seeing most of them linked to right here.

One stop shopping for news and information. If you can keep up with it all.

[southlandshari]

128. ...

:rofl:

[spacelady]

151. I'm a pet aren't I, I just knew it, I'm one of those asshole pets

arf, meow, moo, squawk, sssssssss.

[TreasonousBastard]

158. Now, just hold on...

stop that clawing and don't bite.

I'm getting your dinner.

(pat, pat...)

[spacelady]

159. Purrrrr, chomp, snort, bite, what are you looking at? MMMMM slurp.....

I feel better now.

[LibertyorDeath]

81. I understand your points but please remember

with over 77,000 registered users there's only so much the mods can do
to keep the shit trolls at bay.

It up to us, all of us to alert on the scum suckers & not feed them.

If only 2.5% of DU members are right wing trolls

we're talking 1,925 rightards trying to drag down the quality
of the site.

Alert on these simple minded goose stepping tards every time
you come across one.

[Pushed To The Left]

83. I love DU, but some things have disturbed me too

The posts celebrating the deaths of Reagan and Renquist were really disappointing to see. I don't think we have to hate Republicans personally in order to hate their ideology and want to defeat them.

[flowomo]

85. I'll second that.

[Mr_Spock]

84. I agree - the bitterness level is very high as of late. My GF wont even

post here - at least not as of late - because the level of anger and bitterness has reached epidemic proportions. I mean many people are not even following the rules (I have added emphasis where I think it's appropriate):

"Constructive criticism of Democrats or the Democratic Party is permitted. When doing so, please keep in mind that most of our members come to this website in order to get a break from the constant attacks in the media against our candidates and our values. Highly inflammatory or divisive attacks that echo the tone or substance of our political opponents are not welcome here.

You are not permitted to use this message board to work for the defeat of the Democratic Party nominee for any political office. If you wish to work for the defeat of any Democratic candidate in any General Election, then you are welcome to use someone else's bandwidth on some other website.

Democratic Underground may not be used for political, partisan, or advocacy activity by supporters of any political party or candidate other than the Democratic party or Democratic candidates. Supporters of certain other political parties may use Democratic Underground for limited partisan activities in political races where there is no Democratic party candidate.

Do not post broad-brush smears against Democrats or the Democratic Party. "




"Do not post broad-brush smears against Democrats or the Democratic Party"

I thought we came here to get away from the broad-brush attacks that the Repukes are known for. And I get soundly criticized for defending the Dems who are the target of said broad-brush attacks. I think I have better things to do with my time but I CANNOT ALLOW THESE ATTACKS TO GO UNCHALLENGED. Please use a little judgment before saying that a prominent Democrat can "go to hell".

[BlueIris]

105. THANK YOU.

I really wish people would also read the section of the message board rules asking people to refrain from engaging in "antisocial behavior." Yeah, I realize the definition of antisocial is a little subjective, but repeatedly posting...some of the creepy bigoted, misogynist, sexist and other asshole things some people around here insisted on posting (and yes, I alert like made on those folks) HAS to qualify as antisocial if not offensive.

[SaveAmerica]

86. I often wonder how much is not freeper mentality but actual freepers?

AKA The Pretenders...

[Joe Chi Minh]

136. I feel the same, perhaps to the point of paranoia, but

you know the saying about being paranoid.

Some of the operatives are infuriatingly transparent, if for no other reason than that their m.o. is so often the same. My favourite (not) is when they post what they consider regular DU credentials (often beginning with their username), slagging off Bushco, etc., and then, in their fond imagination, at least, "lowering the boom" with a new paragraph, beginning:

"Sadly,....", then peddling absolute bullshit, meant to demoralise the DU reader. "Unfortunately, Rove is so clever, there's no way we can blah, blah, blah; they own all the judiciary, etc., etc".

Then, maybe, "Hey, don't worry! We should concentrate on the 2200 election. Boy, will we be able to give them what for, then!

Another one is "Ooh errr, those Republicans are so mean, be careful about upsetting them; better to be conciliatory and inclusive".

[flaminbats]

91. DU is now the main reason I am a Democrat..

I agree with Mike Malloy, our Congressional and state Democrats are only Republicans without any guiding philosophy. However, Democrats like Jimmy Carter, John Lewis, and the voters active at DU continue to remind me where our party earned its name!

Screw the DNC, screw the DLC, and screw Harry Reid..they don't control our government. Our party lost power because it fell into the trap of answering personal attacks, working with a party that had nothing to give us in return, always accepting criticism of conservatives, and a growing fear to even be associated with liberal votes.

I have two very good reasons to stop being a Democrat..I feel betrayed by our leaders and feel like my vote is no longer wanted by either side. But what is the alternative..what can I do that really makes a difference? Until I find a viable alternative, Democrats shall keep getting my vote!

[Spiffarino]

92. Nominated

It's good to look inward from time to time. Solidarity may be crucial right now, but we still should be self-critical and introspective when necessary or else we really are just like them.

Nice post, Walldude.

[nashville_brook]

96. sadly, DU is losing its "center" -- censorship is a big prob. trolls prey

on that energy.

this identity crisis as to whether we are a news out-let or news in-let is taking its toll. no one is really sure what is okay to talk about.

[progressivebydesign]

97. Been here since 2001. It's all cyclical.

We go from combatant to warm and fuzzy weekly. Try to imagine 70,000 intelligent, opinionated, people in a large venue all talking at once about things that matter to them personally. Add into that mix some alcohol, some lurkers, some freepers, some jokesters, a bit of pot, and you have DU. I take a break when it gets wierd or if I feel attacked, but I always come back.. 4 years and counting.

[dhinojosa]

99. Its a big tent.

I wouldn't worry about it. We are all basically on the same page. I did I post where I called everyone here an asskisser for stupidly loving Hugo Chavez. I got quite an earful, but oh well. It wouldn't be a discussion group without disagreements and the occasional dumbass remark.

[upi402]

102. We need unity

They have the Whitehouse
the House
the Senate
the TV News
the Christo-fascists
the Money

But we have the truth and the ideals that benefit the majority.
Cons zealously troll the net like Bushdrones and try to divide us. I think we should censor and delete them, and try to support each other.

[dhinojosa]

103. No, we need to keep our diversity...

I am not a servant or a follower. We have to be ourselves, because if we are not, we are like them.

Furthermore "I think we should censor and delete them" is not in my Amendment1 loving vocabulary.

HONK!

:hi:

[Individualist]

131. Hear, hear!

:applause: I'm also an individualist, and when individuals who advocate blind loyalty resort to name calling, I use the ignore function.

[cynatnite]

100. To be expected with the variety of personalities here

I've been here a little over a year. During the campaigning last year it got a little too tacky for my taste. I don't like the bashing of the bush kids so I don't take part and ignore those. I ignore those about Laura and the accident she was in ages ago. They're tacky, IMO, so I don't take part.

I don't wish death on any of the bush family, cheney, or rw nutjobs or neocons. I don't celebrate their deaths or even be glad they do die. It's tacky, too.

But that's just me. I ignore those as I do other topics which either don't interest me or those I've already thrown in my two cents.

Sometimes arguments break out and with the different people who come here from all walks of life, with differing points of views and knowledge to offer.

It's also been a great place to learn about activism and what we can do. I write letters, make phone calls and talk to people. Sometimes it seems to help and other times I :banghead:

Someone a week or so ago posted the link to a forum where bushbots and liberals debate. I hung around for about three days and did some posting. While I enjoyed proving them wrong, I got tired of 'libs are this or libs are that'. That was their answer to almost everything.

What drove me away was this statement from one:

'Feminists raising sons are like Nazis raising Jews'.

That forum offered nothing other than pissing contests going back and forth with a lot of flaming going on. Why would I want that when I can get more here? DU has good and bad aspects, but I believe DU offers far more good.

[whatever4]

106. You know too

As more people flock to sites and groups simply because they are anti-BushCo, it's only natural that either accomodations are made for the various differences of opinion in the new, larger group, or, the group fails to act effectively.

Basically, either accept all those running to your side, as valid members because they want to BE on your side, or push them off because they aren't "liberal" enough. As always, free choice in the matter.

[spindoctor]

107. It is getting worse

In recent times I've been called a freeper on at least two occasions (on non-political issues. lol)
I also been called heartless, and I endure frequent comments on the fact that I live in a red state.

It's annoying, but my skin is thicker than that. I don't come here to fight and we are all empowered with an "ignore" option. Use it wisely :)

[dhinojosa]

108. Geez, what a freeper post.....

hehe, just kidding

:hi:

[cynatnite]

109. I've been called freeper, bush apologist and a few others

It happens when a person dissents from the majority on DU. I got called a bush apologist for explaining what a certain kind of pill does that was included in a kit that FEMA accidently sent to LA. :shrug: It's happened more after getting a star for donating to DU and going over the magic 1000 posts. Go figure.

I just let it go and not worry about it. And you are right...ignore works great :)

[Mutley]

112. walldude is right everyone.

I posted something similar to this right after Katrina, and it still holds now. We cannot turn on each other: we are on the SAME SIDE! I personally wouldn't want everyone on this board to hold the same opinions about everything that I do. Would be pretty boring to be here in that case, wouldn't it?

[lildreamer316]

113. Hear hear! kick.

I do think time will weed it out though. Just my OPINION. Hee hee.

[zanne]

115. I've noticed alot of people with right-wing opinions lately.

They post flame-fest material and act surprised when they're opposed. I'm not saying the poster who brought this up is right-wing, but I've noticed alot of it lately.

[Skinner]

117. I'm sure this post will completely ignored. But what the hell, here goes.

The more things change, the more Democratic Underground stays the same. Democratic Underground is not getting dumber or ruder or flamier or kookier or whatever. Democratic Underground is getting bigger.

All of the complaints in this thread are exactly the same complaints we have heard -- literally since day one:

There are too many trolls.
People flame too much.
All the good people are leaving.
We're not as intelligent as we used to be.
There's too much fighting.
There's too much name-calling.
There are too many kooks.
There is too much censorship.
I miss the old days.
There is too much Dem bashing.
There is too much lockstep Dem boot-licking.
Something has changed.
Etc, etc, etc.

I appreciate the fact that people care about Democratic Underground. And anything that will make all of our members think about their behavior and try to be positive DU citizens is a good thing. So, maybe, this thread might have a modest positive effect.

But I have to emphatically disagree with the underlying assumption of this thread, and every other thread like it: That there existed a time in the past when Democratic Underground was significantly "better" in any of these respects than it is now. That's just wrong.

There never was a DU Golden Age. Since the very first day of its existence, this place has always been filled with smart people and stupid people. Polite people and rude people. Oversensitive whiners and over-offensive haters. Group hugs and circular firing squads. Insightful analysis and kooky conspiracy theories.

All the good people have been leaving since January of 2001. And we keep getting new good people to fill their place. There is a natural ebb and flow, a cyclical nature to this place. People come and go. Problems flare up and fizzle out. DU is great when there's lots of news because we've all got a common purpose. It's usually a cesspool of flaming when there's no news, or when Dems are getting our asses kicked in the news, because our sense of common purpose is lost.

And through it all, people long for the mythical DU Golden Age, when the people were nicer and smarter, and there were hardly any trolls or flaming. LOL.

This place had basically no rules at all for the first year-and-a-half of its existence. You could call someone a "flaming mother-fucking asshole" and you wouldn't get your post deleted. We had flame wars all the time, barn-burners that were *way* uglier than the tea-parties we have now. You could post any ridiculous thing you wanted, and we'd let you do it. And that was perfectly fine back when the website was smaller. But the bigger it gets, the more we have to institute rules and enforcement to smooth out the rough edges. It sucks I know, but it seems to happen on just about every discussion forum.

The ratio of crap-to-quality on Democratic Underground is no worse than it ever was, and in many respects it is much better. But the absolute amount of crap is larger -- just like the absolute amount of quality is larger -- because the community is larger.

Here's why I think people will always believe the myth that there once was a DU Golden Age: 1) Because people are just like that, and always think "the grass is greener." And 2) because there is a natural change to perceptions after you spend time here. Allow me to explain.

When you first find Democratic Underground, the reaction is inevitably something like: "HALLELUJAH! I have found a community of like-minded people!" DU seems like a massive buffet of progressive opinion. You are so thrilled by all the good stuff here, you are so thrilled to have found a place unlike any other, that you can't help but feel good about it. It's that place you've been looking for all along. But spend enough time here, and that sense of novelty, of wonderment, of excitement will inevitably fade. You slowly realize that there are both smart people and dumb people here. You slowly realize that there are both nice people and rude people here. Your somewhat naive belief that building up your post count would buy you respect from everyone else turns out to be mistaken. You start to identify with the "who the hell are all these newbies?" crowd, and stop identifying with the newbies. You take the good for granted, and the bad just seems like an annoyance. And furthermore, when you try to lash out against the evil you perceive all around you, the moderators delete your posts. Democratic Underground inevitably loses some of its lustre. Some people get tired of all the bullcrap and leave. It's a normal process. But through it all, Democratic Underground doesn't change very much. Your perceptions change.

It is undeniable that DU is getting bigger, so there is more of the bad stuff. (But remember that there is also more of the good stuff, too.) It is undeniable that our rules are more stringent and there is more censorship than there used to be. (But remember that the point of the censorship -- AKA "moderating" -- is to get rid of the most disruptive stuff.) Overall, Democratic Underground has not changed that much. The percentage of postings that are stupid or rude is still roughly the same as it's always been. And the number of complaints and navel-gazing "what have we become?" threads about Democratic Underground itself stays relatively constant.

A word of advice for everyone reading this, which I'm sure nobody will take. The ignore feature is your friend. Use it. I wish I could.

Anyway, I've talked too long, and I'm sure nobody has even made it this far in my post. If you're still reading, you win a pony.

The good news is that we are always trying to come up with new ideas to encourage quality, and to help visitors separate the good stuff from the bad. We're working on some pretty cool changes right now. But I'll explain them in another thread sometime.

[Coventina]

118. I'll be PMing you shortly Skinner

About the "you know what" I get for reading all the way through your post!

;-)

[southlandshari]

119. THIS POST IS A MUST READ.

:applause:


Thank you, Skinner, for the honest, direct and thoughtful response. As usual. I hope everyone who has posted so far, whatever their comments, will have a chance to read your reply.

[blondeatlast]

120. I WANT MY PONY NOW, SKINNER! "The ignore feature is your friend. Use it.

I wish I could." :rofl:

Love it, guy. I read the whole thing, and you oughta pin it, I swear.

Kudos to you and all involved for putting up with all you do. This is still the premiere political site I've seen.

Kudos too for the amusing, yet tasteful, icons!

[The Magistrate]

121. Well Said, Sir!

And spot on to boot. I arrived in November of '01, as I recall, and can certainly testify to humongous flame wars and bitter exchanges and a great many damned fools and rude critters being present. There were also wonderful and pleasant and wise people, many of whom disagreed with me on a variety of points, and many of whom I am still most happy to have as friends in this place.

[blondeatlast]

123. (Psst--don't forget the pony, sir)... nt

[JohnLocke]

122. Excellent analysis.

[Midlodemocrat]

126. Thanks, Skinner.

The very best people on the internets read DU, as well as the worst. Our challenge as members is to decide with whom we wish to interact.

[RandomKoolzip]

129. Skinner, if I could shake your hand right now, I would.

That was sweet. :thumbsup:

[Mr_Spock]

130. I always wanted a pony. Thanks for putting it all into perspective for us.

I'm sure you won't have time to read all the responses so I'll just give kudos for reminding us where the center is. Thanks :D

[flaminbats]

133. who said this???

what?? who is ignore? why would ignore post such a large blank spot on DU, and then draw so many responses? maybe ignore doesn't know administrators can be categorized into unreadable threads?

hmmmm, perhaps my ignore list should be expanded to include ignore :yoiks:

[Historic NY]

138. Pony......I want a donkey.

Thanks Skinner.....I have friend with a board too...he warns people to wear their seatbelt. I'm still here, think I found a home.

[Rex]

139. Progressive people need progressive servers!

You guys rock! As for the trolls; they taste great dipped in sauce and would not even come here if they didn't KNOW we talk about truth on DU. This is the place to get news from unfiltered news sources around the world. We sometimes fight over the various news sources and links so...can other websites say that? No. Variety is democracy IMO.

:yourock:

[Quixote1818]

140. All the disagreement and arguing is a good thing in my opinion

Just go over to Freerepublic and you will notice that they are all walking in lock step! Their is so little disagreement it's scary! Classic Group think from small minded people!

The fact that DU has so many diverse, independent minds is awesome!

I do with some people would be more tactful and nicer when they disagree with someone. Something that is often lacking in any Internet political discussion forum. We seem to forget that their are real people with feelings on the other side of the monitor.

"Let us treat men and women well; treat them as if they were real. Perhaps they are".

Emerson

[MADem]

142. Where's MY pony???

Great post!

[Wickerman]

145. Would you mind, terribly, sending my pony to my daughter?

She'll get more use out of it.

:rofl:

Excellent post, and yeah, that ignore feature would probably brighten your day, Sir.

[welshTerrier2]

148. great post BUT ...

i really wish you hadn't included this: "You start to identify with the "who the hell are all these newbies?" crowd, and stop identifying with the newbies." ... i hope this statement does not become part of DU's "common wisdom" ...

speaking strictly for myself, i think it's fantastic when "newbies" take a strong stand on something and make their case ... i often worry about DU's "herd instinct" and "group-think" pressures ... newbies keep us honest ... sure, i look for posts from certain posters who are often thought-provoking ... yes, many of us form "DU friendships" with the "old timers" ...

but i'd hate to accept the idea as "common wisdom" that newbies identify with newbies and old timers are somewhat suspicious of newcomers ... when i was new, i formed kind of alliances with those with similar views regardless of how long they'd been here ... as an old timer, i often find myself either encouraging someone new or finding them kind of tagging along with some of my key DU themes ...

i understand that in no way were you encouraging the "stick to your own kind" kind of behavior ... i guess i just would like to think that many of us do NOT behave that way ...

anyway, great post ... i think that your comments about DU's "golden age" are dead on the money ... still, it would be interesting to know more about the changing demographics on DU ...

for example, and i base this on wild speculation and idle hearsay, i think the 2004 elections brought about significant changes in DU's membership ... i think the elections brought far more focus on elections and candidates than we previously had ... the old days seemed to focus more on the 9/11 conspiracy theories, the right-wing media, BCCI, Iran-Contra and the lead-up to the war in Iraq ... now it seems, even after the election, that we see far more threads about candidates and polls (in addition to the old topics) ... and i suspect that the changes in discussion focus, and i'm referring specifically to the GD forums, are paralleled with changes in demographics ... i have no idea what those changes might be ...

[Nothing Without Hope]

153. Thank you, Skinner. I win a pony and got some wise input too.

And thanks for all you do. :yourock:

[spacelady]

154. Utter poetry in motion Skinner, please donate my pony to W

I hope it is a frisky pony that will strike fear in his shrivelled heart and trample him and his agenda under its dainty, yet sharp hooves.

[walldude]

162. So do I get a pony even though I started this thread?

I cannot believe the response this has gotten. I must have struck a nerve. What you say is true and I don't want you to think I was slamming DU or anything... Just a little fustrated thats all. :toast:

[Elidor]

125. Impotent rage plays some part in DU nastiness

We can't lash out at the crazy people running America into the ground, and we have outrage overflow. I think many people here find themselves venting without realizing they're doing it. And often we vent over stupid things that have nothing to do with what actually has us angry.

[northamericancitizen]

132. Skinner, can you send a pony up North ? nt

[MADem]

141. Let it roll off your back

And if they get personal, hit alert.

People are not supposed to personally attack you on this forum, and most, I have found, are nice folk. Every now and again you see a pissing contest, but sometimes those are due to people not understanding that someone was being snarky or sarcastic, and took a comment too seriously.

I agree with your take about the insider fighting WRT candidates--boy, if you happen to say something less than flattering about candidate X to a Candidate X Acolyte, stand by to get singed. I try to keep an attitude that even lousy Democrats can be brought about, if enough of us keep hammering at them. As a group, they beat the GOP hands down.

Best bet is to laugh it off, explain you simply wanted honest debate, and you regret the person got all emotional about it--that often effectively defuses a situation (or they will hate you 'virtually' forever!)...don't take responsibility for someone else's negativity!!!

[YOY]

147. I thought it was from having low posts and being a suspected "Freeper"

I have had posts that I consider to be non-insulting to be deleted after I simply defended myself against someone else's slur (I should have marked their post to be rude but I chose not to.) I have also had people who I agree with 95% go off on me like I was Rush Limbaugh.

But I have seen certain folks here who take arguments personally and forget that we are all on the relatively same side. We're lefties. Pure and simple, most DUers are a wide brush stroke of the left wing.

Considering who we are comprised of and how we are treated by the opposition in addition with a feeling of loss and pain at the current administration's actions that seem to get worse and worse with every week it's no surprise that we are angry.

I mean look at who we are: we're liberals, libertarians, greens, socialists, the fiscally conservative and politically liberal, gays, lesbians, straight, black, white, asian, native, latin, protestant, catholic, eastern orthodox, jew, muslim, atheist, wiccan, pagan, hindu, PETA members, people who can't stand PETA, hell there are even a few disgruntled republicans among us.

Of course we're going to argue, but civility is key and king and what makes us better than Freeperland.

Your call to civility is warranted and I agree. I hope the mods take your message into heart as well.

I think people should also remember that playing "Devil's Advocate" is just fine. There are those of us who use poor evidence and support against those we dislike. Nothing wrong with debunking a little bit of falsehood as long as the mainstay of what you believe in is sunk deeply within facts.

[welshTerrier2]

149. don't see much change ...

i see posts like the ones you're talking about ... and i'm sure you've been around long enough to know that rudeness will always occur in popular public forums ... i make a post about the war in Iraq and how i don't like Kerry's position or Clinton's position or whatever and guess what automatically happens ... that candidate's attack dogs are all over me ... that's actually my biggest criticisms of DU ... "candidate supporters" seem to almost never accept any disagreement or criticism of their candidate ... it must be nice to believe in someone 100% ... i don't think it makes for sincere discussion though ...

but as far as a TREND of increasing rudeness, i guess i just don't see it ... maybe you're just hitting a bad streak because of dumbass posts like the one you made here ... um, sorry ... just kidding ... really ... it was a joke ... well, i thought it was funny ...

as to your overall theme, though, i wish we would all focus on "elevating our dialog" ... bickering on a personal level is generally NOT constructive ... if we're going to argue, even argue with some passion and emotion, it should be focussed on issues and strategy ... on the other hand, perhaps some of the "personal crap" could even be viewed in a positive light ... perhaps some of it is indicative of the commitment we have to our own beliefs ... maybe in some way that's actually a good thing even if the way it manifests itself is sometimes less than productive ...

[Nothing Without Hope]

150. I've much more concerned about the censorship of some subjects at DU

than I am about the occasional screamers and curmudgeons. I don't even bother to alert when somebody posts a screamer in one of my threads, unless, as happened soon after a well-respected DUer died suddenly a few months back, something truly obscene and evil is posted. That is very, very rare thanks to the mods tombstoning such posters. I generally just ignore provocative posts - if they want to start an argument by attacking rather than discussing this effectively shuts them down. If they post again and look like they actually want to have a discussion or exchange information, then that's fine, their input and opinions are welcome. Good debate and opening to other points of view is ESSENTIAL if we are to build a wise, inclusive movement to take back control of our country.

What concerns me more is that some threads that I consider important, with documented information, articles from reputable sources, valuable discussion too often are locked or even "disappeared," apparently because their whole subject matter is taboo. For example, I had a thread based on a New Yorker story on how the powerful AIPAC lobby (involved in American/Israeli relations) was affecting US foreign policy. This was NOT about Palestine, but about the Franklin scandal and the situation with Iraq and Iran. There were more documented articles about this too, and the New Yorker is hardly a sensationalist rag. This thread was first whipped into one of the "holes" - forums where threads cannot be voted upon and most DUers are unaware of the contents - the one on Palestine relations, which it did not involve at all. Then almost all of it was deleted. I promise you, there was no abusive, let alone anti-Semitic language in that thread. Indeed, two of the replies in that thread which simply quoted a published phrase from the respected Middle East authority Juan Cole to the effect that "it is not anti-Semitic to be opposed to the political goals of the AIPAC" were immediately deleted. When I tried to post again on the New Yorker AIPAC/Franklin story, it was disappeared immediately and I got a stiff message from a moderator. Apparently that carefully researched New Yorker story was just deemed taboo. I regard this as blatant censorship, for there was nothing abusive, but DOCUMENTED FACTS that were being removed from sight. A number of us, heartsick, complained about this but got boilerplate replies when we heard anything at all.

That has happened to me more than once, and it is always devastating when it does. When I work hard on a thread now, I always save it in Word before I post it because I don't want hours of work wiped out by censorship. We have no recourse, we just have to do what we can.

In the beginning, threads on the Bush Administration handling of the New Orleans levees and the Katrina aftermath that said that there might be an element other than just plain incompetence involved were attacked and often disappeared, including important threads with extensive documentation for reference and study. Apparently, imagining that there was any element whatsoever of deliberate neglect - even just to discuss and evaluate the bare possibility - was taboo. That restriction seems to have eased a bit now, but important work was lost to censorship in the early days.

I can tell you it is just devastating when you work hard on a thread, it is being enthusiastically received with good discussion, and then it is suddenly "disappeared," not even just locked. But DU is still the best we've got, so for now I keep trying to put those documented threads out there. I have to say, though, that one or more two more hard hits by what I see as arbitrary censorship and it may just be too much for me to take.

[T Town Jake]

152. That's not "censorship" you experienced...

...it's simply this: anti-semitism is not tolerated on this site. And all the wounded faux sobbing in the world will not change that fact.

[Nothing Without Hope]

161. IT WAS NOT ANTI-SEMITISM!!! This was a New Yorker article documenting

specific connections and activities of some of the AIPAC leadership in connection with the specific events and people involved in the Franklin spy scandal and a no-holds-barred push for regime change in Iraq and Iran. It is POLITICS. It doesn't mean that all Israelis or all AIPAC members would have the same opinions, it was about SPECIFIC PEOPLE DOING SPECIFIC THINGS for their own political goals. This was not a smear job, it was documentation in a particular case. Many of the people involved are not Jewish; this is not a religious or ethnic issue.

If all documented research on specific people affiliated with US neocons and the Israeli ultra-hawk Likud faction is censored simply because there is some connection to Israel, that kind of arbitrary, selective censorship is wrong, and I believe, DANGEROUS.

That thread is the only one I ever posted on AIPAC. This wasn't a subject that I had thought about before, but the article was most interesting. I posted on it because I found the New Yorker article important and wanted other people to know about it. I had not realized until then that some Likud members are so closely affiliated with the US neocons, but since then I have come across much more evidence that this is so. I most sincerely hope that wiser heads in the Likud and in the US government come to prevail soon. It is only the violently ultra-hawk factions of both that were the topics of that thread.

This has nothing to do with religion. To plaster a blanket judgment of "anti-Semitic!!!" on ANYTHING remotely critical of ANYONE affiliated with Israel or on reports of documented FACTS supporting such criticism is wrong and profoundly anti-democratic. It is unquestionably censorship, and it opens the way for these extremists (many of them Christians) to push forward with their dangerous agenda of MidEast domination at any cost.

[NYC]

163. There is no monolithic "we".

I suppose that is the primary thing to bear in mind. All sorts of people come here.

[spacelady]

164. What about the Victorian "We"? Or the G.W. "Gotta Wee" Bush "we"

Wee, Wee, Wee all the way home--oh heck, there I go with that asshole pet business again! Meow apologies.

[NYC]

167. Wee Bush

sounds accurate. He has a wee mind.

[Arkana]

173. It's from the same crowd

who thinks we should purge all the Dems in Congress because they didn't go to the anti-war rally in DC.